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LSDMB
LSDMB

A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 4th 2020, 2:07 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
The Book of Genesis spells out an interesting narrative. It begins with man being innocent rather than sinful, though not virtuous either. Man in the Garden of Eden was not a moral agent, Adam and Eve were both lacking in moral awareness and moral responsibility. This all changed when they ate of the fruit of knowledge of Good and Evil. Their eyes were opened, they became aware of both good and evil, and their own vulnerability. With their innocence lost, they were vulnerable to sin, set upon by burden, and tasked to adopt moral responsibility, for both their own lives and for the cultivation of civilization.

What immediately followed was a tale of two individuals, brothers, Cain and Abel. Abel, in faithfulness and humility, bore the weight of his moral responsibility and made the proper sacrifices to God, and God was pleased. Cain shirked this responsibility, then became bitter and envious at the manifest righteousness of his own brother, allowed sin to enter through his door, and murdered his brother. Next we are treated to a tale of two social structures, the righteous family of Noah, and the moral depravity of the surrounding civilization. The latter was engulfed in a flood and destroyed as a consequence of its own sin, while the former preserved culture and nature from the flood within an Ark they built.

The message is clear, that both the individual and the social structures must both be called towards righteousness. And what proceeds next from this instruction is a grave warning against two grave errors antithetical to this mission.

The first of these errors is demonstrated within Noah’s own family. After Noah and his family exited the Ark, Noah grew grapes and made wine, overindulged, and got blackout drunk and passed out naked in his tent. Ham (Noah’s son) in response to this, did not show his father respect and instead sought his humiliation, for Noah had indeed fallen short, and so Ham was cursed. Noah did indeed fall short, for he was a sinner as all people are, and yet… was he not the man who raised Ham? Provided for him? Protected him from the flood within the walls of the arc? In much the same way, our social structures are flawed from the level of our families all the way up to the level of our nation, both past and present, and yet they have done the same for us as Noah had done for Ham. Raised us, provided for us, protected us from a sea of uncertainty and chaos. Should we seek the total humiliation of our family, community, nation, and culture over their flaws? Not one of us has been raised by parents who have not sinned, who have not failed in some way while raising us, and yet the imperfect sacrifices they have provided us are still what our lives have been built upon. This is a fundamental error that falls short of the pursuit of righteousness, for criticism of one’s parents, society, and forefathers is one thing if accompanied by the proper respect and gratitude for what has been given, however I would seldom expect virtue from a child who is neither grateful nor respectful towards their parents. The social structures have offered much to the individual, and if the individual does not tend to that with the proper care and respect, they fall short.

The second of these errors is demonstrated with the Tower of Babel. A utopian vision to reach Heaven by building a tower tall enough to reach it. A vision God shut down pretty much immediately, and for good reason. As tempting as the allure of utopia is, this is also a grave moral error, for in the attempted construction of a perfect society, when the creation of such a structure is attempted, the top becomes too far removed from the bottom. The individual becomes irrelevant, little more than a means to an end or a variable in an equation. When this happens the structure becomes misguided, bloated, and lost in its aims. Had God not put an early end to the Tower of Babel, a couple of things may have happened. It may have reached into space with those ascending it suffocating from a lack of oxygen rather than reaching the gates of Heaven, for the path for an individual heaven lies within their own righteousness in faith, not something that can be manufactured top down from the structures they inhabit, either physical or social. Or more likely, the tower would have collapsed under its own weight, just as all attempted utopian social structures do, as they attempt to take on the burden normally adopted by the individual, and collapse under more weight than they can bear.

What followed from this was God’s covenant with Abraham, and the tale throughout the rest of the Old Testament of God’s relationship with the Hebrew people. A people with a social structure and culture built upon moral tradition and passed down wisdom, from which heroic individuals would emerge with the righteousness to return the favor by guiding their society back on track or further towards the fulfillment of their covenant, with their guidance and teachings being themselves absorbed into the social structure to guide the next generation of individuals towards righteousness. Many times the social structures failed to live up to what was expected of them by God, and many times the heroic individuals fell short and committed grave sins, and yet it was this interplay, this harmony between the individual and the social structures, imperfect but still present, that continued to pull them towards righteousness and a pursuit of God in faith.

I take this day to celebrate the founding of my nation, in no small part because my nation was built upon an understanding of these great truths, as well as an understanding of these fatal errors. The Founding Fathers of the United States founded this nation expecting the provision of liberty from the government, the duty of moral responsibility and virtue from the individual, and a cultural fabric which called both of these things forwards.

It is written by Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence, signed July 4th 1776:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed”
And likewise contained within the US Constitution is a bill of individual rights meant to be held sacrosanct within our governing structures, as well as a range of checks and balances meant to circumscribe the ability of the state to abuse the individual.

Likewise the moral responsibility of the individual and a culture that encourages this is also emphasized in the writings of the founding fathers. For the pursuit of happiness envisioned by the Founding Fathers is not the indulgence of every pleasure and desire, but rather a happiness found in the cultivation of virtue. As written by James Madison:
“There is no maxim in my opinion which is more liable to be misapplied, and which therefore needs elucidation, than the current one that the interest of the majority is the political standard of right and wrong. Taking the word “interest” as synonymous with “ultimate happiness,” in which sense it is qualified with every necessary moral ingredient, the proposition is no doubt true. But taking it in its popular sense, as referring to the immediate augmentation of property and wealth, nothing can be more false.”
And as John Adams said:
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
It is clear that our nation was not only founded upon the securing of liberty for the individual by the hands of the government, but also upon the moral expectation of the individual to uphold and honor what they had been given, and to live in pursuit of virtue and righteousness.

These are the promises, expectations, and values my nation was founded upon, the very things that draw my sincerest respect on this day of commemoration, the celebration of independence and the founding of my country.

Much like the Hebrews, we have not perfectly lived up to this founding promise, as individuals or as a society, for none is without sin except for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Just as the great King David held concubines and had a man sent to his death so he could sleep with his wife, so too did many of the Founding Fathers own slaves, and both were aware of their own sin and hypocrisy, yet both despite their sins have given a great deal to the society that followed them. Much like the Hebrews as a society turning their backs on God, worshipping a golden calf, cursing the mana God sent them, so too have we as a society throughout our history too often turned a blind eye to the injustices that existed within our social structures.

Much like the Hebrews, we have often failed to live up to our solemn duty, as we are all tragically sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God. It is, however, because of this rather than in spite of this that we require the interplay, the harmony, and the mutual responsibility between the individual and the social structures well understood and respected within the founding documents and writings of the United States of America.

Much like the Hebrews, many great men and women have emerged from our heritage as a nation to both honor and respect it, and to pull it into greater embodiment for future generations, each one of them becoming a part of our continued heritage and history.

Dolley Madison, the wife of the then President James Madison, risked her own life in the War of 1812 to safeguard a portrait of George Washington from the burning down of the White House by the British. Though he was not her husband, and not her president at the time, though he and her husband had had their disagreements, she chose to preserve that piece of American heritage from those who would degenerate it and risked her life and safety to do so.

Frederick Douglas, a former slave and free black man, drawing upon the heritage of America, became one of the most influential figures in the abolitionist movement. In his activism, he sought not the humiliation and degradation of American heritage, but instead saw hope in the Declaration of Independence, and cited and admired it in the hope that the promise contained within could be fulfilled for all peoples. He was, much to the chagrin of some of his fellow abolitionists, willing to engage in dialogue with slaveholders, famously responding to his critics with the statement “I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong." In doing this, he not only helped advance the cause of liberty, but demonstrated a level of Christian virtue not often encountered amongst man.

Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant waged a civil war to abolish slavery and reunify our nation, for which many white and black Americans alike spilled blood across our country to achieve, and for which Abraham Lincoln lost his life to assassination. Freedom, purchased with blood, just as freedom from our sins was purchased with the blood of Jesus.

Even still there was much more work to be done in the provision of liberty and justice for all. Martin Luther King Jr., in both his heritage as a Christian and as an American, sought after the  equal rights of black people. In doing so, he did not denigrate the heritage of America, but rather cited the Declaration of Independence as a charter of sound and just principle, referring to it as a great promissory note that he sought the proper fulfillment of. And across the seas, many men fighting under the American flag stormed the beaches of Normandy to fight against the tyranny and genocide enacted by the Nazi regime.

And so when I look back upon America, my nation, my home, I do not cynically see only its sins, or naively see a perfect embodiment of an ideal, but rather I see the history and journey of a nation founded in flawed pursuit of a great ideal, that has journeyed onward to a greater fulfillment of its founding principles in spite of its sins. For even Martin Luther King Jr. and Frederick Douglass did not seek after the utter humiliation and denigration of the heritage and values of the United States of America, but rather saw its great founding promise as something to be admired and properly fulfilled.

I do not seek to act arrogantly as if I have built the house and nation I now stand in and use the sins of my forefathers to deny them the respect and gratitude due for what has been handed down to me. And I do not seek to treat this house, this nation, as a tower to heaven and place an unwavering faith in the institutions I dwell within.

Rather it is because I do not seek to do these things that I seek to honor America. A culture somewhat uniquely defined on the global stage by both liberty and patriotism. The ideal of a mutual and sincere respect between the individual and the social structures, built upon a great understanding of human nature held by the Founding Fathers and recognized as far back as the Book of Genesis.

God Bless America


Last edited by LSDMB on July 5th 2020, 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
HellfireUnit
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 4th 2020, 2:08 pm
America sucks.

May the Satan lead it to ruin.
BigMouthPrick
BigMouthPrick

A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 4th 2020, 3:19 pm
Stopped reading after "Book of Genesis". Could you write a motivational post that doesn't involve abrahamic religion?
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 4th 2020, 7:01 pm
i wonder.. if they lacked the basic knowledge of good and evil, then they couldve done either of those things without even realizing it. now, this is more weird because it makes them seem... idk, like robots. they like sweet things but also dont care if some animal dies a violent death. weird shit, ngl.
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BoD (Away)
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 5th 2020, 7:59 am
Not sure using Cain and Abel (the byproduct of inbreeding and incest) is a good way to make a point.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 5th 2020, 2:33 pm
BoD wrote:Not sure using Cain and Abel (the byproduct of inbreeding and incest) is a good way to make a point.
cain and abel were the by product of incest? wtf did i miss lol and even then, humankind had no sicknesses or diseases that affected them, so incest wouldve caused no harm until the were kicked out of the garden.
LSDMB
LSDMB

A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 5th 2020, 4:13 pm
BoD wrote:Not sure using Cain and Abel (the byproduct of inbreeding and incest) is a good way to make a point.
Ummm... you do realize that Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve's children in the Genesis narrative... right?... both of whom were created by God...?

Not really sure where you're getting the incest angle from. Even taking a hyper-literal interpretation of Genesis, it would not be Cain and Abel's generation, but the following generation that would be a product of incest.


Also you're just jelly you lost that war :>
Latham2000
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 5th 2020, 4:22 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Not to mention, illnesses and diseases weren’t even a thing on Genesis times either.
Latham2000
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 5th 2020, 4:24 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
At least eninn from KMC isn’t here spamming the forum with badly formatted misinformation and propoganda.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 5th 2020, 6:40 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:Not to mention, illnesses and diseases weren’t even a thing on Genesis times either.
yeah exatcly. i said that same shit above
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 6th 2020, 4:56 pm
@LSDMB wrote:
BoD wrote:Not sure using Cain and Abel (the byproduct of inbreeding and incest) is a good way to make a point.
Ummm... you do realize that Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve's children in the Genesis narrative... right?... both of whom were created by God...?

Not really sure where you're getting the incest angle from. Even taking a hyper-literal interpretation of Genesis, it would not be Cain and Abel's generation, but the following generation that would be a product of incest.


Also you're just jelly you lost that war A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble 3344068304

Cains wife was never present in the garden. There were people outside of the garden as Cain also notes.

"Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is greater than I can bear!
Today you have driven me away from the soil, and I shall be hidden from your face; I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and anyone who meets me may kill me."

"Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him."

Cain also builds a city, not possible with only a few people alive:

"Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch; and he built a city, and named it Enoch after his son Enoch."

Incest also was not allowed according to Mosaic law, it was forbidden.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 6th 2020, 5:07 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:America sucks.

May the Satan lead it to ruin.

The leaders suck but the everyday people are good I feel like.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 6th 2020, 5:19 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i wonder.. if they lacked the basic knowledge of good and evil, then they couldve done either of those things without even realizing it. now, this is more weird because it makes them seem... idk, like robots. they like sweet things but also dont care if some animal dies a violent death. weird shit, ngl.

They lacked the basic knowledge of evil only (not good) because they were created inherently good by God (in God's image). The serpent was the most intelligent being in the garden and it was able to deceive them into committing sin because he offered to show them evil so that they would know the difference between good and evil like God, however, they sinned in the process because they weren't supposed to do evil.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 6th 2020, 5:58 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i wonder.. if they lacked the basic knowledge of good and evil, then they couldve done either of those things without even realizing it. now, this is more weird because it makes them seem... idk, like robots. they like sweet things but also dont care if some animal dies a violent death. weird shit, ngl.

They lacked the basic knowledge of evil only (not good) because they were created inherently good by God (in God's image). The serpent was the most intelligent being in the garden and it was able to deceive them into committing sin because he offered to show them evil so that they would know the difference between good and evil like God, however, they sinned in the process because they weren't supposed to do evil.
it actually only fooled Eve. Adam was an unknown amount of years/days/weeks/etc olders than Eve and was likely smarter because of that, so he didnt fall for the serpent's lies. He was more guilty than Eve because of that.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 6th 2020, 6:00 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:
@LSDMB wrote:
BoD wrote:Not sure using Cain and Abel (the byproduct of inbreeding and incest) is a good way to make a point.
Ummm... you do realize that Cain and Abel were Adam and Eve's children in the Genesis narrative... right?... both of whom were created by God...?

Not really sure where you're getting the incest angle from. Even taking a hyper-literal interpretation of Genesis, it would not be Cain and Abel's generation, but the following generation that would be a product of incest.


Also you're just jelly you lost that war A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble 3344068304

Cains wife was never present in the garden. There were people outside of the garden as Cain also notes.

"Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is greater than I can bear!
Today you have driven me away from the soil, and I shall be hidden from your face; I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and anyone who meets me may kill me."

"Then the LORD said to him, "Not so! Whoever kills Cain will suffer a sevenfold vengeance." And the LORD put a mark on Cain, so that no one who came upon him would kill him."

Cain also builds a city, not possible with only a few people alive:

"Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch; and he built a city, and named it Enoch after his son Enoch."

Incest also was not allowed according to Mosaic law, it was forbidden.
Mosaic law did not exist obviously. And in fact, the reason Cain even killed Abel was because they were trying to decide who would become their sister's husband. Cain lost the 'competition' they had (offering to God, Abel's was decreeed better by God, so he won) and blah blah blah u know how it ends.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 6th 2020, 7:14 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd

It fooled both of them. Adam and Eve both eat from the tree, but you are right that the serpent only deceived Eve directly but if it wasn't for the serpent Adam wouldn't of ate from it.
Mosaic law did not exist obviously.
But the OT makes it clear that the Mosaic Law came from God. If god did not allow it why would he allow it to happen here? why the change of heart? For instance, the "do not kill commandment" didn't exist during this time period, written down, but God still punished Cain for killing Abel. The laws always existed but were not written down till later.
And in fact, the reason Cain even killed Abel was because they were trying to decide who would become their sister's husband
No scripture ever says this. Cain killed Abel because Abel gave God a better offering and Cain was mad over it.

Edit: Ham committed incest with his mother and conceived Canaan and God saw this as a sin. Incest was always prohibited by God even before Mosaic law existed, or was written down.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 6th 2020, 8:15 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd

It fooled both of them. Adam and Eve both eat from the tree, but you are right that the serpent only deceived Eve directly but if it wasn't for the serpent Adam wouldn't of ate from it.
Mosaic law did not exist obviously.
But the OT makes it clear that the Mosaic Law came from God. If god did not allow it why would he allow it to happen here? why the change of heart? For instance, the "do not kill commandment" didn't exist during this time period, written down, but God still punished Cain for killing Abel. The laws always existed but were not written down till later.
And in fact, the reason Cain even killed Abel was because they were trying to decide who would become their sister's husband
No scripture ever says this. Cain killed Abel because Abel gave God a better offering and Cain was mad over it.

Edit: Ham committed incest with his mother and conceived Canaan and God saw this as a sin. Incest was always prohibited by God even before Mosaic law existed, or was written down.
that last part, it was taught by a pastor (the marriage part) and i kinda trust him tbh. he studied his shit lol
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble Empty Re: A Tribute to America in a Time of Trouble

on July 6th 2020, 8:30 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@SnowxElf wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd

It fooled both of them. Adam and Eve both eat from the tree, but you are right that the serpent only deceived Eve directly but if it wasn't for the serpent Adam wouldn't of ate from it.
Mosaic law did not exist obviously.
But the OT makes it clear that the Mosaic Law came from God. If god did not allow it why would he allow it to happen here? why the change of heart? For instance, the "do not kill commandment" didn't exist during this time period, written down, but God still punished Cain for killing Abel. The laws always existed but were not written down till later.
And in fact, the reason Cain even killed Abel was because they were trying to decide who would become their sister's husband
No scripture ever says this. Cain killed Abel because Abel gave God a better offering and Cain was mad over it.

Edit: Ham committed incest with his mother and conceived Canaan and God saw this as a sin. Incest was always prohibited by God even before Mosaic law existed, or was written down.
that last part, it was taught by a pastor (the marriage part) and i kinda trust him tbh. he studied his shit lol

Far enough, this is just my interpretation. 

Also, I want to say that Canaan may of actually been born already when Ham committed incest with his mother.
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