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AlexSerp
AlexSerp

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:38 pm
All-out.
Bergmar
Bergmar

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:00 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Nihilus Prime>>>>>>>>>>>Nyriss>Nihilus Weakened
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:10 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Nihilus stomps her. She doesn't even have drain resistance
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:59 am
Nihilus wins in less than a oneshot
The Merchant
The Merchant

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:33 am
Nihilus eats.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:59 am
@The Merchant wrote:Nihilus eats.

Appetizer
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:52 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Even though I think that Nihilius win, I think this isn't at all a stomp.
Just remember that Nyriss was able to defeat both Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge which are fighters of similar skills and force power.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:18 pm
@xolthol wrote:Even though I think that Nihilius win, I think this isn't at all a stomp.
Just remember that Nyriss was able to defeat both Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge which are fighters of similar skills and force power.

Nyriss was significantly amped while Meetra was weakened by the Dromund Kass nexus but a Telos starved Nihilus dominated an unhindered Meetra and her 2 companions with a gesture. Not to mention his TK feat and Nyriss not even having Force Drain. Even after Nihilus was severely weakened after attempting to Drain Meetra he was considered too powerful for the team. Prime Nihilus would annihilate Nyriss tbh and this isn't even taking into account his Drain.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:00 pm
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@xolthol wrote:Even though I think that Nihilius win, I think this isn't at all a stomp.
Just remember that Nyriss was able to defeat both Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge which are fighters of similar skills and force power.

Nyriss was significantly amped while Meetra was weakened by the Dromund Kass nexus but a Telos starved Nihilus dominated an unhindered Meetra and her 2 companions with a gesture. Not to mention his TK feat and Nyriss not even having Force Drain. Even after Nihilus was severely weakened after attempting to Drain Meetra he was considered too powerful for the team. Prime Nihilus would annihilate Nyriss tbh and this isn't even taking into account his Drain.

I agree that Nihilus drain COULD be an hax that give him an easy win. However because this ability seems pretty nebulous to me I'm not 100% sure that he can use it to OS a powerful force user.

Meetra Surik have been able to defeat Darth Traya on a really powerful DS Nexus after facing a bunch of ennemy in the Trayus academy. Thus except if you are claiming that Traya is an inapt fighter, we can agree on the fact that the Jedi Exile know how to face powerful ennemy massively amped.

In addition to this, you seems to forget that Lord Scourge is in the same league than Meetra and was absolutely crushed by Nyriss to (both Scourge and Nyriss were amped by the DS nexus). 

Last but not least, when Meetra faced Telos Starved Nihilus she was hindered. Just remember that she had faced an army of ennemy in order to reach Nihilus. So it is pretty obvious that she wasn't in her prime condition.

To sum up we have to compare:

Nyriss(amped) ragdolling both Meetra(hindered) and Scourge(amp)

Nihilus(hindered) ragdolling both Meetra(hindered) and Visa Marr(also hindered). 

To my point what Nyriss achieve is clearly impressive enough for her not being stomp by Nihilus (whitout taking into account the Drain).
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:57 pm
@xolthol

”I agree that Nihilus drain COULD be an hax that give him an easy win. However because this ability seems pretty nebulous to me I'm not 100% sure that he can use it to OS a powerful force user"

Honestly, I am not aware of any evidence of Nihilus not being able to use his Force Drain on ‘powerful force users’. His drain technique is described multiple times as a way of devouring Force connections and Force energies. No superiority over force users being required or anything like that is ever mentioned. The idea that Nihilus can’t use his technique on powerful force users has simply been nothing but baseless speculation by some people and is not backed up by any evidence. I mean he can literally devour entire planets with his Force Drain which goes to show how prominent and powerful his Drain is. As a matter of fact, Nihilus becomes more powerful himself when he is surrounded by more powerful force users anyways.

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force . . . Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger. They feed, and grow stronger, when they are near Force Sensitives. The stronger their prey is in the Force, the deadlier they become."

-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


”Meetra Surik have been able to defeat Darth Traya on a really powerful DS Nexus after facing a bunch of ennemy in the Trayus academy. Thus except if you are claiming that Traya is an inapt fighter, we can agree on the fact that the Jedi Exile know how to face powerful ennemy massively amped.”

The fact that Meetra defeated Traya on a very powerful DS Nexus doesn’t mean that ‘the Jedi Exile know how to face powerful ennemy massively amped.’ Lol. It simply goes to show how powerful Meetra is herself. There isn’t a way to ‘know how to face powerful enemy massively amped’. This simply goes to show the superiority Meetra had over Traya and how much more powerful Meetra was.

"In addition to this, you seems to forget that Lord Scourge is in the same league than Meetra and was absolutely crushed by Nyriss to (both Scourge and Nyriss were amped by the DS nexus). "

Scourge is not in the same league as Meetra. Meetra is solidly more powerful than him if not significantly.

"Last but not least, when Meetra faced Telos Starved Nihilus she was hindered. Just remember that she had faced an army of ennemy in order to reach Nihilus. So it is pretty obvious that she wasn't in her prime condition."

How was Meetra hindered? What ‘army’ did she face that would have made her hindered? From what I recall, she simply faced a bunch of Sith troopers which is pretty much insignificant. Even then, this would not have ‘hindered’ her because she had breaks in between for example when she spoke to Tobin on the ship. She even gathered up her powers and got prepared before entering Nihilus’s chamber and directly confronted Nihilus (after all those Sith troopers). As a matter of fact, any ‘hinder-ness’ you are claiming here is entirely insignificant and absolutely cannot be compared to the hinder-ness Meetra had when on the very powerful Dark Side nexus of Malachor V when she fought Kreia or the hinder-ness Meetra had when confronting Nyriss on Dromund Kaas. Malachor’s Dark Side nexus was so powerful it was literally able to shape the entire planet and then you are trying to compare the hinder-ness of such a powerful Nexus to the supposed ‘hinder-ness’ Meetra had on the Ravager because she fought a bunch of insignificant Sith troopers. An entirely invalid comparison. In addition to all this, Nihilus was Telos starved before the fight and was then weakened twice during the fight. I don’t see how the ‘hinder-ness’ you are claiming is at all significant regardless of which angle you look at it from. The supposed ‘hinder-ness’ (which doesn’t exist anyways) is definitely not comparable to any Dark Side nexus hinder-ness (Dromund Kaas or Malachor) and it is not comparable to the hinder-ness Nihilus was in during the fight. To claim that Meetra was hindered ,because she fought a bunch of Sith troopers, on a comparable level of the hinder-ness of a Dark Side nexus such as Dromund Kaas is absurd.

"Nyriss(amped) ragdolling both Meetra(hindered) and Scourge(amp)"

Nihilus(hindered) ragdolling both Meetra(hindered) and Visa Marr(also hindered). "

An amped Nyriss ragdolled a significantly hindered Meetra with an amped Scourge.

A significantly hindered Nihilus ragolled a non-hindered Meetra (who, whilst significantly hindered, was able to defeat a significantly amped Kreia) and her team. 

Nyriss doesn’t have anything even comparable to Nihilus’s TK feat.
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:48 pm
Nyriss gets drained.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:52 am
Either way
Seturna
Seturna
Level One
Level One

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:22 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Convincing case made by Nihilus, Nyriss wins.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:41 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Darth Nihilus

Honestly, I am not aware of any evidence of Nihilus not being able to use his Force Drain on ‘powerful force users’. His drain technique is described multiple times as a way of devouring Force connections and Force energies. No superiority over force users being required or anything like that is ever mentioned. The idea that Nihilus can’t use his technique on powerful force users has simply been nothing but baseless speculation by some people and is not backed up by any evidence. I mean he can literally devour entire planets with his Force Drain which goes to show how prominent and powerful his Drain is.

Nihilus' drain isn't something unique in the star wars mytho:
"These Sith we face... they have learned how to do this. It is a technique that has been lost for some time, not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. ."" (KOTOR 2)

This technic was used by all his sect of assasins and he only mastered it to his most powerful expression:
"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did."" (KOTOR 2)

Thus except if you claim that Force Drain is a power this cannot be countered by anything you should agree on the fact that there is a possibility to counter it. At the very least by force users of similar or even greater power than the one using Force Drain.
In addition to this, we know that there exist technics that explicitly protects against drain attack. This is seen in the event around the Dark Reaper in the Clone Wars [source] . Se we know that at least the jedi discover a way to protect themself against drain. Knowing that drain is a sith technic it is more than plausible to think that sith could also discover a similar power.

Based on all of this evidence and deduction, I hope that you understand why I'm not so sure that Nihilus could OS Nyriss.

As a matter of fact, Nihilus becomes more powerful himself when he is surrounded by more powerful force users anyways.

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force . . . Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger. They feed, and grow stronger, when they are near Force Sensitives. The stronger their prey is in the Force, the deadlier they become."

-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

Even if we follow your interpretation of the quote, you have absolutely no idea to which extend he is amped by the presence of powerful force users. Thus this amp isn't reliable at all.
However we can interpret this quote in another way that seems more logic. When Kreia said : "they feed, and grow stronger, when they are near Force sensitives." this can be understand as: when they are near other force users, they drain them [feed] and because of this become stronger  and not as : when they are near other force users, they become stronger because of the proximity of the other force users. Therefore if you follow my interpretation being near someone who can resist drain won't make you stronger.

The fact that Meetra defeated Traya on a very powerful DS Nexus doesn’t mean that ‘the Jedi Exile know how to face powerful ennemy massively amped.’ Lol. It simply goes to show how powerful Meetra is herself. There isn’t a way to ‘know how to face powerful enemy massively amped’. This simply goes to show the superiority Meetra had over Traya and how much more powerful Meetra was.

This is absolutely false. You just forge this precise quote: "Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat". (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)
This clearly show that the only thing that allow Meetra Surik to defeat Traya despite: (1) being less powerful, (2) being on an insanely strong DS nexus, (3) being exhausted after facing waves of the elites siths assasins on Malachor V which is itself a very powerful nexus, (4) defeating darth Sion; the very thing that allow her to defeat Traya is her sheer skill which isn't at all link to her power in the force therefore being usable even on Dromund Kaas while facing Nyriss.

Scourge is not in the same league as Meetra. Meetra is solidly more powerful than him if not significantly.

Nothing allow you to substantiate this claim. In contrast I have some quote that seems to proove that they are in the same league of power:

Part of him wanted to leap into the fray: battling this Jedi would be a true test of his skills. He didn’t know which of them would prove the stronger, but he was intrigued by the challenge (SWTOR REVAN)


“You’re lying,” she said with a disbelieving shake of her head. “You’re afraid to face me. You’ll say anything to avoid a fight.”
“Do I seem afraid to you?”
“No,” she admitted
. “You seem strangely calm.”
(SWTOR REVAN)

How was Meetra hindered? What ‘army’ did she face that would have made her hindered? From what I recall, she simply faced a bunch of Sith troopers which is pretty much insignificant. Even then, this would not have ‘hindered’ her because she had breaks in between for example when she spoke to Tobin on the ship. She even gathered up her powers and got prepared before entering Nihilus’s chamber and directly confronted Nihilus (after all those Sith troopers). As a matter of fact, any ‘hinder-ness’ you are claiming here is entirely insignificant and absolutely cannot be compared to the hinder-ness Meetra had when on the very powerful Dark Side nexus of Malachor V when she fought Kreia or the hinder-ness Meetra had when confronting Nyriss on Dromund Kaas. Malachor’s Dark Side nexus was so powerful it was literally able to shape the entire planet and then you are trying to compare the hinder-ness of such a powerful Nexus to the supposed ‘hinder-ness’ Meetra had on the Ravager because she fought a bunch of insignificant Sith troopers. An entirely invalid comparison. In addition to all this, Nihilus was Telos starved before the fight and was then weakened twice during the fight. I don’t see how the ‘hinder-ness’ you are claiming is at all significant regardless of which angle you look at it from. The supposed ‘hinder-ness’ (which doesn’t exist anyways) is definitely not comparable to any Dark Side nexus hinder-ness (Dromund Kaas or Malachor) and it is not comparable to the hinder-ness Nihilus was in during the fight. To claim that Meetra was hindered ,because she fought a bunch of Sith troopers, on a comparable level of the hinder-ness of a Dark Side nexus such as Dromund Kaas is absurd.

First I don't know why you are using the Malachor V fight as a reference here because I never try to draw a comparison between Meetra facing Nihilus on Telos and Meetra facing Kreia on Malachor V. I only use her fight against Traya as a showing of her skills.

You want to know what she faced on the Ravager. Here are the quotes:

Placing the cores won't be easy thanks to the hordes of Sith commandos and officers in your way.

The Lord of Hunger is protected by several chambers full of Dark Jedi and Sith heavy troopers.
(Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide)

For the "gathering your strength" part you seems to forget that one of your option is to say: "I am ready. Let's end this" clearly showing that she didn't need to gather her strenght to face Nihilus thus being hindered.

As for the hinderance obviously this isn't as impactfull as a being on a really powerfull DS nexus. However, facing hordes of ennemy must have an impact on your force reserve. As a result you aren't in your prime when facing an opponent who didn't draw on his force reserve just before the fight.

In addition I can return to you the critics, can you precisely quantify (by any possible means) the gap of powr between a prime Nihilus and Telos-starved Nihilus? Or at the very least can you prove that there is a large gap between them?

Nyriss doesn’t have anything even comparable to Nihilus’s TK feat.
You are making a huge logical error here: it is not because you don't do something that you cannot do it. In addition we haven't many source material for Nyriss while comparing to Nihilus so this isn't relevant at all.
If we try to compare two characters we must make a comparison not just throw random feats for each side.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:02 pm
Xolthol ragdolling
Geistalt
Geistalt

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:14 pm
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@xolthol wrote:Even though I think that Nihilius win, I think this isn't at all a stomp.
Just remember that Nyriss was able to defeat both Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge which are fighters of similar skills and force power.

Nyriss was significantly amped while Meetra was weakened by the Dromund Kass nexus but a Telos starved Nihilus dominated an unhindered Meetra and her 2 companions with a gesture. Not to mention his TK feat and Nyriss not even having Force Drain. Even after Nihilus was severely weakened after attempting to Drain Meetra he was considered too powerful for the team. Prime Nihilus would annihilate Nyriss tbh and this isn't even taking into account his Drain.
Believing Meetra is stronger than Nyriss on neutral ground would require you to believe she was half as strong as she would normally be on Dromund Kaas, and that novel Scourge is only a fraction (less than half) as powerful as she is on neutral ground.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:29 am
@xolthol

“Nihilus' drain isn't something unique in the star wars mytho:

"These Sith we face... they have learned how to do this. It is a technique that has been lost for some time, not seen in the days since the ancient Sith." (KOTOR 2)

This technic was used by all his sect of assasins and he only mastered it to his most powerful expression:

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time. And that is why they - and their techniques - must be wiped out. No one again must experience and learn what her master did."" (KOTOR 2)

Thus except if you claim that Force Drain is a power this cannot be countered by anything you should agree on the fact that there is a possibility to counter it. At the very least by force users of similar or even greater power than the one using Force Drain.”

I don’t really know why you even mentioned the above when none of it supports your claim in that Nihilus’s Force Drain can be resisted by being a ‘powerful force user’. None of the quotes you used support your claim in anyway. Not only that, but you even missed out other information, namely:

“These Sith we face... they have learned how to do this. It is a technique that has been lost for some time, not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other Force Sensitives - and at the highest pinnacle of power, use it to consume anything that lives.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

I never even claimed that Nihilus’s Force Drain can never be resisted in anyway but rather that it cannot be resisted by simply being a ‘power Force user’, which is what you claimed earlier. So, all of the above is irrelevant to your claim and then you randomly jumped to the conclusion thatAt the very least by force users of similar or even greater power than the one using Force Drain.” which was not supported by anything you said and seems like a baseless conclusion to be honest.

“In addition to this, we know that there exist technics that explicitly protects against drain attack. This is seen in the event around the Dark Reaper in the Clone Wars [source]  . Se we know that at least the jedi discover a way to protect themself against drain. Knowing that drain is a sith technic it is more than plausible to think that sith could also discover a similar power.

Based on all of this evidence and deduction, I hope that you understand why I'm not so sure that Nihilus could OS Nyriss.”

Again, I never claimed that Nihilus’s technique cannot be countered in anyway so I don’t really see why you are arguing this in the first place since it has nothing to do with your claim that Nihilus’s drain can be countered by simply being a ‘powerful force user’. As a matter of fact, the Dark Reaper events is direct evidence that it cannot be resisted by simply being a ‘powerful force user’ and actually contradicts your claim. During the Dark Reaper events, there were some of the most powerful Force users in history, such as Yoda and Mace Windu for example. Yet despite this, it was only Anakin that was mentioned to be able to take on the Dark Reaper and destroy it. He was the only one capable of doing that and specifically because he was taught Ulic’s technique and not because he was a ‘powerful force user’ otherwise Yoda or Windu would have been able to do so. The fact that Yoda and Windu, despite being extremely powerful Force users, were not able to take on the Reaper directly contradicts your claim and as a matter of fact shows that Nihilus’s technique cannot be simply resisted by being ‘powerful’. Keep in mind the Reaper’s drain is even weaker than Nihilus’s drain since the Reaper was only capable of draining Moons while Nihilus was able to drain entire planets.

I think this should make it clear that Nyriss cannot resist Nihilus’s drain by simply being ‘powerful’.

”Even if we follow your interpretation of the quote, you have absolutely no idea to which extend he is amped by the presence of powerful force users. Thus this amp isn't reliable at all.However we can interpret this quote in another way that seems more logic. When Kreia said : "they feed, and grow stronger, when they are near Force sensitives." this can be understand as: when they are near other force users, they drain them [feed] and because of this become stronger  and not as : when they are near other force users, they become stronger because of the proximity of the other force users. Therefore if you follow my interpretation being near someone who can resist drain won't make you stronger.”

I entirely agree with you that we cannot quantify the amp by the presence of powerful force users. However, I don’t agree with your interpretation. The Sith Assassins were never able to drain Meetra’s companions and yet despite this they were still mentioned to becoming stronger the closer they got to Force sensitives. Also ,correct me if I am wrong about this, but the Sith Assassins were weaker at the beginning of KOTOR 2 (not just from a game’s perspective but also the lore) when Meetra and Kreia were much weaker Force users but then the Sith Assassins became more powerful when Meetra and Kreia became more powerful. Yet, we know for a fact that the Sith Assassins never drained Meetra or Kreia. I don’t think we have ever seen any Sith Assassins drain a Force user and so the Sith Assassins were never potent enough in Nihilus’s technique to drain a user of the Force as far as I know. To elaborate more on my interpretation, consider the following as well:

"His power is great, and it comes from hunger. He is a wound in the Force, more presence than flesh, and in his wake life dies, sacrificing itself to his hunger."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)
 
"And those who feel the Force strongly are beacons to his hunger. My people, my planet, would have been attacked in time, it was inevitable, yet we could do nothing about it."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

They draw upon the connections in the Force, and devour it. That is why they are drawn to Jedi, why it is easy for them to find where they gather - because it is like the smell of blood to them. And they can draw upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

The first quote talks about how Nihilus’s power is mainly derived from hunger. The second one mentions that strong Force users act as ‘beacons’ or signals to his hunger making it easier for Nihilus to find those users (hence Visas’s planet). The last quote talks about how the Sith Assassins get ‘drawn to Jedi’ (in support of the second quote) and how it is like ‘the smell of blood to them’. It seems to me that the closer Nihilus/Sith Assassins are to a Force user, the hungrier they become and therefore the more powerful they get (where the power comes from the hunger). Think of it like vampires and blood (hence the ‘smell of blood to them’ reference). The closer vampires are to the source of blood, they hungrier and more vicious they become for it and the easier it is for them to smell and detect it. Note this does not mean that the more starved Nihilus is, the more powerful he gets in a similar way that a vampire won’t become stronger the more starved of blood they are but rather that Nihilus’s amp near Force sensitives becomes greater the more starved he is.


Regardless, the 'amp' is not even important for the sake of this debate of Nihilus vs Nyriss anyways.

"This is absolutely false. You just forge this precise quote: "Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat". (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia)This clearly show that the only thing that allow Meetra Surik to defeat Traya despite: (1) being less powerful, (2) being on an insanely strong DS nexus, (3) being exhausted after facing waves of the elites siths assasins on Malachor V which is itself a very powerful nexus, (4) defeating darth Sion; the very thing that allow her to defeat Traya is her sheer skill which isn't at all link to her power in the force therefore being usable even on Dromund Kaas while facing Nyriss.”

My interpretation of the above quote is that the Amped Traya was more powerful than the hindered Exile (and yet the Exile still managed to defeat her in combat) and not that base Traya was more powerful than base Exile. That seems a lot more logical than base Exile being weaker than base Traya and then for Traya to still lose to Meetra in the center of a Dark Side nexus such as Malachor V where it is most concentrated in dark energies. This isn’t even relevant since Meetra being more skilled than Traya does not make Meetra more skilled than Nyriss. Nyriss and Traya do not necessarily have the same level of skill. So even if I take your interpretation, I don’t see how this would show that Nyriss wouldn’t get rag-dolled by Nihilus. The more skilled you claim Meetra to be, the more Nihilus and Nyriss get scaled off her. So, it changes nothing to the Nihilus and Nyriss debate. The truth of the matter is that a Telos starved Nihilus who was not amped by any Dark Side nexus and weakened twice again ragdolled an unhindered Meetra and her team while an amped Nyriss ragolled a hindered Meetra and amped Scourge. Just because Meetra defeated an amped Kreia that does not mean she knows of some magical ‘way’ to defeat someone under those circumstances. It simply means Meetra’s skill more than compensated for the gap in power between her and amped Kreia specifically and it is simply a plus to Meetra’s skill. This simply makes Nihilus and Nyriss more impressive.

"Nothing allow you to substantiate this claim. In contrast I have some quote that seems to proove that they are in the same league of power:

Part of him wanted to leap into the fray: battling this Jedi would be a true test of his skills. He didn’t know which of them would prove the stronger, but he was intrigued by the challenge (SWTOR REVAN)

“You’re lying,” she said with a disbelieving shake of her head. “You’re afraid to face me. You’ll say anything to avoid a fight.”
“Do I seem afraid to you?”
“No,” she admitted
. “You seem strangely calm.”
 (SWTOR REVAN)”

You seem to forget that this is an amped Scourge against a hindered Meetra on Dromund Kaas and this is even from Scourge’s perspective himself. A hindered Meetra is on the same level as an amped Scourge and this is also evident in how both of them took down 2 imperial guards in around the same time in the Emperor’s throne room. However, base Meetra would be more powerful than base Scourge and her Malachor feats alone support this. Your second quote does not support your claim and you even left out other bits of it where it explains why Scourge was not afraid and ‘strangely calm’:

“You’re lying,” she said with a disbelieving shake of her head. “You’re afraid to face me. You’ll say anything to avoid a fight.”

“Do I seem afraid to you?”


“No,” she admitted
. “You seem strangely calm.”

 
That is because I finally understand what Revan meant. He wants us to unite against a common foe.”


"For the "gathering your strength" part you seems to forget that one of your option is to say: "I am ready. Let's end this" clearly showing that she didn't need to gather her strenght to face Nihilus thus being hindered."

What?! This is clearly showing that Meetra had already gathered her strength and is in fact not hindered/exhausted from fighting Sith Troopers and Dark Jedi. This is a direct contradiction to your claim. The ‘I am ready’ means that Meetra was already at her strength and didn’t need time to recover and therefore not hindered. Otherwise, you would have chosen the option ‘Give me a moment to recover my strength, then.’ The second option even makes it every clear that Meetra needed to recover her strength before going in and thus her being ‘ready’ means that she had already recovered that strength. This means 2 scenarios. Either A) Meetra did not need to recover her strength because she was already at her strength and not exhausted and therefore was ‘ready’ or B) Meetra was exhausted and so took a moment to recover her strength before going in. Meetra entirely gathered her strength before going into Nihilus’s chamber and so your ‘hinder-ness’ claims are entirely invalid and incorrect and this has been made very clear in the lore. If Meetra was hindered, as you are claiming, then she would have taken a moment to recover that strength, which is exactly what is mentioned by the second option. She even had 2 relatively powerful companions to help her. You honestly have no case here.


"As for the hinderance obviously this isn't as impactfull as a being on a really powerfull DS nexus. However, facing hordes of ennemy must have an impact on your force reserve. As a result you aren't in your prime when facing an opponent who didn't draw on his force reserve just before the fight."

So you agree that your ‘hinder-ness’ claims, which come from Meetra being exhausted from fighting hordes of enemies, are insignificant to the hinder-ness Meetra had and the amp Nyriss had on Dromund Kaas? So why did you even bother mentioning it to be honest, despite it being entirely incorrect anyways? Nyriss was at a huge advantage to Meetra and Nihilus was at a huge disadvantage to Meetra.

”In addition I can return to you the critics, can you precisely quantify (by any possible means) the gap of powr between a prime Nihilus and Telos-starved Nihilus? Or at the very least can you prove that there is a large gap between them?”

"If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station, he will cleanse it of life. Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station, and the life of the planet, will sustain him a while longer. And if there are no Jedi below, he will have no other choice."

― Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"The Master suffers... If he can not feed, then the hunger begins to consume him. The planet Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain himself a while longer.

- Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords

 
"[Kreia] spoke of the Jedi academy here on Telos...and my Master was forced to come here."

- Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)


”You are making a huge logical error here: it is not because you don't do something that you cannot do it. In addition we haven't many source material for Nyriss while comparing to Nihilus so this isn't relevant at all.
If we try to compare two characters we must make a comparison not just throw random feats for each side"

This isn’t a ‘random feat’ though otherwise any feat that a character has and another doesn't would be considered random lol. This shows how powerful Nihilus is as a Force user and it is directly applicable in combat. Of course Nyriss does not have as many source material as Nihilus. This means we don’t have enough proof/feats to put her on the same level as Nihilus and until such feats/proof comes up, Nihilus is superior to her. Nyriss simply does not have the feats to back her up to be on the same level as Nihilus. Whether that is due to source material or not is irrelevant. The truth is this is a fictional world and so of course some characters will have more material than others and in many cases we can never actually tell who would win in a fight. We can only work with what we have. And Nyriss has nothing for her to support her being on the same level as Nihilus. No proof means we cannot make that claim, regardless for the reason of why there is no proof. Similarly, Nihilus has way less material than many other characters and yet some of them could defeat him.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:32 am
@Geistalt wrote:
Believing Meetra is stronger than Nyriss on neutral ground would require you to believe she was half as strong as she would normally be on Dromund Kaas, and that novel Scourge is only a fraction (less than half) as powerful as she is on neutral ground.

I never claimed Meetra is stronger than Nyriss lol.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:02 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Geistalt wrote:
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@xolthol wrote:Even though I think that Nihilius win, I think this isn't at all a stomp.
Just remember that Nyriss was able to defeat both Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge which are fighters of similar skills and force power.

Nyriss was significantly amped while Meetra was weakened by the Dromund Kass nexus but a Telos starved Nihilus dominated an unhindered Meetra and her 2 companions with a gesture. Not to mention his TK feat and Nyriss not even having Force Drain. Even after Nihilus was severely weakened after attempting to Drain Meetra he was considered too powerful for the team. Prime Nihilus would annihilate Nyriss tbh and this isn't even taking into account his Drain.
Believing Meetra is stronger than Nyriss on neutral ground would require you to believe she was half as strong as she would normally be on Dromund Kaas, and that novel Scourge is only a fraction (less than half) as powerful as she is on neutral ground.

Lord Scourge was demonstratably completely out of his league against Darth Nyriss. This was blatant every time he tried to get involved. The Exile comparatively was able to hold her ground in dueling skill and absorbed the majority of Nyriss' Force lightning attack with a mere reactive Force shield.

The Exile was not only hindered by a nexus that was specifically created by rituals but a nexus that thousands of years of degradation later caused Kyle Katarn to turn to the dark side and completely blocked Mara Jade's ability to use the light side of the Force. Then by Fate of the Jedi caused Ben Skywalker a severe migraine just by being there, seriously hindered the reflexes of Grand Master Luke Skywalker and did the same to Sword of the Jedi Jaina Solo Fel. Katarn also literally compares it to the VotJ IIRC.

But she also prior to this had just come off of several days of relying solely on the Force instead of sleeping, eating and drinking. Which is only after she has been to Nathema. On Nathema she is stated to suffer nigh-insanity and the literal tearing apart of her psyché which is stated to be outright on another level compared to what she suffered on Malachor V during the fight against the Sith. Against ths Sith she's experiencing the worst moment of her life, far worse than the original detonation of the battle of Malachor V which was so severe that tha she had to sever herself to survive the mental backlash of all the deaths. This experience was still a lasting trauma ten years later that is literally stated in the novel to be the thing she overcomes to gain the strength to defeat Traya.

See people keep saying that on Malachor V and Dromund Kaas she is hindered both times but they utterly fail to recognise that Meetra on Malachor V is literally capable of beating Traya because she's strong enough to withstand the nexus, the mental trauma, all of it. Against Nyriss, she's on a nexus that Katarn literally compares favorably to the Valley of the Jedi and she has just come off of literally the worst hinderance of her life in the form of Nathema.
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:12 pm
Nihilus stomps
Geistalt
Geistalt

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

on Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:08 pm
@LadyKulvax

Thanks. That just makes the Hero of Tython all the more impressive for beating Tenebrae there.
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Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Nyriss

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