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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 28th 2020, 6:32 pm
I said she is a DE FACTO council member, like Qui-Gon, Pong Krell etc. 

Source? 


. Because in episode 3, the Council wanted to take her, and Palpatine insisted on Anakin. They wanted to take her even earlier, but they did not take her only because of her insolence.

Again: source? And once again, it's irrelevant.


Kenan defeated Grand Inquisitor only with the help of Ezra. In season 2, he could not even defeat the ordinary inquisitor. And honestly, I did not see much difference between him in the 2nd and 4th seasons.

Sorry, but you've clearly not watched the episode and clearly haven't watched the Inquisitor fights. I've detailed each of these in my RT on this very board.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 1:07 am
@Bergmar wrote:
BoD wrote:
Luminara was not, nor was she ever, a Council member.

I also didn't intend to mention this, but Filoni also directly compares the GI and Ventress (noting that the GI is less powerful, though). Considering that Kanan defeated him and the huge gap between S1 Kanan and Kanan at the time of his death, it's not illogical to think he's comparable or superior to canon Ventress in his prime, at least as of her appearances in the early seasons.


I said she is a DE FACTO council member, like Qui-Gon, Pong Krell etc. I'm writing this for the third time why. Because in episode 3, the Council wanted to take her, and Palpatine insisted on Anakin. They wanted to take her even earlier, but they did not take her only because of her insolence.

Kenan defeated Grand Inquisitor only with the help of Ezra. In season 2, he could not even defeat the ordinary inquisitor. And honestly, I did not see much difference between him in the 2nd and 4th seasons.
Let's break this down one point at a time, shall we?

First, where are you getting the source claiming she was a "de facto" council member? Is it a Legends source or a Canon source? I don't recall anything in Canon implying she was next in line to be on the council. 

Second, even if she was next in line to be on the council, as others such as myself have pointed out, that still doesn't mean anything. Coleman Trebor and Jocasta Nu were both on the council, and they were fairly average combatants, at best. There are many, many ways to get oneself invited to join the Jedi Council, and not all of them involve being extremely skilled or powerful.

Third, you claim Kanan "defeated the Grand Inquisitor only with the help of Ezra." Let's take a deeper look at that statement.

In A Call to Action, the episode where Kanan gets captured, we see a good look at how end-of-season-1 Kanan and the Grand Inquisitor compare without Ezra's presence. Kanan holds his own extremely well, and is even the first to land a physical blow when he kicks the Grand Inquisitor in the chest. This implies at least some level of parity as duelists between the two. And while the Grand Inquisitor does drive Kanan back as the duel continues, let's not forget that Kanan is a Form III specialist, with some elements of Form IV mixed in. Form III is all about playing defensively, giving ground and looking for an opening. Kanan's kick on the Grand Inquisitor is a near perfect example of that approach. Just because Kanan gives ground for most of the duel does not mean he's outclassed as a duelist, it just goes to show that he's employing his preferred style. It's especially telling that the Grand Inquisitor isn't able to overcome Kanan blade-to-blade. He has to defeat Kanan by instead pinning him with telekinesis. 

Then we get to the Season 1 Finale. Kanan had just been rescued from being tortured for days on end, and when the fight starts, he needs Ezra's support to simply stand. Despite this, and despite Kanan using Ezra's lightsaber (a weapon of radically different design and function from what he's accustomed to) instead of his own, Kanan is able to apply constant pressure to the Grand Inquisitor at the start of the fight. He's even able to dodge several of the Grand Inquisitor's kicks and strikes while continually driving the Inquisitor back. Sure, by the time Ezra enters the fray, the Grand Inquisitor is pressuring him in a lightsaber bind. But this is more a showing of the Grand Inquisitor's superior raw strength and Force augmentation, not superior skill with a lightsaber. 

Once Ezra does step in, it's important to look at just how little of an impact he actually has. The Grand Inquisitor's double-bladed lightsaber aids him in combating multiple opponents, much like Maul in Episode 1. He barely needs to divide his attention to keep Ezra at bay. Not to mention Ezra never even goes in for a single swing of his lightsaber, and seems utterly overwhelmed by the occasional attack the Inquisitor throws his way. It's also important to observe Kanan's performance against the Inquisitor during this stretch of the duel. Once again, he's pressuring the Inquisitor, forcing him back, and dodging the Inquisitor's strikes. This isn't the performance of someone who is severely outclassed. Kanan is clearly perfectly capable of going toe-to-toe with the Inquisitor as near-equals by this point in his development. The Inquisitor only ever lands a couple kicks and a Force push on Kanan after he has first Force pushed Ezra. I'd argue his attack on Kanan's student is likely what broke Kanan's concentration and left Kanan open to the Inquisitor's kicks.

Of course, right after this point is when Ezra was seemingly "killed" at the Inquisitor's hands, leading to Kanan having "nothing left to fear." Once Kanan let go of his fears, the fight became a totally one-sided stomp. I don't think this needs any more context or elaboration.

So, regarding the Season 1 Finale and S1 Kanan vs. the Grand Inquisitor, I think it's disingenuous to say he needed Ezra's "help" to defeat the Inquisitor. He'd shown himself to be roughly equal to the Inquisitor as a duelist already, and Ezra contributed almost nothing to the fight before being removed from it. The only benefit to having Ezra engage in combat at all is that Kanan was able to let go of his fears, leading to him utterly stomping the Inquisitor. But even without that benefit, Kanan had already displayed clear parity with the Grand Inquisitor, despite having been tortured for several days on end.   

Next, let's look at your claim that Season 2 Kanan "could not even defeat the ordinary inquisitor." I want to start by addressing the terminology you used here. The Fifth Brother, Seventh Sister, and Eighth Brother managed to survive all the way up to 3 BBY, longer than any Inquisitors before them. The rest had either been killed in encounters with Jedi (The Grand Inquisitor, Sixth Brother, Ninth Sister, Tenth Brother), at the hands of Rebels (Fourth Sister), or at the hands of Vader (Second Sister, two unnamed Inquisitors). To have survived this long, these three Inquisitors must have been among the most skilled, most powerful, or most cunning of the Inquisitorious. And we know for a fact that they were competing for the title of Grand Inquisitor by this point in time. So to say the Inquisitors in Season 2 are "ordinary" seems disingenuous at best. That said, Kanan faces the Inquisitors in three separate episodes of Season 2, so I'll break down each encounter for full context here.

First, Ezra, Zeb, and Kanan faced the Fifth Brother and Second Sister on Takobo. Ezra literally couldn't fight back, as he was carrying a child to safety. Zeb's main weapon is a bo-rifle, which has never been shown to be lightsaber resistant. He literally can't fight back in melee range against the Inquisitors. So most of the encounter was basically 2v1 against Kanan, with Kanan handicapped by his companions. Zeb was twice taken down by the Fifth Brother pretty quickly, and despite Kanan demonstrating the ability to go toe-to-toe against the Seventh Sister just fine, he ultimately was defeated because the two Inquisitors teamed up against him. Hardly a fair showing to judge him by.

Second, Ezra and Kanan fought the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister in Shroud of Darkness. The fight opens with Ezra being driven back by the Seventh Sister and Kanan holding his own against the Fifth Brother rather well. He even manages to stagger the Fifth Brother before demanding Ezra trade places with him, likely due to seeing how much Ezra was struggling against the more formidable Seventh Sister. Ezra, who we know is inferior to Kanan at this point in time, is able to hold his own just fine against the Fifth Brother, while the Seventh Sister is unable to overcome Kanan blade-to-blade. It's only when the Seventh Sister has her droid interfere and attack Kanan that she gets any sort of edge. The encounter ends when Ezra breaks off his duel against the Fifth Brother to shoot the droid off Kanan's head, leaving Ezra wide open to a Force push from the Fifth Brother. This fight ultimately proved inconclusive, and doesn't really show how well Kanan compares to the Seventh Sister. But it at least shows us that Kanan appears to have clear superiority to the Fifth Brother, and likely would have killed him if he hadn't needed to take over for Ezra against the Seventh Sister. 

Third, we come to the Season 2 Finale. There's really only two encounters worth mentioning here. When Ezra and Maul catch up to Kanan and Ahsoka, we see the two Jedi facing all three Inquisitors. Ahsoka is holding off the Seventh Sister and Eighth Brother, while Kanan is yet again depicted holding his own just fine against the Fifth Brother. This fight proves inconclusive as well, since the Inquisitors flee after a brief scuffle with Maul. Moving on, we see the Fifth Brother and Eighth Brother try to ambush Ahsoka and Kanan. Despite the element of surprise being on the Inquisitor's side, the Jedi quickly turn the tide of battle and start driving the Inquisitors back. Even before Maul's intervention, the Jedi duo have the clear upper hand. While the Fifth Brother is taken out from Maul and Ahsoka teaming up against him, Kanan continues dueling the Eighth Brother on his own, and ultimately defeats him by damaging his weapon. Even if he hadn't tried to fly away, the Eighth Brother's weapon was bound to fall apart in the same manner from trying to use it in combat.

So, what can we tell from all this? Well, when Kanan is actually able to fight one of these Inquisitors in a fair, one-on-one situation, he always appears to either hold his own or straight up have the upper hand. The Seventh Sister is the only one who seemed to give him any actual trouble, and it was usually circumstances and inferior numbers/allies on Kanan's side that forced him to retreat from the Inquisitor duo in earlier episodes. So your claim that Kanan can't defeat "ordinary" Inquisitors rings pretty hollow when he's shown to hold a clear edge against both the Fifth Brother and the Eighth Brother. 

Lastly, you say that you "did not see much difference between him in the 2nd and 4th seasons." To me, that just means you haven't been looking hard enough. Kanan may not have had superior dueling feats in Seasons 3 and 4, but that's because most of the lightsaber-wielding enemies of that era had been dealt with. There simply wasn't a narrative reason for him to engage in another proper lightsaber duel past that point. But what you really should look out for are Kanan's Force feats. 



This one in particular is a pretty clear showing of just how much he's grown. From the scale of the telekinesis, to the massive distance of his Force leap, this showing is a clear demonstration of just how powerful he's become since the earlier seasons. Nothing he did in Seasons 1 or 2 even hold a candle to this feat. It's not the only example in Seasons 3 and 4 of just how powerful he's grown, but it's my favorite of the bunch.
HeartoftheForce
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 7:45 am
Kanan performed a similar TK feat in his novel. Him struggling with that is counter evidence for growth. Not indicative of it.

Luminara wins.
BreakofDawn
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 7:55 am
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Kanan performed a similar TK feat in his novel. Him struggling with that is counter evidence for growth. Not indicative of it.

Luminara wins.
He's explicitly stated to have grown in about half a dozen sources, so that growth isn't questionable. It's confirmed.
HeartoftheForce
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 7:56 am
Which just means it's small - nonexistent.

Also if the quotes BoD is reffering to are the ones in his WiP Kanan RT.

Yeah no. The bulk of them are from a non-canon blog and the rest are just misunderstandings.
BreakofDawn
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 9:26 am
Which just means it's small - nonexistent.

 @HeartoftheForce Factually untrue. Even in-universe, the growth is noted by about 3 or 4 different characters, including Vader and the Inquisitors. If Kanan's growth was "small - nonexistent", they wouldn't have felt the need to acknowledge it.


Yeah no. The bulk of them are from a non-canon blog 

It's an episode guide, not a "non-canon blog." Is there any contradictory evidence in it to the show? The material submitted there reflects Filoni's statements and those of the Rebels writing crew. The guy who wrote it is also a Lucasfilm rep:

Justin Bolger is Lucasfilm’s Star Wars social media strategist and he doesn’t like the Empire…he loves it. Catch him occasionally on The Star Wars Show  and talk Star Wars with him on Twitter @TheApexFan .

-


Director,
@StarWars
Marketing and Brand Management at
@FFGames
.


-


Justin Bolger fell in love with Star Wars at the age of 3, when his parents put on A New Hope to distract him from a day of misbehavior. He is the Star Wars social media strategist and spends his days talking a galaxy far, far away with fans online. Justin is also the nicest Imperial you’ll ever meet and is more than happy to speak with you about the wonders of the Galactic Empire.




So it's not a "non-canon blog". It's Lucasfilm approved and endorsed by virtue of being shown on the official Star Wars website as an episode reference guide.

and the rest are just misunderstandings.

How are they misunderstandings?


Last edited by BoD on June 29th 2020, 10:09 am; edited 2 times in total
Galan007
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 9:51 am
Isn't Luminara's best feat briefly fighting S01 Ventress for a bit, before getting beaten by her decisively? And didn't Luminara later admit that she should have never tried to fight Ventress alone(indicating yet again that she was considerably below S01 Ventress)..? Iirc, she really didn't seem to do much better against Ventress than S01 Ahsoka did. /shrug

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I am legitimately curious what Luminara has done in canon that puts her above 'prime' Kanan?

@Bergmar wrote:Because she is de-facto jedi council member, and he is only jedi knight. And Kenan himself said that she was much better than him.
Right, and Ahsoka was technically still a Padawan. Point being, there isn't always a direct correlation between title/rank and power.
BreakofDawn
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 9:55 am
Also, even without Starwars.com:

For everything he gained, Kanan, in strength and clarity of who or what he might be, he couldn’t take the agency to stop Ezra and Ahsoka to, what he could see, was probably a bad decision to side with this guy, and it really came back to bite him. He has reached, on one level, Jedi Knight; being a Jedi Knight in this time wasn’t enough … that’s thinking like a combatant. He has to learn the higher path of the Force, which Yoda and everybody else had learned before him. So that’s what you’re seeing as Kanan evolves as a Jedi.

-


"I definitely think when you start the season he's feeling pretty lost," showrunner Dave Filoni told ComicBook.com in an interview. "I think that he has to grow into an understanding of what it means to be a Jedi, and that's a confusing thing for him. I think he wants to follow some rule book and think if he accomplishes this and accomplishes that, that he'll be a good person and a Jedi."


-


"There's a lot up in the air for Kanan and how he's going to come through it," Filoni acknowledged. "What I also think is interesting is that to get him through it we needed to give him his own master, to show that you're never really done learning, that you're constantly going to be learning in life. You don't just become a Jedi Master and not learn, and even Yoda was learning in The Clone Wars. Those are some of the things that we're bringing into this."


Throw in the numerous examples of characters growing more powerful after emotional trials and hardships and the other characters noting Kanan and Ezra's growth during S1 and 2 and then Filoni confirming this continued (probably more drastically due to higher training rather than figuring things out for himself) into season 3, the growth was far from nonexistent.
Jedi_Jesus
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 12:50 pm
BoD wrote:
@Bergmar wrote:
BoD wrote:
@Bergmar wrote:Luminara stomps
Why?


Because she is de-facto jedi council member, and he is only jedi knight. And Kenan himself said that she was much better than him.
As HFU said, being a Jedi Council member is meaningless here. Kanan is also referred to in several sources (including StarWars.com) as being a master by the time of his death. Kanan also said that around the same time he was getting stomped by the GI. His prime is far beyond that point.


I just caught this. Do you have the quote referring to Kanan being a master? Id love to have it
BreakofDawn
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 1:21 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
I just caught this. Do you have the quote referring to Kanan being a master? Id love to have it

It's mentioned three times in one of the Starwars.com episode guides which I've quoted:

REVISIT THE JOURNEY OF STAR WARS REBELS' PADAWAN WITH THIS EASY EPISODE GUIDE.



-


In this installment…Kanan Jarrus. A master who was never fully trained, Kanan has truly grown over the last four years to become a great example of what it means to be a Jedi. The most important lessons he’s learned can be found in these excellent Star Wars Rebels episodes.



-


It’s the culmination of Kanan’s path. A powerful moment proving that the former lost Padawan has attained true mastery and is ready for whatever the Force has in store for him next.



Dave Filoni also states that Kanan went through the training a master would that separates a knight from a master:

For everything he gained, Kanan, in strength and clarity of who or what he might be, he couldn’t take the agency to stop Ezra and Ahsoka to, what he could see, was probably a bad decision to side with this guy, and it really came back to bite him. He has reached, on one level, Jedi Knight; being a Jedi Knight in this time wasn’t enough … that’s thinking like a combatant. He has to learn the higher path of the Force, which Yoda and everybody else had learned before him. So that’s what you’re seeing as Kanan evolves as a Jedi.


-


[size=14][size=18]"There's a lot up in the air for Kanan and how he's going to come through it," Filoni acknowledged. "What I also think is interesting is that to get him through it we needed to give him his own master, to show that you're never really done learning, that you're constantly going to be learning in life. You don't just become a Jedi Master and not learn, and even Yoda was learning in The Clone Wars. Those are some of the things that we're bringing into this."
[/size]
[/size]


Not sure if the second Filoni quote is referring to him as a Jedi Master or a master in the sense that he has a padawan, but the first is pretty clear.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 1:24 pm
BoD wrote:
I just caught this. Do you have the quote referring to Kanan being a master? Id love to have it

It's mentioned three times in one of the Starwars.com episode guides which I've quoted:

REVISIT THE JOURNEY OF STAR WARS REBELS' PADAWAN WITH THIS EASY EPISODE GUIDE.






-


In this installment…Kanan Jarrus. A master who was never fully trained, Kanan has truly grown over the last four years to become a great example of what it means to be a Jedi. The most important lessons he’s learned can be found in these excellent Star Wars Rebels episodes.



-


It’s the culmination of Kanan’s path. A powerful moment proving that the former lost Padawan has attained true mastery and is ready for whatever the Force has in store for him next.



Dave Filoni also states that Kanan went through the training a master would that separates a knight from a master:

For everything he gained, Kanan, in strength and clarity of who or what he might be, he couldn’t take the agency to stop Ezra and Ahsoka to, what he could see, was probably a bad decision to side with this guy, and it really came back to bite him. He has reached, on one level, Jedi Knight; being a Jedi Knight in this time wasn’t enough … that’s thinking like a combatant. He has to learn the higher path of the Force, which Yoda and everybody else had learned before him. So that’s what you’re seeing as Kanan evolves as a Jedi.


-


[size=14][size=18]"There's a lot up in the air for Kanan and how he's going to come through it," Filoni acknowledged. "What I also think is interesting is that to get him through it we needed to give him his own master, to show that you're never really done learning, that you're constantly going to be learning in life. You don't just become a Jedi Master and not learn, and even Yoda was learning in The Clone Wars. Those are some of the things that we're bringing into this."
[/size]
[/size]


Not sure if the second Filoni quote is referring to him as a Jedi Master or a master in the sense that he has a padawan, but the first is pretty clear.


I appreciate it. Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 228124001 thanks
BreakofDawn
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Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only) - Page 2 Empty Re: Luminara VS Prime Kanan (Canon Only)

on June 29th 2020, 1:45 pm
No problem, screwed up the first quote:

REVISIT THE PATH TO KANAN’S MASTERY WITH THIS EASY EPISODE GUIDE.

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