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Bergmar
Bergmar

Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 19th 2020, 5:55 pm
All-out
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 19th 2020, 6:05 pm
I'm uncertain. A few points:

-We know Vitiate could beat Scourge, Revan, and Meetra all simultaneously.

-I'm not convinced the nexus impacted Revan, and it definitely didn't impact Scourge, but it did, however, impact Meetra.

-Scourge should be roughly on the same level as Traya if not significantly above - he performs similarly to Meetra against the guards, and this is the same Meetra who overpowered Traya on a nexus presumably much more potent than Kaas.

Ultimately, the outcome should mostly remain the same, I'm not convinced swapping in Traya for Scourge makes a difference, nor do I think the removal of the nexus will impact Revan or Scourge. The only unknown variable is how the nexus impacted Meetra and whether she'd be enough to win it for them on neutral ground which I don't think we can quantify - hence my uncertainty.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 19th 2020, 6:10 pm
The trio. At least they won't have a betrayer at this point plus I do think that Traya's attacks and unique abilities will be more than just a distraction to Vitiate.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 19th 2020, 6:41 pm
Does not change much.

Darth Traya is an interesting replacement no doubt but things can go much wrong for her as well. She does not have a measure of Tenebrae's Telepathic abilities - she might succumb to the pressure. And she have no chance whatsoever if she finds herself caught in the destructive energies unleashed by Tenebrae.

Revan had taught both Lord Scourge and Meetra about how to counter powerful Telepathic intrusions. However, there was no guarantee that this would work in their case.

@NotAA3 wrote:I'm uncertain. A few points:

-We know Vitiate could beat Scourge, Revan, and Meetra all simultaneously.

-I'm not convinced the nexus impacted Revan, and it definitely didn't impact Scourge, but it did, however, impact Meetra.

-Scourge should be roughly on the same level as Traya if not significantly above - he performs similarly to Meetra against the guards, and this is the same Meetra who overpowered Traya on a nexus presumably much more potent than Kaas.

Ultimately, the outcome should mostly remain the same, I'm not convinced swapping in Traya for Scourge makes a difference, nor do I think the removal of the nexus will impact Revan or Scourge. The only unknown variable is how the nexus impacted Meetra and whether she'd be enough to win it for them on neutral ground which I don't think we can quantify - hence my uncertainty.

There was one potential outcome of this battle which Lord Scourge had experienced in a vision - a solid one at that:

Revan lay motionless on the floor of the Citadel’s throne room. Meetra and Scourge lay beside him, their bodies twisted and broken, clinging to the last moments of life.

The Emperor approached the trio, regarding them with a cold and casual contempt as he loomed above his fallen adversaries. Scourge tried to stand and flee, but his crippled limbs wouldn’t support his weight. All he could do was crawl on his belly like a worm.

His efforts drew the attention of the Emperor, who didn’t speak but came over and lowered himself to one knee. He grabbed Scourge by the shoulder and rolled him over so he was staring up into the twin voids of the Emperor’s eyes.

As he reached out a hand and placed it on Scourge’s forehead, the Sith began to scream.

From (Lord Scourge's vision, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

THAT was the starting point for confusion in Lord Scourge.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 20th 2020, 1:38 am
In the Revan novel, the entire team never attacked Vitiate at once. So what would happen if they did is not really clear. In the novel, the idea that the trio could not defeat Vitiate is from Scourge's perceptive, which is not necessarily accurate. Revan believed that the trio actually could beat Vitiate. Scourge would actually of been amped from Kass' nexus (Traya would be here too). Vitiate in general is not a very skilled opponent and it's clear he has difficulty concentrating on many people at once: like how it's stated that Meetra could of actually killed him from a saber throw which Vitiate didn't sense or when The Outlander stabbed him in back without him sensing him. 

I think it could go potentiality either way.
NotAA3
NotAA3
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Level Four

Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 20th 2020, 1:51 am
@S_W_LeGenD

There was one potential outcome of this battle which Lord Scourge had experienced in a vision - a solid one at that:

Uh, within that very post you quoted I say Vitiate > the trio.
NotAA3
NotAA3
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Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 20th 2020, 2:04 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@SnowxElf

In the Revan novel, the entire team never attacked Vitiate at once. So what would happen if they did is not really clear.

What would happen is made clear by secondary sources* and Scourge's own testimony.

The Essential Reader's Companion wrote:*”The Emperor’s power is too much for Revan. Recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable, Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan.

This quote confirms the idea that Vitiate would have won, however, while it basically debunks your whole argument by itself, I'll still tackle the rest of your post below:

In the novel, the idea that the trio could not defeat Vitiate is from Scourge's perceptive, which is not necessarily accurate.

Why is it "not necessarily accurate"? We have no reason to doubt him, especially when all thematic implications say that it was not Revan's destiny to destroy Tenebrae - it was The Outlander's.

Revan believed that the trio actually could beat Vitiate.

Revan believed the trio "stood a real chance" at victory which is notably distinct from him thinking they 100% are going to beat Vitiate. In the end, they would have lost as is made very clear within the novel.

Vitiate in general is not a very skilled opponent and it's clear he has difficulty concentrating on many people at once: like how it's stated that Meetra could of actually killed him from a saber throw which Vitiate didn't sense or when The Outlander stabbed him in back without him sensing him.

In the former instance, Vitiate was solely focused on Revan because he thought his guards were taking care of the others. In the latter instance, Vitiate let himself be killed. I don't get why you think you can disagree with clear statements in the novel with your own subjective interpretation of Vitiate's fighting abilities - it's made clear that he would have won the fight.
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BoD
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Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 20th 2020, 3:06 am
Scourge says about 8 pages later that his betrayal of Meetra and Revan changed very little, and that they would have lost anyway, indicating that any futures where they won were highly unlikely and/or specific circumstances for that to happen. Not seeing how this team does much better.

Edit: Went and grabbed the quote:

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause.


Last edited by BoD on June 20th 2020, 3:41 am; edited 1 time in total
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 20th 2020, 3:22 am
Sustituying scourge for traya seems a terrible idea anyways, not sure if the team can make it still i could probably said vitiate still wins
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 20th 2020, 4:13 am
@BoD @Notaa3

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause.

never mind, You've convinced me he would have won


Edit: Actually no, Ant just made a really good post.


Last edited by SnowxElf on June 20th 2020, 4:46 am; edited 1 time in total
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 20th 2020, 4:27 am
This team probably beats Vitiate. The original trio never fought Vitiate united (Revan's powers were exhausted when Meetra and Scourge arrived), and Kreia's probably better than Scourge. Plus, no nexuses for Vitiate here.
Bergmar
Bergmar

Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 20th 2020, 11:39 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:This team probably beats Vitiate. The original trio never fought Vitiate united (Revan's powers were exhausted when Meetra and Scourge arrived), and Kreia's probably better than Scourge. Plus, no nexuses for Vitiate here.


I Agree with you. But I will say that Traya even better than Nyriss.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

on June 20th 2020, 12:33 pm
Meetra may be willing to give up a kill shot on Vitiate to save Revan but Traya won't.

Team wins if Vitiate targets Revan first. In which case his combative ineptness screws him.

If he clears the fodder first he wins without out much trouble.
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Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel) Empty Re: Revan Reborn & Darth Traya & Meetra Surik vs Vitiate (Novel)

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