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Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 4:49 am
[hideedit]
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 6:34 am
Didn't Kenobi get slapped by Dooku there?
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 7:07 am
@Darth Nihilus wrote:Didn't Kenobi get slapped by Dooku there?
Mustafar Kenobi didn't
[hideedit]


Last edited by Dolph on June 19th 2020, 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 8:44 am
Kenobi will have to take it slow. But he wins if he does.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 8:47 am
Dooku
Red12789
Red12789

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 1:16 pm
Dooku wins. Kenobi has a solid chance of winning if this was sabers only (force augmentation allowed) but in an all out fight, Dooku wins.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 1:37 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Dooku
The Rich Man
The Rich Man

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 2:24 pm
Prime Kenobi wins
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 2:50 pm
Kenobi gets cucked again.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 5:45 pm
As of Mustafar Kenobi can take him. The disparities in their performances against Anakin are too much. Any incarnation before loses though.


Last edited by Sjuttiosju on June 19th 2020, 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 5:48 pm
Kenobi. Comparably skilled and is comparably powerful by this point. I'll take a Kenobi who could deflect Force blasts from MFV over Dooku.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 6:06 pm
@BoD

Kenobi. Comparably skilled and is comparably powerful by this point.

Why is he comparably skilled and comparably powerful?

I'll take a Kenobi who could deflect Force blasts from MFV over Dooku.

Why is this feat beyond Dooku?
Lime
Lime

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 6:42 pm
Count Dooku
Seturna
Seturna

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 7:30 pm
The Count like always.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 19th 2020, 8:45 pm
Obi-Wan Kenobi as of Episode III did not had a solid counter to combative qualities of Count Dooku.

Perhaps Ben Kenobi might surprise? Like he surprised Darth Maul?
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 20th 2020, 2:29 am
Been done. We already know the outcome.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 20th 2020, 3:51 am
Dooku.
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 20th 2020, 5:38 am
Why is he comparably skilled and comparably powerful?

Because Dooku has yet to display feats like deflecting multiple Force blasts from a Force user as powerful as MFV. As for skill, I've yet to see a case for ROTS Dooku being more skilled than Kenobi by any noticeable margin. And for goodness sake, please don't bring up the Force grip thing like you usually do for a comparison of power. 



Why is this feat beyond Dooku?

Because Dooku has simply not replicated something of this caliber. Zonakin for example could effortlessly smash aside projectiles Dooku threw at him "with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe." While obviously not strictly direct forms of comparison (one is a direct blast whereas one is Zonakin stopping and destroying a facet of Dooku's power), we have Dooku's defences being rendered virtually nonexistent in the face of Zonakin whereas a more powerful version of Kenobi than the one that fought Dooku on the Iron Hand (note: by this, I refer to his mindset) is able to weather direct blasts from MFV, who at this point has completely devoted himself to killing Kenobi: 




Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it. It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished


-


This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals. It was Anakin against Obi-
Wan. Personally. Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other


I see no reason Dooku > Kenobi given their respective performances against Anakin (Zonakin and MFV), with the respective iterations of the characters they fought being at the very least comparable. The only other form of comparison between the two is from the Iron Hand, which is not only before Kenobi went through notable emotional growth and acceptance but also has underlying circumstances (as LOTL has highlighted repeatedly, so I'm not going to indulge an argument over them by repeating them). 
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 20th 2020, 6:26 am
Dooku is actually implied to be deflecting Zonakins blasts in the senior novel.
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 20th 2020, 7:07 am
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku is actually implied to be deflecting Zonakins blasts in the senior novel.
Do you have a quote?
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 20th 2020, 7:35 am
@BoD wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Dooku is actually implied to be deflecting Zonakins blasts in the senior novel.
Do you have a quote?




Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

- RotS Novel
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 20th 2020, 7:59 am
I don't see the reference or implication of Force blasts. It's a battle of Force energy manifested through saber combat. It's not at all similar to Kenobi's feat.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 20th 2020, 4:25 pm
@BoD

Because Dooku has yet to display feats like deflecting multiple Force blasts from a Force user as powerful as MFV.

[...]

Because Dooku has simply not replicated something of this caliber.

Because we all know hasn't and therefore can't is a very solid argument... seriously, though, I asked for reasons this feat is beyond Dooku // makes Kenobi > Dooku in power, and unfortunately, Dooku having not replicated something like this does not qualify, it simply makes it unknown whether he can (unless you can establish a firm cap on Dooku's abilities).

That aside, Dooku probably can replicate Kenobi's feat. I'm sure you're aware of the Barrier >> TK argument - Sidious can't breach Maul's TK defences despite the enormous gap in power; MFV not being able to do so to Kenobi at best indicates a Maul-Sidious gap between the two. By contrast, Dooku shows considerably more closeness to Yoda (who is = Sidious who is = MFV) - they stalemated in a Force Clash in AOTC, and the novelization notes Dooku pressed Yoda with his Force Lightning. Tell me again why this feat is beyond Dooku's ability to replicate.

As for skill, I've yet to see a case for ROTS Dooku being more skilled than Kenobi by any noticeable margin.

I'd say Dooku consistently setting up scenarios where he can circumvent Kenobi's defences and tossing him around with Telekinesis would be a pretty good indication. Beyond that, this isn't an actual argument, simply saying, "I've yet to see a case for ROTS Dooku being more skilled than Kenobi by any noticeable margin.", doesn't actually prove Kenobi should be "comparably skilled" which is what you should be doing. Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and regretfully, you have none.

And for goodness sake, please don't bring up the Force grip thing like you usually do for a comparison of power.

I don't think I've used the Force grip as a comparison of power in recent memory which just proves that you haven't - apparently - been paying attention in the majority of our discussions. I used Dooku ragdolling Kenobi as evidence of how the fight would go, but I have never once attributed it as a power showing. Dooku obviously can't breach Kenobi's Force Defences, but the argument isn't contingent on such a premise, the argument just proposes that Dooku is skilled enough to strike Kenobi with Force attacks when he's vulnerable.

Zonakin for example could effortlessly smash aside projectiles Dooku threw at him "with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe."

I don't even need to debunk this argument, because fortunately, you've already done it for me:

While obviously not strictly direct forms of comparison (one is a direct blast whereas one is Zonakin stopping and destroying a facet of Dooku's power)

There is no comparison to be had here. You're trying to compare two totally different feats without any analysis on why they're related.

we have Dooku's defences being rendered virtually nonexistent in the face of Zonakin

Correct, Dooku gets his shit kicked in by Anakin's duelling abilities. Trying to compare that below to Kenobi blocking Mustafar Vader's Force Blasts is just ridiculous when we've seen Sidious basically stomp Maul in sabers but be unable to breach his Barrier directly.

whereas a more powerful version of Kenobi than the one that fought Dooku on the Iron Hand (note: by this, I refer to his mindset) is able to weather direct blasts from MFV, who at this point has completely devoted himself to killing Kenobi:

Why is Mustafar Kenobi more powerful (please, don't tell me you're referring to LETTING!GO!OBI-WAN)? I'm asking because there are multiple arguments for Kenobi being more powerful, and I'd rather know which one you're talking about rather than having to refute all of them.

I see no reason Dooku > Kenobi given their respective performances against Anakin (Zonakin and MFV),

Yes, Kenobi > Dooku based on a bunch of comparisons between totally different things with no extensive analysis on how you reached the idea that Kenobi is more powerful. I concede, the argument is too strong.

with the respective iterations of the characters they fought being at the very least comparable.

Why are they at least comparable? You said earlier in the post:

a more powerful version of Kenobi than the one that fought Dooku on the Iron Hand (note: by this, I refer to his mindset)

Mindset matters for Kenobian growth but we ignore the differences between Anakin's mindsets on the IH and Mustafar. You know... dragon poisoning him and all of that.

The only other form of comparison between the two is from the Iron Hand, which is not only before Kenobi went through notable emotional growth and acceptance but also has underlying circumstances (as LOTL has highlighted repeatedly, so I'm not going to indulge an argument over them by repeating them).

Yes, let's see (rebuttals are in regular text, the arguments I'm addressing are in bold):

-Kenobi was hindered by his form. - The outcome doesn't change, Kenobi's form is a constant across all encounters.

-Kenobi wasn't expecting Dooku to turn around and attack him. - Right... k. The fact that Kenobi thinks he can take Dooku out when the latter is distracted does not mean he isn't prepared for the idea that Dooku could suddenly turn round and attack him. Moreover, this supposed handicap for Kenobi isn't attributed as the reason he lost in any source despite multiple going out of their way to justify Kenobi's loss (c.f. the source saying Kenobi's form is the reason he lost). It's such a great hindrance to Kenobi that Anakin was there to press Dooku and drain his reserves while Kenobi attempted to stab him in the back. And, as a final point, the distraction point isn't true for Kenobi in the Adult Novelization when he's just STONEWALLED(!!!) Dooku; Dooku sends him flying with a whipcrack of his power, regardless.

I think I've just about covered everything, though let me know if I've missed any other LOTL arguments.

P.S. I'd appreciate getting tagged next time.


Last edited by NotAA3 on June 23rd 2020, 4:12 pm; edited 4 times in total
O-Siri
O-Siri

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 20th 2020, 11:21 pm
Seeing how there is little to no difference between MF and IH Kenobi(other than one being considerably heartsick and emotionally weary) still Dooku.
avatar
LOTL

ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

on June 21st 2020, 11:58 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:@BoD

Because Dooku has yet to display feats like deflecting multiple Force blasts from a Force user as powerful as MFV.

[...]

Because Dooku has simply not replicated something of this caliber.

Because we all know hasn't and therefore can't is a very solid argument... seriously, though, I asked for reasons this feat is beyond Dooku // makes Kenobi > Dooku in power, and unfortunately, Dooku having not replicated something like this does not qualify, it simply makes it unknown whether he can (unless you can establish a firm cap on Dooku's abilities).

That aside, Dooku probably can replicate Kenobi's feat. I'm sure you're aware of the Barrier >> TK argument - Sidious can't breach Maul's TK defences despite the enormous gap in power; MFV not being able to do so to Kenobi at best indicates a Maul-Sidious gap between the two. By contrast, Dooku shows considerably more closeness to Yoda (who is = Sidious who is = MFV) - they stalemated in a Force Clash in AOTC, and the novelization notes Dooku pressed Yoda with his Force Lightning. Tell me again why this feat is beyond Dooku's ability to replicate.

As for skill, I've yet to see a case for ROTS Dooku being more skilled than Kenobi by any noticeable margin.

I'd say Dooku consistently setting up scenarios where he can circumvent Kenobi's defences and tossing him around with Telekinesis would be a pretty good indication. Beyond that, this isn't an actual argument, simply saying, "I've yet to see a case for ROTS Dooku being more skilled than Kenobi by any noticeable margin.", doesn't actually prove Kenobi should be "comparably skilled" which is what you should be doing. Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and regretfully, you have none.

And for goodness sake, please don't bring up the Force grip thing like you usually do for a comparison of power.

I don't think I've used the Force grip as a comparison in power in recent memory which just proves that you haven't - apparently - been paying attention in the majority of our discussions. I used Dooku ragdolling Kenobi as evidence of how the fight would go, but I have never once attributed it as a power showing. Dooku obviously can't breach Kenobi's Force Defences, but the argument isn't contingent on such a premise, the argument just proposes that Dooku is skilled enough to strike Kenobi with Force attacks when he's vulnerable.

Zonakin for example could effortlessly smash aside projectiles Dooku threw at him "with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe."

I don't even need to debunk this argument, because fortunately, you've already done it for me:

While obviously not strictly direct forms of comparison (one is a direct blast whereas one is Zonakin stopping and destroying a facet of Dooku's power)

There is no comparison to be had here. You're trying to compare two totally different feats without any analysis on why they're related.

we have Dooku's defences being rendered virtually nonexistent in the face of Zonakin

Correct, Dooku gets his shit kicked in by Anakin's duelling abilities. Trying to compare that below to Kenobi blocking Mustafar Vader's Force Blasts is just ridiculous when we've seen Sidious basically stomp Maul in sabers but be unable to breach his Barrier directly.

whereas a more powerful version of Kenobi than the one that fought Dooku on the Iron Hand (note: by this, I refer to his mindset) is able to weather direct blasts from MFV, who at this point has completely devoted himself to killing Kenobi:

Why is Mustafar Kenobi more powerful (please, don't tell me you're referring to LETTING!GO!OBI-WAN)? I'm asking because there are multiple arguments for Kenobi being more powerful, and I'd rather know which one you're talking about rather than having to refute all of them.

I see no reason Dooku > Kenobi given their respective performances against Anakin (Zonakin and MFV),

Yes, Kenobi > Dooku based on a bunch of comparisons between totally different things with no extensive analysis on how you reached the idea that Kenobi is more powerful. I concede, the argument is too strong.

with the respective iterations of the characters they fought being at the very least comparable.

Why are they at least comparable? You said earlier in the post:

a more powerful version of Kenobi than the one that fought Dooku on the Iron Hand (note: by this, I refer to his mindset)

Mindset matters for Kenobian growth but we ignore the differences between Anakin's mindsets on the IH and Mustafar. You know... rising dragon and all of that.

The only other form of comparison between the two is from the Iron Hand, which is not only before Kenobi went through notable emotional growth and acceptance but also has underlying circumstances (as LOTL has highlighted repeatedly, so I'm not going to indulge an argument over them by repeating them).

Yes, let's see (rebuttals are in regular text, the arguments I'm addressing are in bold):

-Kenobi was hindered by his form. - The outcome doesn't change, Kenobi's form is a constant across all encounters.

-Kenobi wasn't expecting Dooku to turn around and attack him. - Right... k. The fact that Kenobi thinks he can take Dooku out when the latter is distracted does not mean he isn't prepared for the idea that Dooku could suddenly turn round and attack him. Moreover, this supposed handicap for Kenobi isn't attributed as the reason he lost in any source despite multiple going out of their way to justify Kenobi's loss (c.f. the source saying Kenobi's form is the reason he lost). It's such a great hindrance to Kenobi that Anakin was there to press Dooku and drain his reserves while Kenobi attempted to stab him in the back. And, as a final point, the distraction point isn't true for Kenobi in the Adult Novelization when he's just STONEWALLED(!!!) Dooku. Dooku sends him flying with a whipcrack of his power, regardless.

I think I've just about covered everything, though let me know if I've missed any other LOTL arguments.

P.S. I'd appreciate getting tagged next time.
Lol

None of that is among the arguments you haven't given before and none of that hasn't been debunked. 

Nice try though trying to have the stonewalling and the letting go be converted into memes. But then again, that is the usual MO isn't it? When we aren't able to counter an argument we turn it into a meme and have it not be taken seriously by the common populace.

But yeah, begin by countering the "LettingGo" Obi Wan as you so name him.
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ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi Empty Re: ROTS Dooku vs ROTS Kenobi

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