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Thrawn
Thrawn

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 10th 2020, 1:17 am
Valkorian. Quite easily.
The Rich Man
The Rich Man

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 10th 2020, 7:00 am
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@The Rich Man wrote:
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@The Rich Man wrote:Nyax was stated to be superior to Luke, Tahiri and Mara Jade in power. Even if Luke was jobbing, he still had his full power. Nyax also destroyed multiple mataloks while constantly losing power. When did Valkorion do something like this?

Following statement:

And he was tired of these creatures. They were weaker than he, but so stubborn. Even inventive.

From (Star Wars: Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand)

THAT was his own perception of things.

---

NO! When you are JOBBING, you are not actually doing your best to win but in the act of FACILITATING others. Luke could just be making sure that his allies do not FALL in the battle. He was not opening himself to the Force to the extent he needed to overwhelm Lord Nyax because of his self-imposed psychological constraints at the time. Frame-of-mind is everything in this matter.

When you have doubts about yourself, you are unlikely to succeed. You will not achieve big with this kind of mindset. You will get your *** handed back to you by a seemingly very challenging opponent, or outclassed by another in a contest. This LESSON is valid for dealing with real-life situations as well.

WE have seen beforehand what Luke could really do when he was in the frame-of-mind to achieve. He managed to disarm Palpatine in a duel (better than Yoda?) and he also managed to manipulate a singularity created by Dovin Basals in a battle to the advantage of his camp (a feat which only Kyp Durron was able to replicate in another battle; emphasis on the frame-of-mind part once again).

Lord Nyax was very powerful without any doubt, but superior to Luke as well? Is Lord Nyax the most powerful Force-user ever?

Several years after Lord Nyax, Luke managed to defeat UnuThul in single combat who in turn was siphoning life-force of a huge number of Killiks to fuel his power at the time. The shift was sudden when Luke rooted himself into the heart of the Force or something on these lines (a marked shifted in his frame-of-mind actually; and then UnuThul was on the receiving end afterwards and the duel did not last long either).

---

Valkorion one-shotted scores of starships of smugglers (some really big ones) while subjecting Arcann to a Force Storm via the body of The Outlander (his expression of power expanded to such an extent that seemingly stray bolts brought the shipping activity of the entire region to a complete halt; significant collateral damage was recorded by observing droids). And Valkorion was actually compromised in this fight because he was residing in the body of The Outlander and this body was not suited for his powers and would have crumbled under pressure (Valkorion was risking killing The Outlander with his significant expressions of power). Arcann also noted as much and conveyed this reality to Vaylin that their father was compromised under the circumstances; they finally have an opening to exploit to their advantage (i.e. kill The Outlander).

To their dismay, Valkorion was slowly but surely transforming The Outlander from within...

Key takeaway or insinuation from that demonstration of power while compromised is that if Valkorion actually had a body suited for his powers, he was capable of one-shotting an entire fleet of the Republic (if one was standing in his way), and would have overwhelmed/defeated/killed Arcann of-course.

Yes, Lord Nyax was chugging debris at those incoming starships; debris did the damage. His own energies didn't.

Valkorion is on another level in comparison to Lord Nyax, my friend.
It doesn't mean he can one-shot Nyax. He can win but not "one-shot". Even if Luke jobs, it doesn't drop him from being one of the most powerful force users in history to being one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. Luke, Tahiri and Mara Jade also used the same amp as Nyax. Otherwise, there was no way they could defeat Nyax. As for the quote, it isn't only perspective of Nyax. Even if it is, there is something called force sense. Nyax might've sensed how powerful they were. Valkorion just killed pilots and the ships were destroyed. So, Valkorion's own power didn't destroy the ships directly. And Mataloks >>> the ships that destroyed by Valkorion

Good enough for me if you come to understand that Valkorion can/will defeat Lord Nyax.

Novels are written in THIRD PERSON LIMITED format as a rule of thumb because PERSPECTIVES of different characters are taken into consideration for much of the content in the storytelling aspect. In this manner, authors do not make characters INFALLIBLE but FALLIBLE.

Although statements in relation to any theme in a novel can be taken at face value but they can also be challenged by information from another source with an alternative perspective to inform the same theme. Difference of opinion if you will.

For instance, Luke Skywalker might be made to defeat a powerful opponent in one STORY by author ABC but loose to a relatively less powerful opponent in another STORY by author DEF. An in-universe explanation might be offered in a THIRD SOURCE to explain WHY Luke's performance in combat fluctuated from opponent to opponent by author GHI. Star Wars is a COMPLEX and SUBJECTIVE theme much like real-life works, and not so black and white.

Good authors do not try to hinder creativity in works of fiction with INFALLIBLE declarations in relation to any theme.

Philosophy aside;

Characters such as Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade Skywalker are heavily involved in combat situations and TRIALS of various kinds. These stresses continue to shape their mental conditioning and continue to take a toll on their bodies. They are not expected to be in their best of shape on 24/7 basis.

I will give an analogy of Jedi Knight Warren Sedoru of the Old Republic timeline:

Warren Sedoru was already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them. The price of these triumphs was high, however. Records indicate Warren was critically injured over a dozen times in battles from Alderaan to Yavin Four. Although he survived these near-deaths without need of cybernetic replacement parts, Warren’s connection to the Force began to diminish. When the Republic signed the Treaty of Coruscant, Warren dedicated himself wholeheartedly to peace. He gave up his rank as Jedi Knight and became a Padawan to Master Tol Braga.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex entry: Warren Sedoru (Knight)

Although, officially recognized as one of the most powerful Jedi of the ORDER, he suffered extensive injuries during his exploits in the Great Galactic War which in turn took a toll on his physical well-being and also his command of the Force by extension. He began to retrain himself in the ways of the Force under the tutelage of the powerful Jedi Master Tol Braga to make sure that he does not loose his value and regain his strength instead.

---

Luke have had his share of extremely stressful experiences in the past including nigh-sundering of his spirit by Exar Kun's intangible presence on YAVIN 4. Do people ever consider long-term implications of these stresses on the well-being of a natural born Force-user?

Mindset in itself is an important factor and consideration. Luke Skywalker admit as much:

"In that sense, your instincts about me are correct, and so were Vergere's. The dark side has, in a sense, dominated my life. I've suspected for a long time that the fatigue I've sometimes experienced when drawing on the Force during combat owes to my fear of abusing the raw power you describe." - Luke Skywalker (post Lord Nyax period)

Well....

---

Senses are not INFALLIBLE, my friend. There are numerous examples in this case. The one I recall at the moment was that Darth Tenebrous did not realize how strong Darth Plagueis was until his maxi-chlorians invaded the body of his apprentice.

Some Force-users are also more attuned in the CONTROL spectrum and by extension SENSE spectrum than others. This is not the same for everyone.

---

Valkorion was not actually attacking shipping activity in the vicinity; much of his focus was directed towards breaking Arcann with seemingly excessive use of force (probably the best he could manage through the body of The Outlander without crumbling it) and the resultant bolts were so intense and expansive that many of them bypassed Arcann and struck numerous starships mid-flight.

Each stray bolt one-shotted a smuggler's starship of any size mid-flight. Two were struck on-screen leading to collision with others on top. Further collateral damage was not shown visually but a droid commented on this development while observing it from safe distance, making the audience aware of the fact that there was much collateral damage and the shipping activity in the region came to a complete halt consequently.

Each stray bolt struck a starship from the outside, short-circuiting the entire vessel in the process; the operators died from electrocution by extension (they were not directly struck). Now every starship in Star Wars have layers of shielding to cope with stresses of traveling in space including the need to breach atmosphere of planets as well as harmful radiations of different types. Starships used by smugglers feature even higher levels of protection than the norm because smugglers are known to partake in risky activities to earn money (credits). A smuggler's starship is not easy to electrocute by any measure; this much is made apparent in the SWTOR (Return) trailer when a powerful Sith Inquisitor attacks one in the hanger. If you consider playing as a smuggler in SWTOR, you receive a starship with remarkable capabilities in theory and not mass-produced in the galaxy. These are all subtle pointers given to the audience.

Do I really have to explain the PHYSICS of Star Wars here? There are some books written on the subject.

Valkorion very clearly have the ability to destroy an entire FLEET of military-grade ships with a Force Storm from afar, should he try this deed, and is not hindered in any capacity. In fact, with much of his focus directed towards wrecking starships, he might even disintegrate some in the process.

---

Mataloks being greater than other starships, is a crude and childish argument. Layers of shielding is not contingent upon the sheer size of a starship - a small starship can be heavily shielded in comparison to a much bigger one. Some Mataloks were taken down by proton torpedoes for instance but this isn't the case with every cruiser in Star Wars. The VONG preferred protective measures offered by Dovin Basals in big battles, and for good reason.

The fact that debris thrown towards Mataloks could breach them, raises more questions about their shielding measures instead.

Try breaching a Harrower-class dreadnaught with debris and you will be sorely disappointed.
Even if Valkorion wins, Nyax isn't an one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. You said that Luke was jobbing while fighting Nyax but what's called "job" doesn't drop him from being one of the most powerful force users to being one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. Luke and others also had same amp as Nyax. As for the ships, Valkorion didn't directly destroy the ships. He killed the pilots and the ships were destroyed. Even if Valkorion attacked ships, it wouldn't change anything. Arcann deflected the lightning and it caused the pilots to die.
Seturna
Seturna

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 10th 2020, 7:02 am
Good debate
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 10th 2020, 7:28 am
@SnowxElf wrote:
Mataloks being greater than other starships, is a crude and childish argument. Layers of shielding is not contingent upon the sheer size of a starship - a small starship can be heavily shielded in comparison to a much bigger one.

I don't believe I ever stated as much. I stated they were heavily shielded on the fact that they are military ships. They were for sure way more durable and large than any of the ships that Valk shocked, correct me if I am wrong. 

Also, lets say they weren't heavily shielded. He was still crippling Vong coral with his TK on several 1200m ships at once, this is where the size relevance comes in.

My apologies if I misjudged a statement.

The region was an enormous hub of shipping activity, particularly smuggling. Different classes of starships were operating in the region including Shuttles; Dropships; Cruisers; and gigantic ones (super-cruiser types) as well. Stray bolts of Valkorion were going too far, striking all manner of starships mid-flight.

I have given number sequence to different types of starships to indicate difference in size of each:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Valkorion-attack-ships4-Copy

Look at the residual energy of a stray bolt - absolutely enormous. The impact is also visible (stray bolt struck the starship at this moment).

REPEAT: Each stray bolt struck a starship from the outside, short-circuiting the entire vessel in the process; the operators died from electrocution by extension (they were not directly struck).

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Valkorion-attack-ships2-Copy

Collision about to occur between number 2 (Shuttle-type) and number 4 (Cruiser-type); number 3 (Dropship-type) struck by another stray bolt a moment earlier.

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Valkorion-attack-ships3-Copy

Number 5 (Super-cruiser) type was much bigger than the others (twice the size of even number 4); two noticed in total but not shown to be struck by a stray bolt on-screen because this was not the focus of ongoing battle between Valkorion and Arcann. Although given the fact that the entire shipping activity came to a standstill, it is logical to assume that no type or class was safe to operate in the face of incoming stray bolts from beneath.

1 - TIE type
2 - Shuttle type
3 - Dropship type
4 - Cruiser type
5 - Super-cruiser type

Number 5 were among the largest ones around.

1200m long starships existed in the era of Revan, and were in use by different organizations. Smugglers prioritize customization over sheer mass for transport on average, but there are exceptions in each case.

Yes, Lord Nyax's demonstration of power was very impressive no doubt. However, his methods are crude and archaic in comparison to those of Valkorion.

Valkorion's command of the Force is on another level in comparison. Since he could disrupt shipping activity in the entire region with a series of stray bolts while concentrating elsewhere, imagine what he could do if he was actually trying to attack a fleet of incoming starships and not being compromised in the process. He would conjure a Force Storm of enormous scale and blanket the entire fleet of incoming starships from FAR AWAY - and watch them all short-circuit and even disintegrate...


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on June 11th 2020, 2:57 pm; edited 3 times in total
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 10th 2020, 2:52 pm
My apologies if I misjudged a statement.

No problem. I will respond to the rest at least once sometime.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 11th 2020, 6:54 pm
@The Rich Man wrote:Even if Valkorion wins, Nyax isn't an one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. You said that Luke was jobbing while fighting Nyax but what's called "job" doesn't drop him from being one of the most powerful force users to being one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. Luke and others also had same amp as Nyax. As for the ships, Valkorion didn't directly destroy the ships. He killed the pilots and the ships were destroyed. Even if Valkorion attacked ships, it wouldn't change anything. Arcann deflected the lightning and it caused the pilots to die.

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense." - Darth Traya

[1] Valkorion's effectiveness vary from application to application; some of his applications are virtually impossible to counter. He can literally SAP or SEVER a Force-user's connection to the Force (these powers came to him naturally).

---

One codex entry make it clear that Valkorion is not a Nihilist; he does not utterly destroy those around him for the sake of it. He much prefer to feed on the pain, suffering and energy of his subjects to satiate his hunger (a byproduct of his immortality). However, when he is dead serious, make no mistake about it - he will tear any subject a new one.

And what do you think happens when the subject experience an application to which he/she cannot produce a counter? the subject is either incapacitated (best-case) or destroyed (worst-case), it is that simple.

Make no mistake; Arcann have/had remarkable defenses (his in-game coded characteristics indicate as much; I can provide evidence). This matter is also officially established since he is able to TANK an excessively powerful expression of Force Lightning whose mere stray bolts electrocuted starships of varying sizes [mid-flight] and FORCED the entire region to shut down its shipping activity for indefinite period. There was so much collateral damage [off-screen]. This isn't something that any Force-user can replicate, even some of the most powerful Sith, or practitioners of the dark side, cannot even if they try to attack the starships directly.

As I have pointed out before; every starship in Star Wars have layers of shielding to cope with stresses of traveling in space including the need to breach atmosphere of planets as well as harmful radiations of different types. Starships used by smugglers feature even higher levels of protection than the norm because smugglers are known to partake in risky activities to earn money (credits).

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 GQa-CYy5-swtor-wallpaper-1920x1080

THAT is a FULL STREAM of Force Lightning directed towards a smuggler's starship inside a hanger, and it didn't work. Although a single bolt of this Sith Inquisitor was sufficient to incapacitate a young Darth Malgus for a while when deflected towards him by the Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach. Even at this point in time, the young Darth Malgus was one of the greatest warriors of the Empire (not lacking in defenses).

If you consider playing as SMUGGLER in SWTOR, you receive a starship of remarkable capabilities in theory which was very expensive and not mass-produced in the galaxy. These are all subtle pointers given to the audience.

NOW:-

Each stray bolt from Valkorion carried so much residual energy with it that when it struck a starship from the outside, it short-circuited the entire vessel in an instant:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Valkorion-attack-ships4-Copy

- and those onboard died from electrocution by extension.

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 6677946-9073646491-64629

Emphasis mine. Just a stray bolt from Valkorion packed far more energy in it and was far more lethal than a FULL STREAM of Force Lightning unleashed by a Sith Inquisitor; difference is like between DAY and NIGHT.

If Valkorion were to attack starships directly, I am sure that he would have disintegrated many because there is massive difference between residual energy of a stray bolt and raw power behind a continuous flow of a bolt, and a FULL STREAM of bolts is going to pack substantially greater punch than raw power behind a continuous flow of a bolt by extension. Fortunately for the starships operating above, Arcann was on the receiving end of a FULL STREAM from Valkorion.

Kindly study the following blog: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3394-revan-revisited-2020-updated-and-expanded

It explain very well why Jedi Masters Yoda and Revan were so powerful in the ways of the Force; TOP TIER of the Jedi Order.

Revan (Reborn) had no trouble tanking and/or deflecting a FULL STREAM of Force Lightning from a member of the Dark Council which was POTENT enough to have utterly destroyed Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge in one go. And the latter two were accomplished warriors in their own right.

BUT:-

Valkorion produce Force Lightning of such scale, intensity, energy and potency that it becomes IMPOSSIBLE for virtually any Jedi (or Sith) to handle it (with or without a lightsaber); his expression would have COOKED Revan (Reborn) alive if T3-M4 had not saved him:

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.


The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.


From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)


Even a strike team of some of the most powerful and resolute Jedi of the Order utterly FAILED to handle a FULL STREAM of Force Lightning unleashed by Valkorion:

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi do not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of the Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Lightsabers drawn and ready:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 4544926-2216048301-15gru

Legendary Jedi Knights Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz are virtually incapacitated and unable to advance:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 7408128-8133688748-SWTOR

Jedi Master Tol Braga and Hero of Tython are offering substantial resistance and doing their best to contain Valkorion's power:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 7408130-6412756344-SWTOR

Each could cut a swath through conventional forces of Sith including Sith Warriors as if they were nothing on his own in open-ended battles but both are dealing with too much firepower in this case.

Eventually:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 7408139-3128514431-SWTOR

PLEASE NOTE:-

The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopeda)

---

Coming back to Arcann:-

He is no Jedi or Sith but one of the greatest Knights of Zakuul to have ever existed (who committed to the Force-using philosophy of Limitless power), and a son of Valkorion which in turn imply that he is/was GIFTED in the ways of the Force unlike any other natural born. That he was able to cope with a Force Storm of Valkorion, is testament to his remarkable abilities and raw power as a Force-user, and no Jedi can scale from him in this capacity.

However, Arcann had no counter to Valkorion's esoteric DARK BLAST application:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 7407166-4846568294-SWTOR

"Fires a blast of telekinetic energy at the target."

Valkorion ONE-SHOTTED Arcann with THAT application.

THAT application materialize like a concentrated stream of pure dark side energy while in motion and produce an explosive effect while touching the subject, and the attack is so sudden and precise that even some of the fastest moving Force-users are caught offguard while subjected to one.

Does that take away from Arcann's powers and abilities? NOT AT ALL - REFER BACK TO [1] above.

Arcann's exceptional defenses however made sure that he would recover from said attack in time.

Darth Marr - the most powerful Sith in the galaxy at the time - wasn't able to recover from a similar attack earlier (his body was utterly destroyed), he came back as a Sith Spirit however.

Coming back to Lord Nyax:-

How he FARED against Luke Skywalker and his allies, is not representative of how he would FARE against Valkorion.

Let us consider HOW Luke Skywalker FARED against Kyp Durron who in turn was under spell of Exar Kun at the time:

Kyp made a dismissive gesture with one hand, and a sudden wave of dark ripples splashed across the air like the shock front of a concussion grenade. Luke stumbled backward. The lightsaber turned cold in his hand. Frost crystals grew in feathery patterns around the handle. At the core of the brilliant green blade a shadow appeared, a black disease rotting away the purity of the beam. The humming blade sputtered, sounding like a sickly cough. The black taint rapidly grew stronger, swallowing up the green beam. With a frizzle of sparks Luke’s lightsaber died.

Trying to control his growing fear, Luke felt a sudden brush of cold behind him. He turned to see a black, hooded silhouette—the image that had impersonated Anakin Skywalker in Luke’s nightmare…the dark man who had lured Gantoris into a devastating loss of control.
Kyp’s voice came as if from a great distance. “At last, Master Skywalker, you can meet my mentor—Exar Kun.”

Luke dropped his useless lightsaber and crouched. His every muscle suddenly coiled and tensed. He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic. With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from the gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusionary vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke’s body. 

He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.


Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice

Kyp being a Jedi padawan at the time, is not expected to have such kind of powers (even many Jedi Masters wouldn't). Exar Kun had such offensive applications under his belt to which Luke was unable to produce a counter; Luke dropped on the ground almost lifeless consequently and his spirit was nigh-sundered by Exar Kun. Lucky for him, every Jedi in the academy banded together to overcome Exar Kun with the aid of Force ghost of Vodo-Siosk Baas soon after.

When up against Lord Nyax years later, WE do not see any special techniques from Luke to overwhelm his opponent in short order. Luke was rather hesitant to bring his entire power to bear in the fight:

"In that sense, your instincts about me are correct, and so were Vergere's. The dark side has, in a sense, dominated my life. I've suspected for a long time that the fatigue I've sometimes experienced when drawing on the Force during combat owes to my fear of abusing the raw power you describe." - Luke Skywalker (post Lord Nyax period)

SECONDLY:-

Do you see Luke demonstrating applications like those of Valkorion? Luke DOES NOT.

Luke typically fights in conventional ways; with a lightsaber and Telekinetic abilities. These methods are unlikely to provide breakthrough against ODDITIES such as Lord Nyax unless Luke is willing to bring his full power to bear against him.

Luke and his allies rather end up contending with Lord Nyax on his strong points, and therefore, unable to bring him down in short order.

If Valkorion choose to fight Lord Nyax with a lightsaber and Telekinetic abilities - this will definitely turn into a long drawn out fight for both given the fact how well-equipped Lord Nyax is in these aspects.

Valkorion does not fight like THAT - he will not waste his time with crude and archaic methods to overcome Lord Nyax.

Valkorion will BLANKET Lord Nyax with esoteric but extremely lethal expressions of power from AFAR and utterly destroy him in short order.

In no way or form I am suggesting that Lord Nyax is FODDER or LAME - he was very powerful much like Arcann.

My contention is this; Valkorion's command of the Force is on another level in comparison, and he is well-equipped to destroy Lord Nyax from a safe distance.
The Rich Man
The Rich Man

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 12th 2020, 4:03 am
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@The Rich Man wrote:Even if Valkorion wins, Nyax isn't an one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. You said that Luke was jobbing while fighting Nyax but what's called "job" doesn't drop him from being one of the most powerful force users to being one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. Luke and others also had same amp as Nyax. As for the ships, Valkorion didn't directly destroy the ships. He killed the pilots and the ships were destroyed. Even if Valkorion attacked ships, it wouldn't change anything. Arcann deflected the lightning and it caused the pilots to die.

"There are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense." - Darth Traya

[1] Valkorion's effectiveness vary from application to application; some of his applications are virtually impossible to counter. He can literally SAP or SEVER a Force-user's connection to the Force (these powers came to him naturally).

---

One codex entry make it clear that Valkorion is not a Nihilist; he does not utterly destroy those around him for the sake of it. He much prefer to feed on the pain, suffering and energy of his subjects to satiate his hunger (a byproduct of his immortality). However, when he is dead serious, make no mistake about it - he will tear any subject a new one.

And what do you think happens when the subject experience an application to which he/she cannot produce a counter? the subject is either incapacitated (best-case) or destroyed (worst-case), it is that simple.

Make no mistake; Arcann have/had remarkable defenses (his in-game coded characteristics indicate as much; I can provide evidence). This matter is also officially established since he is able to TANK an excessively powerful expression of Force Lightning whose mere stray bolts electrocuted starships of varying sizes [mid-flight] and FORCED the entire region to shut down its shipping activity for indefinite period. There was so much collateral damage [off-screen]. This isn't something that any Force-user can replicate, even some of the most powerful Sith, or practitioners of the dark side, cannot even if they try to attack the starships directly.

As I have pointed out before; every starship in Star Wars have layers of shielding to cope with stresses of traveling in space including the need to breach atmosphere of planets as well as harmful radiations of different types. Starships used by smugglers feature even higher levels of protection than the norm because smugglers are known to partake in risky activities to earn money (credits).

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 GQa-CYy5-swtor-wallpaper-1920x1080

THAT is a FULL STREAM of Force Lightning directed towards a smuggler's starship inside a hanger, and it didn't work. Although a single bolt of this Sith Inquisitor was sufficient to incapacitate a young Darth Malgus for a while when deflected towards him by the Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach. Even at this point in time, the young Darth Malgus was one of the greatest warriors of the Empire (not lacking in defenses).

If you consider playing as SMUGGLER in SWTOR, you receive a starship of remarkable capabilities in theory which was very expensive and not mass-produced in the galaxy. These are all subtle pointers given to the audience.

NOW:-

Each stray bolt from Valkorion carried so much residual energy with it that when it struck a starship from the outside, it short-circuited the entire vessel in an instant:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Valkorion-attack-ships4-Copy

- and those onboard died from electrocution by extension.

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 6677946-9073646491-64629

Emphasis mine. Just a stray bolt from Valkorion packed far more energy in it and was far more lethal than a FULL STREAM of Force Lightning unleashed by a Sith Inquisitor; difference is like between DAY and NIGHT.

If Valkorion were to attack starships directly, I am sure that he would have disintegrated many because there is massive difference between residual energy of a stray bolt and raw power behind a continuous flow of a bolt, and a FULL STREAM of bolts is going to pack substantially greater punch than raw power behind a continuous flow of a bolt by extension. Fortunately for the starships operating above, Arcann was on the receiving end of a FULL STREAM from Valkorion.

Kindly study the following blog: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3394-revan-revisited-2020-updated-and-expanded

It explain very well why Jedi Masters Yoda and Revan were so powerful in the ways of the Force; TOP TIER of the Jedi Order.

Revan (Reborn) had no trouble tanking and/or deflecting a FULL STREAM of Force Lightning from a member of the Dark Council which was POTENT enough to have utterly destroyed Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge in one go. And the latter two were accomplished warriors in their own right.

BUT:-

Valkorion produce Force Lightning of such scale, intensity, energy and potency that it becomes IMPOSSIBLE for virtually any Jedi (or Sith) to handle it (with or without a lightsaber); his expression would have COOKED Revan (Reborn) alive if T3-M4 had not saved him:

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.


The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.


From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)


Even a strike team of some of the most powerful and resolute Jedi of the Order utterly FAILED to handle a FULL STREAM of Force Lightning unleashed by Valkorion:

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi do not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of the Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Lightsabers drawn and ready:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 4544926-2216048301-15gru

Legendary Jedi Knights Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz are virtually incapacitated and unable to advance:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 7408128-8133688748-SWTOR

Jedi Master Tol Braga and Hero of Tython are offering substantial resistance and doing their best to contain Valkorion's power:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 7408130-6412756344-SWTOR

Each could cut a swath through conventional forces of Sith including Sith Warriors as if they were nothing on his own in open-ended battles but both are dealing with too much firepower in this case.

Eventually:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 7408139-3128514431-SWTOR

PLEASE NOTE:-

The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopeda)

---

Coming back to Arcann:-

He is no Jedi or Sith but one of the greatest Knights of Zakuul to have ever existed (who committed to the Force-using philosophy of Limitless power), and a son of Valkorion which in turn imply that he is/was GIFTED in the ways of the Force unlike any other natural born. That he was able to cope with a Force Storm of Valkorion, is testament to his remarkable abilities and raw power as a Force-user, and no Jedi can scale from him in this capacity.

However, Arcann had no counter to Valkorion's esoteric DARK BLAST application:

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 7407166-4846568294-SWTOR

"Fires a blast of telekinetic energy at the target."

Valkorion ONE-SHOTTED Arcann with THAT application.

THAT application materialize like a concentrated stream of pure dark side energy while in motion and produce an explosive effect while touching the subject, and the attack is so sudden and precise that even some of the fastest moving Force-users are caught offguard while subjected to one.

Does that take away from Arcann's powers and abilities? NOT AT ALL - REFER BACK TO [1] above.

Arcann's exceptional defenses however made sure that he would recover from said attack in time.

Darth Marr - the most powerful Sith in the galaxy at the time - wasn't able to recover from a similar attack earlier (his body was utterly destroyed), he came back as a Sith Spirit however.

Coming back to Lord Nyax:-

How he FARED against Luke Skywalker and his allies, is not representative of how he would FARE against Valkorion.

Let us consider HOW Luke Skywalker FARED against Kyp Durron who in turn was under spell of Exar Kun at the time:

Kyp made a dismissive gesture with one hand, and a sudden wave of dark ripples splashed across the air like the shock front of a concussion grenade. Luke stumbled backward. The lightsaber turned cold in his hand. Frost crystals grew in feathery patterns around the handle. At the core of the brilliant green blade a shadow appeared, a black disease rotting away the purity of the beam. The humming blade sputtered, sounding like a sickly cough. The black taint rapidly grew stronger, swallowing up the green beam. With a frizzle of sparks Luke’s lightsaber died.

Trying to control his growing fear, Luke felt a sudden brush of cold behind him. He turned to see a black, hooded silhouette—the image that had impersonated Anakin Skywalker in Luke’s nightmare…the dark man who had lured Gantoris into a devastating loss of control.
Kyp’s voice came as if from a great distance. “At last, Master Skywalker, you can meet my mentor—Exar Kun.”

Luke dropped his useless lightsaber and crouched. His every muscle suddenly coiled and tensed. He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic. With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from the gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusionary vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke’s body. 

He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.


Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice

Kyp being a Jedi padawan at the time, is not expected to have such kind of powers (even many Jedi Masters wouldn't). Exar Kun had such offensive applications under his belt to which Luke was unable to produce a counter; Luke dropped on the ground almost lifeless consequently and his spirit was nigh-sundered by Exar Kun. Lucky for him, every Jedi in the academy banded together to overcome Exar Kun with the aid of Force ghost of Vodo-Siosk Baas soon after.

When up against Lord Nyax years later, WE do not see any special techniques from Luke to overwhelm his opponent in short order. Luke was rather hesitant to bring his entire power to bear in the fight:

"In that sense, your instincts about me are correct, and so were Vergere's. The dark side has, in a sense, dominated my life. I've suspected for a long time that the fatigue I've sometimes experienced when drawing on the Force during combat owes to my fear of abusing the raw power you describe." - Luke Skywalker (post Lord Nyax period)

SECONDLY:-

Do you see Luke demonstrating applications like those of Valkorion? Luke DOES NOT.

Luke typically fights in conventional ways; with a lightsaber and Telekinetic abilities. These methods are unlikely to provide breakthrough against ODDITIES such as Lord Nyax unless Luke is willing to bring his full power to bear against him.

Luke and his allies rather end up contending with Lord Nyax on his strong points, and therefore, unable to bring him down in short order.

If Valkorion choose to fight Lord Nyax with a lightsaber and Telekinetic abilities - this will definitely turn into a long drawn out fight for both given the fact how well-equipped Lord Nyax is in these aspects.

Valkorion does not fight like THAT - he will not waste his time with crude and archaic methods to overcome Lord Nyax.

Valkorion will BLANKET Lord Nyax with esoteric but extremely lethal expressions of power from AFAR and utterly destroy him in short order.

In no way or form I am suggesting that Lord Nyax is FODDER or LAME - he was very powerful much like Arcann.

My contention is this; Valkorion's command of the Force is on another level in comparison, and he is well-equipped to destroy Lord Nyax from a safe distance.
I have another quote saying Nyax is superior than Luke, Mara and Tahiri in power. I don't think that the quote is perspective of Nyax.

"Power flowed through Nyax, such power as no being alive had ever felt. He could reach down into this world, reach through the false crust beneath him, through the natural stone crust beneath that, all the way to where stone turned to sluggish fluid and through to where superheated metals ran like river water."
--Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand

Even if Luke was jobbing, we know that it doesn't drop him from being one of the most powerful force users in history to being one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. He also had same amp as Nyax. One-shoting Arcann, overwhelming a jedi strike team, severely injuring Revan etc. All of them aren't out of Nyax's range. Being superior to Luke, Mara and Tahiri in power is better than all of them imo. I never say that Valkorion doesn't stand a chance against Nyax. My contention is this; Valkorion can't one-shot Nyax.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 12th 2020, 4:57 am
@The Rich Man wrote:I have another quote saying Nyax is superior than Luke, Mara and Tahiri in power. I don't think that the quote is perspective of Nyax.

"Power flowed through Nyax, such power as no being alive had ever felt. He could reach down into this world, reach through the false crust beneath him, through the natural stone crust beneath that, all the way to where stone turned to sluggish fluid and through to where superheated metals ran like river water."
--Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand

Even if Luke was jobbing, we know that it doesn't drop him from being one of the most powerful force users in history to being one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. He also had same amp as Nyax. One-shoting Arcann, overwhelming a jedi strike team, severely injuring Revan etc. All of them aren't out of Nyax's range. Being superior to Luke, Mara and Tahiri in power is better than all of them imo. I never say that Valkorion doesn't stand a chance against Nyax. My contention is this; Valkorion can't one-shot Nyax.

Anybody who drinks in power from an external source, or have a Oneness moment, experience something significant at the time.

For example:

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Malgus: Deceived

He then proceeds to destroy his chief rival Lord Adraas and his stronghold with him.

---

The statement you shared suggest that Lord Nyax was able to tap into an external source of power to fuel his own on a deeper level than anybody alive at the time. It does not suggest that Lord Nyax experienced a surge of power greater than any other being in history or something on these lines.

---

I have already explained to you that there is much difference between how Luke Skywalker choose to engage an opponent and how Valkorion choose to engage an opponent. Luke adopted conventional approaches for the needful in large part (Lightsaber and Telekinetic powers) whereas Valkorion make use of esoteric but extremely potent techniques to breach defenses of an opponent. Luke's methods have therefore resulted in a prolonged engagement at times.

I have already explained to you WHAT happens when even a remarkably powerful Force-user has no counter to a particular technique (from another remarkably powerful Force-user) - the fight ends badly for the former under these circumstances. I provided examples of both Luke (vs. Exar Kun) and Arcann (vs. Valkorion) to make this point clear.

Valkorion is a like a FORCE WIZARD and his effectiveness vary from application to application. Up against him, you may never know what kind of power he can produce/unleash on a moment's notice. This is apparent from some of his powers which are not witnessed otherwise.

Easy for you to declare that Lord Nyax could replicate showings of Valkorion - with what? With his dueling skills, Telepathy and Telekinetic powers? No, my friend, this isn't going to work and this is exactly the point in SWTOR game; that the Emperor is armed with incalculable powers of corruption and destruction - no one stand a chance against him. SWTOR protagonists and Revan (Reborn) aren't fodder to anybody else in the galaxy - each have remarkable accomplishments under his/her belt otherwise. Entire conventional armies fail to stop these guys at any point. There are a few Force-users in the Old Republic timeline who have shown as much power as Lord Nyax at some point if not greater - don't be under any illusion. For instance, Lord Fulminiss once leveled an entire city of rebels on a planet (Jabiim system) with a rage-fueled storm of pure dark side energy from AFAR; he was proficient in techniques suited to mass killings and destruction and was openly regarded as one of the greatest masters of Sith Sorcery in the history of the Empire. Yet, Hero of Tython sought him out on Voss, fought him and managed to defeat/kill him in single combat - a substantial blow to the Empire. Hero of Tython also encountered, fought, and defeated some members of the Dark Council on Corellia - one of these was Darth Decimus who was/is officially counted among the most powerful warriors of the Empire and famous for making an entire army submit to him with just his telepathic abilities.

If WE consider LINEAR scaling approach to gauge strength of every character than Valkorion is indeed the most powerful Force-user [ever]. Want to go down this route with me?

It does not matter how much strength you are packing, techniques are equally important and make hell of a difference.

Even if I give your view the benefit of doubt that Lord Nyax will put up a fight against Valkorion, he is DOOMED regardless. I am showing much respect to your views; understand this.
The Rich Man
The Rich Man

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 13th 2020, 5:04 am
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@The Rich Man wrote:I have another quote saying Nyax is superior than Luke, Mara and Tahiri in power. I don't think that the quote is perspective of Nyax.

"Power flowed through Nyax, such power as no being alive had ever felt. He could reach down into this world, reach through the false crust beneath him, through the natural stone crust beneath that, all the way to where stone turned to sluggish fluid and through to where superheated metals ran like river water."
--Enemy Lines II: Rebel Stand

Even if Luke was jobbing, we know that it doesn't drop him from being one of the most powerful force users in history to being one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. He also had same amp as Nyax. One-shoting Arcann, overwhelming a jedi strike team, severely injuring Revan etc. All of them aren't out of Nyax's range. Being superior to Luke, Mara and Tahiri in power is better than all of them imo. I never say that Valkorion doesn't stand a chance against Nyax. My contention is this; Valkorion can't one-shot Nyax.

Anybody who drinks in power from an external source, or have a Oneness moment, experience something significant at the time.

For example:

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Malgus: Deceived

He then proceeds to destroy his chief rival Lord Adraas and his stronghold with him.

---

The statement you shared suggest that Lord Nyax was able to tap into an external source of power to fuel his own on a deeper level than anybody alive at the time. It does not suggest that Lord Nyax experienced a surge of power greater than any other being in history or something on these lines.

---

I have already explained to you that there is much difference between how Luke Skywalker choose to engage an opponent and how Valkorion choose to engage an opponent. Luke adopted conventional approaches for the needful in large part (Lightsaber and Telekinetic powers) whereas Valkorion make use of esoteric but extremely potent techniques to breach defenses of an opponent. Luke's methods have therefore resulted in a prolonged engagement at times.

I have already explained to you WHAT happens when even a remarkably powerful Force-user has no counter to a particular technique (from another remarkably powerful Force-user) - the fight ends badly for the former under these circumstances. I provided examples of both Luke (vs. Exar Kun) and Arcann (vs. Valkorion) to make this point clear.

Valkorion is a like a FORCE WIZARD and his effectiveness vary from application to application. Up against him, you may never know what kind of power he can produce/unleash on a moment's notice. This is apparent from some of his powers which are not witnessed otherwise.

Easy for you to declare that Lord Nyax could replicate showings of Valkorion - with what? With his dueling skills, Telepathy and Telekinetic powers? No, my friend, this isn't going to work and this is exactly the point in SWTOR game; that the Emperor is armed with incalculable powers of corruption and destruction - no one stand a chance against him. SWTOR protagonists and Revan (Reborn) aren't fodder to anybody else in the galaxy - each have remarkable accomplishments under his/her belt otherwise. Entire conventional armies fail to stop these guys at any point. There are a few Force-users in the Old Republic timeline who have shown as much power as Lord Nyax at some point if not greater - don't be under any illusion. For instance, Lord Fulminiss once leveled an entire city of rebels on a planet (Jabiim system) with a rage-fueled storm of pure dark side energy from AFAR; he was proficient in techniques suited to mass killings and destruction and was openly regarded as one of the greatest masters of Sith Sorcery in the history of the Empire. Yet, Hero of Tython sought him out on Voss, fought him and managed to defeat/kill him in single combat - a substantial blow to the Empire. Hero of Tython also encountered, fought, and defeated some members of the Dark Council on Corellia - one of these was Darth Decimus who was/is officially counted among the most powerful warriors of the Empire and famous for making an entire army submit to him with just his telepathic abilities.

If WE consider LINEAR scaling approach to gauge strength of every character than Valkorion is indeed the most powerful Force-user [ever]. Want to go down this route with me?

It does not matter how much strength you are packing, techniques are equally important and make hell of a difference.

Even if I give your view the benefit of doubt that Lord Nyax will put up a fight against Valkorion, he is DOOMED regardless. I am showing much respect to your views; understand this.
Even if Luke uses only force abilities while fighting Nyax, it doesn't change much. He already used the force always. They couldn't surpass Nyax's force augmentation although they used the same amp as Nyax. You think that Valkorion one-shots Nyax but even Luke and others couldn't do it, how could Valkorion do it? Even if Luke jobs, it doesn't drop him from being one of the most powerful force users in history to being one-shotable fodder for Valkorion. As for the quote, Nyax was stated to be superior to Luke, Mara and Tahiri in power. Even if Luke jobs, he still has his full raw power. As I said, I never say that Valkorion doesn't stand a chance against Nyax. My contention is this; Valkorion can't one-shot Nyax.
Geistalt
Geistalt

Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped) - Page 2 Empty Re: Valkorion Vs. Irek Ismaren (Amped)

on June 13th 2020, 10:01 pm
Irek beats both Valkorion and prime Luke.
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