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Latham2000
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 23rd 2020, 4:17 pm
I know that the answer to this match up may seem obvious to many, but I would like know to by what extent that the victor wins. Simply saying "Qui-Gon wins" is quite possibly the most useless answer you could give, so please specify the extent of the winner's victory is, and explain why.
Latham2000
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 23rd 2020, 4:22 pm
Fight takes place in Waffle House, btw.
CuckedCurry
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 23rd 2020, 4:24 pm
Windu wrecks, because he’s factually above Jedi that are decisively above Qui-Gon, such as Yaddle, Dooku, Jorus, Tiin etc
HellfireUnit
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 23rd 2020, 4:28 pm
Qui-Gon loses due to hate crime
Latham2000
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 23rd 2020, 4:39 pm
Jedi Dooku is above TPM Mace though.
CuckedCurry
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 23rd 2020, 5:52 pm
No, he’s not
KingofBlades
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 10:31 am
@CuckedCurry wrote:No, he’s not
Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) 39523600

Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) 91628810

He was a remarkable teacher and, of all those in the Temple, arguably the most skilled with a lightsaber.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #12

His progress was exceptional, and many thought he was the deadliest of all the Jedi in combat.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #12

“You were never able to defeat me at the Jedi Temple, and you won’t defeat me now.”

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Lightsaber Duels

In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents have ever overcome Master Windu in battle. One was Master Yoda himself, whom some say is the Jedi Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was Master Dooku.

Star Wars Miniatures Revenge of the Sith Preview 1 Mace Windu, Jedi Master

In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

Star Wars: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him; Yoda, and Dooku.

Starwars.com - Mace Windu Databank (Old)

His skills with his purple-bladed lightsaber were the stuff of legend, and it was said that he could be defeated in combat only by Master Yoda and the great swordsman Count Dooku.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #33
Latham2000
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 10:34 am
Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) 1289255181
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LOTL

Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 11:23 am
The Clone Wars Lightsaber Duels cutscenes are not to be taken literally, lol. If you do then Mace too has a dialogue proclaiming his superiority to the Count. Every other character on beating someone has a dialogue proclaiming that sort of thing

It is quite telling that none of those statements are conclusive. Yeah Dooku and Yoda are the only people to beat Mace but not "TPM Mace" because nothing indicates that. It can very well be that they beat Mace many years before TPM. The rest of the statements are uncertainties or character opinions which are not to be taken as pretty definitive. 

Meanwhile Mace has 2 conclusive statements putting his combat ability over the Count. Mace is also flat out stated to be more powerful.
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 11:36 am
what LOTL said
O-Siri
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 1:24 pm
Not close. Entertaining maybe but it shouldn’t be particularly hard for the Master of the Order. I’m probably one of the few people who have TPM close to his CW iteration.
KingofBlades
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 3:57 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The Clone Wars Lightsaber Duels cutscenes are not to be taken literally, lol. If you do then Mace too has a dialogue proclaiming his superiority to the Count. Every other character on beating someone has a dialogue proclaiming that sort of thing



Why shouldn't we take the quote literally? Also, I'd have to see the quote you're referring to in order to make a conclusive judgement, but I'm going to take a guess and assume its CW Mace talking about he's better than CW Dooku. In which case it has 0 relevance in a TPM Dooku vs Mace discussion.


It is quite telling that none of those statements are conclusive. Yeah Dooku and Yoda are the only people to beat Mace but not "TPM Mace" because nothing indicates that. It can very well be that they beat Mace many years before TPM. The rest of the statements are uncertainties or character opinions which are not to be taken as pretty definitive. 


It's not iron clad definitive yes, but when looking at all the quotes, a painting begins to take shape, and its message is hard to ignore. 2 OOU* sources state Dooku is arguably the greatest duelist in the order. Many Jedi believe he's the most lethal jedi in the order. It's said he, alongside yoda, is one of 2 people capable of defeating Windu in combat. The last 2 are important. OFC#33 tells us that it is believed by presumably the jedi,(since no one else would have the capacity to even hold an opinion on the topic) that Jedi Dooku is capable of defeating Windu. And since Dooku was a jedi as of TPM, the quotes apply to TPM. There's no logical reason for a quote talking about Jedi Dooku to arbitrarily stop applying as of TPM, especially if there's some shift in the Dooku v Mace dynamic. Like, consider how asinine the alternative is. If it was no longer believed among the jedi that Dooku was above Windu circa TPM, the quote becomes utterly pointless and misleading. Do you think the writers went, "Hey lets make a quote conveying an outdated opinion from an undisclosed time period never depicted in lore while also failing to mention the shift in opinion"? The above reasoning applies to OFC#12 as well. Which makes your point about there possibly being years between their last duel and TPM more or less irrelevant. The OFC quotes inform us that the jedi order believes Dooku> Mace circa TPM, so apparently Mace hasn't improved enough in the undisclosed time between TPM and their last match for the Jedi to revise their opinions. Thus, contrary to your belief, we do in fact have 2 sources that put Dooku above Mace overall circa TPM, with 2 OOU sources putting Dooku arguably above even Yoda as a duelist.






Meanwhile Mace has 2 conclusive statements putting his combat ability over the Count. Mace is also flat out stated to be more powerful.

I'd like to see the 2 combat quotes you're referring to if you'd be kind enough to provide them. And if you're referring to this quote when you say Mace is stated to be more powerful:



Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) 6865821-6434375251-3150643014723353696%25253Faccount_id%25253D1The%2520Official%2520Star%2520Wars%2520Fact%2520File%2C%2520Part%25202



then it should be noted Fact Files is an IU source written by historians. Meaning your uncertainty argument would also affect your own source. And I think the character opinions you mocked actually have more authority than the above quote. My sources that say Dooku> Mace combatively are the opinions of the jedi order circa TPM, yours is the speculation of NR historians living decades after the fact. So not only would my sources be more authoritative than this quote on the virtue of them being circa TPM, a jedi's opinion has infinitely greater value than a non force sensitive historian's since a jedi has an infinitely greater understanding of the force and how power is conveyed through combat. 


But, even if Mace was undeniably more powerful and skilled in saber combat than Dooku, that fails to contradict Dooku being overall the more deadly combatant. It's possible that his power and skill are close enough to Windu's that his superior force mastery sends him over the edge:



Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our greatest student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our greatest failure."



Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) 2019-12-30_18


So yeah, I agree that Jedi Dooku isn't conclusively above Mace, but I do think the evidence is strong enough to say he's probably >/=



*the first 2 quotes in my first post


Last edited by KingofBlades on June 2nd 2020, 3:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
Latham2000
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 4:00 pm
I can't read like 60% of your post because it's in grey.
KingofBlades
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 4:07 pm
yeah I wrote the response in dark mode. It should be fixed now
KingofBlades
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 4:38 pm
Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Image011
-Heroes and Villains Flipbook

Here's another quote affirming Jedi Dooku's saber skill
avatar
LOTL

Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 5:28 pm
It's not iron clad definitive yes, but when looking at all the quotes, a painting begins to take shape, and its message is hard to ignore. 2 OOU* sources state Dooku is arguably the greatest duelist in the order. Many Jedi believe he's the most lethal jedi in the order. It's said he, alongside yoda, is one of 2 people capable of defeating Windu in combat. The last 2 are important. OFC#33 tells us that it is believed by presumably the jedi,(since no one else would have the capacity to even hold an opinion on the topic) that Jedi Dooku is capable of defeating Windu. And since Dooku was a jedi as of TPM, the quotes apply to TPM. There's no logical reason for a quote talking about Jedi Dooku to arbitrarily stop applying as of TPM, especially if there's some shift in the Dooku v Mace dynamic. Like, consider how asinine the alternative is. If it was no longer believed among the jedi that Dooku was above Windu circa TPM, the quote becomes utterly pointless and misleading. Do you think the writers went, "Hey lets make a quote conveying an outdated opinion from an undisclosed time period never depicted in lore while also failing to mention the shift in opinion"? The above reasoning applies to OFC#12 as well. Which makes your point about there possibly being years between their last duel and TPM more or less irrelevant. The OFC quotes inform us that the jedi order believes Dooku> Mace circa TPM, so apparently Mace hasn't improved enough in the undisclosed time between TPM and their last match for the Jedi to revise their opinions. Thus, contrary to your belief, we do in fact have 2 sources that put Dooku above Mace overall circa TPM, with 2 OOU sources putting Dooku arguably above even Yoda as a duelist.


Bro writers couldn't care less about "shift in opinion" lmao. Their main agenda is to hype Mace, not create an almanac detailing every little power shift that happens in the lore, or even remotely bother to track them unless it served a very important function to the story( eg. Anakin's power growth) there. There is nothing resembling a hive mind process that collectively decides by tracking and noting every power level of every character and their change across the story. Most of the power growth quotes are completely random, and most certainly do not represent the main intent of people like Lucas or the story group and are greenlit simply because they do not contradict anything. 


I do think you are hand waving the topic away, which is not even considering any concrete reasoning hence I'll reiterate: Nothing is irrelevant. The quotes specifically make mention of the only 2 Jedi to ever beat Mace in their spars which are Yoda and Dooku. 

That is it. Nothing else. It is essentially hyping up Mace( given that the character entries are about him, not Dooku) by saying that literally no one else in the Order was able to beat him "in history" other than Dooku or Yoda. I'll point out that "in history" is emphasized. The semantic function of the paraphrase is to convey that no one has ever managed to beat Mace other than Dooku or Yoda, ever in the history of the Order

Which is a perfectly fine "holistic interpretation" of the situation that need not necessarily have to conform to the very notion that "It must refer to TPM else what is the point" lol. What is the point? The point is that Mace is that good that no one has ever managed to beat him at all. Never. Other than these two. 

That doesn't even mean that they consistently beat him( the only thing that is conveyed is that they somehow managed to overcome him meaning at worst, they managed to not lose every single time) or beat him more than he beat them, only that they managed to beat him, much less the notion that they have had to necessarily beat him even by TPM. 

Let me point out the key phrases

"In history"

"Ever overcame"

So yeah, you are trying to create an interpretation that is along the lines of

"Around TPM"

"Consistently overcame"

The point is probably clear

Coming to the opinions of Jedi, similar logic applies because the common Jedi is much more interested in whatever role they have to complete than maintaining a logbook of the power and combat effectiveness level of each Jedi and how it changes with time. Most go by past reputation, and Mace there is merely a newcomer. Dooku's reputation has been established pretty firmly, and it is pretty easy to assume that early on, Mace lost to him consistently. I can assure you, that alone would have been more than enough to cement an opinion in their mind, not to mention most sparring sessions are not in front of a general audience and are private. Even if they are, the audience is generally not the same. Thus even if they wanted to, it is pretty unlikely that more than a select few Jedi even witnessed their combat spars let alone track them so the "common opinion" of the Jedi pretty much is meaningless other than serving as cool intent. 

For what it is worth, many statements point out that the common opinion is that Mace is equal to Dooku. While you might write those off as contradictions I think an easy reconciliation can be that Dooku was indeed better in the early part of Mace's career but Mace catches on to him( not surprising given his noticeably greater potential) later on, which is reflected well in general opinion. 


Only Masters Yoda and Mace Windu were considered to be on equal terms with him[Dooku]. 

Credit: Insider 109: Darth Maul versus Count Dooku


Only Mace himself ever mastered it, and it was reckoned that only Master Yoda and Dooku were ever able to match Windu with a lightsaber.

Credit: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #25


Any attempt to reconcile the quotes can simply chart out the obvious conclusion: Dooku can beat Mace more times than the reverse early on which is why he got that reputation. However, Mace catches on and wins against him multiple times later on, to the point that people then thought that they are equals then, changing their opinion on who was a more effective combatant

I'd like to see the 2 combat quotes you're referring to if you'd be kind enough to provide them. And if you're referring to this quote when you say Mace is stated to be more powerful:

Yeah


Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.
....

Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Credit: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

That is among the quotes yeah. First of all, source for them being IU and compiled by NR historians then? 

If true, fair point. But it must be noted that it is not really contradicted here, and quotes like that:


Mace Windu is the most powerful warrior on the Jedi Council.
....
Mace Windu is a powerhouse of a Jedi. He is the strongest and toughest of them all.

Credit: Star Wars Obi-Wan Prima Guide

Only cement that notion further. 

At this point, it is important to note one more detail: Mace has many quotes proclaiming his parity to Yoda in TPM in terms of power. 

Hence you have:

1. Fact File quote putting him above Dooku in power

2. Prima Guide quote putting him above Dooku in power

3. Many quotes putting him on par with Yoda in power, a guy who is certainly above the Count there

All that paints a pretty clear picture of him being more powerful than the Count


But, even if Mace was undeniably more powerful and skilled in saber combat than Dooku, that fails to contradict Dooku being overall the more deadly combatant. It's possible that his power and skill are close enough to Windu's that his superior force mastery sends him over the edge:

Yeah his knowledge and mastery being above Mace is pretty evident. That does not necessarily indicate that Dooku would win in combat though


Last edited by LOTL on May 24th 2020, 5:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
avatar
LOTL

Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 5:32 pm
The last quote is also a point in favor of Mace

All in all, I think Mace is more powerful, and Dooku has better mastery. In all out combat, they are probably equal
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 5:41 pm
so we are gonna ignore the part where most of those statements say "reputed to be" or "considered to be" or the one that KoB posted says he was "known" as a match for Windu. lol, none of this is definitive just means his reputation as a swordmaster was legendary
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 9:22 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Bro writers couldn't care less about "shift in opinion" lmao. Their main agenda is to hype Mace, not create an almanac detailing every little power shift that happens in the lore, or even remotely bother to track them unless it served a very important function to the story( eg. Anakin's power growth) there. There is nothing resembling a hive mind process that collectively decides by tracking and noting every power level of every character and their change across the story. Most of the power growth quotes are completely random, and most certainly do not represent the main intent of people like Lucas or the story group and are greenlit simply because they do not contradict anything. 


That wasn't really my point. My point was that there's no logical reason to assume the quotes don't apply circa TPM. The shift in opinion bit was just to illustrate the retarded logic of the alternative. Dooku was a jedi as of TPM, ergo the quotes should apply.


I do think you are hand waving the topic away, which is not even considering any concrete reasoning hence I'll reiterate: Nothing is irrelevant. The quotes specifically make mention of the only 2 Jedi to ever beat Mace in their spars which are Yoda and Dooku. 

That is it. Nothing else. It is essentially hyping up Mace( given that the character entries are about him, not Dooku) by saying that literally no one else in the Order was able to beat him "in history" other than Dooku or Yoda. I'll point out that "in history" is emphasized. The semantic function of the paraphrase is to convey that no one has ever managed to beat Mace other than Dooku or Yoda, ever in the history of the Order


I think you're mistaking which quote I'm referring to. These are the quotes you're seemingly referring to:




In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents have ever overcome Master Windu in battle. One was Master Yoda himself, whom some say is the Jedi Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was Master Dooku.

Star Wars Miniatures Revenge of the Sith Preview 1 Mace Windu, Jedi Master




In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

Star Wars: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook



n his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him; Yoda, and Dooku.

Starwars.com - Mace Windu Databank (Old)

I agree with your analysis in respect to these quotes, however the quote I'm referring to is a bit different:





His skills with his purple-bladed lightsaber were the stuff of legend, and it was said that he could be defeated in combat only by Master Yoda and the great swordsman Count Dooku.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #33

This quote is markedly different from the previous ones shown. The 3 previous quotes were relaying information about past events. Nothing more, nothing less. This quote on the other hand, is informing us of a belief,(I.E it is said) presumably of the jedi order, that Windu could be defeated by Dooku. Meaning per the jedi, Jedi Dooku>TPM Windu. This ties back into my earlier point. Since idea that the quote doesn't apply circa TPM is completely baseless and arbitrary(and with no quotes saying there was a shift in opinion among the jedi by TPM), we can go ahead and use this to say TPM Dooku>TPM Windu combatively. The exact same logic applies to OFC#12:





His progress was exceptional, and many thought he was the deadliest of all the Jedi in combat.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #12


Thus, we have two quotes putting TPM Dooku>TPM Windu combatively.




That doesn't even mean that they consistently beat him( the only thing that is conveyed is that they somehow managed to overcome him meaning at worst, they managed to not lose every single time) or beat him more than he beat them, only that they managed to beat him, much less the notion that they have had to necessarily beat him even by TPM. 

While I can't speak on Yoda's record against Windu, we know that Windu has never defeated Dooku in a duel per the quote I provided earlier:




“You were never able to defeat me at the Jedi Temple, and you won’t defeat me now.”

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Lightsaber Duels

There's a distinct difference between this quote and the various others found within the game. Most quotes found within the game, are various forms of opinions. Take the Mace> Dooku quote you referred to earlier. Mace claims that the count's saber skills have declined if he wins(opinion), whereas if Dooku wins, he'll note Dooku's skills are as sharp as ever(funny how both of these remarks fit nicely with the one I've provided). Plo Koon says Mace's saber skills are >Yoda(opinion) and etc. The Dooku quote I've provided, however, is not opinion based. It's Dooku relaying past events that have occured as a form of insult. So while we can chalk up the various other quotes as just more character opinions whose accuracy is debatable, this quote is telling us factual events that happened. We can trust Dooku here, because the insult is pointless if he's lying, and Windu would obviously know if Dooku was lying, So yes, Jedi Dooku has never lost a duel to Windu, which would help explain why the order views Dooku>Windu.  




Coming to the opinions of Jedi, similar logic applies because the common Jedi is much more interested in whatever role they have to complete than maintaining a logbook of the power and combat effectiveness level of each Jedi and how it changes with time. Most go by past reputation, and Mace there is merely a newcomer. Dooku's reputation has been established pretty firmly, and it is pretty easy to assume that early on, Mace lost to him consistently. I can assure you, that alone would have been more than enough to cement an opinion in their mind, not to mention most sparring sessions are not in front of a general audience and are private. Even if they are, the audience is generally not the same. Thus even if they wanted to, it is pretty unlikely that more than a select few Jedi even witnessed their combat spars let alone track them so the "common opinion" of the Jedi pretty much is meaningless other than serving as cool intent. 


I think its probably true that not every jedi has seen Dooku and Mace go at it, but that doesn't change the fact that these opinions would be derived from jedi who have seen what Dooku and Windu can do. This isn't even limited to Dooku v Windu duels. Given the quotes are of a overall combative context, I think its probably the case that they're considering factors beyond just their 1v1s(in which Dooku always wins). I mean they could even be comparing how Dooku and Windu fare against other jedi, like Yoda for instance. Perhaps Dooku performs better against the Green Frog than Mace does. Renown probably plays a role yes, but considering Windu is also a living legend, I'm not inclined to think Dooku's renown is going to sway opinion to any meaningful degree. I mean Mace was given a seat on the high council at age 28 lol, a feat that is basically unprecedented in the history of the jedi order. He definitely isn't suffering from bias against the unknown. So yeah, I think overall the jedi order's opinion is extremely reliable as far as IU sources go.




For what it is worth, many statements point out that the common opinion is that Mace is equal to Dooku. While you might write those off as contradictions I think an easy reconciliation can be that Dooku was indeed better in the early part of Mace's career but Mace catches on to him( not surprising given his noticeably greater potential) later on, which is reflected well in general opinion. 

  I think its more like we have a baseline of Mace=Dooku in sabers,(as indicated by your Insider and TOS&VC quotes, as well as the Heroes and Villains Flipbook I sent), with any edge being given to Dooku on the basis of him being "possibly" and "arguably" the greatest duelist in the order.



Any attempt to reconcile the quotes can simply chart out the obvious conclusion: Dooku can beat Mace more times than the reverse early on which is why he got that reputation. However, Mace catches on and wins against him multiple times later on, to the point that people then thought that they are equals then, changing their opinion on who was a more effective combatant

Well, as I went over earlier, Jedi Dooku has never lost to Windu in a duel, so there goes your theory about opinion shifting over time. Besides, those quotes you've sent are OOU(like the aforementioned "arguably" and "possibly" quotes), they aren't reflective of the Jedi Order's opinion. 




Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.
....

Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Credit: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

Given you sent another source from The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection, which states Mace was equal to Master Dooku in sabers, I think its the case that Windu eclipsed Dooku after he left the order rather than while he was still a member. Otherwise we have conflicting information from the same source lol.




That is among the quotes yeah. First of all, source for them being IU and compiled by NR historians then? 

If true, fair point. But it must be noted that it is not really contradicted here, and quotes like that:

Here you go link



Note I'm not saying Fact Files in wrong here. I'm fine with TPM Windu being > in power, but I think we can agree it isn't enough to say Windu is above as an overall combatant.


Mace Windu is the most powerful warrior on the Jedi Council.
....
Mace Windu is a powerhouse of a Jedi. He is the strongest and toughest of them all.

Credit: Star Wars Obi-Wan Prima Guide


So it is my understanding that the obi wan prima guide is a gameplay only source, so its statements would apply to Windu in game, not in lore. If that isn't the case I'd be happy to be corrected. Though it should be noted the first quote is irrelevant since Dooku is not a member of the jedi council.  If it is apart of the lore, please specify if its IU, OOU, or IU omni.



So to summarize:


1. Windu has 2 OOU sources putting him = Dooku in sabers circa TPM, and another referring to post TPM.(only the first 2 are relevant)



2. Dooku has 2 OOU sources saying he's "arguably" and "possibly" the greatest duelist in the jedi Order 




3. 2 OOU sources say Dooku is > Windu as an overall combatant according to the extremely reliable IU source that is the Jedi Order




4. Jedi Dooku has never lost to Windu in a duel, supporting the Jedi Order's opinion and the OOU sources mentioned in point #2.




5. Mace is more powerful than Dooku per IU historians, which even if true, fails to contradict point #3.



6. Dooku is more knowledgeable and masterful in the ways of the force than Windu, which lends credence to the idea that Dooku can be > Windu as an overall combatant even if point #5 is true



So yeah basically the way I see it is TPM Dooku and Mace are basically equals in sabers, with a slight edge being given to Dooku. Couple this with his sizable force mastery/knowledge edge and I think Dooku is above in an all out scenario by a small to decent margin, even if Mace is more powerful(which isn't very solid), a stance that is backed by the opinion of the Jedi Order.


Last edited by KingofBlades on May 24th 2020, 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 9:52 pm
@KingofBlades Why do you have massive gaps between paragraphs?

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KingofBlades
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 24th 2020, 9:56 pm
Didn't notice. my apologies
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 25th 2020, 1:38 am
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This quote is markedly different from the previous ones shown. The 3 previous quotes were relaying information about past events. Nothing more, nothing less. This quote on the other hand, is informing us of a belief,(I.E it is said) presumably of the jedi order, that Windu could be defeated by Dooku. Meaning per the jedi, Jedi Dooku>TPM Windu. This ties back into my earlier point. Since idea that the quote doesn't apply circa TPM is completely baseless and arbitrary(and with no quotes saying there was a shift in opinion among the jedi by TPM), we can go ahead and use this to say TPM Dooku>TPM Windu combatively. The exact same logic applies to OFC#12:

Again, the exact same point applies here: Just because Yoda and Dooku "could" defeat Mace, doesn't mean that they "will" defeat Mace for certain. Near equals may win/lose based on random factors and it is pretty clear that Yoda/Mace/Dooku are in a league of their own with no competition. Again, look at the earlier point, Yoda and Dooku were the only ones that beat Mace, hence it is not unreasonable to assume that "people" think they could go on beating Mace, even if Mace catches on later

It is the same as saying

"Palpatine was the only one who could defeat Yoda"

Or for Yoda there:

"He was the only one who could defeat Palpatine"

Both quotes are correct. Yet we know that they are relative equals in pretty much every all parameters of combat. Now, if only one of those quotes are shown, we do not then form the assumption that the balance of the fight is tilted in favor of the person in the quote

The fact that "it is said" need not mean that it is the belief of the entire Jedi Order or even the Jedi that were close to them personally. 


Thus, we have two quotes putting TPM Dooku>TPM Windu combatively.



Which is again an IU perspective which might be nothing more than general perception which is hardly conclusive( you don't need the count of instances where a Jedi commenting on another Jedi's power has been wrong)



There's a distinct difference between this quote and the various others found within the game. Most quotes found within the game, are various forms of opinions. Take the Mace> Dooku quote you referred to earlier. Mace claims that the count's saber skills have declined if he wins(opinion), whereas if Dooku wins, he'll note Dooku's skills are as sharp as ever(funny how both of these remarks fit nicely with the one I've provided). Plo Koon says Mace's saber skills are >Yoda(opinion) and etc. The Dooku quote I've provided, however, is not opinion based. It's Dooku relaying past events that have occured as a form of insult. So while we can chalk up the various other quotes as just more character opinions whose accuracy is debatable, this quote is telling us factual events that happened. We can trust Dooku here, because the insult is pointless if he's lying, and Windu would obviously know if Dooku was lying, So yes, Jedi Dooku has never lost a duel to Windu, which would help explain why the order views Dooku>Windu.  

First of all, I looked into the game more deeply and found that those battles aren't even a part of the main story. They are all the cutscenes that are generated on the vs match fights with various characters

This means there is a cutscene for every pairing of the game characters imaginable. Alternating between them winning or losing. With that in mind, the scene of Obi Wan force pushing the Count is much more canonical than those cutscenes especially as they do not fit into the official lore( the lightsaber battles are not a part of the story), which automatically reduces their canonical value a lot. In fact, I see little reason to take any of them literally given they are riddled with inaccuracies( meaning the story group didn't bother correcting any inaccurate statements meaning they don't consider the scenes to be a part of canon) that are pretty hilarious in nature. 

However, even without that, your analysis is not making any sense. People repeatedly outright lie when taunting, even when the opponent knows they are lying. That is the point of taunting. To mentally imbalance the opponent by any means possible, even telling outright lies to get that 

To prove that point, Bruck Chun taunts Obi Wan by saying he was always better than him in their sparring matches even though Obi Wan beats him twice in the same novel( the second time stomping him) hence there is no reason to assume that people have to be truthful. Yoda remarks on the Count that his skills have reduced in their fight on Tatooine in the comic, when we know that he very well thinks that the opposite is true. Note that that is not an opinion, Yoda can tell whether Dooku has improved or declined pretty objectively and Dooku knows that Yoda can tell that


  I think its more like we have a baseline of Mace=Dooku in sabers,(as indicated by your Insider and TOS&VC quotes, as well as the Heroes and Villains Flipbook I sent), with any edge being given to Dooku on the basis of him being "possibly" and "arguably" the greatest duelist in the order.

Again, objective, OOU quotes put them as equal whereas the Count is portrayed as better only on reputation. This is not a case of averaging out the quotes because the point on reputation has a very clear counter


Given you sent another source from The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection, which states Mace was equal to Master Dooku in sabers, I think its the case that Windu eclipsed Dooku after he left the order rather than while he was still a member. Otherwise we have conflicting information from the same source lol.

That is not objective narration but IU limited perspective opinion of the Jedi( again a case of character opinion conflicting with reality)

Also it is worth noting that even the character opinion doesn't conflict really. The phrase "only ever able to match" can be interpreted in many ways which do not conflict with the objective narration


Well, as I went over earlier, Jedi Dooku has never lost to Windu in a duel, so there goes your theory about opinion shifting over time. Besides, those quotes you've sent are OOU(like the aforementioned "arguably" and "possibly" quotes), they aren't reflective of the Jedi Order's opinion. 

They are OOU narration on the "IU perspective" of the Jedi 


So it is my understanding that the obi wan prima guide is a gameplay only source, so its statements would apply to Windu in game, not in lore. If that isn't the case I'd be happy to be corrected. Though it should be noted the first quote is irrelevant since Dooku is not a member of the jedi council.  If it is apart of the lore, please specify if its IU, OOU, or IU omni.

Better check with Ant on that. He gave those quotes so he must be aware

Even then, I don't think the entire guide is from an IU gameplay perspective, only some sections though
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 25th 2020, 6:10 am
Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) 1668617588
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 25th 2020, 1:34 pm
Mace, not debatable
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

on May 27th 2020, 3:51 am
Well, I had a response to LotL that was nearing completion, but I accidentally closed the tab that had the response.So it will be a while longer before it reaches here as I have to retype it
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Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM) Empty Re: Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM) vs Mace Windu (TPM)

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