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Vader's Legacy
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on May 12th 2020, 1:17 pm
@LOTL wrote:It didn't happen. It was a hypothetical scenario

Right but what is the source for the Hypothetical? I would like to know because that's great for Kenobi hype tbh
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on May 12th 2020, 1:50 pm
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DC wrote:
DC wrote:Some ay you might learn how to type out a post whilst actually keeping concise. That wall of shit was a pain to trudge through. Anyhow:

Well considering you just tried to hand-wave my entire post, I guess that's what you consider "concise" which is just lazy. I apologize for putting in more effort than your half-assed excuse based argumentation.


DC wrote:
DC wrote:People with glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

The irony here being that your argument is as fragile as glass and yet you continue to throw stones.

DC wrote:
He's not saying they're not "real Jedi" because they aren't as "fast or energetic", he's saying that it's because they''re "crippled half-droid half-men", "young boys" etc etc. The nature of the choreography is not a reason for their status like you claim, it's the device used to convey it, as emphasised by it being mentioned after the initial reasoning provided.

You befuddle me. You start out acting like I am the one who doesn't understand the quote yet you proceed with this half-witted tripe.


George Lucas wrote:We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing.

Yes, I didn't deny that they were "half-men half-droid" and "old" but as I specified, it can't just be referring to age  Potential Matchups - Page 2 3363707401 since Luke is a "young boy" who "LEARNED from these old people." Obviously if the age was the reason that Ben and Vader were "not real Jedi" it wouldn't apply to Luke who learns the forms and sequences from these people but isn't encumbered by age, so it has to be referring to something else. If you think it refers to Luke being a "young boy" instead of someone who "learned from these old people" that's fine, but again incorrect since TPM Kenobi is 25 and Luke is 23 by Return of the Jedi, unless you think Lucas thinks a 3 year age difference separates Luke as a "young boy" or maybe like I said originally... it's the fact that he's a young boy who "learned from these old people."


DC wrote:Except that's literally all that's mentioned there...
  

I'm the one with reading comprehension issues amirite?
 
DC wrote:
That's a leap. It compares the two in an overall sense, technical skill is referenced nowhere throughout the quote.


You agree it's about Choreography yes? Your exact quote earlier was:

DC wrote:he's using the "faster and more energetic" choreography to convey that belief.

Which I never denied, we just disagree that it's specifically referring to age, and again it has to be technical skill because Luke "learning from these old people" is mentioned as a primary reason for why the OT Jedi are inferior to the PT.

DC wrote:
Vader never fights anyone throughout his early years that could be considered on par with TPM Kenobi and Jinn, who are the Jedi being discussed in the Lucas quote. Taking the insanely hyper literal approach is stupid, and goes against what Lucas is clearly talking about.

How is it stupid? Don't ever deign to appeal to "good faith debating" when you substitute things to fit your bias my good man. Believe it or not Gillard actually directed all of the PT Jedi's styles which as we have established are what make them "faster and more energetic." 

Since you want to use Lucas though, let's look to The Force Unleashed where Galen Marek is able to kill Shaak Ti and compete with her despite being trained by "a half-man half-droid" which again lends credence to the idea that even though the OT stylists are slower and different they are not necessarily locked beneath all of the PT as combatants. Oh and by the way, a more powerful version of Marek is given a relatively good fight by Vader by the end of the game.

Like honestly do you people think before you speak?

DC wrote:
Vader's own perceptions can't overrule Lucas's word, any advantage his strength afforded him is clearly irrelevant when contrasted with his overall combative efficiency being clearly beneath TPM Obi-Wan's.

That is the finest excuse for "I can't actually debate you on this so I appeal to higher sources" I've ever heard. The problem is my dear DC, these stories exist and are part of continuity you cannot just throw them away to substitute your version of the Canon, at least not for debating purposes. This quote doesn't even interfere with the lore anyway since it references something that can be easily explained away by other sources and by the specific word choice he uses. 

There is working with the universe you have, and then there is walking a narrow-minded path and taking everything at face value, you should choose to do the former not the latter.
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on May 12th 2020, 1:55 pm
@LOTL wrote:
Running at 600kph, blocking omnidirectional blaster fire from 10,000 battle droids, fighting Anakin Skywalker head-to-head—these feats should be well beyond what he should be able to do. So yes, he’s the greatest.

Or his potential is that great? Yoda has Mace, Anakin and late CW Ahsoka teaming to fight Obi Wan who has turned, which shows how much more powerful he can become if he turns to the dark side. Ventress outright says that Dooku sees "great promise" in Obi Wan and that he can "easily" replace her, and we know how much potential Ventress really has meaning his own potential is actually vast.

The text doesn't have to eulogize his power or talent every time like Anakin lol. He has enough quotes putting him as a powerhouse clearly. The reason that the text is not ringing with his power or potential in the force is because his role as a character and in the lore is much more than just being a big muscleman for the Jedi( unlike Anakin who literally has nothing to his character other than being powerful) hence they are lost among real character development


Did I say he had lagging potential Eugene? I said he has inferior potential, as in, inferior to Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Dooku, and probably a fair few others of the time. And yet, do you see Yoda, Mace, or Sidious running at 600kph? This is the point I’m trying to make—Kenobi can go beyond just about everyone else of the era because he’s learned to be a nigh-perfect vessel for the Force to channel its will through.
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on May 12th 2020, 2:02 pm
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There is nothing putting his potential below Mace or Dooku lol. If he can do at 38 what they can at 50 or 80 obviously he has higher potential. Again, Yoda thinks that he has to send two Dooku level opponents and one Grevious level opponent to fight Obi Wan who has converted. According to Ventress the Count views Obi Wan's potential as higher than Ventress's potential.

Those flowery hyperbolic Stover statements are actually how Soresu functions not that Obi Wan is a magically powerful force user who can perform force channeling like no other.
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on May 12th 2020, 2:12 pm
Potential Matchups - Page 2 39523600
Sjuttiosju
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on May 12th 2020, 2:23 pm
@The G Canon Purist:

Ah, my darling, you really shouldn't have cobbled together such a lazy rebuttal riddled with so much hostility. Sorry to enlighten you, but insults only work when you're in control, and at the moment you most certainly are not.

Well considering you just tried to hand-wave my entire post, I guess that's what you consider "concise" which is just lazy, apologies I put in more effort than your half-assed excuse based argumentation.

You really should learn what these terms mean before posting them:

Hand-waving is a pejorative label for attempting to be seen as effective – in word, reasoning, or deed – while actually doing nothing effective or substantial. It is most often applied to debate techniques that involve fallacies, misdirection and the glossing over of details.

Tell me my dear ISV, where did I "misdirect", "gloss over details" or "commit fallacies" throughout my post? That's right, I didn't.

The irony here being that your argument is as fragile as glass and yet you continue to throw stones.

Ah, the old "no u". So very profound.

Yes, I didn't deny that they were "half-men half-droid" and "old" but as I specified, it can't just be referring to age since Luke is a "young boy" who "LEARNED from these old people." it wouldn't apply to Luke who learns the forms and sequences from these people but isn't encumbered by age, so it has to be referring to something else.

Luke might not possess the same deficit given by age, but he does have a defecit provided by it. Him being a "young boy" is the stated reason for his ineptness relative to the PT, just as Ben's is his status as an old man.

If you think it refers to Luke being a "young boy" instead of someone who "learned from these old people" that's fine, but again incorrect since TPM Kenobi is 25 and Luke is 23 by Return of the Jedi, unless you think Lucas thinks a 3 year age difference separates Luke as a "young boy" or maybe like I said originally... it's the fact that he's a young boy who "learned from these old people."

That's the point though isn't it. His learning is the distinction between him and Kenobi, who has trained for far longer under a much better teacher. It's not just that Luke is a young boy, it's the lack of experience that comes with that youth, something that cannot be attributed to Obi-Wan.

I'm the one with reading comprehension issues amirite?

That's not a counter, that's a snide remark with nothing of substance accompanying it.

You agree it's about Choreography yes? Your exact quote earlier was:

Choreography can convey a lot more than skill. Speed, agility, strength, power etc etc can all be shown through choreography.

Which I never denied, we just disagree that it's specifically referring to age, and again it has to be technical skill because Luke "learning from these old people" is mentioned as a primary reason for why the OT Jedi are inferior to the PT.

That's a leap. Luke's training isn't solely limited to technical skill. Him learning from worse teachers in a far shorter timeframe would cap him in an overall sense.

How is it stupid? Don't ever deign to appeal to "good faith debating" when you substitute things to fit your bias my good man. Believe it or not Gillard actually directed all of the PT Jedi's styles which as we have established are what make them "faster and more energetic."

It's stupid because this is a discussion about Lucas's intent. Hyper-analyzing clearly non-literal statements gets us nowhere closer to unearthing that intent. It's lazy, cheap and desperate. All attributes which describe you perfectly.

Since you want to use Lucas though, let's look to The Force Unleashed where Galen Marek is able to kill Shaak Ti and compete with her despite being trained by "a half-man half-droid" which again lends credence to the idea that even though the OT stylists are slower and different they are not necessarily locked beneath all of the PT as combatants. Oh and by the way, a more powerful version of Marek is given a relatively good fight by Vader by the end of the game.

Nothing puts Ti or Galen above TPM Kenobi either.

Like honestly do you people think before you speak?

If you realised how stupid that question sounds you wouldn't have typed it.

That is the finest excuse for "I can't actually debate you on this so I appeal to higher sources" I've ever heard.

It's more the fact that I don't need to. Why should I squabble with you on something so worthless when higher sources overrule it?

The problem is my dear DC, these stories exist and are part of continuity you cannot just throw them away to substitute your version of the Canon, at least not for debating purposes.

I can't throw out a factually incorrect character assessment?

This quote doesn't even interfere with the lore anyway since it references something that can be easily explained away by other sources and by the specific word choice he uses.

And yet you've done a piss poor job at proving that point.

There is working with the universe you have, and then there is walking a narrow-minded path and taking everything at face value, you should choose to do the former not the latter.

Gotta love the blatant attempt at portraying yourself as the noble one here. Truth be told, I don't think anybody on this site can honestly ascribe that word to themselves (Even those far more deserving of it than you), so you shouldn't even bother trying to cast yourself in that light.


Last edited by ScionOfSkywalker77 on May 16th 2020, 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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on May 13th 2020, 10:17 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
The War of the Quote


 DC wanted to make this tiny debate a dick measuring contest so I think this is my time to shine:


Potential Matchups - Page 2 Wx_bJMKeYw5A4ivqUCViLqMF3G_uahsFNcbdU36d2vFqf0TJQWkGHFMfWmB2pWNssnTgMHoLOY5_dqImTYMB9gFXPAyPRRamg-1FDY0zcgeIV_6xrp3gd95kb-tCit2Ae78LX9EF


Forgive me for my Sins.


The Error of Arrogance:

DC wrote:Ah, my darling, you really shouldn't have cobbled together such a lazy rebuttal riddled with so much hostility. Sorry to enlighten you, but insults only work when you're in control, and at the moment you most certainly are not.



I am not your darling. Despite what you may wish me to be in your most private moments, I don’t swing that way, I’m gonna have to pass, I appreciate the flattery though!


As for my “lazy rebuttal” and “lack of control” I’m afraid that in saying these words you assumed I wouldn’t respond, this was foolish. Never rely on the last word, it will not get you anything against a determined opponent and will only make you look worse in the long run. Potential Matchups - Page 2 X0YoS3fX2ZUFbJb-sSPRLLfA9DHiPCFzw2fy5lCd2Ba8_5iJGlnffPs_OrkOx5X3cqhnDviso1e1P638O2vOAhT0Uon9FucvRiEtSctZp19nfoo3y_gNcO27949qz3CUvPc3JMU6



DC wrote:You really should learn what these terms mean before posting them:


Hand-waving is a pejorative label for attempting to be seen as effective – in word, reasoning, or deed – while actually doing nothing effective or substantial. It is most often applied to debate techniques that involve fallacies, misdirection and the glossing over of details.


Tell me my dear ISV, where did I "misdirect", "gloss over details" or "commit fallacies" throughout my post?


Uh… what do you call ignoring my initial point about Vader’s opinion of his strength and how it makes up for the gap caused by his disabilities? What do you call baselessly assuming George’s intent without being able to prove what he actually means? I asked you to compete with me in a contest in empirical debating, in which one of us proves the point more logically than the other and substantiates that point with evidence. That doesn’t mean I’m going to follow your line of thought just because you seem to think your interpretation is more valid. Prove to me that your interpretation is superior with more than just your opinion please.



DC wrote:That's right, I didn't.



Ah, yet another baseless claim that I disproved Potential Matchups - Page 2 X0YoS3fX2ZUFbJb-sSPRLLfA9DHiPCFzw2fy5lCd2Ba8_5iJGlnffPs_OrkOx5X3cqhnDviso1e1P638O2vOAhT0Uon9FucvRiEtSctZp19nfoo3y_gNcO27949qz3CUvPc3JMU6



DC wrote:Ah, the old "no u". So very profound.



No, I just genuinely found the juxtaposition of your criticism and your argument ironic and amusing.



DC wrote:Luke might not posess (possess*- edited by ISV) the same deficit given by age, but he does have a defecit (deficit*-edited by ISV) provided by it. Him being a "young boy" is the stated reason for his ineptness relative to the PT, just as Ben's is his status as an old man 



Age is the correlation for the old man and younger man’s fighting styles being slower and less energetic, as Lucas said. I never outright denied that, just the idea that this specifically referred to all aspects of combat. Also, you are ignoring the argument once again. I said that Luke is a “young boy who learned from these old people” and that was my reasoning, him being a young man is not the only stated reason for him being, to reverse George’s words, slower and less energetic. The reason is stated to be who he learned from, which makes sense, and is why I attributed it to mostly technical skill or differing styles. Face it, from a logistical standpoint a slower fighter can be better than a “faster or more energetic” one and we see that with Vader in the canonical events that happen before the OT. So what I’m saying isn’t unreasonable or misdirecting as you imply, just perceptive.



DC wrote:That's the point though isn't it. His learning is the distinction between him and Kenobi, who has trained for far longer under a much better teacher. It's not just that Luke is a young boy, it's the lack of experience that comes with that youth, something that cannot be attributed to Obi-Wan.



Baseless. First of all, Vader and Ben are both luke’s teachers in different ways (more on this later) and both have mastered all forms of lightsaber combat, Vader training Starkiller/Galen to have “all but perfected lightsaber combat.” Never is it stated that this distinction and lack of experience makes him inferior to Kenobi, just that he’s “learned from these old people” and as a result has a different style of combat. Again, you are implying things that are not present in the quote to fit your interpretation.



DC wrote:That's not a counter, that's a snide remark with nothing of substance accompanying it.



A fair point. Though this critique is the pot calling the kettle black, no?



DC wrote:

Choreography can convey a lot more than skill. Speed, agility, strength, power etc etc can all be shown through choreography.


“Can convey” and “is stated to convey” are different things entirely. I see no evidence in this quote that it’s speaking of inferiority just “slower and less energetic” like he said.


From an out of universe standpoint the Original Trilogy utilized mostly fencing, english broadsword fighting, and a little bit of Kendo. The Prequel Trilogy brings a lot more Kendo and acrobatics in, which does indeed make the fights “faster and more energetic” like Lucas said.


From an in-universe standpoint we actually do have reason on why Vader, Ben, and Luke would all be different from the PT. leading them to be “slower and less energetic.” Ben Kenobi is easy, he is old and uses different forms than when he was younger, practicing Form 2 Makashi which is noted to lack acrobatics and Form 3 Soresu, so it makes sense that he wouldn’t be acrobatically flipping around. Vader is different entirely, Vader weighs about 300 standard pounds and is noted to practice a style with limited mobility, Form 5 Djem-so. More than this, Sidious says: “he would never be able to perform the acrobatics that made Maul the ultimate assassin.” So it again makes sense for Vader to not be flipping around as much as a PT Jedi would. That brings us to Luke, Luke’s style is a hybridization of Obi-Wan’s journals on Soresu and a mimicry of his Father’s own style, which makes perfect sense why he wouldn’t flip around. Luke is as young as Kenobi, and has the force which gives basic padawans the ability to flip around like madmen so why wouldn’t he if he could and the PT style was superior? Again, style. Which is why the line “learned from these old people” is so important. It’s the key to everything, Luke is learning from these characters who already have “slower and less energetic styles” and as a result participates in that style. The use of Age and allusion to Vader’s cybernetics is a reference to why each of them are different yes but it doesn’t outright say inferior.


If you find my explanation incorrect, simply look at some of the best PT duelists: Palpatine, Dooku, and Grandmaster Yoda. All three are saddled with the limitation of age, all of them are older than Ben, yet they aren’t any weaker or inferior to younger duelists for it, why? Because again, it’s not talking about inferiority, it’s talking about difference. You can be different and not inferior, human’s learned that lesson a long time ago.



DC wrote:That's a leap. Luke's training isn't solely limited to technical skill. Him learning from worse teachers in a far shorter timeframe would cap him in an overall sense.



I used technical skill and style very broadly here but the point remains. Luke is learning from different teachers than Kenobi, nothing says inferior. Again I point you to Galen Marek, a character that George Lucas had considerable authority over how he would function and fit into the story. Galen was hand-trained by Vader and wasn’t any more inferior to PT jedi than anyone else. The point you are making here is flawed as it doesn’t even fit with George’s opinion, let alone the quote.



DC wrote:It's stupid because this is a discussion about Lucas's intent. Hyper-analyzing clearly non-literal statements gets us nowhere closer to unearthing that intent. It's lazy, cheap and desperate. All attributes which describe you perfectly.



Desperation is yet another baseless claim, are you capable of making one accurate assessment? Lucas’s intent is up for debate which was what I was saying. Appealing to your interpretation of that intent being correct where mine is not is not a valid argument. As I stated in my previous post, my interpretation of the quote best coincides with the lore and Lucas’s other visions. (IE: TFU)


You can berate me all you like, I still haven’t gotten evidence that your interpretation is any more correct than my own, and with your apparent inability to prove that point in two different posts  I consider it a concession. Potential Matchups - Page 2 X0YoS3fX2ZUFbJb-sSPRLLfA9DHiPCFzw2fy5lCd2Ba8_5iJGlnffPs_OrkOx5X3cqhnDviso1e1P638O2vOAhT0Uon9FucvRiEtSctZp19nfoo3y_gNcO27949qz3CUvPc3JMU6



DC wrote:Nothing puts Ti or Galen above TPM Kenobi either.



Not the point. The point is that PT Jedi are still deemed inferior to Vader and his apprentice through the force and in lightsaber combat and since Lucas appeals to the distinction being the time-period they are in; “the prime of the jedi” is the reason the Jedi are “faster and more energetic” we can use Ti, Paratus, Kota, and, even Galen to illustrate the fact the quote doesn’t reference inferiority, rather, difference.



DC wrote:If you realised how stupid that question sounds you wouldn't have typed it.



To quote you from earlier this post:



DC (from the past) wrote:That's not a counter, that's a snide remark with nothing of substance accompanying it.



.



DC wrote:It's more the fact that I don't need to. Why should I squabble with you on something so worthless when higher sources overrule it?



Well first of all, the higher sources only overrule it in your interpretation, mine exists far more cohesively with the lore though. Secondly, those events canonically happened. Like, Lucas’s story ends at Return of the Jedi, but we still take DE, NJO, and LOTF as equally canonical as everything else. So when we have events and power inconsistency directly contradicting one interpretation of a vague statement, we look to reconcile that quote with the established lore. Ignoring those events entirely for Lucas is just ignorant, take it up with Chee why these inconsistencies exist, or just reconcile the quote as I have done to fit an intent that I think coincides with George better.



DC wrote:I can't throw out a factually incorrect character assessment?



This seems to be a theme with you, anything you don’t agree with is incorrect. I urge you to change this egotistical line of thought.



DC wrote:And yet you've done a piss poor job at proving that point.



The irony of this should not escape you:



DC (from the past) wrote:That's not a counter, that's a snide remark with nothing of substance accompanying it.



.



DC wrote:Gotta love the blatant attempt at portraying yourself as the noble one here. Truth be told, I don't think anybody on this site can honestly ascribe that word to themselves (Even those far more deserving of it than you), so you shouldn't even bother trying to cast yourself in that light.


Nobility has nothing to do with it. I was just illustrating that my interpretation fits better with both the canonical events that happen in-lore and George’s later projects, and my reconciliation was more correct than your rather blunt point of view.
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on May 29th 2020, 7:12 am
@The Dark Apprentice:

DC wanted to make this tiny debate a dick measuring contest so I think this is my time to shine:

Uh, no, I didn't. A few harmless jabs thrown from both sides for a good laugh =/= turning a debate into a dick measuring contest.

As for my “lazy rebuttal” and “lack of control” I’m afraid that in saying these words you assumed I wouldn’t respond, this was foolish. Never rely on the last word, it will not get you anything against a determined opponent and will only make you look worse in the long run.

Where in my post did I indicate I wouldn't respond and was relying on last word? That's right, I never did.

Uh… what do you call ignoring my initial point about Vader’s opinion of his strength and how it makes up for the gap caused by his disabilities?

I didn't ignore it, I merely pointed out that Vader's opinion doesn't have the same weight as WOG statements, a premise even you subscribe to. That I didn't debunk the statements authenticity through bitching about what it actually says vs what you think it says doesn't make me guilty of fallacies or glossing over details given I addressed it all the same.. But since you're so desperate to go down that road let's look at it again shall we:

He needed to force Cuis into a confined space to deny him the advantage of two lightsabers. There had once been a boy called Anakin who could have done that with sheer technique, but he was forgotten, and the transformed man that was Vader opted for sheer power and began a fast, furious slashing assault, slicing through a tree trunk as Cuis dodged behind it.

It's not saying that Vader's physicality compensates for his loss of skill period... it's merely stating that in this particular instance Vader can accomplish the same result Anakin would have due to sheer physical strength. That doesn't mean he can do the same in any scenario, so unless you can establish that this is Anakin's upper limit (Unlikely), Vader's ability to replicate it doesn't speak to parity.

What do you call baselessly assuming George’s intent without being able to prove what he actually means?

I've literally spent this whole debate proving what he means... that you don't buy my explanations due to a deep rooted bias in favour of a certain sick man in an iron mask is not my problem, and doesn't show that I'm somehow making "baseless assumptions".

Age is the correlation for the old man and younger man’s fighting styles being slower and less energetic, as Lucas said. I never outright denied that, just the idea that this specifically referred to all aspects of combat.

Except we know it's referencing all aspects of combat as Lucas contrasts them in an overall sense. When he's saying they're "Jedi in their prime", "real Jedi" etc etc vs "old men", "young boys who learned from old men" etc etc do you think he's secretly suggesting that the latter group are simply slower and less technically skilled but better all round, or is he saying that they're just flat out worse?

First of all, Vader and Ben are both luke’s teachers in different ways (more on this later) and both have mastered all forms of lightsaber combat, Vader training Starkiller/Galen to have “all but perfected lightsaber combat.”

These are generic accolades that are applied to PT swordsman on the regular. Suggesting that Vader and SK are unique in this respect is ridiculous. Nothing here demonstrates they're on par with TPM Kenobi.

A fair point. Though this critique is the pot calling the kettle black, no?

The distinction being that my jabs are accompanied with something of substance, yours are not.

“Can convey” and “is stated to convey” are different things entirely. I see no evidence in this quote that it’s speaking of inferiority just “slower and less energetic” like he said.

Clarified above.

If you find my explanation incorrect, simply look at some of the best PT duelists: Palpatine, Dooku, and Grandmaster Yoda. All three are saddled with the limitation of age, all of them are older than Ben, yet they aren’t any weaker or inferior to younger duelists for it, why? Because again, it’s not talking about inferiority, it’s talking about difference. You can be different and not inferior, human’s learned that lesson a long time ago.

Or perhaps it's because they all have attributes that allow them to compensate for their age, attributes Ben isn't privy to. Again, appealing to this hyper-literal analysis is silly, and clearly not how George's statement is supposed to be interpreted.

Again I point you to Galen Marek, a character that George Lucas had considerable authority over how he would function and fit into the story. Galen was hand-trained by Vader and wasn’t any more inferior to PT jedi than anyone else. The point you are making here is flawed as it doesn’t even fit with George’s opinion, let alone the quote.

Demonstrate why Galen is greater than TPM Kenobi.

You can berate me all you like, I still haven’t gotten evidence that your interpretation is any more correct than my own, and with your apparent inability to prove that point in two different posts  I consider it a concession.

My inability to convince a Vader fanboy =/= not being able to prove my point to any neutral observer.

Inability to adequately demonstrate something yet still holding to it =/= concession.

You're not very good at realising that the above aren't the same thing are you?

Not the point. The point is that PT Jedi are still deemed inferior to Vader and his apprentice through the force and in lightsaber combat and since Lucas appeals to the distinction being the time-period they are in; “the prime of the jedi” is the reason the Jedi are “faster and more energetic” we can use Ti, Paratus, Kota, and, even Galen to illustrate the fact the quote doesn’t reference inferiority, rather, difference.

That Lucas references the time period as a reason doesn't alter the fact that he's referring to Kenobi and Jinn specifically, not every other Jedi around. Trying to say that it applies to all other PT Jedi is ridiculous, and clearly not in line with what it's suggesting. On top of that, Lucas is not saying that them being younger, older, half-robot etc etc is making them "slower and less energetic", he's saying that he's using the "slower and less energetic" choreography to convey the fact that they're the aforementioned things, and lesser than the PT Jedi. It's not hard dude.

Well first of all, the higher sources only overrule it in your interpretation, mine exists far more cohesively with the lore though.

It's not our job to weasel around twisting George's words to fit with a character opinion you incorrectly interpreted. The lore bends to fit Lucas, not the other way round.

Secondly, those events canonically happened. Like, Lucas’s story ends at Return of the Jedi, but we still take DE, NJO, and LOTF as equally canonical as everything else.

For reasons that you've seen and have been discussed time and time again with the same conclusion.

This seems to be a theme with you, anything you don’t agree with is incorrect. I urge you to change this egotistical line of thought.

It's not my opinion that's relevant here, it's Lucas's.

The irony of this should not escape you:

Difference is that was a point I'd already addressed, your snide remark was nothing but a shitty attempt at dodging having to respond to my argument.

To summarise:

>Lucas isn't saying they're slower and less energetic as a result of the factors mentioned, he's saying the factors mentioned result in overall inferiority conveyed through the choreography's speed.
>Lucas isn't referencing stylistic differences but clear cut disparities in combative capability.
>Appealing to his fights with Galen gets you nowhere.
>Your interpretation of the Vader quote is incorrect and would be overruled even if it weren't.
>Hyper-analyzing the statement gets us nowhere, the goal here is to unearth Lucas's intent, not twist his words to fit certain agendas.
>This post is overly long and should have been condensed.
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