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tulakhord1998
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on May 10th 2020, 10:54 pm
Darth Zannah vs Depa Billaba
Kit Fisto vs Quinlan Vos
Sora Bulq vs Bastila Shan
Darth Malgus vs Depa Billaba
Savage Oppress vs Jax Pavin
Aurra Sing vs Teneb Kel
Padawan Kenobi vs Barris
Scourge (TOR) vs Darth Vader
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on May 11th 2020, 4:44 am
@tulakhord1998 wrote:Kit Fisto vs Quinlan Vos

Fisto stomps.

@tulakhord1998 wrote:Sora Bulq vs Bastila Shan

Bulq stomps.
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on May 11th 2020, 6:15 am
Billaba 
Fisto
Bulq
Billaba
Sing
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Vader
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on May 11th 2020, 3:07 pm
Which are so one sided that they're not even worth doing
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on May 11th 2020, 3:21 pm
Interesting match-ups.





Darth Zannah vs Depa Billaba

Zannah. Depa has no counter for her sorcery.


Kit Fisto vs Quinlan Vos

Fisto stomps.


Sora Bulq vs Bastila Shan

Sora stomps.


Darth Malgus vs Depa Billaba

Prime Malgus stomps. FE also stomps.


Savage Oppress vs Jax Pavin

Savage. Too strong and powerful.


Padawan Kenobi vs Barris

Kenobi, I'd say.


Scourge (TOR) vs Darth Vader

If prime Scourge, Vader in a good fight.
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on May 11th 2020, 4:02 pm
So Darth Malgus would be able to display better bladework feats than TPM Windu?
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on May 11th 2020, 6:39 pm
Look bro, I don't know and or care about the TOR shit, but anything with prime Jax Pavan is pretty much always Jax

he just freezes him and kills him, there is no form required with savage, he just stirs the eddies and stabs him.
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on May 11th 2020, 8:04 pm
@CuckedCurry wrote:So Darth Malgus would be able to display better bladework feats than TPM Windu?
Considering how much more powerful he is, he wouldn’t need to. We also only have Mace’s word for that, who’s notoriously unreliable. The man would claim R2 was a better warrior than he was if he saw how he dealt with the Gundarks in TCW.
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on May 12th 2020, 3:05 am
Why exactly is Mace not reliable then?
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on May 12th 2020, 3:46 am
@LOTL wrote:Why exactly is Mace not reliable then?
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on May 12th 2020, 7:56 am
Darth Zannah vs Depa Billaba
Zannah. She was able to handle someone as powerful as Bane so I don't think that Depa have any advantage in term of lightsaber duels. In addition she has a bunch of tricks that could give her a decisive advantage in a fight

Kit Fisto vs Quinlan Vos
Fisto. He was in the B-Team while Quinlan isn't even close to them.

Sora Bulq vs Bastila Shan
Bulq. Bastila has an impressive display but I have Bulq above her because of his duelist capacities.

Darth Malgus vs Depa Billaba
Malgus. Darth Malgus is insanely durable and has great showing both in term of force power and lightsaber capacities. This is more than enough to defeat Depa.

Savage Oppress vs Jax Pavin
Oppress. More sheer power and more strenght than Jax.

Aurra Sing vs Teneb Kel
Sing. Her showing against Hett (the father) and Caedus puts her above Tenel Keb.

Padawan Kenobi vs Barris
Barris. Being able to hold her own against Anakin is more impressive than anything that Kenobi as a padawan had.

Scourge (TOR) vs Darth Vader
Vader. Being at the very least 80% of RotJ Sidious is way more powerful than Scourge. In additon, his showing are more impressive.
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on May 12th 2020, 8:04 am
@Xolthol:

Vader. Being at the very least 80% of RotJ Sidious is way more powerful than Scourge.

Can you demonstrate why that's the case? Fact is is that it's an unquantifiable, randomly chosen statistic that's prefaced with a "maybe", and still puts one shot gap between him and Sheev. But if you want to go with Lucas then let's talk about the time he said TPM Kenobi was better than Vader. I'm sure Vader is definitely on Scourge's level based off that.
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on May 12th 2020, 8:15 am
Why exactly is Mace not reliable then?

Kar Vastor: 


I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. And I had no desire to debate with Depa on Jedi tradition, and the necessary distinction between dark and light.
-

The shape smoked with power. More power than Mace had ever felt.
V.S

It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.


Yoda: 


"Master Yoda is many things, and I am not his equal in peace or war,"
V.S 
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor,"
-
''A respected Jedi with powers on a par with those venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary.''
-
A respected Jedi on par with the venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council.


Obi-Wan:
In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him
-
"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?"
V.S
Sidious is a level nine. On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine.
-
You have to be either Mace or Yoda to contend with the Emperor. 


I can probably find more if you'd like, but Mace has a habit of either overestimating other Force user's abilities and massively underestimating his own. Even if Depa's bladework outshone his, we don't have the context for it or evidence that this outright means she can outperform him in a spar or duel as of TPM. 
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on May 12th 2020, 8:16 am
@tulakhord1998 wrote:Which are so one sided that they're not even worth doing

Vos vs. Fisto. Vos was curbstomped by Agen Kolar in one of the comics, and Fisto performed better than Kolar against Sidious.

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on May 12th 2020, 9:31 am
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@Xolthol:

Vader. Being at the very least 80% of RotJ Sidious is way more powerful than Scourge.

Can you demonstrate why that's the case? Fact is is that it's an unquantifiable, randomly chosen statistic that's prefaced with a "maybe", and still puts one shot gap between him and Sheev. But if you want to go with Lucas then let's talk about the time he said TPM Kenobi was better than Vader. I'm sure Vader is definitely on Scourge's level based off that.
Which he never said at all. The PT having more faster and energetic lightsaber duels compared to OT is not the same as saying TPM Kenobi>Vader.
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on May 12th 2020, 9:33 am
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on May 12th 2020, 9:45 am
@SithSauce:

George Lucas wrote:We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing.

Learn to read properly. Lucas isn't just saying that Kenobi has "faster and more energetic" saber duels, he's explicitly stating that Kenobi is a "real Jedi" in comparison to Vader, who is a "crippled half-droid half-man", and that he's using the "faster and more energetic" choreography to convey that belief. And you wonder why the Vader brigade isn't taken seriously when its supporters evidently haven't taken basic reading classes.
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on May 12th 2020, 9:50 am
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@BoD wrote:
Why exactly is Mace not reliable then?

Kar Vastor: 


I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. And I had no desire to debate with Depa on Jedi tradition, and the necessary distinction between dark and light.
-

The shape smoked with power. More power than Mace had ever felt.
V.S

It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.

The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.


Yoda: 


"Master Yoda is many things, and I am not his equal in peace or war,"
V.S 
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor,"
-
''A respected Jedi with powers on a par with those venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary.''
-
A respected Jedi on par with the venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council.


Obi-Wan:
In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him
-
"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?"
V.S
Sidious is a level nine. On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine.
-
You have to be either Mace or Yoda to contend with the Emperor. 


I can probably find more if you'd like, but Mace has a habit of either overestimating other Force user's abilities and massively underestimating his own. Even if Depa's bladework outshone his, we don't have the context for it or evidence that this outright means she can outperform him in a spar or duel as of TPM. 


Vastor’s power in the Force is measured through his potential, not through the actual power he actually has in Shatterpoint. He has power on the level of Yoda and Anakin, though that power isn’t actualised nor has his power in the Force manifested itself through standardised training. This is why Mace is able to ground Vastor’s power back into the jungle—his training eclipses Vastor’s untrained, unrealised power. In other words, Vastor is not on Yoda’s level through actualised power, and therefore the comparison you’re trying to make doesn’t work. 

The same applies for 18BBY Vader—it’s implied that he’s barely lost any of his potential in Coruscant Nights, but we know through other sources that Vader doesn’t have the means to access the power within himself. So, Nick can sense the power within Vader, that doesn’t mean that the actual level of  power Vader can call upon would even scratch the surface of the power that he has within. And, by feats, Vastor puts 18BBY Vader in the ground. 

Bro, bring up as many secondary sources as you like, Mace genuinely isn’t on Yoda’s level in peace and war. In fact, during the battle of Iktoch, it’s insinuated that Saesee Tiin has more raw power at his disposal than Mace has. Yoda has more supremacy quotes than Mace does in sabers and dominates in sheer offensive Force power—Mace can’t hang until ROTS.

For your last comparison, I’m not sure what the quote you provided proves. Make no mistake, Kenobi is the greatest Jedi of his era; what he’s able to accomplish with, let’s be honest, his inferior potential in the Force is just mind blowing. Running at 600kph, blocking omnidirectional blaster fire from 10,000 battle droids, fighting Anakin Skywalker head-to-head—these feats should be well beyond what he should be able to do. So yes, he’s the greatest. That doesn’t necessarily mean he’d beat Mace—the quote doesn’t say more skilled, or more powerful, or stronger etc.

The bladework feat Mace is refereeing to can be found in the Emissaries to Malastare TPB comic, my young uneducated friend
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on May 12th 2020, 11:29 am
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on May 12th 2020, 12:21 pm
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@SithSauce:

George Lucas wrote:We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing.

Learn to read properly. Lucas isn't just saying that Kenobi has "faster and more energetic" saber duels, he's explicitly stating that Kenobi is a "real Jedi" in comparison to Vader, who is a "crippled half-droid half-man", and that he's using the "faster and more energetic" choreography to convey that belief. And you wonder why the Vader brigade isn't taken seriously when its supporters evidently haven't taken basic reading classes.


I don't think you understand the argument then. It's not unlike you to ignore the true meaning of things, I shall elaborate.




Yes, Lucas is saying Vader and the other members of the OT are not "real Jedi." As in they aren't "faster and more energetic" like the Prequel Jedi, the argument is that for the OT this refers to technical skill and the flamboyant nature of their blade-work hence Vader not being "real Jedi" and a "crippled half-droid half-man." But again we run into a problem don't we? It's not specifically age that Lucas is talking about here: "young boys that have learned from these old people." Often ignored entirely, this helps us piece together what the quote actually means, it is the technical skill that is inferior to that of TPM Kenobi. This is consistent with other sources like Insider which claim: "(Vader) lacks the polish of lifelong masters who studied multiple forms" and again in TFU "For all his occasional clumsiness the dark lord was sure on his feet." Given this new depth of understanding we can now add this quote back into the current continuity where we see Vader is able to compete with these Jedi who are "fighting in the prime of the jedi" during the purge and I'm guessing you don't want to contest the idea that the OT is his prime, which then leads you to the inevitable conclusion: OT character's don't have the technical refinement of the PT Jedi but by Vader's nature he must be able to compete with them. If you need one more piece we have Vader's own thoughts from "In His Image" where he considers his lightsaber style in relation to Anakin's as of 19bby:

  "He needed to force Cuis into a confined space to deny him the advantage of two lightsabers. There had once been a boy called Anakin who could have done that with sheer technique, but he was forgotten, and the transformed man that was Vader opted for sheer power and began a fast, furious slashing assault, slicing through a tree trunk as Cuis dodged behind it."


It is implied from this quote that Vader's "sheer power" is enough to compensate for any loss of skill he received after being forced into the suit. So unless you want to somehow throw out all of Vader's purge showings in favor of Lucas (you can't do that since it's officially Canon to Legends) you would have to concede that Vader is in some way able to compete with these PT Jedi even though he's "a crippled half-droid half-man" or the entirety of the lore breaks...


Last edited by The G Canon Purist on May 12th 2020, 12:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
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on May 12th 2020, 12:51 pm
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on May 12th 2020, 12:54 pm
Running at 600kph, blocking omnidirectional blaster fire from 10,000 battle droids, fighting Anakin Skywalker head-to-head—these feats should be well beyond what he should be able to do. So yes, he’s the greatest.

Or his potential is that great? Yoda has Mace, Anakin and late CW Ahsoka teaming to fight Obi Wan who has turned, which shows how much more powerful he can become if he turns to the dark side. Ventress outright says that Dooku sees "great promise" in Obi Wan and that he can "easily" replace her, and we know how much potential Ventress really has meaning his own potential is actually vast.

The text doesn't have to eulogize his power or talent every time like Anakin lol. He has enough quotes putting him as a powerhouse clearly. The reason that the text is not ringing with his power or potential in the force is because his role as a character and in the lore is much more than just being a big muscleman for the Jedi( unlike Anakin who literally has nothing to his character other than being powerful) hence they are lost among real character development
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on May 12th 2020, 12:57 pm
@LOTL wrote:
Running at 600kph, blocking omnidirectional blaster fire from 10,000 battle droids, fighting Anakin Skywalker head-to-head—these feats should be well beyond what he should be able to do. So yes, he’s the greatest.

Or his potential is that great? Yoda has Mace, Anakin and late CW Ahsoka teaming to fight Obi Wan who has turned, which shows how much more powerful he can become if he turns to the dark side. Ventress outright says that Dooku sees "great promise" in Obi Wan and that he can "easily" replace her, and we know how much potential Ventress really has meaning his own potential is actually vast.

The text doesn't have to eulogize his power or talent every time like Anakin lol. He has enough quotes putting him as a powerhouse clearly. The reason that the text is not ringing with his power or potential in the force is because his role as a character and in the lore is much more than just being a big muscleman for the Jedi( unlike Anakin who literally has nothing to his character other than being powerful) hence they are lost among real character development

LOL, when did that happen. I'm not saying it didn't I just want a source  Potential Matchups 815462187
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on May 12th 2020, 12:59 pm
@The G Canon Purist:

Someday you might learn how to type out a post whilst actually keeping concise. That wall of shit was a pain to trudge through. Anyhow:

I don't think you understand the argument then. It's not unlike you to ignore the true meaning of things, I shall elaborate.

People with glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Yes, Lucas is saying Vader and the other members of the OT are not "real Jedi." As in they aren't "faster and more energetic" like the Prequel Jedi, the argument is that for the OT this refers to technical skill and the flamboyant nature of their blade-work hence Vader not being "real Jedi" and a "crippled half-droid half-man."

He's not saying they're not "real Jedi" because they aren't as "fast or energetic", he's saying that it's because they''re "crippled half-droid half-men", "young boys" etc etc. The nature of the choreography is not a reason for their status like you claim, it's the device used to convey it, as emphasised by it being mentioned after the initial reasoning provided.

But again we run into a problem don't we? It's not specifically age that Lucas is talking about here

Except that's literally all that's mentioned there...

Often ignored entirely, this helps us piece together what the quote actually means, it is the technical skill that is inferior to that of TPM Kenobi.

That's a leap. It compares the two in an overall sense, technical skill is referenced nowhere throughout the quote.

Given this new depth of understanding we can now add this quote back into the current continuity where we see Vader is able to compete with these Jedi who are "fighting in the prime of the jedi" during the purge and I'm guessing you don't want to contest the idea that the OT is his prime, which then leads you to the inevitable conclusion: OT character's don't have the technical refinement of the PT Jedi but by Vader's nature he must be able to compete with them.

Vader never fights anyone throughout his early years that could be considered on par with TPM Kenobi and Jinn, who are the Jedi being discussed in the Lucas quote. Taking the insanely hyper literal approach is stupid, and goes against what Lucas is clearly talking about.

If you need one more piece we have Vader's own thoughts from "In His Image" where he considers his lightsaber style in relation to Anakin's as of 19bby:

Vader's own perceptions can't overrule Lucas's word, any advantage his strength afforded him is clearly irrelevant when contrasted with his overall combative efficiency being clearly beneath TPM Obi-Wan's.


Last edited by ScionOfSkywalker77 on May 13th 2020, 5:35 am; edited 3 times in total
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on May 12th 2020, 1:03 pm
It didn't happen. It was a hypothetical scenario
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