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SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 1st 2020, 4:51 am
1. Sabers only
2 All out
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 1st 2020, 12:15 pm
Caedus stomps.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 1st 2020, 12:18 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:Caedus stomps.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 1st 2020, 1:03 pm
caedus shits
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 1st 2020, 4:22 pm
Only chance Jacen has is the split second when Zannah is thrown off when her spells rebound.

In a conventional battle he loses.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 1st 2020, 7:16 pm
There's a good chance Zannah's Sith spells are useless against him which in that case he steamrolls.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 5th 2020, 8:04 am
Caedus can one shot with TK or FL. If he's feeling generous though he might go for a duel, in which case Zannah will last around 2-3 seconds. His scaling to Juke and Krayt just puts him out of her league.
Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 5th 2020, 12:27 pm
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:Caedus can one shot with TK or FL. If he's feeling generous though he might go for a duel, in which case Zannah will last around 2-3 seconds. His scaling to Juke and Krayt just puts him out of her league.
How does he scale to Krayt?
Agreed with the rest.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 5th 2020, 2:27 pm
He's stated to be the most powerful sith as of 41 ABY so he scales to Krayt as of that point.
The God Emperor
The God Emperor

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 7th 2020, 5:28 am
Caedus wrecks her
The Rich Man
The Rich Man

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 10th 2020, 5:48 pm
Caedus
Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 12th 2020, 10:02 am
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:He's stated to be the most powerful sith as of 41 ABY so he scales to Krayt as of that point.
And that tells us what exactly? We don't know what Krayt was capable of in 41 ABY. We don't see him doing anything till 44 ABY. Three years is more than enough time to grew in power, especially since we don't even know how big the power difference between Caedus and 41 ABY Krayt was to begin with.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 12th 2020, 10:05 am
He was throwing down with Kenobi before growing orders of magnitude more powerful so it tells us quite a lot. And the power disparity doesn't have to be big to allow Caedus massive superiority over Zannah.
Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 12th 2020, 10:24 am
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:He was throwing down with Kenobi before growing orders of magnitude more powerful so it tells us quite a lot. And the power disparity doesn't have to be big to allow Caedus massive superiority over Zannah.
Sure, never claimed otherwise, was just curious about the whole Caedus > Krayt thing, it's a shame it's pretty vague.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 12th 2020, 12:08 pm
Wouldn't call massive superiority to Kenobi vague but you're entitled to that opinion.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 12th 2020, 4:31 pm
Well it’s vague in that the extent to which Caedus is superior to Krayt is unknown, though I doubt the quote would exist to begin with if Caedus were more powerful by an insignificant degree. That said though, this Krayt scales from giving a Kenobi a decent fight before growing strong enough to where he thought he might be able to defeat Vader and Palpatine (for what it’s worth).
Ash
Ash

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 12th 2020, 7:34 pm
Futhermore, the source in question comes from a cancelled book, making the events in question N-Canon, including that statement. And even if it was somehow canon, it is very vague in the way it describes 'power', as simply power can mean a lot of different things besides Force powers per Chee.

Zannah crushes.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 12th 2020, 7:44 pm
@Ash:

Futhermore, the source in question comes from a cancelled book, making the events in question N-Canon, including that statement.

It being republished on SW.com makes it C-Canon by default. Try again.

And even if it was somehow canon, it is very vague in the way it describes 'power', as simply power can mean a lot of different things besides Force powers per Chee.

It's hardly vague. But go on, tell me what else it could be referring too. I could do with the laughs.

Zannah crushes.

I'll bet 100 quid you have no viable argument for this.
Ash
Ash

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 12th 2020, 8:00 pm
It being republished on SW.com makes it C-Canon by default. Try again.

An unpublished book blurb being posted on SW.com doesn't automatically make the events of the book canon, since the book was cancelled. It should effectively retcon the entire blurb.

It's hardly vague. But go on, tell me what else it could be referring too. I could do with the laughs.

The context of the paragraph refers to a war with Caedus, a war not limited to defeating him in personal combat.  We can't just consider what he can do with the Force, but also his massive military powers he has at his disposal. Took a bit of digging but Chee and I agree on this as well.

"Say if we were having a debate on who was the most powerful sith ever, and a random sourcebook states that Sidious is, would that make it absolute, and render the discussion over, or would is still only be a matter of opinion and still up for debate??

"There's always going to be room for interpretation and debate. Is the power being measured referring to his mastery over the dark side of the Force, the governmental powers he wields as Emperor, or some combination of both?"

In this case, the focus of the blurb in question is glossing over the fact that Zekk was facing Caedus's forces - aka his governmental military forces. I'd go with that interpretation over randomly asserting mid-paragraph that Caedus is the most powerful of the Sith Lords in only the Force. This isn't even considering that the only notable Sith Lords, Krayt and Vol, weren't even thought of until mid-way through Fate of the Jedi, the ladder not even being a character yet. 

I'll bet 100 quid you have no viable argument for this.

Based on your argumentation, this will be an easy 100 quid.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 13th 2020, 1:55 am
@Ash wrote:An unpublished book blurb being posted on SW.com doesn't automatically make the events of the book canon, since the book was cancelled. It should effectively retcon the entire blurb.

That’s what I thought initially but the events of the book are mentioned in later works and therefore rendered canon even if the book itself isn’t, and they’re described quite in detail too. Take a look at Backlash’s description, for example: 


Backlash wrote:Zekk had been their daughter’s mission partner—and Jagged Fel’s rival for her affections—until a couple of years earlier, when he went missing in action during the Battle of Uroro Station. After a weeks-long search, the Solos and the entire Jedi Order had finally given up and declared him dead … only to have him show up six months later, fully recovered and romantically involved with an agent of the Hapan throne, Taryn Zel. Neither Zekk nor Taryn would discuss what had passed during those six months—or why Taryn had neglected to inform the Jedi of his survival—but Leia thought it likely they had been on a mission for Allana’s mother, Queen Mother Tenel Ka.


Not only does it include the actual events, but even characters such as Taryn Zel, who should have been featured extensively in that book and only has brief appereances in later novels. So the blurb does have something to stand on, which makes this whole point about the novel itself being non-Canon irrelevant. Of course, it being published on SW.COM as an article does make the blurb canon regardless. 
On topic, Caedus destroys, even without the quote.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 13th 2020, 5:00 am
@Ash:

An unpublished book blurb being posted on SW.com doesn't automatically make the events of the book canon, since the book was cancelled. It should effectively retcon the entire blurb.

Again, that's not how the Canon policy works. Anything that is republished on SW.com automatically becomes C-Canon by default. You've provided no rationalisation for why blurbs for unpublished books are exempt from this long established rule, simply stated it. Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 2829155256

The context of the paragraph refers to a war with Caedus, a war not limited to defeating him in personal combat.  We can't just consider what he can do with the Force, but also his massive military powers he has at his disposal. Took a bit of digging but Chee and I agree on this as well.

In this case, the focus of the blurb in question is glossing over the fact that Zekk was facing Caedus's forces - aka his governmental military forces. I'd go with that interpretation over randomly asserting mid-paragraph that Caedus is the most powerful of the Sith Lords in only the Force. This isn't even considering that the only notable Sith Lords, Krayt and Vol, weren't even thought of until mid-way through Fate of the Jedi, the ladder not even being a character yet.

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 1668617588

These arguments seem familiar, almost like they were copied from a certain poster I've come to blows with in the past. Anyhow:

A) Chee's musings don't really help your case here, all he's saying is that any and all "supremacy quotes" are up for interpretation and debate... which is exactly what we're doing right now. He's not saying all interpretations are equally viable however, and in this case they're not (Mine is more viable).

B) The surrounding context doesn't actually tell us anything concrete about the nature of the power. More than that however, if it's political or militaristic power the quote is trying to convey, you'd think it would go with "man" or "figure" given both would better convey the breadth of what he has at his disposal, and would hold given his position at the head of the Galactic Alliance.

C) Instead, the quote specifies that Caedus is a "sith lord", who are primarily defined not by their military, but by their own personal power in the force. Given this we can likely deduce that it is referencing force power as opposed to anything else.

D) Let's be real here, there's no reason for all knowing OOU sources commenting on IU events to be subject to an OOU chronology, it's just a way for people to worm out of what they don't like.

Based on your argumentation, this will be an easy 100 quid.

Given your whole post just got decimated I wouldn't bank on that. That aside, I asked for a viable pro-Zannah case, not an anti-Caedus one. Nothing's been posted for her so I'll consider that a concession of her uselessness on your end. Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 1289255181
Ash
Ash

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 13th 2020, 6:51 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Again, that's not how the Canon policy works. Anything that is republished on SW.com automatically becomes C-Canon by default. You've provided no rationalisation for why blurbs for unpublished books are exempt from this long established rule, simply stated it. Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 2829155256

Cue Sue Rostoni, the Executive Editor of Lucas Licensing.

Q: So is Blood Oath still considered to be canon then? We just won't know the details of it, naturally.

Rostoni: No, Blood Oath is not canon.

Rostoni point blank asserts Blood Oath as Non-Canon. One critical detail that you are missing is that the blurb was tagged with, "Kids, Stuff to Read, Vault, Books" not in the actual databank. Blurbs have a license to be subjective whereas the SW.com databank is intended to be a factual source of information. Hence the name "databank." SW.com wouldn't need to distinguish "databank" from the other tags unless the other tags aren't intended to be a factual source of information. 

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 1668617588

These arguments seem familiar, almost like they were copied from a certain poster I've come to blows with in the past. Anyhow:

While I do acknowledge that I agree with and am a proponent of the arguments from a "certain poster" and am actively using their arguments (Ziggy, ILS, and some others) absolutely no one cares. Therefore it is considered-

IRRELEVANT BULLSHIT: 1

A) Chee's musings don't really help your case here, all he's saying is that any and all "supremacy quotes" are up for interpretation and debate... which is exactly what we're doing right now. He's not saying all interpretations are equally viable however, and in this case they're not (Mine is more viable).

Chee is a proponent of what I'm arguing, that all supremacy quotes aren't meant to be taken as power in the Force for ScionofSkywalker77's Star Wars debating needs. 

B) The surrounding context doesn't actually tell us anything concrete about the nature of the power. More than that however, if it's political or militaristic power the quote is trying to convey, you'd think it would go with "man" or "figure" given both would better convey the breadth of what he has at his disposal, and would hold given his position at the head of the Galactic Alliance.

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 1419419311

You still haven't explained how your interpretation is "more viable" than mine, just that mine simply isn't viable, which is wrong. While you concede that the context "doesn't actually tell us anything concrete about the nature of the power" (meaning you you don't accept that the surrounding context could refer to your interpretation anyway), you still have yet to refute that the surrounding context was "something concrete". That Zekk confronts the military forces of Darth Caedus, in a military battle that almost kills him. The surrounding context gives the impression that Darth Caedus is a revered military commander who is the head of the Galactic Alliance, and a Sith Lord, who are notorious for being at the forefront of military and political power via the Rule of Two. Again, randomly asserting that Darth Caedus is the most powerful of the Sith Lords in Force power only is completely out of context when concerning the nature of the blurb itself, and the impression that they give us about Caedus.

C) Instead, the quote specifies that Caedus is a "sith lord", who are primarily defined not by their military, but by their own personal power in the force. Given this we can likely deduce that it is referencing force power as opposed to anything else.

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 1419419311

I disagree that Sith Lords are primarily defined by Force power. One has to ask themselves what constitutes as power in the eyes of Sith Lord, especially one following the Rule of Two methodology. What is more important to them: Exerting tyrannical control over the galaxy and it's inhabitants, or being personally more powerful than all. In more cases than not, I'd go with the former interpretation, especially when considering one who follows the Rule of Two methodology. 

Another avenue is to look at the specific Sith Lord in question. Darth Caedus's main goal was to bring peace to the galaxy, and have a better galaxy for his daughter. The main avenue Caedus would achieve this in would be through uniting the galaxy through political and military means with the Galactic Alliance. While Caedus does somewhat care about his powers in the Force, this is not his main goal first and foremost as a Sith Lord. Therefore a Sith Lord being "powerful" in the eyes of Caedus should primarily focus on a strong military and political force rather than his Force powers. 

D) Let's be real here, there's no reason for all knowing OOU sources commenting on IU events to be subject to an OOU chronology, it's just a way for people to worm out of what they don't like.

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 1419419311

I don't agree that a blurb that is bound to it's previous out-of-universe knowledge would apply characters who come after the fact on the out-of-universe chronology. While I agree that this is simply a methodology I and a majority of people go by, I don't see a better way to deal with out-of-universe chronology. 

Given your whole post just got decimated I wouldn't bank on that.

Not one single reader cares about your failed attempt dun-moch, you and your fellow Caedus fanboys can do that on your own time. 

IRRELEVANT BULLSHIT: 2

That aside, I asked for a viable pro-Zannah case, not an anti-Caedus one. Nothing's been posted for her so I'll consider that a concession of her uselessness on your end. Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 1289255181

I'll start arguing for Zannah once I see any remotely viable argument for Caedus. I'm primarily arguing anti-Caedus first and foremost, rather than pro-Zannah, not that it matters anyway. Not only does the surrounding context agree with me, but the Rule of Two methodology that Caedus follows agrees, and even Caedus himself. Caedus is a failure of a Sith Lord, and useless destruction of the once valorous Jacen Solo, who I otherwise have a great deal of respect for compared to Caedus.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 13th 2020, 7:17 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
@Ash wrote:Cue Sue Rostoni, the Executive Editor of Lucas Licensing.
Q: So is Blood Oath still considered to be canon then? We just won't know the details of it, naturally.


Rostoni: No, Blood Oath is not canon.

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 2864379292
Where have I already seen this?
Ash
Ash

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 13th 2020, 7:21 am
I got it from you MasterCilghal, thank you for the quote Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 228124001
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

on May 13th 2020, 7:38 am
Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah 1220391476

The argument I raised using that quote was downright wrong and one I’m still ashamed of. First of all, Sue Rostoni says in that same Q&A that they were going to reintroduce elements of the novel which, as we see in Backlash and Vortex, it was basics the whole plot, so the blurb isn’t even rendered non canon. As for the rest, I would suggest reading Ant’s rebuttals to the same very points you’ve raised. The matter here is not whether the quote is canon or not, but what it’s referring to.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Zannah

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