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TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 24th 2020, 1:30 pm
Haven't checked the round two updates but Ant's wisdom can apply to that thread as well.
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 24th 2020, 1:55 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Can you give the full quote, the context, surrounding paragraphs etc. too? Is it also referring to the Mustafar battle?

The context of "all" of the tier 9 statements so far has not been to compare and contrast "Obi Wan and Anakin" but to contrast "Anakin" from what his power is in the beginning of the movie compared to what it is when he completely embraces the power of the dark side and becomes a proper 9 and this seems no exception( it begins by telling that Anakin becomes a 9 which means the overall context is also likely to be that of his evolution) which is why I am asking for the full quote again.

If you want to label "that" difference as "enormous" be my guest by all means but then I will begin to question this so called "massive gap" and the notion of compete in the terms of Lucas or Gillard then. For eg. Qui Gon is a 7 and Maul is an 8. I certainly viewed the fight as a proper competition yet the "on paper" gap between them would be termed "enormous" by them. I certainly don't view Knightfall Vader in common terminology "stomping" Anakin at the beginning of the ROTS battle

Yoda has never "claimed that Palpatine would beat Obi Wan badly" though. He is factoring in Palpatine as a complete package which includes the fact that he is the culmination of 1000 years of force study and knowledge. Not to mention, mastery. Palpatine is "not" the same as Anakin. He may have the same power and the same viability in raw lightsaber combat but he is much more than that. He has already employed arcane knowledge to end fights quickly before. His mastery which surpasses that of Count Dooku probably by a wide margin is going to be all too effective in "engineering gaps in the opponent" which can be picked apart easily and that whole combat situation is going to resolve favorably for Palpatine in a way that may not reflect "only" power on his part.

For this reason, Yoda thinks also that Obi Wan cannot lose easily to Vader, a statement that Obi Wan affirms by himself. Vader, even though he may have the same power as Palpatine, is going to find it harder to "end a fight quickly" for the above reasons but in that case the longer the fight goes on the better Obi Wan's chances become.

Palpatine is not going to give him that chance because in addition to noticeably greater power, he simply has more tools at his disposal to end a fight quickly. Meaning Obi Wan has no chance whatsoever at beating him.

To completely realize the implications of that, view the Count Dooku vs Anakin battle. Dooku has greater mastery than Anakin, and hence this serves him well in exploiting multiple gaps in Anakin's form, though his power inferiority is too great to capitalize on it, or exploit it to a greater level as with Obi Wan. Now imagine someone a lot more powerful than the Count, more masterful in Palpatine with someone whose fighting has more flaws than Anakin( Anakin's style has the least amount of flaws which makes the Count getting through them even more impressive for his mastery) in Obi Wan and you can imagine the high benefit that Palpatine has along with his noticeably greater power
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 24th 2020, 3:55 pm
If Ant doesn't respond in the next two days I'll counter this.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 24th 2020, 4:23 pm
Jaggarath wrote:"Anakin becomes a level 9. George knows the levels, myself and George talked about levels and how it was. But it's more, it's not like a black belt, it's more like a Richter scale. So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous." (Nick Gillard, ROTS DVD commentary)

I've heard that this quote doesn't exist. Can you provide the video clip to verify its authenticity?
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 24th 2020, 5:16 pm
Looking up the versions on the wiki it seems Gillard has never recorded a commentary, but rather appears through archival interviews. If that’s the case the clip itself should be around and surely has popped up over the years we’ve dug around.
BreakofDawn
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 24th 2020, 5:25 pm
@Azronger One above is paraphrased. Link to it is here:

https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=941

He said it years after SW (2016) so not sure how credible it is. Unlike the "8, bordering on 9" comment, it doesn't really contradict anything. Gillard also says after that Anakin's is unstable as "he hasn't done it the right way."
DarthAnt66
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 24th 2020, 5:36 pm
Azronger wrote:I've heard that this quote doesn't exist. Can you provide the video clip to verify its authenticity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUri1mzZAZM (upload not by me)

HeartoftheForce wrote:Looking up the versions on the wiki it seems Gillard has never recorded a commentary, but rather appears through archival interviews. If that’s the case the clip itself should be around and surely has popped up over the years we’ve dug around.

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Tenor

BoD wrote:@Azronger One above is paraphrased. Link to it is here:

https://youtu.be/Z2-iZNQrFBA?t=941

I'm quoting something else.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:If Ant doesn't respond in the next two days I'll counter this.

https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/8b75b5a3-2514-4911-b504-6095d72470ad
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 24th 2020, 6:15 pm
Time for dessert then.

Not only is Anakin placed enormously above Obi-Wan but when the system of levels is compressed from one to nine to one to eight Anakin is potentially placed above Yoda and Sidious. Considering the richter scale this puts him even further above Kenobi during Knightfall.

"There's up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it's a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment." Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. "I've got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn't really exist," says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps. "It's only a writing tool," he says, "but it gives you the edge over ti just being a fight." 

Source is here: https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/star-wars-den-of-geek-goes-jedi-training-with-nick-gillard/

Before LOTL says this means Mustafar Anakin is peak Anakin this would've applied to Knightfall Vader only. Unless anyone wants to still argue Mustafar Kenobi = Peak Anakin in the Force. 

So what we can conclude that unhindered Anakin is potentially even farther above Kenobi than we may realize.
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 25th 2020, 12:48 am
Before LOTL says this means Mustafar Anakin is peak Anakin this would've applied to Knightfall Vader only. Unless anyone wants to still argue Mustafar Kenobi = Peak Anakin in the Force.

This is literally all you go on saying bro. When will you realize that it is not an argument?
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 25th 2020, 12:11 pm
LOTL wrote:
Before LOTL says this means Mustafar Anakin is peak Anakin this would've applied to Knightfall Vader only. Unless anyone wants to still argue Mustafar Kenobi = Peak Anakin in the Force.

This is literally all you go on saying bro. When will you realize that it is not an argument?

Well you did cut out the rest of my post and haven't responded to Ant yet. Fairly dismissive.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 25th 2020, 12:18 pm
TheNuisanceBased
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 25th 2020, 12:51 pm
CuckedCurry wrote:TheNuisanceBased

I still don't know what based means on this site.
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 26th 2020, 12:46 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I have given a response to Ant bro.

That tier system is not Lucas approved meaning it is irrelevant.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 26th 2020, 8:39 am
TheNuisanceBird wrote:Time for dessert then.

Not only is Anakin placed enormously above Obi-Wan but when the system of levels is compressed from one to nine to one to eight Anakin is potentially placed above Yoda and Sidious. Considering the richter scale this puts him even further above Kenobi during Knightfall.

"There's up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it's a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment." Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. "I've got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn't really exist," says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps. "It's only a writing tool," he says, "but it gives you the edge over ti just being a fight." 

Source is here: https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/star-wars-den-of-geek-goes-jedi-training-with-nick-gillard/

Before LOTL says this means Mustafar Anakin is peak Anakin this would've applied to Knightfall Vader only. Unless anyone wants to still argue Mustafar Kenobi = Peak Anakin in the Force. 

So what we can conclude that unhindered Anakin is potentially even farther above Kenobi than we may realize.

Whoever wrote that article was either a numpty who misremembered/misquoted what Gillard said because Gillard has never talked about a tier system that grades these characters on that level in the other interviews he's in (which were video filmed) due to Den of Geek not being an LFL source that is not bound to making sure that they correctly quote people who've worked with Lucasfilm, or Gillard misspoke because he had a massive brainfart about his and Lucas's system.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 26th 2020, 11:26 am
LOTL wrote:I have given a response to Ant bro.

That tier system is not Lucas approved meaning it is irrelevant.
but the one that its mentioned on the interviews before den of geek one its lucas backed up......
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 26th 2020, 1:40 pm
LOTL wrote:I have given a response to Ant bro.

That tier system is not Lucas approved meaning it is irrelevant.

Not his latest one.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 26th 2020, 1:43 pm
Latham2000 wrote:
TheNuisanceBird wrote:Time for dessert then.

Not only is Anakin placed enormously above Obi-Wan but when the system of levels is compressed from one to nine to one to eight Anakin is potentially placed above Yoda and Sidious. Considering the richter scale this puts him even further above Kenobi during Knightfall.

"There's up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it's a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment." Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. "I've got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn't really exist," says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps. "It's only a writing tool," he says, "but it gives you the edge over ti just being a fight." 

Source is here: https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/star-wars-den-of-geek-goes-jedi-training-with-nick-gillard/

Before LOTL says this means Mustafar Anakin is peak Anakin this would've applied to Knightfall Vader only. Unless anyone wants to still argue Mustafar Kenobi = Peak Anakin in the Force. 

So what we can conclude that unhindered Anakin is potentially even farther above Kenobi than we may realize.

Whoever wrote that article was either a numpty who misremembered/misquoted what Gillard said because Gillard has never talked about a tier system that grades these characters on that level in the other interviews he's in (which were video filmed) due to Den of Geek not being an LFL source that is not bound to making sure that they correctly quote people who've worked with Lucasfilm, or Gillard misspoke because he had a massive brainfart about his and Lucas's system.

The explanation I've gone with is that it was just compressing them. I haven't found any other source where Gillard has said anything about that interview. 

Either way, given the way Lucas and Gillard rank Anakin him being just as good if not better than Yoda and Sidious is a given anyways.
freethedevil
freethedevil

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 26th 2020, 2:04 pm
@TheNuisanceBird Why do you keep saying consistently matched anakin's tk. He only did it once...
freethedevil
freethedevil

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 26th 2020, 2:11 pm
TheNuisanceBird wrote:
O-Siri wrote:"Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike.




"It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead."

No difference in strength. 

As for Anakin using his furnace heart:

"deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth."

Azronger already exposed the similarities in Anakin's battle mindset in both fights: him using fear as a weapon and turning it into hate and fury just as he was doing on Mustafar.

There's literally no difference, except Anakin's grown more powerful and ferocious. As Gillard says he no longer cares he thinks he's invincible. 

There's no such thing as Force walls in Lucas's vision Star Wars. You either see attack coming and brace yourself for impact or you don't see it in time and you get nailed, just like taking a punch or kick. Just watch Anakin vs Ventress on Kamino: Ventress nails him with a Force push earily in the battle then in the same battle Anakin blunts the attack no problem. Dooku pushed and gripped Kenobi because he timed Kenobi and didn't see them coming unlike on Obi-Diah where he blunted Dooku's push no problem. Neighter Anakin or Kenobi could TK the other when they weren't expecting it cause the know each tother too well. TPM Maul needed to catch TPM Kenobi off guard to push him as per the script and the creators of TCW thought it was possible for Maul to grip Sidious and I doubt even then they were thinking Maul was outright more powerful, just good enough to catch him with his guard down.

Finally something good. See we're finally getting somewhere with this. 





I don't think that we can say their strength is similar when one version taxed Dooku the way he did whereas the other couldn't directly overpower Kenobi physically, which going by the Dooku's augmentation, he should've. 
Well, per the novelization, "dook's makashi simply couldn't generate the force" to defend. That might just be a matter of style make fights.
Latham2000
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April 26th 2020, 2:35 pm
Guys, let's not forget this:

"OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN.


Both combatants are blasted backward onto the control panels." -- Revenge of the Sith Screenplay.

If you look at it from the screenplay's perspective, Kenobi was the aggressor, Anakin was just defending by blocking Obi-Wan in that TK contest. Kenobi kept pushing until there was too much Force energy for both of them to contain, overloading their Force defenses, hence why they are both sent flying. Kenobi didn't match Anakin's power he just kept exerting offensive TK whilst Anakin kept exerting a Force defense until their collective power couldn't be contained Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 1220391476


Last edited by Latham2000 on April 26th 2020, 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 26th 2020, 2:39 pm
That's actually a great feat for Obi Wan
CuckedCurry
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) - Page 3 Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 26th 2020, 2:50 pm
freethedevil, are you ILS?
Latham2000
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April 26th 2020, 2:56 pm
Yes.
freethedevil
freethedevil

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April 26th 2020, 3:57 pm
CuckedCurry wrote:freethedevil, are you ILS?
How'd you know?
SithSauce
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April 26th 2020, 4:11 pm
CuckedCurry wrote:freethedevil, are you ILS?
he's called Kbroskywalker
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