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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 22nd 2020, 3:26 pm
This is the version of Obi Wan's apprentice on the IH before his transformation by Palpatine's comments in the battle. Can Obi Wan beat him then?
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MP
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 22nd 2020, 3:40 pm
I'd probably put my money on Kenobi.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 22nd 2020, 11:58 pm
Kenobi. Anakin doesn't hate Obi-Wan at this point so he'd naturally be hesitant to fight like he did against Dooku.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 22nd 2020, 11:59 pm
kenobi giving the cirscumtances of the anakin he is fightning
Latham2000
Latham2000
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 12:25 am
Anakin tbh.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 1:55 am
Invisible Hand Anakin plasters Kenobi into the ground even morals on with him holding back. Kenobi had to constantly retreat from MV and even put himself in danger to get away from Anakin. 

He wouldn't have the space to do so in this fight against an unhindered Anakin so he'd basically be completely fucked.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 1:59 am
TheNuisanceBird wrote:Invisible Hand Anakin plasters Kenobi into the ground even morals on with him holding back. Kenobi had to constantly retreat from MV and even put himself in danger to get away from Anakin. 

He wouldn't have the space to do so in this fight against an unhindered Anakin so he'd basically be completely fucked.

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) 1289255181
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 2:29 am
TheNuisanceBird wrote:Invisible Hand Anakin plasters Kenobi into the ground even morals on with him holding back. Kenobi had to constantly retreat from MV and even put himself in danger to get away from Anakin. 

He wouldn't have the space to do so in this fight against an unhindered Anakin so he'd basically be completely fucked.

There is no "hindered" Anakin. Mustafar Anakin is better than IH Anakin canonically
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 2:34 am
This notion of Anakin being "hugely" hindered is one notion that I am itching to get rid of. Anyone care to present the best argument in favor of it so that I can begin?
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MP
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Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 2:50 am
Wait, is this "let go" Kenobi?
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 2:52 am
Meatpants wrote:Wait, is this "let go" Kenobi?

It is his best version, whether you believe that he "let go" or the quote from the Interactive novel
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 2:58 am
LOTL wrote:This notion of Anakin being "hugely" hindered is one notion that I am itching to get rid of. Anyone care to present the best argument in favor of it so that I can begin?

Well for starters the ROTS novel states how Anakin hadn't eat or slept for several days and before Padme landed it was described how he felt weakened in the Force with the dragon symbolism. 

If we go by Legends Anakin's feats leading up to ROTS and during the Invisible Hand fight all point to him being able to overpower Kenobi under normal circumstances. Anakin being hindered explains why Kenobi was able to match his Force push in the film even though every one of Anakin's best TK feats > Kenobi's. 

Even in the novel Anakin TK's Kenobi into walls at least twice and the mechanical manipulation of Anakin's arm wouldn't have happened to Invisible Hand Anakin. 

At the very least I feel comfortable saying that baseline ROTS Anakin > ROTS Kenobi on neutral ground.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 2:59 am
LOTL wrote:
Meatpants wrote:Wait, is this "let go" Kenobi?

It is his best version, whether you believe that he "let go" or the quote from the Interactive novel

I don't currently have my ROTS novel copy with me but it's that at the very end of the fight just before he flips onto the high ground?
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 3:19 am
TheNuisanceBird wrote:
LOTL wrote:This notion of Anakin being "hugely" hindered is one notion that I am itching to get rid of. Anyone care to present the best argument in favor of it so that I can begin?

Well for starters the ROTS novel states how Anakin hadn't eat or slept for several days and before Padme landed it was described how he felt weakened in the Force with the dragon symbolism. 

If we go by Legends Anakin's feats leading up to ROTS and during the Invisible Hand fight all point to him being able to overpower Kenobi under normal circumstances. Anakin being hindered explains why Kenobi was able to match his Force push in the film even though every one of Anakin's best TK feats > Kenobi's. 

Even in the novel Anakin TK's Kenobi into walls at least twice and the mechanical manipulation of Anakin's arm wouldn't have happened to Invisible Hand Anakin. 

At the very least I feel comfortable saying that baseline ROTS Anakin > ROTS Kenobi on neutral ground.

The not eating and not sleeping applies to KFV too. Or office Anakin, or the Anakin that comes to Mustafar and quotes have all those versions of Anakin as more powerful than ever before. Not to mention, not sleeping for days basically does almost nothing to even trainee Bane so I doubt it would do anything to infinitely superior people like Anakin

Lastly, Obi Wan too has not slept for a long time( probably since his battle with Grevious) and certainly there is no indication that he ate anything since we pretty much have his timeline accounted for. At the very least, even he has not received much rest or nourishment at all. Lone Wolf notes that he is suffering from tiring for the past few days and that takes place a day after the movie, so it encompasses the Grevious timeline, meaning he has not gotten any replenishment since then. So, yeah, this excuse is pretty thin

It is also stated in countless quotes that he is growing more powerful, is already more powerful, and becomes more powerful later on, or at the timeline so I also find the "dragon" part of it pretty thin too. Not to mention, absolutely nowhere is it stated, implied or even reasonably hinted at that the "dragon" part on Mustafar weakens or hinders him and we have multiple quotes that put him as more powerful than before, or growing more powerful etc. after that part in the novel. Theories that quite frankly are a bit reaching are not as important as the intent of the statements that portray Anakin's level pretty clearly

Please elaborate. Other than the Theta storm feat( which I chalk to Anakin accessing his latent potential) and the handling of Dooku, Anakin has little more in terms of battle accomplishments that is more impressive. I'll also mention that he has been both force one-shotted and physically beaten by Obi Wan before, though both have circumstances in play, it is still pretty impressive for Obi Wan. Also, in terms of strict battle feats I find the feat of handling Maul and Savage a year before his prime to be almost as impressive as Anakin beating Dooku

Yeah, that has nothing to do with overpowering Obi Wan's force barrier but catching him off guard. Obi Wan defends his force pushes later on with not much trouble at all.

Yeah, I cannot agree but then that is not relevant to Anakin being hindered here which is the point
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 3:23 am
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 4:13 am
LOTL wrote:
TheNuisanceBird wrote:
LOTL wrote:This notion of Anakin being "hugely" hindered is one notion that I am itching to get rid of. Anyone care to present the best argument in favor of it so that I can begin?

Well for starters the ROTS novel states how Anakin hadn't eat or slept for several days and before Padme landed it was described how he felt weakened in the Force with the dragon symbolism. 

If we go by Legends Anakin's feats leading up to ROTS and during the Invisible Hand fight all point to him being able to overpower Kenobi under normal circumstances. Anakin being hindered explains why Kenobi was able to match his Force push in the film even though every one of Anakin's best TK feats > Kenobi's. 

Even in the novel Anakin TK's Kenobi into walls at least twice and the mechanical manipulation of Anakin's arm wouldn't have happened to Invisible Hand Anakin. 

At the very least I feel comfortable saying that baseline ROTS Anakin > ROTS Kenobi on neutral ground.

The not eating and not sleeping applies to KFV too. Or office Anakin, or the Anakin that comes to Mustafar and quotes have all those versions of Anakin as more powerful than ever before. Not to mention, not sleeping for days basically does almost nothing to even trainee Bane so I doubt it would do anything to infinitely superior people like Anakin

Lastly, Obi Wan too has not slept for a long time( probably since his battle with Grevious) and certainly there is no indication that he ate anything since we pretty much have his timeline accounted for. At the very least, even he has not received much rest or nourishment at all. Lone Wolf notes that he is suffering from tiring for the past few days and that takes place a day after the movie, so it encompasses the Grevious timeline, meaning he has not gotten any replenishment since then. So, yeah, this excuse is pretty thin

It is also stated in countless quotes that he is growing more powerful, is already more powerful, and becomes more powerful later on, or at the timeline so I also find the "dragon" part of it pretty thin too. Not to mention, absolutely nowhere is it stated, implied or even reasonably hinted at that the "dragon" part on Mustafar weakens or hinders him and we have multiple quotes that put him as more powerful than before, or growing more powerful etc. after that part in the novel. Theories that quite frankly are a bit reaching are not as important as the intent of the statements that portray Anakin's level pretty clearly

Please elaborate. Other than the Theta storm feat( which I chalk to Anakin accessing his latent potential) and the handling of Dooku, Anakin has little more in terms of battle accomplishments that is more impressive. I'll also mention that he has been both force one-shotted and physically beaten by Obi Wan before, though both have circumstances in play, it is still pretty impressive for Obi Wan. Also, in terms of strict battle feats I find the feat of handling Maul and Savage a year before his prime to be almost as impressive as Anakin beating Dooku

Yeah, that has nothing to do with overpowering Obi Wan's force barrier but catching him off guard. Obi Wan defends his force pushes later on with not much trouble at all.

Yeah, I cannot agree but then that is not relevant to Anakin being hindered here which is the point

The ROTS still has a part where Anakin experiences dizziness because of his lack of sleep/food.

Anakin not sleeping or eating in those cases doesn't matter as much because prior to Knightfall it's stated that him opening his furnace heart is basically himself giving himself permission to use his full power so when he went to the temple these factors likely didn't apply. Obi-Wan likely was eating and sleeping in the days Anakin wasn't when they were on Coruscant and the time frame between him getting shot down by Cody and confronting Anakin on Mustafar at most is probably a day. That's not as bad as several and even then he was picked up by Bail and Yoda so there's a possibility he at least eat there. 

The quotes I remember refer to him during Knightfall and in the film when Sidious says his powers are growing stronger are before Mustafar where going by George Lucas's line editing of the novel and Nick Gillard's commentary they had to nerf Anakin. Hayden Christensen said behind that scenes that there had to be this exchange of power so Anakin wouldn't look better than Obi-Wan even though he was supposed to. In the ROTS novel it's said how Anakin feels poisoned by the Force after killing Jedi and the CIS council. This would explain why his physical augmentation from the IH is absent in the Mustafar fight considering that while Anakin does push Kenobi back there's literally a moment where Obi-Wan manages to overpower him when they grab each others arms.  

What do you mean Anakin doesn't have TK feats that put him above Kenobi? Anakin's been able to tear apart a giant spider droid, ragdoll Ventress once he got serious, shatter a 30 x 90 meter dome with a Force scream, and in the ROTS graphic novel Force push Dooku. The time Anakin got sent flying when he was about to attack Ventress doesn't count as that wasn't a direct attack to his Force wall and it was when he was going through the air. If you're referring to their fight in TCW that's a heavily nerfed version of Anakin that got blitzed by a SPED monkey. 

Obi-Wan deflects several of his blasts but during Anakin's Force waves he is sent back at least twice. In a straight up Force battle Anakin should win against Kenobi. 

If we're going to say that Anakin's stronger on Mustafar we first have to establish that Kenobi was basically an equal to a version of Anakin better than the one that two-shotted Cin Drallig and severely outclassed Dooku. I don't see that being realistic.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 4:13 am

As for these I will read these later and respond accordingly.
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LOTL

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 5:01 am
TheNuisanceBird wrote:
LOTL wrote:
TheNuisanceBird wrote:
LOTL wrote:This notion of Anakin being "hugely" hindered is one notion that I am itching to get rid of. Anyone care to present the best argument in favor of it so that I can begin?

Well for starters the ROTS novel states how Anakin hadn't eat or slept for several days and before Padme landed it was described how he felt weakened in the Force with the dragon symbolism. 

If we go by Legends Anakin's feats leading up to ROTS and during the Invisible Hand fight all point to him being able to overpower Kenobi under normal circumstances. Anakin being hindered explains why Kenobi was able to match his Force push in the film even though every one of Anakin's best TK feats > Kenobi's. 

Even in the novel Anakin TK's Kenobi into walls at least twice and the mechanical manipulation of Anakin's arm wouldn't have happened to Invisible Hand Anakin. 

At the very least I feel comfortable saying that baseline ROTS Anakin > ROTS Kenobi on neutral ground.

The not eating and not sleeping applies to KFV too. Or office Anakin, or the Anakin that comes to Mustafar and quotes have all those versions of Anakin as more powerful than ever before. Not to mention, not sleeping for days basically does almost nothing to even trainee Bane so I doubt it would do anything to infinitely superior people like Anakin

Lastly, Obi Wan too has not slept for a long time( probably since his battle with Grevious) and certainly there is no indication that he ate anything since we pretty much have his timeline accounted for. At the very least, even he has not received much rest or nourishment at all. Lone Wolf notes that he is suffering from tiring for the past few days and that takes place a day after the movie, so it encompasses the Grevious timeline, meaning he has not gotten any replenishment since then. So, yeah, this excuse is pretty thin

It is also stated in countless quotes that he is growing more powerful, is already more powerful, and becomes more powerful later on, or at the timeline so I also find the "dragon" part of it pretty thin too. Not to mention, absolutely nowhere is it stated, implied or even reasonably hinted at that the "dragon" part on Mustafar weakens or hinders him and we have multiple quotes that put him as more powerful than before, or growing more powerful etc. after that part in the novel. Theories that quite frankly are a bit reaching are not as important as the intent of the statements that portray Anakin's level pretty clearly

Please elaborate. Other than the Theta storm feat( which I chalk to Anakin accessing his latent potential) and the handling of Dooku, Anakin has little more in terms of battle accomplishments that is more impressive. I'll also mention that he has been both force one-shotted and physically beaten by Obi Wan before, though both have circumstances in play, it is still pretty impressive for Obi Wan. Also, in terms of strict battle feats I find the feat of handling Maul and Savage a year before his prime to be almost as impressive as Anakin beating Dooku

Yeah, that has nothing to do with overpowering Obi Wan's force barrier but catching him off guard. Obi Wan defends his force pushes later on with not much trouble at all.

Yeah, I cannot agree but then that is not relevant to Anakin being hindered here which is the point

The ROTS still has a part where Anakin experiences dizziness because of his lack of sleep/food.

Anakin not sleeping or eating in those cases doesn't matter as much because prior to Knightfall it's stated that him opening his furnace heart is basically himself giving himself permission to use his full power so when he went to the temple these factors likely didn't apply. Obi-Wan likely was eating and sleeping in the days Anakin wasn't when they were on Coruscant and the time frame between him getting shot down by Cody and confronting Anakin on Mustafar at most is probably a day. That's not as bad as several and even then he was picked up by Bail and Yoda so there's a possibility he at least eat there. 

The quotes I remember refer to him during Knightfall and in the film when Sidious says his powers are growing stronger are before Mustafar where going by George Lucas's line editing of the novel and Nick Gillard's commentary they had to nerf Anakin. Hayden Christensen said behind that scenes that there had to be this exchange of power so Anakin wouldn't look better than Obi-Wan even though he was supposed to. In the ROTS novel it's said how Anakin feels poisoned by the Force after killing Jedi and the CIS council. This would explain why his physical augmentation from the IH is absent in the Mustafar fight considering that while Anakin does push Kenobi back there's literally a moment where Obi-Wan manages to overpower him when they grab each others arms.  

What do you mean Anakin doesn't have TK feats that put him above Kenobi? Anakin's been able to tear apart a giant spider droid, ragdoll Ventress once he got serious, shatter a 30 x 90 meter dome with a Force scream, and in the ROTS graphic novel Force push Dooku. The time Anakin got sent flying when he was about to attack Ventress doesn't count as that wasn't a direct attack to his Force wall and it was when he was going through the air. If you're referring to their fight in TCW that's a heavily nerfed version of Anakin that got blitzed by a SPED monkey. 

Obi-Wan deflects several of his blasts but during Anakin's Force waves he is sent back at least twice. In a straight up Force battle Anakin should win against Kenobi. 

If we're going to say that Anakin's stronger on Mustafar we first have to establish that Kenobi was basically an equal to a version of Anakin better than the one that two-shotted Cin Drallig and severely outclassed Dooku. I don't see that being realistic.

I get the impression that you have gone through ShootingNova's blog on the matter and are almost quoting it here. While it was a great blog for its time, it is mostly outdated pretty heavily for the current era

1. The Lone Wolf refers to the "past few days" so yeah, it is several.

Besides these are very, very minute factors because as mentioned, even trainee Bane can go without sleep( or food?) for that many number of days and function well.

2. No, those quote are not only just before the battle, they are during the battle, after the dragon bit, etc. Absolutely nowhere does Gillard say they have to nerf Anakin, on the contrary, he explicitly says this

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/?page=1

Go to his comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

He explicitly says that Vader is still a 9, it is still something that you have to deal with. Meaning, even in spite of Anakin's mental hindrance( which is what he is calling as bad for him because he hasn't gone to level 9 the right way) he is "still a level 9" in a way that "still has to be dealt with"

Azronger's arguments contain most of the other quotes on the matter

Nowhere in the ROTS novel is it written that Anakin feels poisoned after killing the Jedi whatsoever. Please cite the instance. The only thing in the novel tht is conclusive on the matter is that Anakin muses that can feel his power growing "after" the scene you mention with the "dragon" here

Please quote what Hayden said. Exactly. I would also remind you that a novel is more authoritative than an actor's commentary

2. Obi Wan is able to effortlessly lift and cloak 40m ships, can push multiple trees that are 40-50m in length, effortlessly beat Ventress in TCW( Folini confirms that she was no threat to him whatsoever), can visibly resist Ventress's force attacks better than Anakin( Anakin gets sent flying whereas Obi Wan is pushed only a short way) in the same story, and can force push both Maul and Savage at the same time. Note that Savage has force choked both Dooku and Ventress before

3. Please go through all the blogs

4. Why? You have not given any explanation for it being the case
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Three
Level Three

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 5:45 am
Yeah I have got to agree with LOTL. Mustafar Anakin being hindered is a pretty outdated argument that doesn't hold up anymore, I used to believe in that argument but it failed to withstand the test of time.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 6:38 am
Per Gillard Anakin and Obi-Wan are equal as of IH. 

Obi-Wan wins this.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 6:45 am
HeartoftheForce wrote:Per Gillard Anakin and Obi-Wan are equal as of IH. 

Obi-Wan wins this.
Quote?
Ziggy
Ziggy

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 6:50 am
Nononononono. 


ROTS SCRIPT wrote:
As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force. 
Ziggy
Ziggy

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 6:54 am
IH Anakin > IH Dooku > IH Kenobi. 

Kenobi plays support role and is getting tired.  

Dooku's wear is justified for someone defending two sabers at once.  



As for this fight, MF Anakin has to be hindered for their to be any cohesive meaning to the tiers.  Obi held his own too well and for quite a while prior to "letting go".
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 8:48 am
LOTL wrote:
TheNuisanceBird wrote:
LOTL wrote:
TheNuisanceBird wrote:
LOTL wrote:This notion of Anakin being "hugely" hindered is one notion that I am itching to get rid of. Anyone care to present the best argument in favor of it so that I can begin?

Well for starters the ROTS novel states how Anakin hadn't eat or slept for several days and before Padme landed it was described how he felt weakened in the Force with the dragon symbolism. 

If we go by Legends Anakin's feats leading up to ROTS and during the Invisible Hand fight all point to him being able to overpower Kenobi under normal circumstances. Anakin being hindered explains why Kenobi was able to match his Force push in the film even though every one of Anakin's best TK feats > Kenobi's. 

Even in the novel Anakin TK's Kenobi into walls at least twice and the mechanical manipulation of Anakin's arm wouldn't have happened to Invisible Hand Anakin. 

At the very least I feel comfortable saying that baseline ROTS Anakin > ROTS Kenobi on neutral ground.

The not eating and not sleeping applies to KFV too. Or office Anakin, or the Anakin that comes to Mustafar and quotes have all those versions of Anakin as more powerful than ever before. Not to mention, not sleeping for days basically does almost nothing to even trainee Bane so I doubt it would do anything to infinitely superior people like Anakin

Lastly, Obi Wan too has not slept for a long time( probably since his battle with Grevious) and certainly there is no indication that he ate anything since we pretty much have his timeline accounted for. At the very least, even he has not received much rest or nourishment at all. Lone Wolf notes that he is suffering from tiring for the past few days and that takes place a day after the movie, so it encompasses the Grevious timeline, meaning he has not gotten any replenishment since then. So, yeah, this excuse is pretty thin

It is also stated in countless quotes that he is growing more powerful, is already more powerful, and becomes more powerful later on, or at the timeline so I also find the "dragon" part of it pretty thin too. Not to mention, absolutely nowhere is it stated, implied or even reasonably hinted at that the "dragon" part on Mustafar weakens or hinders him and we have multiple quotes that put him as more powerful than before, or growing more powerful etc. after that part in the novel. Theories that quite frankly are a bit reaching are not as important as the intent of the statements that portray Anakin's level pretty clearly

Please elaborate. Other than the Theta storm feat( which I chalk to Anakin accessing his latent potential) and the handling of Dooku, Anakin has little more in terms of battle accomplishments that is more impressive. I'll also mention that he has been both force one-shotted and physically beaten by Obi Wan before, though both have circumstances in play, it is still pretty impressive for Obi Wan. Also, in terms of strict battle feats I find the feat of handling Maul and Savage a year before his prime to be almost as impressive as Anakin beating Dooku

Yeah, that has nothing to do with overpowering Obi Wan's force barrier but catching him off guard. Obi Wan defends his force pushes later on with not much trouble at all.

Yeah, I cannot agree but then that is not relevant to Anakin being hindered here which is the point

The ROTS still has a part where Anakin experiences dizziness because of his lack of sleep/food.

Anakin not sleeping or eating in those cases doesn't matter as much because prior to Knightfall it's stated that him opening his furnace heart is basically himself giving himself permission to use his full power so when he went to the temple these factors likely didn't apply. Obi-Wan likely was eating and sleeping in the days Anakin wasn't when they were on Coruscant and the time frame between him getting shot down by Cody and confronting Anakin on Mustafar at most is probably a day. That's not as bad as several and even then he was picked up by Bail and Yoda so there's a possibility he at least eat there. 

The quotes I remember refer to him during Knightfall and in the film when Sidious says his powers are growing stronger are before Mustafar where going by George Lucas's line editing of the novel and Nick Gillard's commentary they had to nerf Anakin. Hayden Christensen said behind that scenes that there had to be this exchange of power so Anakin wouldn't look better than Obi-Wan even though he was supposed to. In the ROTS novel it's said how Anakin feels poisoned by the Force after killing Jedi and the CIS council. This would explain why his physical augmentation from the IH is absent in the Mustafar fight considering that while Anakin does push Kenobi back there's literally a moment where Obi-Wan manages to overpower him when they grab each others arms.  

What do you mean Anakin doesn't have TK feats that put him above Kenobi? Anakin's been able to tear apart a giant spider droid, ragdoll Ventress once he got serious, shatter a 30 x 90 meter dome with a Force scream, and in the ROTS graphic novel Force push Dooku. The time Anakin got sent flying when he was about to attack Ventress doesn't count as that wasn't a direct attack to his Force wall and it was when he was going through the air. If you're referring to their fight in TCW that's a heavily nerfed version of Anakin that got blitzed by a SPED monkey. 

Obi-Wan deflects several of his blasts but during Anakin's Force waves he is sent back at least twice. In a straight up Force battle Anakin should win against Kenobi. 

If we're going to say that Anakin's stronger on Mustafar we first have to establish that Kenobi was basically an equal to a version of Anakin better than the one that two-shotted Cin Drallig and severely outclassed Dooku. I don't see that being realistic.

I get the impression that you have gone through ShootingNova's blog on the matter and are almost quoting it here. While it was a great blog for its time, it is mostly outdated pretty heavily for the current era

1. The Lone Wolf refers to the "past few days" so yeah, it is several.

Besides these are very, very minute factors because as mentioned, even trainee Bane can go without sleep( or food?) for that many number of days and function well.

2. No, those quote are not only just before the battle, they are during the battle, after the dragon bit, etc. Absolutely nowhere does Gillard say they have to nerf Anakin, on the contrary, he explicitly says this

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/?page=1

Go to his comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

He explicitly says that Vader is still a 9, it is still something that you have to deal with. Meaning, even in spite of Anakin's mental hindrance( which is what he is calling as bad for him because he hasn't gone to level 9 the right way) he is "still a level 9" in a way that "still has to be dealt with"

Azronger's arguments contain most of the other quotes on the matter

Nowhere in the ROTS novel is it written that Anakin feels poisoned after killing the Jedi whatsoever. Please cite the instance. The only thing in the novel tht is conclusive on the matter is that Anakin muses that can feel his power growing "after" the scene you mention with the "dragon" here

Please quote what Hayden said. Exactly. I would also remind you that a novel is more authoritative than an actor's commentary

2. Obi Wan is able to effortlessly lift and cloak 40m ships, can push multiple trees that are 40-50m in length, effortlessly beat Ventress in TCW( Folini confirms that she was no threat to him whatsoever), can visibly resist Ventress's force attacks better than Anakin( Anakin gets sent flying whereas Obi Wan is pushed only a short way) in the same story, and can force push both Maul and Savage at the same time. Note that Savage has force choked both Dooku and Ventress before

3. Please go through all the blogs

4. Why? You have not given any explanation for it being the case

I'm mainly going by the ROTS novel and what's been said about Anakin around that time. 

So sure it's several days but I still don't see how the lack of sleep or food is a minor factor where the book has Anakin getting dizzy. 

I've read those blogs and seen the saberproject interview. He lists Anakin as a 9 there as well as the ROTS behind the scenes. I'm not saying Anakin during Mustafar isn't a 9, due to Kenobi constantly having to get away from him he clearly is. My point is that going by the ROTS novel which was line edited by Lucas Anakin is clearly functioning better on the IH than he is on Mustafar. 

It is written in there. I unfortunately don't have my copy with me but it's described how Anakin feels like the dragon stuck it's fangs into his heel. If I hadn't left the book at my apartment before the virus I'd give the quote. Even considering Anakin feeling his power growing that makes absolutely no sense if Kenobi was able to indirectly get past his Force wall and match him in the TK stand off. The only explanation for Obi-Wan being able to do that is Anakin's Force abilities not being used at their normal capacity. 

Hayden says it here at 2:47

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJ9PCmBl_4


All of those things are things ROTS Anakin could do. If it's unclear I'm going by Legends as I've previously mentioned TCW isn't the best source to try and scale stuff. Anakin gets blitzed by a SPED monkey in one fight and for some reason can't use the Force to pull back his underwater mask to himself. 

I'm saying that we first have to be convinced that Obi-Wan can consistently equal the supposed strongest version of Anakin in the Force which he does in the film. The ROTS novel makes note on how Dooku had to spend more of his Force reserves parrying and blocking each strike from Anakin than it did to toss Kenobi across the room. 

It makes absolutely no sense to say that Anakin was unhindered during his Force contention with Kenobi, much less that he was stronger at that point. 

Mustafar Anakin AT THE LEAST was hindered in the Force.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

April 23rd 2020, 8:50 am
Ziggy wrote:IH Anakin > IH Dooku > IH Kenobi. 

Kenobi plays support role and is getting tired.  

Dooku's wear is justified for someone defending two sabers at once.  



As for this fight, MF Anakin has to be hindered for their to be any cohesive meaning to the tiers.  Obi held his own too well and for quite a while prior to "letting go".

I agree. He also has to be hindered for the Force contention on Mustafar to make sense unless people wanna argue Kenobi's able to equal out peak Anakin in the Force which is lunacy.
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Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation) Empty Re: Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

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