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BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 9th 2020, 7:49 pm
Kim Jong Caedus is discriminating against Scout so switching back to Mace.
Vader's Legacy
Vader's Legacy
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 12th 2020, 3:36 am
Kueller
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 12th 2020, 11:48 am
Scout still wins.


Last edited by ScionOfSkywalker77 on April 15th 2020, 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 12th 2020, 12:26 pm
Sheev
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Two
Level Two

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 12th 2020, 12:33 pm
Switching to Wankatine
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 12th 2020, 1:21 pm
sheev
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 2:57 pm
PALPATINE AND KUELLER ARE IN THE RUNNING FOR #4.

All votes for Palpatine (9) and Kueller (3) will stay. Anyone who hasn't voted or voted for another may choose between the two. Voting ends in 96 hours.

PLEASE CHANGE YOUR VOTE:
@Bart
@NotAA3
@Reynard (Ethanion)
@KingofBlades
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 3:09 pm
Switching to Scout
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 3:13 pm
@KingofBlades Scout is not in the running.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Two
Level Two

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 3:15 pm
Well based on pure numbers she’s actually miles ahead of Kueller but I’m gonna stick with Wankatine...barely
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 3:20 pm


Skip to 1:40 to see how Scout dies to Kueller ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 1289255181
Vader's Legacy
Vader's Legacy
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 3:41 pm
I'm gonna write in vote scout
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 6:09 pm
Scout. Kueller is no longer in the running, sorry EC.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 6:14 pm
HP and ISV make good cases, I vote Scout
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 6:14 pm
Scout or Sheev? Same level fighters, hard choice.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 7:37 pm
, I switch to Sheev Shitpatine.
Bart
Bart
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 9:06 pm
Kueller
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 15th 2020, 11:18 pm
@Bart wrote:Kueller
yes bart, goooood
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 17th 2020, 1:51 am
Tbh Yoda > Sidious > Anakin. Should look like

Luke
Yoda
Sheev
Anakin
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 17th 2020, 1:57 am
Tbh Plagueis >/~ Kueller across the board save saber skill by a hair. Luke between 11 ABY & 19 BBY was far inferior to his DE self after the trauma of falling to the Dark Side and losing his students to the Dark Side in the JA series, essentially shutting himself off to a significant portion of his power out of fear of misusing his power & falling to the Dark Side again until VotF.

For a long moment Mara gazed coolly at him, and Luke felt a sudden wave of misgiving ripple through his anger. "Such as?" Mara repeated. "Well, let's see.
Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place. Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own. Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister's children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times. Such as unilaterally declaring yourself a Jedi Master after less than ten years on the job. How long a list do you want?"
Luke tried to glare at her. But there was no strength behind the glare, and with a grimace of embarrassment he dropped his gaze from her face. "You're right," he sighed. "You're absolutely right. I don't know, Mara. It's been... I don't know."
"Let me guess," she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. "Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You've had trouble understanding what you're supposed to do, or how you're supposed to behave. You've been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you've been paralyzed with fear that you're going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?"
Luke stared at her. "Yes," he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? "That's it exactly."
-Visions of the Future

None of Luke's feats between DE & VotF explicitly outstrip the likes of Maul or Kenobi tbh. Kenobi being a legitimate threat to Dooku arguably sits him in pre-VotF Luke's range imo. I don't doubt Kueller tier 8 but I have a hard time seeing him scaling to tier 9 considering how post- & simultaneously pre-prime Luke was.
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 17th 2020, 2:41 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Tondemonai wrote:For a long moment Mara gazed coolly at him, and Luke felt a sudden wave of misgiving ripple through his anger. "Such as?" Mara repeated. "Well, let's see.
Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place. Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own. Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister's children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times. Such as unilaterally declaring yourself a Jedi Master after less than ten years on the job. How long a list do you want?"
Luke tried to glare at her. But there was no strength behind the glare, and with a grimace of embarrassment he dropped his gaze from her face. "You're right," he sighed. "You're absolutely right. I don't know, Mara. It's been... I don't know."
"Let me guess," she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. "Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You've had trouble understanding what you're supposed to do, or how you're supposed to behave. You've been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you've been paralyzed with fear that you're going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?"
Luke stared at her. "Yes," he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? "That's it exactly."
-Visions of the Future

Luke between 11 ABY & 19 BBY was far inferior to his DE self

There is nothing suggesting that DE is where the time-frame starts, as DE isn't even mentioned in this quote. 

after the trauma of falling to the Dark Side and losing his students to the Dark Side in the JA series, essentially shutting himself off to a significant portion of his power out of fear of misusing his power & falling to the Dark Side again until VotF.

You'd be right, if Mara didn't explicitly mention "more often than not". In order to say "more often than not" there would have to be a "not" in the first place. This means that Luke explicitly has used the full extent of his powers before VotF more than one occasion. 

This also contradicts the exact state Luke was in during his final duel with Kueller.

Spoiler:
Luke dodged as Leia's lightsaber sailed in the air toward him, landing neatly in his fingers.

Immediately he ignited the blade and its reassuring hum echoed in the growing darkness.

"Ah," Kueller said. "So you have chosen to fight me. Careful, Master Skywalker. If you do so with the wrong attitude, you might join my side."

"I've fought better than you, Kueller," Luke said. The lightsaber felt odd in his hand. "And won."

"Years ago, Skywalker. You've become complacent." Kueller slashed at Luke. Luke parried, the electric clash of blades ringing in the night air.

Then Kueller whirled and blocked several bursts of blaster fire. Leia peeked out of the bay doors.

"Leave him alone, Kueller. It's me you want!" she yelled.

His death mask glowed from an internal light. It made his smile even more sinister than usual. "Actually, President, I want your entire family. Without them, there are no true Jedi." Luke inched closer. His blade was still out, still humming. He wanted Kueller to fight him, not Leia. Leia wasn't ready yet. "Actually, Kueller, there are dozens of Jedi now."

"But not Jedi Masters, Skywalker."

"There are more than you imagine," Luke said, thinking of Callista. She would provide quite a battle against Kueller, even without the Force.

Kueller turned to Luke, and Leia fired again. Without even looking at her, Kueller blocked the blaster shots. The shots flew harmlessly to the sides. Then her blaster rose in the air, and exploded a few feet above her head.

"Use another of those, President, and it will explode in your hand."

"You like explosions, don't you, Kueller?" she said. Luke suppressed a smile. She was trying to distract him so Luke could attack. But it wasn't that easy. Kueller had pushed Luke far enough that Luke's feelings were confused. He wasn't certain if he was going after Kueller out of anger or hatred, instead of in defense. That would only make Kueller stronger.

He seemed to be stronger anyway, giving credence to Luke's theory.

"Small explosions, President," Kueller said, his blade still locked with Luke's. "Large ones destroy wealth." Leia stepped out of the bay. She was unarmed. "Even if you kill us, Kueller, you won't get the rest of us. The explosives you put in the droids won't work. We shut the droids off."

"Did you, now?" Kueller's tone was mocking. Luke could feel the physical pressure Kueller was putting on the blade. They were locked in a battle of wills, their strength holding the blades together in a haze of light. "You managed to tell all the developed planets about the droids, President? Because if you didn't, then I will still get enough strength from one single order to defeat you all. " A chill ran through Luke. All those lives. All those billions of lives. They meant nothing more to Kueller than a breath of air, a surge of adrenaline, a swallow of food. Anger flowed through Luke, deep and fine and rich. He had created this monster. Luke, through his arrogance, had given Kueller all the tools he needed to destroy the entire galaxy. If Luke hadn't taught all his students about the dark side, if he hadn't warned them repeatedly and in detail about the quick and easy path, then Kueller would still be Dolph, not this hateful being who wore a death mask proudly and dealt in lives as a smuggler dealt in stolen goods.

Kueller turned toward Luke and grinned. His lightsaber broke free from the enmeshment and whooshed near Luke. Luke jumped aside, pain shivering through his back, and down his arms.

Kueller had suddenly gotten stronger.

"Kueller!" Leia shouted. She held another blaster. He turned his attention to her, and Luke thrust his blade toward Kueller's side, drawing blood before Kueller swirled away.

Easy blood. The lightsaber moved with a sureness Luke had never felt before.

Leia's blaster was turning red. She tossed it aside before it exploded, and rolled in the opposite direction.

Kueller had turned back to Luke, thrusting, parrying, thrusting, their sabers locked in a battle as loud and spark-filled as Luke's battle with Vader. Kueller's breath hissed through the mask, but it wasn't Vader's stentorian breathing that it imitated.

It was the Emperor's greedy gasping.

Luke staggered under Kueller's next blow, and barely managed to roll aside. His ankle kept buckling under him, but he forced himself to put weight on it. They had moved into the alleyway Luke had seen in that strange moment of vision. Stones littered the ground all around them, and the light only came through a small opening on either end. Luke could no longer see Leia.

Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you.

Kueller struck at him, his blow shattering a nearby rock. He was stronger. Much stronger. And his strength seemed to be increasing. Luke's arms were growing tired battling the power of Kueller's blade.

Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.

Fueled by hatred, anger, and fear.

Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger.

Kueller slammed his blade against Luke's, and the sparks lit the area all around them. Luke parried. Parried again. And again. He was trapped in a cycle of hatred and anger. If he fought, Kueller got stronger, and if he attacked, Kueller got stronger still.

Luke glanced at the mouth of the alley.

No Leia.

He was alone with this thing he had created. The rogue student. The Vader to his Ben.

Vader.

Ben.

Luke grinned. He suddenly knew what he had to do to break free.

---

It was Luke's name.

And she said it in a voice that Han had never heard before, but he knew what it meant.

It meant he was too late.

Her hands were useless, and Kueller was no longer listening to her arguments. He was watching Luke.

Luke, who looked like a man possessed.

Luke, who had always warned her not to give in to anger, was giving in to his.

And Kueller was smiling. He seemed to be growing taller, and broader, the aura of power around him so great that it made him seem invincible.

Then a look passed across Luke's face. It was a familiar look, but it wasn't his. She had seen it before.

On the day she met him, so many years ago.

She had seen that look the only time she had seen Obi-Wan Kenobi alive. He had been fighting Darth Vader, and then he smiled, and raised his lightsaber--and Vader cut him in half. His lightsaber's blade faded, the hilt spinning through the air before landing on his empty, steaming cloak.

Luke had said Obi-Wan believed that moment made him stronger, but really it had only made him dead.

Dead.

Leia stumbled a few steps forward. Luke didn't see her in the growing darkness. Kueller hesitated as Luke slowly raised his light-saber blade toward his face.

Just as Obi-Wan had.

Kueller smiled.

Just as Vader must have.

"Luuuuuuuuuuke!" Leia screamed as Kueller brought his lightsaber up, preparing to strike.

---

Luke was raising his lightsaber, his heart pounding. He was reaching out with the Force, going back to the place he had gone when he first fought Exar Kun. He would be out of his body but protected within the Force. Just as Ben had done in his battle with Darth Vader.

Luke would come back even stronger, and he would guide Leia to defeat Kueller.

Luke's lightsaber had reached a thirty-degree angle with his chin when he felt as if he were wrapped in a warm, soft blanket. He could still see through his eyes, but the rest of his senses were suddenly dim. He could no longer sense Leia or even Kueller.

His blade came up, and Kueller's blade swung back, but Luke couldn't leave his own body. He had lost the Force. It was gone. He was blind and numb without it.

He would die without it

Kueller's blade came down, and Luke limped out of the way only to back into the ruined tower wall. Kueller had him cornered. There was no place to go.

Luke was trapped, both inside, and out.


Luke fights “like a man possessed” with anger and a “sureness he has never felt before", meaning he is not holding back at all. On top of this, in the latter half of the fight, Luke recieves a rage-amp similar to Luke's rage-amp against Vader in RotJ, meaning tremendously amped from his base self. 
 
None of Luke's feats between DE & VotF explicitly outstrip the likes of Maul or Kenobi tbh. 

I'd say BFC!Luke ragdolling mountain-sized fortress with ease sits him far above anything that Maul or Kenobi have done. 

He sat down on the sand, cross-legged and straight-backed, and brought his hands together in his lap, fingertip to fingertip. Concentrating on a picture in his mind, Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him. With eyes that looked inward, he found what he was seeking, like flaws in a near-perfect crystal. He extended his will.

The sand around him stirred. The rocks shuddered, shifted, then began to rise from the sea and the sand as though sifted from them by an invisible screen.

Swirling through the air as they sought their place, the stones took shape as broken wall and shattered foundation, as arch and gate and dome-the ruins of Darth Vader's fortress retreat. It hung in the air around and above Luke as it had once stood atop the cliff, a dark-faced and forbidding edifice.

There was no record in Imperial City's files to say whether his father had ever occupied the fortress, though it had clearly been built for him in accord with his instructions. It had been empty when it was destroyed by a B-wing's blasters, in the days after the New Republic reclaimed Coruscant.

Was this where Vader plotted his conquests in the Emperor's service?

Was this where he had come to rejuvenate after a battle? Had there been celebrations here, self-indulgent pleasures or cruelties? Luke listened for the echoes of the old evils, and could not be certain.

But that did not matter to his plans. As he had redeemed and reclaimed his father, he would redeem and reclaim his father's house.

Now the stones swirled again in the air, joined by others plucked from the sea and stripped from the face of the cliff. Now broken edge fused against broken edge, and the dark faces of the rock lightened as their mineral structure was reshuffled. Now heavy rock walls and floors thinned to an airy elegance as if they were clay in a potter's press.

Now a tower stretched skyward until it rose above the edge of the cliff.

When it was done, the last gap closed, the last rock transformed, the structure securely perched just above the sand on pillars of stone extending down to the bedrock, Luke brought the E-wing down the beach and nestled it in the chamber he had made for it. It was not a door that closed over the opening, though, but a solid wall that closed out not only the wind and the cold, but the world

Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.

But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.

Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.

Also, I'm not sure why bringing feats into a saber tourney is relevant.

Kenobi being a legitimate threat to Dooku arguably sits him in pre-VotF Luke's range imo.

It doesn't at all, as shown above.

I don't doubt Kueller tier 8 but I have a hard time seeing him scaling to tier 9 considering how post- & simultaneously pre-prime Luke was.

Check here. I explain why Kueller scales directly over a Tier 9+, in DE Sidious.
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 17th 2020, 2:35 pm
EmperorCaedus wrote:[There is nothing suggesting that DE is where the time-frame starts, as DE isn't even mentioned in this quote.]

Certainly not, it implies the Jedi Academy trilogy (which takes place shortly after DE, which is the time frame I initially implied is when he begins his notorious jobbing & restriction of his abilities) is when this pattern begins.

[You'd be right, if Mara didn't explicitly mention "more often than not". In order to say "more often than not" there would have to be a "not" in the first place. This means that Luke explicitly has used the full extent of his powers before VotF more than one occasion.]

Fair, which I'd consider his Baste Castle feat an example of (btw thanks for dropping that, been scouring the internet for that shit since 2016 lmao can't tell you how satisfying adding that to my collection of feats is. What's it from?). 

[This also contradicts the exact state Luke was in during his final duel with Kueller.]

Just gonna make some concise points since I don't have a huge amount of time to respond. 

a) Is the “sureness he has never felt before" in reference to his ability to actually cut Kueller, or his fighting ability? I haven't read the Kueller novel, but I recall someone mentioning his armor was relatively resistant to damage, so I'm curious if he has had trouble causing Kueller harm in the past.
b) It seems rather evident based on several lines in the fight that Kueller was directly amping himself off Luke (most notably Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger), implying his performance was either uniquely benefited by the fact he was facing Luke, a man he had a significant personal vendetta with & wanted very much to kill, or that he has a power similar to Scourge which allows him to feed off his opponent's darker emotions. If the former is true he was circumstantially amped against Luke & thus their fight isn't an accurate representation of his baseline. If the latter, his performance is heavily dependent on the emotions of his opponent, and when he doesn't have strong emotions to draw on is fodder enough to be challenged by Callista Ming (pretty piss-poor scaling).
c) I don't have any on-hand, but I recall one or more sources corroborating that in his later years when Luke experiences anger & rage during combat he becomes unfocused, and restricts his power subconsciously so as not to succumb to the Dark Side, which, if applicable to this situation, would mean Luke was performing sub-par to his peak while Kueller was evidently massively amped by the emotions Luke was radiating. 
d) The references to Sidious don't explicitly indicate to me comparability between the two power & skill-wise so much as simply similarities in them personally, I wouldn't personally draw that as reason to scale Kueller to DE Sidious-level based purely on a few similarities drawn in the way they sound.

[Also, I'm not sure why bringing feats into a saber tourney is relevant.]

Establishing a level of power is often essential to gauging one's augmentation capabilities, which significantly impacts one's ability to compete at all with an opponent. 

[It doesn't at all, as shown above.]

Agreed as far as his efforful feats are concerned, however consistently (or "more often than not") he doesn't demonstrate anywhere near that level of power & thus likely doesn't use it (which I've established with the VotF quote). Not being able to stop Desann, getting bodied by Kun-amped-Kyp, and basically everything outside his Baste Castle feat (and arguably his fight with Kueller) are all far inferior displays to his DE self, and hardly outside the range of Kenobi. My overall stance is unchanged, although in relation to his fight with Kueller the jury is still out as I do see some credible implications he was fighting rather effortfully.

[Check here. I explain why Kueller scales directly over a Tier 9+, in DE Sidious.]

I'll give it a look when I can, I've gotta deal with a water damaged phone today so it may not be till this weekend that I actually carve out some time for it.
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 17th 2020, 4:27 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Black Fleet Crisis I: Before The Storm wrote:He sat down on the sand, cross-legged and straight-backed, and brought his hands together in his lap, fingertip to fingertip. Concentrating on a picture in his mind, Luke dipped his awareness deeply into the flow of the Force beneath him. With eyes that looked inward, he found what he was seeking, like flaws in a near-perfect crystal. He extended his will.

The sand around him stirred. The rocks shuddered, shifted, then began to rise from the sea and the sand as though sifted from them by an invisible screen.

Swirling through the air as they sought their place, the stones took shape as broken wall and shattered foundation, as arch and gate and dome-the ruins of Darth Vader's fortress retreat. It hung in the air around and above Luke as it had once stood atop the cliff, a dark-faced and forbidding edifice.

There was no record in Imperial City's files to say whether his father had ever occupied the fortress, though it had clearly been built for him in accord with his instructions. It had been empty when it was destroyed by a B-wing's blasters, in the days after the New Republic reclaimed Coruscant.

Was this where Vader plotted his conquests in the Emperor's service?

Was this where he had come to rejuvenate after a battle? Had there been celebrations here, self-indulgent pleasures or cruelties? Luke listened for the echoes of the old evils, and could not be certain.

But that did not matter to his plans. As he had redeemed and reclaimed his father, he would redeem and reclaim his father's house.

Now the stones swirled again in the air, joined by others plucked from the sea and stripped from the face of the cliff. Now broken edge fused against broken edge, and the dark faces of the rock lightened as their mineral structure was reshuffled. Now heavy rock walls and floors thinned to an airy elegance as if they were clay in a potter's press.

Now a tower stretched skyward until it rose above the edge of the cliff.

When it was done, the last gap closed, the last rock transformed, the structure securely perched just above the sand on pillars of stone extending down to the bedrock, Luke brought the E-wing down the beach and nestled it in the chamber he had made for it. It was not a door that closed over the opening, though, but a solid wall that closed out not only the wind and the cold, but the world.

Black Fleet Crisis III: Tyrant's Nest wrote:Extending his hands and his will, Luke found the points of greatest stress within the structure and pressed upon them, found the points of greatest fragility and sundered them. With a roar that momentarily rivaled the wind, the hermitage collapsed in on itself, crushing the fighter still sealed within it.

But that was not enough to satisfy Luke, not enough to forever erase the temptation. One after another, he raised the pieces of the ruined hermitage, the broken ship, up out of the sand and into the air, crumbling them with the force of his thoughts, until it was a dense, swirling cloud of pebble-sized fragments and metal bits.

Then, with a final, explosive effort of will, he hurled the cloud of debris far out beyond the breakers, where it rained down on the churning water and vanished from sight.

Both are from the BFC novels  ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 1289255181

Just gonna make some concise points since I don't have a huge amount of time to respond. 

a) Is the “sureness he has never felt before" in reference to his ability to actually cut Kueller, or his fighting ability? I haven't read the Kueller novel, but I recall someone mentioning his armor was relatively resistant to damage, so I'm curious if he has had trouble causing Kueller harm in the past.

It's in reference to Luke's fighting ability and mindset, meaning he isn't holding back. He has had trouble with Kueller in the past due to his extensive injuries. It's not noted that Kueller's armor is particularly lightsaber resistant, so yea it being reference to his ability to cut Kueller doesn't make much sense.

b) It seems rather evident based on several lines in the fight that Kueller was directly amping himself off Luke (most notably Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger), implying his performance was either uniquely benefited by the fact he was facing Luke, a man he had a significant personal vendetta with & wanted very much to kill, or that he has a power similar to Scourge which allows him to feed off his opponent's darker emotions. If the former is true he was circumstantially amped against Luke & thus their fight isn't an accurate representation of his baseline. If the latter, his performance is heavily dependent on the emotions of his opponent,

Yes, Kueller did in fact amp himself by feeding off of his opponents darker emotions, thus making him stronger as a result. But these amps are not temporary, they continue to be a permanent part of his power. We see this when at the beginning of the novel, Kueller feeds off the deaths of millions, and that amp becoming a permanent part of his power:

Yet Kueller glowed, as if the pain of those million voices had fed something within him, had made him even greater than he had been before.

And literally absorbing the dark side, making his base more stronger.

"More than enough," she said. "Too many. Kueller's using them to build strength. He's absorbing the dark side like a droid hooked up to a power cable. If this continues, he may be unbeatable."

So all in all, Kueller's amps are not temporary, and become his new permanent power level after gaining them. 

and when he doesn't have strong emotions to draw on is fodder enough to be challenged by Callista Ming (pretty piss-poor scaling).

Here is the quote for reference (also at the top of the spoiler tag).

"There are more than you imagine," Luke said, thinking of Callista. She would provide quite a battle against Kueller, even without the Force." 

The "even" here indicates that Luke is talking about Callista with the Force beforehand, and then without. If she can use the Force, she'll be a threat - but even if she can't, she'll still be a threat. Keep in mind, Luke also says that way before Kueller has his instances of power growth, meaning Callista could be a threat to a pre-prime Kueller, not one who is prime.

c) I don't have any on-hand, but I recall one or more sources corroborating that in his later years when Luke experiences anger & rage during combat he becomes unfocused, and restricts his power subconsciously so as not to succumb to the Dark Side, which, if applicable to this situation, would mean Luke was performing sub-par to his peak while Kueller was evidently massively amped by the emotions Luke was radiating. 

I agree that Luke's later iterations, specifically LotF, are hindered when being enraged. But that is not the case in this fight with Kueller. The battle's intensity is likened to "Luke's battle with Vader," and fights like “like a man possessed” and was "giving into his anger". There is no mention of Luke holding back at all, or restricting his power in any fashion. After Luke realizes that Kueller is seemingly "invincible," he tries to sacrifice himself akin to Obi-Wan in ANH.

d) The references to Sidious don't explicitly indicate to me comparability between the two power & skill-wise so much as simply similarities in them personally, I wouldn't personally draw that as reason to scale Kueller to DE Sidious-level based purely on a few similarities drawn in the way they sound.

I never argued that he is near Sidious due to this alone. There are comparisons to be drawn from Kueller and ROTJ Sidious you can check out here.

Establishing a level of power is often essential to gauging one's augmentation capabilities, which significantly impacts one's ability to compete at all with an opponent. 

I agree to an extent, just keep in mind that there can be massive disparities between one's environmental TK feats and saber feats, see Starkiller.

Agreed as far as his efforful feats are concerned, however consistently (or "more often than not") he doesn't demonstrate anywhere near that level of power & thus likely doesn't use it (which I've established with the VotF quote). Not being able to stop Desann, getting bodied by Kun-amped-Kyp, and basically everything outside his Baste Castle feat (and arguably his fight with Kueller) are all far inferior displays to his DE self, and hardly outside the range of Kenobi. My overall stance is unchanged, although in relation to his fight with Kueller the jury is still out as I do see some credible implications he was fighting rather effortfully.

I agree that he is jobbing a lot, but that VotF quote cannot be used to cap all of Luke's fights and feats. You tried to use it to nullify Kueller's advantages over Luke. Ultimately, that quote doesn't prove much other than Luke jobs a lot, and explicitly has used his full powers before VotF. Comparing Luke's previous fights to establish that Luke is jobbing in his fight with Kueller is completely baseless. They are different fights, different mindsets, etc, that are not connected to Kueller in any form. 

Kenobi and Maul would be obliterated by Kueller. I'm not sure why you keep drawing comparisons to people like Kenobi and Maul, since you haven't established any meaningful connection.
KingofBlades
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★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 17th 2020, 5:11 pm
Sheev
BoD
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★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

on April 17th 2020, 5:16 pm
Mace isn't winning this round so voting for Sheev.
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★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Ten Duelists Tournament #4 - Palpatine

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