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Decaf_Beverages
Decaf_Beverages

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 18th 2019, 2:33 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@KingofBlades wrote:Couldn't it be argued that Kun was just channeling Kyp's latent power instead of his own?

Well he was, that much is immediately obvious and its stated numerous times, but the question is if it would be greater than his own maximum potential power.  I would argue no. Kun as of JA was running on essentially fumes, as quotes tend to back up, and although he was potent he didn't have much power to throw around. After four thousand years of degradation after the wall of light, he had simply had lost too much. He gained something back from Kyp and Gantoris, but based on quotes from Corran Horn and the other students, its likely that he blew most of it to defeat Luke

While his power was being boosted by Exar Kun, Kyp noted that his power was of a much more potent nature than Kyp's own. It's also worth noting that just leeching off them wasn't his only source of power in said instance. Their emotions and hatred and things like that were also giving him power, yet his was still weak enough that casting only a few sorceries against Luke was all he had in him


Last edited by Decaf_Beverages on September 18th 2019, 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Decaf_Beverages
Decaf_Beverages

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 18th 2019, 2:45 pm
@Deronn_Solo wrote:Kun gets no scaling over Luke, lmao. Kueller beat a Luke that was two time injured, hardly shows any superiority.
 
That is in literally no way why the Kueller scaling is good. Nobody in their right mind tries to put Kun > JA Luke though that scaling chain. Assuming Leia is correct in that Kun was more powerful than Kueller, (which is itself debatable) that would immediately place Kun above a whole series of individuals, including Joruus and Vader themselves due to Kueller's Mara Jade accolade, where she states that Kueller was more powerful than anyone since the early days of Sidious
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 21st 2019, 4:54 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Darth Vader wins.

Nexus spirit JA Kun is highly overrated. His feats amount to:

  • Blindsiding JA Luke (who for some reason loses to Desean etc. and is <<< DE Luke in practical power, probably due to inhibitions) with the help of Kyp; sources attribute Luke's defeat to Exar Kun's esoteric dark side techniques and Kyp's raw power.
  • Helping Kyp TK the sun crusher out of Yavin; he's having Kyp draw into his own raw power though. Some take the "feeble exploratory touch" line to suggest something about power, which seems sketchy since just earlier we saw that Exar Kun needed Kyp's raw power, suggesting that he as a spirit couldn't match Kyp in that.
  • Force choking Luke's few-weeks-in trainee students, which is supposed to be an impressive feat or something (?).

He still failed to actually damage Luke's physical body and ran away from spirit Luke. 

Now a hypothetical living JA Kun is indeed highly hyped up, and clearly intended to be more powerful than Luke (though at this stage, Ben Kenobi and many random characters are portrayed as stronger than Luke). It's also implied that living Kun >> Kun + Kyp. The problem here is that we have no reason to think that TotJ Kun ~ JA Kun, given that:

  • Kun had completed an elaborate, mass-scale draining ritual right before his death.
  • Kun had several thousand years to feed on the insanely powerful dark side temples of Yavin IV, and noted to Luke that he had been practicing.
  • Most dark siders in that scenario have been more powerful on their return.

You could argue that TotJ Kun > spirit JA Kun, but even that is rather speculative. TotJ Kun's best showings are:

  • A large and impressive scaling chain over various incarnations of himself and Ulic, Freedon Nadd, etc.
  • Freezing 10,000+ senators with some sort of TP-esque stasis, albeit with his amulets which may or may not boost his power. (Unclear how he does this - it could be Exar Kun's greatest feat, or just some sort of sorcery/hack)
  • Physically breaking beskar. (Maul has a comparable one vs. amphistaff) 

These are impressive feats, but I don't think they're enough to put him above Vader's TFU scaling, Ferus/Jax Pavon/Kar Vastor scaling, and scaling from Mustafar Vader. A lot of those give him some sort of throwing-distance reach to tier 9's, while Exar Kun gets downscaled from SF Malak.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 21st 2019, 5:35 am
Can anyone post the Kun and Kyp v Luke fight? IIRC, Luke didn't even try to fight back, and didn't even want to attack (because him attacking Kyp like that wouldn't be the Jedi way)- once Kyp froze Luke's lightsaber crystal, the latter immediately marshalled his power and went straight into a defensive position.

Basically, it was the full might of Kyp Durron's power, Exar Kun, and an entire Force nexus vs an inexperienced and conflicted Luke Skywalkers defenses.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
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Level Five

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 21st 2019, 5:45 am
I think WolfMyth's blog on this is pretty persuasive.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 21st 2019, 6:30 am
Elm's post was persuasive. I'll tentatively back Vader.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 21st 2019, 9:01 pm
Exar Kun stomps, given his canonical scaling from Ood who dwarfs Sedriss XL, a very real threat to Luke. Not to mention that a spiritual Kun literally subsiding on nothing but the negative emotions of those he corrupted has nowhere near the power of his real self so everything he has there is a magnitude below his actual power.

With scaling from Ragnos, we know that Ragnos's spirit needed all of the energies from Yavin IV, Byss, Dagobah and many more dark side sites combined to restore his spirit to a measure of its full strength. Exar Kun is canonically more powerful and he only had Yavin IV.
Decaf_Beverages
Decaf_Beverages

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 21st 2019, 10:19 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:I think WolfMyth's blog on this is pretty persuasive.

Wolf's blog is revisionist tripe, touting long debunked notions like the idea that the temples on Yavin would have somehow depowered Luke when it was outright shown that Jedi were able to draw from the nexus with absolutely no consequences whatsoever.
Decaf_Beverages
Decaf_Beverages

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 21st 2019, 10:22 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@The Ellimist wrote:Darth Vader wins.

Nexus spirit JA Kun is highly overrated. His feats amount to:

  • Blindsiding JA Luke (who for some reason loses to Desean etc. and is <<< DE Luke in practical power, probably due to inhibitions) with the help of Kyp; sources attribute Luke's defeat to Exar Kun's esoteric dark side techniques and Kyp's raw power.
  • Helping Kyp TK the sun crusher out of Yavin; he's having Kyp draw into his own raw power though. Some take the "feeble exploratory touch" line to suggest something about power, which seems sketchy since just earlier we saw that Exar Kun needed Kyp's raw power, suggesting that he as a spirit couldn't match Kyp in that.
  • Force choking Luke's few-weeks-in trainee students, which is supposed to be an impressive feat or something (?).

He still failed to actually damage Luke's physical body and ran away from spirit Luke. 

Now a hypothetical living JA Kun is indeed highly hyped up, and clearly intended to be more powerful than Luke (though at this stage, Ben Kenobi and many random characters are portrayed as stronger than Luke). It's also implied that living Kun >> Kun + Kyp. The problem here is that we have no reason to think that TotJ Kun ~ JA Kun, given that:

  • Kun had completed an elaborate, mass-scale draining ritual right before his death.
  • Kun had several thousand years to feed on the insanely powerful dark side temples of Yavin IV, and noted to Luke that he had been practicing.
  • Most dark siders in that scenario have been more powerful on their return.

You could argue that TotJ Kun > spirit JA Kun, but even that is rather speculative. TotJ Kun's best showings are:

  • A large and impressive scaling chain over various incarnations of himself and Ulic, Freedon Nadd, etc.
  • Freezing 10,000+ senators with some sort of TP-esque stasis, albeit with his amulets which may or may not boost his power. (Unclear how he does this - it could be Exar Kun's greatest feat, or just some sort of sorcery/hack)
  • Physically breaking beskar. (Maul has a comparable one vs. amphistaff) 

These are impressive feats, but I don't think they're enough to put him above Vader's TFU scaling, Ferus/Jax Pavon/Kar Vastor scaling, and scaling from Mustafar Vader. A lot of those give him some sort of throwing-distance reach to tier 9's, while Exar Kun gets downscaled from SF Malak.

I hardly even know where to begin with this. Expect a post tomorrow
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 3:07 pm
I'll back Kun confidently.
Vader doesn't have the feats to keep up with Exar Kun.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 3:26 pm
I thought you didn't count supremacy quotes, LK, so how is Exar canonically above Ragnos?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 6:50 pm
I said they aren't indisputible, don't try me on double standards.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 6:53 pm
You did make the statement in a very definitive manner. Besides the quote, what puts Kun above Ragnos?
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 6:55 pm
Dude, AP thinks Kun is close to DE Sidious. Ragnos is a fodder to it.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 6:56 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Dude, AP thinks Kun is close to DE Sidious. Ragnos is a fodder to it.
AP's antics notwithstanding, Kun still wrecks your boy Vader.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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Level Five

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 7:00 pm
Perhaps. But perhaps not. I also quite dislike Vader, for personal reasons. So I don't think you can call him "your boy."
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 7:01 pm
I'm specifically referring to quotes that say 'most powerful Sith ever', etc. Per Leland Chee. I also think it goes without saying that quotes with a pretty ridiculously wrong assessment are shady too. Such as the Bane GOAT quote that the Banites have undoubtedly had sexual fantasies about.

Kun is literally stated to be worthy of Ragnos' legacy and power where everyone else since Ragnos wasn't. Furthermore, he's said to be a bigger threat despite having nowhere near the military or Sith that Ragnos had in their Golden Age.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 7:13 pm
"Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he [Exar Kun] was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire."


Isn't this saying the exact same thing as Sidious's accolades, just within a less inclusive time frame? 
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 7:18 pm
No, not at all. It's an era restrictive quote that only covers Dark Lords. Chee specifically referred to most powerful Sith ever, on the basis that all Sith ever would be restricted by the quote. The TCSWE quote is a revised version of Kun's own original GOAT quote from the 90s.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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Level Two

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 7:38 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:No, not at all. It's an era restrictive quote that only covers Dark Lords. Chee specifically referred to most powerful Sith ever, on the basis that all Sith ever would be restricted by the quote. The TCSWE quote is a revised version of Kun's own original GOAT quote from the 90s.
So you're saying the Kun quote only applies to those who bore the title Dark Lord of the Sith during and before his era while Sidious's quote attempts to put him above all sith in general to have come before him?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 7:40 pm
In one case all after him, but yes, essentially. It's also interesting that Leland seemingly supports quotes being binding to characters created after the fact.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 7:51 pm
Interesting. So how would you interpret this quote:

"In the final, climactic issue of this landmark series, two renegade Jedi, Ulic Qel-Droma and Exar Kun, clash in mortal combat. One will be awarded the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, the most feared and powerful force in the galaxy; the other may be awarded a shallow grave."


If taken literally this would place pre prime Ulic and Kun above everyone else in TotJ. Of course the statement could be using the descriptor "feared" as a qualifier, thus excluding jedi like Vodo. Or the statement could be referring specifically to the title "Dark Lord of the Sith" itself.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 7:54 pm
It's the title, not that it isn't obvious that Kun and Ulic are anyway. What's more interesting is the theory that Marka Ragnos literally, permanently amped them with his spiritual energy, as he says his power is there's before they glow with 'more energy' than anything Aleema ever had.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 8:29 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:I said they aren't indisputible, don't try me on double standards.

Okay, you assume negative content when I was just asking a question.

You're flinching at the sign of a hand gesture, for whatever reason.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Vader V Exar Kun - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader V Exar Kun

on September 26th 2019, 8:32 pm
Given how you've replied to me in almost every single other interaction you've ever had with me, excuse me if I'm skeptical.
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