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Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 26th 2020, 6:48 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:Are you an actual dumbass Nihilus? You can't even understand why I wrote "idk" in a post. Go ahead and reply to your own blogs with your sock accounts Bourbon and Darth Zanos pathetic feller.

Trying to insult me personally (as you have also done to others in the past) and calling me inappropriate names because you are mad you have no arguments won't change the situation. Secondly, these are not my accounts. One is for a relative and the other is for a friend. Why would I make make these accounts to reply to my own blogs when there is only 1 comment from these accounts on all the blogs I wrote on here combined ? Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 1668617588
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

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on June 26th 2020, 6:52 am
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Are you an actual dumbass Nihilus? You can't even understand why I wrote "idk" in a post. Go ahead and reply to your own blogs with your sock accounts Bourbon and Darth Zanos pathetic feller.

Trying to insult me personally (as you have also done to others in the past) and calling me inappropriate names because you are mad you have no arguments won't change the situation. Secondly, these are not my accounts. One is for a relative and the other is for a friend. Why would I make make these accounts to reply to my own blogs when there is only 1 comment from these accounts on all the blogs I wrote on here combined ? Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 1668617588

explain why you share the same IP then
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 26th 2020, 6:55 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Are you an actual dumbass Nihilus? You can't even understand why I wrote "idk" in a post. Go ahead and reply to your own blogs with your sock accounts Bourbon and Darth Zanos pathetic feller.

Trying to insult me personally (as you have also done to others in the past) and calling me inappropriate names because you are mad you have no arguments won't change the situation. Secondly, these are not my accounts. One is for a relative and the other is for a friend. Why would I make make these accounts to reply to my own blogs when there is only 1 comment from these accounts on all the blogs I wrote on here combined ? Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 1668617588

explain why you share the same IP then

Because we are staying together? lol
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 26th 2020, 6:57 am
Good excuse. I am sure everyone would believe that.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 26th 2020, 7:03 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:Good excuse. I am sure everyone would believe that.

It seems like you are trying to attack me personally instead of my arguments because you have none. Yup I think we are done. Concession accepted.

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 1076326320


Last edited by Darth Nihilus on June 26th 2020, 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 26th 2020, 7:23 am
Good, productive discussion - that's what I like to see. Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 1289255181

Spoiler:
HellfireUnit ragdolling.
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 26th 2020, 8:46 am
@HellfireUnit Second warning. You're getting banned next.

_________________
Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Sheev_sig_3
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 26th 2020, 7:54 pm
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Nice try, The Merchant or whoever you are. First of all, post your evidence. Second, the whole game wanks Ancients above the Sith Triumvirate and others. Can you make a case for Nihilus being any tier above Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd or Tulak Hord? Make sure you accomplish that first, then maybe people may consider Nihilus not being sub Jaden Korr.

Already been done:

Kreia is comparing/rivaling Nihilus's entity state and not his force power to the ancients. This is exactly mentioned in Kreia’s quote itself:

“I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything into it.

Notice how Kreia mentions the 'rival' part and right after says that Nihilus is ‘already’ (relating to what has been previously said; i.e the rivaling) more of an entity than a living thing.

- Going to need evidence of the ancient Sith being below Jaden Korr

- Going to need evidence of Nihilus being below Jaden Korr

- Going to need evidence of Darth Vader (suited) being above the ancient Sith

And your opinion does not dictate the opinion of others or the majority. Claiming everyone else thinks like you is quite funny and hilarious at best. Considering you also have a problem with 'evidence' and have been throwing around baseless claims throughout all this, I have conveniently provided the definition below:

The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."

Not to mention the fact that your whole 'argument' (if we even call it that) has been entirely debunked and contradicted by Chris's own words himself since he has explicitly stated that he does not directly compare Force user's powers and avoids that pattern himself. You can honestly whine and give a tantrum as much as you like, but the fact still remains that your argument is entirely invalid as per Chris's own words. It's funny how you take Chris's words entirely when he says Vader beats Nihilus but then try to disregard/ignore the fact that he said he does not compare Force users powers directly like we do in versus battles.

I am going to keep this discussion as civil as it could be for my dear friends Azronger and Cilghal's sake. A long case won't even be needed due to the evidences.

Starting with Chris' words, they are consistent. Regardless of Revan's and Vader's strength, skills or anything else, he never once claimed that Revan or Vader would lose against Nihilus and pretty much confirmed the otherwise. It is not that "Chris does not directly compare Force user's powers." In fact Chris himself states it doesn't even come down to raw power versus raw power which shows Nihilus' abilities and powers are pretty irrelevant. Hell, a direct confrontation isn't even necessary since Revan could beat him via his tactical and strategical superiority alone as he himself says "not necessarily fighting them".



In addition, this Tweet alone is more than a proof showing Nihilus would lost to both anyways:

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Nihilu10

He implies that even if Vader went back to past, it would not matter. Now Chris does not have an authority when it comes to determine both Revan and Vader's powers. But he designs and presents Nihilus. It is obvious Nihilus is meant to be below them and many other sources support this claim which I'll be posting.

About Ancients' accolades, you claim it is vague and unquantifiable. It is pretty much obvious in the game that Ancient Sith are above Triumvirate and Avellone once again confirms this claim via a narrative point of view and Nihilus is still meant to be sub-Ancients. I am not even going to mention Dxun stuff because it is not necessary at this point:

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 9fkgpp10

So Nihilus is once again hundred percent confirmed to be below the Ancient Sith we encountered along the way. Pretty much everything implies Nihilus is being buried both PT and TOR scaling chains and is at the rock bottom. Now let's proceed to other sources.


Darth Nihilus is literally a destroyer of worlds, powered by an insatiable hunger that drives him to consume greater and greater populations. While one may reasonably expect someone fallen to the dark side to employ Force lightning against a foe, no one expects a fleet of starships commanded by Sith Lords consuming entire planets. Nor would Nihilus tolerate such a rival and competitor for his sustenance. Given the Sith Lord's unique background, it is not the type of ability that would be taught to an apprentice.
From a game mechanics point of view, there is little need to spend time developing rules and restrictions for such a unique power. It is a story device. From the GM's perspective, Darth Nihilus consumes a world when the plot requires it. However, lesser aspects of his terrible hunger might be used directly against the heroes. These abilities are better emulated by the use of Force talents, powers, secrets, and techniques. In this case, the GM should describe the use of such a talent, like Drain Force, in a manner that suggests that it is powered by his unnatural hunger.
As another example, Darth Sion embodies the unbeatable enemy. He's a Sith so vile that he channels his own anger through the Force to keep himself alive even though he should be dead. Thanks to his intense anger and pain, he literally holds his decaying body together through the dark side of the Force.


Darth Sion's continued existence is best described as a story device, rather than as a specialized Force power that requires constant rolls to keep Sion whole. However, even though the character may believe that his ability to escape death is nearly infinite, it is actually limited by his Destiny Points in an unusual way. When taking a final hit that would normally kill him, he spends a Destiny Point to cause the attack to miss, and his story device background returns him to full hit points and the top of the condition track. Darth Sion cannot be defeated until his Destiny Points are exhausted. Once they are gone, he feels the loss of power, loses the will to fight, and begins to question his existence. From this point, he is susceptible to the Exile's attempts to persuade him to give up his life as a much-desired escape from his painful existence.

-Power Beyond Belief


For years, I have been seeing this comments claiming protaganist beats the antagonist because plot demands it. This phrase confirms the exact opposite and confirms Nihilus and Sion are actually characters who benefit from the plot armor. Avellone himself exactly says that Nihilus is a distraction for a Kreia. The sentence: "lesser aspects of his terrible hunger might be used directly against the heroes." proves that his planetary drain is barely combat applicable and it is suspicious if he can utilize from it to its fullest.

About Nihilus' clash between Exile and her gang, there are pretty much confirmed statements that he isn't a match for the combined might of the Marr and Surik:

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Sw_com10

So Nihilus was basically not a match for Visas Marr and Meetra Surik, who are deep beneath buried the other characters on TOR, PT and NJO.
Before you point it out yeah, everyone knows Meetra is his polar opposite thus disabling his Force Drain. However we learned that Nihilus was in fact amplifying himself further during the fight and yet he still wasn't a match for Meetra and Visas:

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Nihilu11

So we learned that Nihilus was actually amplifying himself during the entire fight after he failed to drain the Exile. Despite that, he is still not a match or whatsoever to Meetra and her companions.

As an extra, KOTOR Campaign Guide and COTF TOR merchandise shows Nihilus is significantly inferior to other major characters we have seen in the series and even the weaker incarnation of both Revan and Malak.

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Exar_k10
Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Malakc10
Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Nihilu12
Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Darth_10
Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Darth_12
Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Darth_11

Even the lesser sources acknowledge that Nihilus isn't on the same level as the weaker incarnations of Malak and Revan. Every single source including the base game supports my claims and I have given enough evidence from different perspectives. I don't feel like using other stronger arguments since everything is on the table already.

Now for stuff that you asked:

1 - Ancient Sith aren't below Jaden Korr. However the latter was able to defeat Marka Ragnos fair and square despite the obstacles. Can you make a case for Nihilus being above Marka Ragnos?

2 - I don't see why Suited Vader should be relevant here? We are talking about peak Vader who is the most powerful enemy ever faced by the Jedi which automatically eliminates Nihilus from the list. Not to mention there are tons of accolades and feats which can put Vader above Nihilus.

In conclusion Nihilus is a hot garbage who benefits from story devices and is beaten by pre-prime Exile and Visas who are among the lowest of TOR scaling chain. Every single source shits on Nihilus and he is designed to be below Ancient Sith, Revan and Darth Vader. I wouldn't be surprised if Ahsoka beats this useless, insignificant bug. I have seen enough of this dumpster fire for the past few days and you better get these biased claims of yours out of my sight.


Last edited by HellfireUnit on June 27th 2020, 9:11 am; edited 1 time in total
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 27th 2020, 1:09 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@Meatpants: Why does Vader beat Nihilus?

Not convinced that Nihilus scales that high, especially when Avellone confirmed Kreia was correct in saying he's only becoming as powerful as some of the ancient Sith lords. From what I've seen, Nihilus can't use planet-draining power against a single opponent either.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 27th 2020, 10:41 am
@HellfireUnit

Firstly, I would like to give you credit for putting out an argument. That is exactly what I wanted from the beginning and not for us to go into insults or calling characters ‘garbage’ or ‘shit’ and what not. It was merely to have a discussion. There is no need for such unwanted negativity or toxicity that leads to nothing. So, let’s put all that aside and have a genuine and civil discussion where we both try to actually understand each other’s perspectives.  Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 1289255181 

Now back to the topic.

"Starting with Chris' words, they are consistent. Regardless of Revan's and Vader's strength, skills or anything else, he never once claimed that Revan or Vader would lose against Nihilus and pretty much confirmed the otherwise. It is not that "Chris does not directly compare Force user's powers." In fact Chris himself states it doesn't even come down to raw power versus raw power which shows Nihilus' abilities and powers are pretty irrelevant. Hell, a direct confrontation isn't even necessary since Revan could beat him via his tactical and strategical superiority alone as he himself says "not necessarily fighting them."

He implies that even if Vader went back to past, it would not matter. Now Chris does not have an authority when it comes to determine both Revan and Vader's powers. But he designs and presents Nihilus and it is obvious Nihilus is meant to be below them and many other sources support this claim which I'll be posting

That is exactly the point. Chris mentions that he does not directly compare Force user’s powers. So, Chris claiming Revan or Vader would beat Nihilus does not mean he is saying Nihilus is weaker in Force or raw power than either but merely that they would probably find a way to win without confronting him. But this isn’t what we are talking about in versus battle forums. In versus battle forums, it’s all about if you put characters ‘A’ and ‘B’ against each other in a direct confrontation of power, who would come out on top? So, claiming Vader or Revan would beat Nihilus in a direction confrontation based on Chris’s words is invalid and that is exactly my point.

"About Ancients' accolades, you claim it is vague and unquantifiable. It is pretty much obvious in the game that Ancient Sith are above Triumvirate and Avellone once again confirms this claim via a narrative point of view and Nihilus is still meant to be sub-Ancients. I am not even going to mention Dxun stuff because it is not even necessary at this point:
 
So Nihilus is once again hundred percent confirmed to be below the Ancient Sith we encountered along the way. Pretty much everything implies Nihilus is being buried both PT and TOR scaling chains and is at the rock bottom. Now let's proceed to other sources."

I was not the one who claimed the ‘vague’ and ‘unquantifiable’ proposition (although I do find it valid). I was talking about how when Kreia directly compares the ancient Sith to Nihilus, she is comparing him based on his entity state and being more than a living being and that is given in Kreia’s own quote itself.

"The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything to it.”

-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

Looking at the context of the quote above, there are two possibilities of what Kreia claims Nihilus is rivaling the ancient Sith with. Either she is rivaling Nihilus on the potency of the technique itself and how effective he was relative to the ancient Sith in utilizing this technique. Or she is rivaling Nihilus based on him being more of an entity than a living thing anymore. 

Let’s look at the first proposition. We already know that Nihilus harnessed this technique and took it to a whole new level with him being literally able to consume entire planets with it. Looking back at the ancient Sith, none of them have been mentioned to be able to do this and utilize the technique to the extent that Nihilus did. They were only able to do such things through rituals (Nathema, thought bomb) and thus would only be able to rival Nihilus in this technique by relying on such rituals. Hence why the ‘unquantifiable’ claim. Because the only way for the ancients to match Nihilus with the technique is through other means than simply their potency of the technique. It’s even mentioned that the ancient Sith, whilst knowing Nihilus’s technique, did not utilize it as much to avoid losing their identity, just like Nihilus eventually did.

Now the other proposition of the quote is that Kreia was rivalling Nihilus to the ancient Sith based on his entity state and being more of a force than a living thing. And this is evident by how Kreia mentions the ‘rival’ part and right after mentions that Nihilus is ‘already’ more of a force than a living thing. The ‘already’ here has significance as it is alluding to what has been previously said (i.e the rivaling). So Kreia claiming Nihilus is already more of a force than a living thing means she was rivaling/comparing Nihilus to the ancient Sith based on this. And this can be attributed to the ancient Sith Vitiate (amongst also other reasons I mentioned in the blog) who became an immortal and no longer a normal being after his Nathema ritual. And this directly correlates to Nihilus since both consumed entire planets, both are no longer normal beings and both have an effect of hunger. There is no constraint that the phrase ‘ancient Sith’ has to virtually refer to literally every ancient Sith that existed.

So whichever proposition you look at, Nihilus is not stated to be less powerful than the ancient Sith. His power is not even compared to them by Kreia but rather his potency of the technique or his entity state. And this is also supported by how Kreia calls Nihilus the greatest of the Sith lords (and right after this the scene of Nihilus and Sion betraying Kreia is played) and the way she views Nihilus throughout KOTOR 2.

“There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped; the breach must sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can hope to stop. One cannot have power of that magnitude that her master possesses and still think and perceive the universe as we do, as most of us do.”

”What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good work that I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now.”

-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
 
Regarding Chris’s answer in question 1, I believe the quote given to him in the question was alluding to the following:

If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.”

And yet Chris mentions that Kreia based the above quote on the Telos holocrons she had access to. These holocrons contained information such as the ancient Sith rituals like the thought bomb (which when exploded annihilated every Force being caught within its blast) and the ritual of Nathema which essentially annihilated the planet and consumed it entirely (just like Nihilus does). These rituals were extremely potent and even Darth Bane was too afraid to even consider trying them when he first heard of them. Not to mention the holocrons would have also contained information such as the superweapons the ancient Sith had access to such as the meditation spheres and weapons capable of causing stars to go Supernova as used by Naga Sadow. Kreia is basing her quote on these events and on this information. On top of all that, Kreia’s quote above is her speaking to Meetra and would have alluded to Meetra, Kreia and her companions anyways and does not include Nihilus. Chris confirms Kreia’s quote and mentions what she based it on. He does not confirm that Nihilus is below the ancients. In fact, Chris mentioning that Kreia based this on the Telos holocrons further supports proposition 1 and 2 from earlier. The holocrons contain rituals with impacts directly similar to Nihilus. The thought bomb and Vitiate’s ritual would have easily lead Kreia to rival Nihilus and his technique to what the ancient Sith were also able to cause. I mean if you considered that the ‘rivaling’ the ancient Sith quote by Kreia was alluding to power, then the above wouldn’t even make sense. How could Nihilus rival the ancients in power but yet still be considered ‘as children playing with toys’ compared to the ancients? It does not add up.

“”For years, I have been seeing this comments claiming protaganist beats the antagonist because plot demands it. This phrase confirms the exact opposite and confirms Nihilus and Sion are actually characters who benefit from the plot armor. Avellone himself exactly says that Nihilus is a distraction for a Kreia. The sentence: "lesser aspects of his terrible hunger might be used directly against the heroes." proves that his planetary drain is barely combat applicable and it is doubtful he can utilize it to its fullest.””

Chris mentioning “lesser aspects of his terrible hunger might be used directly against the heroes.” about Nihilus’s planetary drain is directly from a game mechanics perspective, as he stated earlier, and not the lore’s perspective. And his drain is combat applicable as we have seen him utilize it on Kreia successfully and attempting to utilize it on Meetra. Not only that, but we have even seen Kreia, someone who is leagues below Nihilus in the technique, annihilate 3 Jedi masters with the same technique. And how is “Nihilus consumes a world when the plot requires it” relevant when Chris mentions that the heros will always win from a narrative perspective? So, regardless of what plots Nihilus benefits from, the heros will find a way and always win regardless which is exactly what Chris talks about when mentioning Revan vs Nihilus. 

"About Nihilus' clash between Exile and her gang, there are pretty much confirmed statements that he isn't a match for the combined might of the Marr and Surik:
So Nihilus was basically not a match for Visas Marr and Meetra Surik, who are deep beneath buried the other characters on TOR, PT and NJO.
Before you point it out yeah, everyone knows Meetra is his polar opposite thus disabling his Force Drain. However we learned that Nihilus was in fact amping himself further during the fight and lost against still he wasn't a match for Meetra and Visas:
           So we learned that Nihilus was actually amplifying himself during the entire fight after he failed to drain the Exile and despite              that, he is still not a match or whatsoever to Meetra and her companions"

Except you are taking things entirely out of context and even leaving out important events that took place during the fight. Firstly, Nihilus was already Telos starved before the fight even began.

"If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station, he will cleanse it of life. Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station, and the life of the planet, will sustain him a while longer. And if there are no Jedi below, he will have no other choice."

― Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"The Master suffers... If he can not feed, then the hunger begins to consume him. The planet Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain himself a while longer.

- Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords

"[Kreia] spoke of the Jedi academy here on Telos...and my Master was forced to come here."

- Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

 
Despite being Telos starved, Nihilus was able to entirely dominate Meetra and her strike team before the fight even began by stunning them all with a mere gesture.

"The Lord of Hunger doesn't seem to notice you until you get close, at which point he effortlessly stuns you with a wave of his hand."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Prima Guide

Meetra and her strike team were entirely defenseless at this point and Nihilus could have effortlessly ended the fight right then had he just slaughtered them with his lightsaber or whatnot. So really Nihilus could have very easily won this fight but considering his nature, he decides to instead make the mistake of draining the Exile. And this severely weakened him on top of being Telos starved from the beginning. Despite all this, Nihilus was still considered too powerful for them.

“He... is too powerful... he... I... cannot hold him for long..."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"Get away from me - I don't need your help. Just leave me here."

―Canderous Ordo (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

It was only after he was weakened again that the team was finally able to win. 
And before we move on, let us put some perspective into this fight. A severely hindered Meetra (due to the nexus of Malachor) was able to defeat a vastly amped Kreia right in the center of the Trayus academy where the nexus is most potent and concentrated. And this took place after Meetra had to fight many Sith assassins (Who would also be significantly amped) and had to defeat Sion three times. Yet, the same Meetra, except not hindered or even close to the hinder of the Malachor nexus, was entirely dominated by a Telos starved Nihilus whilst also having two rather powerful companions at her side. So a not hindered Meetra ,whilst having 2 companions, was dominated by a Telos starved Nihilus but the same Meetra, except vastly hindered, was able to defeat a vastly amped Kreia after going through Sith assassins and Sion, whom are all vastly amped. Kreia is a powerful force user in her own right as she is able to effortlessly kill over 10 Sith assassins and was even able to practically annihilate 3 Jedi masters effortlessly in one go as well. And yet whilst vastly amped, lost to a vastly hindered Meetra who was in extremely unfavorable conditions. This goes to show just how powerful a Telos starved Nihilus is (not even prime Nihilus). And yes despite Nihilus receiving a ‘flow of power’ from the Ravager, I highly doubt this ‘amp’ you are talking about is even remotely close to a dark side nexus amp such as Malachor that was even able to shape and impact the entire planet, which Meetra scales off from her fight against Kreia. Not only that, but Nihilus was already starved and further weakened again before the fight even began. So, unless you could prove that the ‘Ravager amp’ is even close to something like Malachor, it is hardly of significance considering the unfavorable conditions Nihilus is in. I could easily argue that this ‘amp’ simply reduced Nihilus’s disadvantage from his weakening and starvation and not that it gave him an advantage, especially when such an advantage is highly unlikely since he was severely weakened and fighting 3 people.

"As an extra, KOTOR Campaign Guide and COTF TOR merchandise shows Nihilus is significantly inferior to other major characters we have seen in the series and even the weaker incarnation of Revan.
Even the lesser sources acknowledge that Nihilus isn't even on the same level as the weaker incarnations of Malak and Revan. Every single source including the base game supports my claims and I have given enough evidence from different perspectives. I don't even feel like using other stronger arguments since everything is on the table already.”

Why should these ‘numbers’ you are referring to be taken seriously and as canonical statements of who is more powerful especially when they contradict the lore itself? Take a look at Kreia.

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Kreia10

Kreia is given a Force power of ‘8’ with a Dark Side of ‘20’ which is higher than Darth Revan’s ‘8’ and ‘16’ and higher than Darth Malak’s ‘8’ and ‘15’. So, according to your argument, this would mean Kreia is superior to Darth Revan, Malak and Nihilus. Yet, we know for a fact that she is canonically inferior to all 3.

Let’s go through another one. Darth Sion.

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Sion10

He is given the same Force power and Dark Side powers as Nihilus. Yet, we know for a fact that he is canonically inferior to Nihilus. So, arguing based on these numbers you are giving is not only invalid, but even contradicts the canonical lore.

1-Except the ancient Sith aren’t canonically above Nihilus in power. And also if he isn’t above the ancient Sith, as you are saying, what makes you think he is above Nihilus? So, you are picking who the ‘ancient Sith’ alludes to?

2-What do you mean ‘why Suited Vader’ is relevant? Because that’s exactly the topic at hand? And what would it matter to you which Vader we are talking about when you clearly have suited Vader above Nihilus anyways.

"In conclusion Nihilus is a hot garbage that benefits from story devices and is beaten by pre-prime Exile and Visas who are among the lowest of TOR scaling chain. Every single source shits on Nihilus and he is designed to be below Ancient Sith, Revan and Darth Vader. I wouldn't even be surprised if Ahsoka beats this useless, insignificant bug. I have seen enough of this dumpsterfire for the past few days and you better get these biased claims of yours out of my sight.”

In conclusion, you are taking many things out of context and even ignoring/leaving out important events that took place. Nihilus is not ‘designed’ to be below Revan and Vader especially when he has a feat like his TK feat on Malachor and especially when Chris explicitly mentions he does not compare Force powers directly and how the ‘hero’ would always win regardless from a narrative perspective. Ahsoka gets butchered by Nihilus. These ‘biased’ claims are supported within context, arguments, sources and are elaborated on and not left out of context or purposefully ignore events to try and push a narrative. But most importantly, they don’t use ‘numbers’ for an argument that is entirely contradicted by the canonical lore as we know it.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader

on June 29th 2020, 4:50 pm
@Meatpants wrote:
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@Meatpants: Why does Vader beat Nihilus?

Not convinced that Nihilus scales that high, especially when Avellone confirmed Kreia was correct in saying he's only becoming as powerful as some of the ancient Sith lords. From what I've seen, Nihilus can't use planet-draining power against a single opponent either.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

@Meatpants

I will respond to this if you don't mind   Darth Nihilus vs Darth Vader - Page 4 1289255181 .

Chris did not confirm or say that Nihilus is below the ancients in power (at least the ancients that we know now and not the unmade KOTOR 3 ones). Let us take a look at what Chris said:

"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."

-Chris Avellone, lead writer of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

The above, I believe (and correct me if I am wrong), was said in response to the following quote:

Kreia: “If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.”


Let us take a further look at the context surrounding the above quote and where it came from:

Kreia: This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even in his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived.

Meetra: Are you saying modern Jedi are poorly skilled with the lightsaber?

Kreia: If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters.

Meetra: What made him so good?

Kreia: This is unknown. But supposedly he created a holocron to teach his technique to other Sith. The holocron would have been laid to rest in his tomb.
 
Kreia’s ‘children’ quote was specifically about lightsaber combat and lightsaber skill relative to the modern Jedi. Let us break it down. Kreia first opens up about Tulak Hord and immediately goes into how great of a lightsaber duelist he was and praises his ‘remarkable’ skill and how he was the best lightsaber duelist even during a time where ‘true lightsaber masters lived.’ Meetra then asks Kreia whether the modern Jedi are poorly skilled with lightsabers. Kreia responds to that question, about skill with lightsabers, by stating the ‘children’ quote. Notice how Kreia says ‘playing with toys’ which would not have made much sense if we are talking about power, especially when the context leading to this was strictly about lightsaber combat and skill. The ‘playing with toys’ is directly related to lightsaber combat and how the modern Jedi carry lightsabers like ‘playing with toys’. Not only that, but notice how Kreia also mentions the ‘prowess of the old masters’ part. ‘Prowess’ is defined as skill/expertise/mastery which is directly related to technique/skill of something and not raw power, especially when the context of the quote further supports this. The ‘the old masters’ part of the quote is directly related to the ‘when many true lightsaber masters lived’ in the previous quote by Kreia. Kreia is essentially talking about how Tulak was the greatest lightsaber duelist and how he was considered remarkable even during a time when ‘true lightsaber masters’ lived and then relates it the modern Jedi by saying that they are essentially ‘playing with toys’ instead of lightsabers when compared to the skill/mastery of the old masters (i.e the true lightsaber masters period). This is even further supported by the last quote where, after Meetra asks what made Tulak so good, Kreia responds by saying that it is ‘unknown’ but that Tulak made a holocron to teach his technique of lightsaber combat to others. The fact that Kreia mentions ‘technique’ right after Meetra questions what made Tulak ‘so good’, is a further indication that this wasn’t about the power of the ancients and that it wasn’t raw power that made Tulak ‘so good’, but instead it was his lightsaber combat skills/technique relative to the modern Jedi. And this is all shown in the context of the conversation that took place.
 
Now if you are also referring to the Nihilus ‘rivalling’ the ancients quote, let us take a look at that as well and try to break it down:
 
"The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything to it.”
 
-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
 
Looking at the context of the quote above, there are two possibilities of what Kreia claims Nihilus is rivaling the ancient Sith with. Either she is rivaling Nihilus on the potency of the technique itself and how effective he was relative to the ancient Sith in utilizing this technique, as she mentions that Nihilus is ‘approaching’ the height of its power which is in direct analogy to ‘rivalling’. Or she is rivaling Nihilus based on him being more of an entity than a living thing anymore due to the ‘already’ part of the quote.
 
Let us look at the first proposition. We already know that Nihilus harnessed this technique and took it to a whole new level with him being able to consume entire planets with it. Looking back at the ancient Sith, none of them have been mentioned to be able to do this and utilize the technique to the extent that Nihilus did. They were only able to do such things through rituals (Nathema, thought bomb) and thus would only be able to rival Nihilus in this technique by relying on such rituals. The ancient Sith rituals like the thought bomb which when exploded annihilated every Force being caught within its blast and the ritual of Nathema essentially annihilated the planet and consumed it entirely (just like Nihilus does). These rituals were extremely potent and even Darth Bane was too afraid to even consider trying them when he first heard of them. The rituals had impacts directly similar to Nihilus and on a planetary scale which would have easily lead Kreia to rival Nihilus and his technique to what the ancient Sith were also able to cause. The only way for the ancients to match Nihilus with the technique is through other means than simply their potency of the technique itself. It’s even mentioned that the ancient Sith, whilst knowing Nihilus’s technique, did not utilize it as much to avoid losing their identity, just like Nihilus eventually did.
 
Now the other proposition of the quote is that Kreia was rivalling Nihilus to the ancient Sith based on his entity state and being more of a force than a living thing. And this is evident by how Kreia mentions the ‘rival’ part and right after mentions that Nihilus is ‘already’ more of a force than a living thing. The ‘already’ here has significance as it is alluding to what has been previously said (i.e the rivaling). So Kreia claiming Nihilus is already more of a force than a living thing means she was rivaling/comparing Nihilus to the ancient Sith based on this. And this can be attributed to the ancient Sith Vitiate (amongst also other reasons) who became an immortal and no longer a normal being after his Nathema ritual. And this directly correlates to Nihilus since both consumed entire planets, both are no longer normal beings and both have an effect of hunger. There is no constraint that the phrase ‘ancient Sith’ has to virtually refer to literally every ancient Sith that existed.
 
So whichever proposition you look at, Nihilus is not stated to be less powerful than the ancient Sith. His power is not even compared to them by Kreia but rather his potency of the technique or his entity state. And this is also supported by how Kreia calls Nihilus the greatest of the Sith lords (and right after this the scene of Nihilus and Sion betraying Kreia is played) and the way she views Nihilus throughout KOTOR 2.
 
“There is no future in the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped; the breach must sealed, before his power grows beyond what even we can hope to stop. One cannot have power of that magnitude that her master possesses and still think and perceive the universe as we do, as most of us do.”
 
”What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good work that I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now.”
 
-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords
As for draining, we have already seen Nihilus utilize Force drain on Kreia during the betrayal. We have already seen him try to utilize it on Meetra as well. To top it all off, we have already seen Kreia utilize the same technique to literally annihilate 3 Jedi masters in one go and she probably also used the same technique to kill around 10 Sith assassins in the Trayus academy. And Kreia was not even as potent as Nihilus in the technique.

Finally, I just want to say that the 'ancient Sith' that are mentioned most of the time in KOTOR 2 were ones that were meant for KOTOR 3 and were never even made. They are not even Exar Kun or Naga Sadow or the rest that we know. Several articles have spoken about and elaborated further on what Chris was going to do in KOTOR 3. It is of great importance to note that the 'ancient Sith' that KOTOR 2 was building up were meant to be 'gradually revealed' in KOTOR 3. Yet, many of the ancients we know now were already revealed in KOTOR 1 and 2 and even made beforehand. Article 3 is the most important if you don't feel like reading all this.
[ “These guys would just be monsters,” Avellone said. “These would have a level of power that was considerable, but at the same time you’d be able to dig more into psychologies, and their personalities, their history, and even how they dealt with the player.”

The locations in the game – planets, moons, star systems – would all bear the unique stamp of their Sith ruler, a kind of devastation and terror unique to each of the lords.

Unlike Supreme Leader Snoke, Avellone says the ancient Sith lords created for Knights of the Old Republic 3 would be gradually revealed and clarified over the course of the game, which would have given players the opportunity to learn their backstories and motivations.

Of course, we’ll never know what Obsidian had in store for us. The game was cancelled when LucasArts ran into financial problems, and while BioWare has reportedly pitched a third game in the series to EA several times, the concept was eventually mothballed. ]



[ Speaking to VG247 , Avellone said the dev team always imagined the series as a trilogy, and started "working on the third game pitch" after the release of KOTOR 2. The plan was for the player to follow the trail of Darth Revan across the galaxy and battle ancient Sith Lords, "who are far more terrifying than the Darths that show up". As well as fighting these powerful enemies, you'd be able to uncover their origin stories, he said.


"These guys would just be monsters. These would have a level of power that was considerable, but at the same time you’d be able to dig more into their psychologies, and their personalities, their history, and even how they dealt with the player, how they talk with the player, the different powers they cultivated and developed, and for some of them like—they’re the ancients, so they’re not just ruling a solar system, [but] swathes of the galaxy," he explained.

“So the places you travel to [you’d see] how they left their stamp on that world, or that solar system, or whatever collection of moons. You’d see how horrible that was. Part of that environment would tell a story about that. [That] would be a great, epic way to end the trilogy. The Old Republic are out there. We just didn’t get a chance to do it."  ]

Article 3 :


[ Obsidian had big plans for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 3, and although the game never saw the light of day, one of its writers has given us a look into what could have been for this planned next entry in the beloved KOTOR series.

As Reboot Develop, VG247 spoke to lead writer and designer for Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords and asked him if Obsidian had ever started work on a story for Knights of the Old Republic 3.
Avellone confirmed that work was underway, as the team always envisioned the KOTOR story to be a trilogy.

"When we finished the second one we were all trying to restore our lives back to sanity,” Avellone remembers. “We did start working on the third game pitch, because we always imagined the trilogy. Even when working on the second game, we [tried] to foreshadow what Darth Revan was doing in the second game, and he wasn’t always just ruthlessly and mindlessly blowing everything up. He actually had a larger plan because there was some greater manipulation and threat going on."

The third game involved you, as a player character, following where Revan went and then taking the battle to the really ancient Sith lords who are far more terrifying than the Darths that show up. These guys would just be monsters. These would have a level of power that was considerable, but at the same time you’d be able to dig more into their psychologies, and their personalities, their history, and even how they dealt with the player, how they talk with the player, the different powers they cultivated and developed, and for some of them like – they’re the ancients, so they’re not just ruling a solar system, [but] swathes of the galaxy."

Avellone also brought up how these Sith lords would be "initially mysterious, but they wouldn't be unknowable like Snoke in the newer films." A huge part of KOTOR 3 would be uncovering their origin stories and learning about what brought them to their height of power and...well...evilness. ]


The third article makes it really clear what KOTOR 2 was setting up for in KOTOR 3. Chris mentions that we were meant to 'follow where Revan went' and 'taking the battle to the really ancient Sith lords' [Which directly supports the second proposition from earlier relating to Lord Vitiate and Nihilus]. This is a direct contradiction to the claim that the 'ancients' in KOTOR 2 refer to Exar Kun and the others. Note also how Chris mentions that these ancients don't only rule 'a solar system' but 'swathes of the galaxy'. The bottom line here is that the ancients in KOTOR 2 were building up for the unmade Sith lords in KOTOR 3 and are not the ancients that we allude to these days. It is also good to note that the spirits of Freedon Nad and Naga Sadow were virtually destroyed. And Exar Kun was trapped for eternity. It would have been virtually impossible to 'take the battle to the really ancient Sith lords' in that case anyways.

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