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Geistalt
Geistalt

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 11:59 am
Saying it requires a Sheev/Maul gap in power, assuming Sheev > Krayt, implies Maul > Cade.
The God Emperor
The God Emperor

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on March 16th 2020, 12:39 pm
@Geistalt wrote:
@The God Emperor wrote:
@BoD wrote:That's her being knocked to her hands and knees. She wasn't "gravely" injured.
Why did she kneel before them?
She was on her knees because she was defeated in lightsaber combat.

She wouldn't be gravely injured unless she was impaled or had a life-threatening wound in her abdomen, chest, or vital organs (or at least a missing limb).

Like the one the Outlander inflicts that causes her to die immediately.
Even if she wasn't gravely injured, she was still weakened. Valk said "This isn't over, even now my daughter is a threat". It proves that she is weakened.
Geistalt
Geistalt

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on March 16th 2020, 12:40 pm
It could be referring to the fact that she had lost her lightsaber.
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BoD
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on March 16th 2020, 12:40 pm
He said "even now" because he thought she was defeated and done.
Geistalt
Geistalt

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on March 16th 2020, 12:41 pm
"He" being the Outlander, I take it.
The God Emperor
The God Emperor

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on March 16th 2020, 12:48 pm
@Geistalt wrote:It could be referring to the fact that she had lost her lightsaber.
Lightsaber wasn't necessary for Vaylin. She had an enormous power. She could stomp them without lightsaber. I think it isn't about lightsaber.
Praxis
Praxis
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on March 16th 2020, 12:54 pm
Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 3 L77vWlH

Vaylin admitted her wounds were bad as the fight neared its conclusion.
Geistalt
Geistalt

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on March 16th 2020, 12:55 pm
Huh. Imagine that.

Her wounds weren't life-threatening until the cutscene, though.
Dolph
Dolph
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on March 16th 2020, 12:59 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:Krayt having far greater powers than any sith in his era, including the likes of Wyyrlok, before a significant growth gives him the win, not to mention that FOTJ clearly hypes him up as a rival of Luke and a superior of Darish Vol.

Citation for this is needed.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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on March 16th 2020, 1:04 pm
EmperorCaedus wrote:Citation for this is needed.
There’s not a direct quote, but a case has been made for his superiority. Essentially, Krayt was able to inflict more damage to a superior version of her in the beyond shadows fight. Also, please stop with this whole “citation needed” thing, as it’s getting quite annoying at this point. 

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Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 3 E8ae7210
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Quorian Debatist
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on March 27th 2020, 11:51 am
@BoD wrote:@ILS
 [size=34]I've just been made aware of the rest of the fight and I now agree that Krayt basically stomped Cade[/size]

Also, technically I'm on a train so I can't properly respond.
[size=35].[/size]

I see you've been motivated by this journey as well:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/rail-journeys/Rail-travel-Around-the-world-in-80-trains/

Good time to ride the rails with all the Covid-19 stuff going on. More power to ya.
NotAA3
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on March 27th 2020, 11:53 am
Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 3 1076326320
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BoD
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on March 27th 2020, 12:04 pm
@Quorian Debatist wrote:
@BoD wrote:@ILS
 [size=34]I've just been made aware of the rest of the fight and I now agree that Krayt basically stomped Cade[/size]

Also, technically I'm on a train so I can't properly respond.
[size=35].[/size]

I see you've been motivated by this journey as well:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/rail-journeys/Rail-travel-Around-the-world-in-80-trains/

Good time to ride the rails with all the Covid-19 stuff going on. More power to ya.

🇪🇭

It's called coming home from uni. It's what people with loved ones tend to do around Easter break, or when their uni is closed (as mine was). Kind of a weird thing to take from that but it is you, so...cool?

Also, not sure why you singled out a post from nearly 2 weeks ago to reply to.  Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 3 39523600
The lord of hunger
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Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 27th 2020, 12:09 pm
the reborn dragon wins yes
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Quorian Debatist
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on March 27th 2020, 12:11 pm
Oh my mistake. Forgive my daftness but I thought you were inspired by seeing the land through locomotive travel. I've been thinking of it myself and thought you were another thrill seeker like myself.

I thought that you continuing not to respond meant you were still on the train LMAO! Boy did I misread this situation and get egg on MY face! Sorry for the misunderstanding lol
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on March 27th 2020, 12:24 pm
Oh my mistake. Forgive my daftness but I thought you were inspired by seeing the land through locomotive travel. I've been thinking of it myself and thought you were another thrill seeker like myself.

I thought that you continuing not to respond meant you were still on the train LMAO! Boy did I misread this situation and get egg on MY face! Sorry for the misunderstanding lol

Oh no, I totally understand, friend. I'm just not as much of an adventurer as you. But don't worry; I did respond earlier on:


This is your opportunity to open a meaningful discourse on the topic. Very interested to see what you both come up with.


-


I've just been made aware of the rest of the fight and I now agree that Krayt basically stomped Cade

Don't worry about it, though. It's easy to miss highlighted text. I do it all the time. When you're gallivanting all over the world on trains, I can hardly expect you to notice such trivial details.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
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on April 19th 2020, 4:25 pm
@NotAA3:

Krayt doesn't need to be able to breach Cade's Force Barrier to hit him with TK, he can circumvent Cade's barrier via Mastery - being quick and skilled enough to create openings and hit Cade or capitalise on natural openings in Cade's defences. Funnily enough, Sheev does this against Maul

The distinction being that Sheev engineered a lapse in the midst of the duel... something that Krayt couldn't do because he wasn't in a duel. Due to the range his TK attacks were fairly blatant and not at all tricky, hence Cade's ability to negate them, which, as explained prior, does not require anything resembling closeness. None of this proves there isn't a stomp gap between the two.

and more as a more relevant example regarding the closeness between Cade and Krayt, we've seen relative equals be able to do this, as Maul is fast and skilled enough to choke Kenobi before the latter can close the distance in Sith Hunters.

Kenobi is only close to Maul when he's fighting at his best. Given Kenobi was mentally unbalanced here (A state which has allowed Maul to kick his ass before) it's not an example that helps substantiate your point.

If there was a stomp gap between Cade and Krayt - like you suggest - we'd expect Krayt to be abusing his Telekinesis and getting an advantage, not woefully failing at stopping Cade from closing the distance while he casually brags about his growth and mocks Krayt.

Uh huh...

It is cherry-picking. You stated: "The only thing we see on panel is Cade getting grounded in 2 seconds by Krayt awkwardly placing his hand on him mid duel..." You acted like the scan you were referencing was the whole duel and ignored the rest of the fight. Whether or not that section of the fight is indicative of a stomp gap or not is irrelevant - you still pretended like it didn't exist, and thus I can wholeheartedly say you are cherry-picking.

The other section of the duel doesn't even involve saber exchanges (Which is obviously what I was referencing).

I think it's very presumptuous of you to assume the comic creators wanted a stomp when Talon thinks Cade's growth potentially makes him a threat to Krayt - a fact re-emphasised in the opening of the 6th issue - and the fight has Cade negating Krayt's TK while bragging about his growth.

Both are addressed in this post, one above, one below. They're far to vague to indicate closeness. The only other piece of evidence on where the two stand is far more concrete, and actually paints a decisive gap.

Talon wouldn't see fit to warn Krayt about a totally irrelevant variable that doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to his plans. If she really thought Cade was no threat, she wouldn't have wanted to warn Krayt with such urgency - she says she "must" warn Krayt, she clearly isn't indifferent.

Obviously it makes a difference, if Krayt underestimates Cade's growth it might cost him, that doesn't mean that he's incapable of stomping Cade in a conventional brawl... which we've seen he can.

I don't think I said otherwise. My point was that while Krayt may want not to kill Cade, he's going to seize on anything short of that. The fact that he'd prefer DT is utterly irrelevant and doesn't really address the point.

Why would he seize on anything less? If he guts him with a saber Cade's going to die instantly... it's that simple. If he hits him with DT he can actually push him to the brink, like he wanted to.


Last edited by ScionOfSkywalker77 on April 19th 2020, 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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on April 19th 2020, 5:37 pm
Vaylin
Dolph
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on April 19th 2020, 5:50 pm
The Dark Man, Emperor Krayt takes this
NotAA3
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on April 19th 2020, 10:29 pm
@ScionOfSkywalker77

The distinction being that Sheev engineered a lapse in the midst of the duel... something that Krayt couldn't do because he wasn't in a duel.

There isn't a distinction that is relevant to the initial point:

The ability to dismiss an opponent via TK requires a gap bigger than Sheev/Maul (A fight that ended in a few moves). All you've demonstrated here is that Krayt can't one shot... a premise I never disagreed with.

You claimed that a gap bigger than the disparity between Sheev/Maul is "required" for Krayt to dismiss Cade. My response addresses this claim by pointing out that Krayt doesn't necessarily need to rip through Cade's barrier in order to defeat him with Telekinesis - he can use his Mastery to circumvent Cade's defences by forcing Cade into a vulnerable position wherein he won't have to bypass Cade's barrier, and then capitalise on it - ergo the gap doesn't need to be larger than Maul/Sheev for Krayt to TK him. This is readily apparent given that we have seen Sheev attack Maul when he's uniquely vulnerable/unable to defend himself, and the result is pretty much an auto one-shot. The point isn't that the examples are comparable - and that the gap between Krayt and Cade must be larger than Sheev/Maul - which is what you seem to be addressing, the point is that Sheev can TK Maul when he's vulnerable and Krayt can theoretically set up a scenario like that between himself and Cade, even at a distance with only Force Abilities.

What have you done to address the claim in red? Nothing, so I guess it's concession accepted then.

Due to the range his TK attacks were fairly blatant and not at all tricky, hence Cade's ability to negate them, which, as explained prior, does not require anything resembling closeness. None of this proves there isn't a stomp gap between the two.

The bolded has been explained above. As for the underlined, it is pretty much the crux of your entire argument, yet you've failed to substantiate it in any way. We've seen Maul catch Kenobi out from a distance with Telekinesis (among other examples), but for some reason, you're acting like it's easy for Cade to defend against Krayt without any elaboration.

Kenobi is only close to Maul when he's fighting at his best. Given Kenobi was mentally unbalanced here (A state which has allowed Maul to kick his ass before) it's not an example that helps substantiate your point.

Citation needed for the underlined. To clarify, Kenobi is a match for Maul at this point in time - as seen during their fight in TCW S4 (obviously ignoring the section where Maul taunts Kenobi, as Maul didn't successfully off-balance Kenobi in Sith Hunters as far as I'm aware) - yet Maul is still skilled enough with Telekinesis to catch Kenobi in a Force Choke when the latter tried to close the distance between them. In total contrast, Krayt is simply incapable of utilising Telekinesis effectively against Cade, despite the fact that there was greater distance between them than Maul and Kenobi.

However, if the example referenced doesn't work for you, we've seen Vitiate is capable of keeping Revan at a distance with his TK, despite the fact that Revan showed he could hold his own combatively (he renders Vitiate limp with one of his attacks, etc).

Uh huh...

What I said is absolutely correct, we've repeatedly seen combatants manage to keep their near equals at range and subdue them with Force Powers, but Krayt was incapable of doing anything of that sort to Cade.

Both are addressed in this post, one above, one below. They're far to vague to indicate closeness.

How is the fact that Cade:

-Negates Krayt's TK
-Closes the distance between himself and Krayt
-Duels Krayt for an extended period of time

..."too vague to indicate closeness"? There is no decisive gap shown in Force Power with any of that, in fact, the opposite is displayed.

The only other piece of evidence on where the two stand is far more concrete, and actually paints a decisive gap.

How so? You've yet to explain why Krayt defeating Cade via taking advantage of his exposed position creates a decisive gap between the two, let alone a stomp one.

Obviously it makes a difference, if Krayt underestimates Cade's growth it might cost him, that doesn't mean that he's incapable of stomping Cade in a conventional brawl... which we've seen he can.

Wait... Krayt's going to underestimate Cade's growth, and then lose because of it when he can in actuality stomp him? Explain to me how that would remotely happen in a hypothetical scenario.

I think you're being majorly dishonest in your interpretation here, tbh. You're proposing that Cade's growth was majorly emphasised twice before his fight with Krayt with the emphasis being on how he could be a threat to Krayt now, but what it really means is that Cade could follow through on Krayt potentially being a retard/majorly underestimating him and that Krayt can in actuality just kick his shit in. Big Cade growth guys, but the problem is really that Krayt is retarded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We both know the most fundamentally honest interpretation is that Cade has grown enough to be a threat to Krayt, and that's reflected in Cade negating his Force Abilities during their fight.

Why would he seize on anything less? If he guts him with a saber Cade's going to die instantly... it's that simple. If he hits him with DT he can actually push him to the brink, like he wanted to.

What? My point isn't that Krayt's going to stab Cade and kill him instantly, my point is that anything that doesn't immediately kill Cade is totally fair game for Krayt. I said this last post, and your rebuttal doesn't address it at all:

I wrote:I don't think I said otherwise. My point was that while Krayt may want not to kill Cade, he's going to seize on anything short of that. The fact that he'd prefer DT is utterly irrelevant and doesn't really address the point.
The Rich Man
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on August 24th 2020, 5:51 am
Krayt wins
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