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NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:32 am
@IG

I said it wasn't a stomp lol.

And I agree.

Immense without being a stomp gap exists. Perhaps the term reasonably large superiority works better?

It doesn't.

I mean their fight isn't so close that it's Anakin v Obi-Wan, but it's no Dooku v Obi-Wan either.

Prove it.


Last edited by NotAA3 on March 16th 2020, 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:32 am
but it's no Dooku v Obi-Wan either.

*Angry noises*
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:33 am
@NotAA3:

>tHe OnLy ThInG wE sEe On PaNeL
>On the previous page we see Cade totally negate Krayt's TK, and close the distance between them, as he brags about his growth and mocks Krayt.

Which doesn't indicate parity. The ability to dismiss an opponent via TK requires a gap bigger than Sheev/Maul (A fight that ended in a few moves). All you've demonstrated here is that Krayt can't one shot... a premise I never disagreed with.

Taking the end of the fight wherein Krayt takes advantage of Cade's exposed position and finishes the fight, and ignoring the events that transpired prior is disingenuous, to say the least.

It's not selectively cherry picking the end of the fight, it's taking the only actual CQC exchange shown on panel, which happens to indicate a decisive gap. If anything noteworthy happened that demonstrated parity it would have been shown. Except it wasn't. Because the comic creators wanted a stomp, not a close fight.

Talon doesn't think Krayt can stomp Cade, so I don't see why you should either.

You're confusing Talon warning Krayt of a new variable not present prior with her not thinking Krayt can stomp Cade. The two aren't the same.

Krayt wanted Cade to be pushed to the brink and conquer death. While he's not aiming for a decapitation, he'll definitely take up anything less than that.

Pretty sure the slow death of DT is more effective for "pushing one to the brink" than gutting them with a saber outright, but maybe that's just me. That also fits with Krayt's constant appeal for Cade to surrender, rather than draw out the duel.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:33 am
BoD wrote:
but it's no Dooku v Obi-Wan either.

*Angry noises*
Wow, imagine thinking augmenting yourself so much that someone cannot react to your telekinesis is parity. Also imagine thinking stonewalling a surprised opponent is parity.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:34 am
@IG wrote:
BoD wrote:
but it's no Dooku v Obi-Wan either.

*Angry noises*
Wow, imagine thinking augmenting yourself so much that someone cannot react to your telekinesis is parity. Also imagine thinking stonewalling a surprised opponent is parity.
It was a joke, chill.
Geistalt
Geistalt

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:34 am
@God Emperor

Vaylin wasn't gravely injured when she ragdolled Arcann and Senya.

She wasn't gravely injured until the very end, when the HoT stabbed her in the abdomen.


Last edited by Geistalt on March 16th 2020, 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:35 am
@BoD I was kidding too lol.
The God Emperor
The God Emperor

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:35 am
@IG wrote:Krayt's scaling from Kenobi + Mega growth over Legacy + Immense Superiority over Cade (I dunno if that's a stomp or not) are things I buy as better than Vaylin at this point, though I have to replay KOTET to get a better feel for Vaylin.

So tentatively Krayt.
You forget Vaylin's superiority to both Arcann and Senya. She was able to stomp them when she was gravely injured.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:35 am
@IG wrote:@BoD I was kidding too lol.
Hurting my boy Kenobi's reputation is not something you can do jokingly, my boy!
The God Emperor
The God Emperor

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:37 am
@Geistalt wrote:Vaylin wasn't gravely injured when she ragdolled Arcann and Senya.

She wasn't gravely injured until the very end, when the HoT stabbed her in the abdomen.
She was. They defeated her once time. She was overwhelmed but still powerful enough to stomp both Senya and Arcann.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:39 am
@The God Emperor wrote:
@Geistalt wrote:Vaylin wasn't gravely injured when she ragdolled Arcann and Senya.

She wasn't gravely injured until the very end, when the HoT stabbed her in the abdomen.
She was. They defeated her once time. She was overwhelmed but still powerful enough to stomp both Senya and Arcann.
They knocked her to her hands and knees temporarily. Gravely injured would have been her lying on the ground struggling to get up.
Geistalt
Geistalt

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:39 am
@The God Emperor

May I see a video showing this?
The God Emperor
The God Emperor

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:42 am
BoD wrote:@The God Emperor First fight was definitely not a stomp. Neither was the second. He used dark essence or whatever it's called to incapacitate Cade. Superior, yes. Stomp level superior, no. 

Also, Vaylin is an Arcann level duelist at her peak. Krayt isn't massively more skilled to the point that he can stomp her.
Even if it isn't a stomp, Krayt is still far superior to him.
The God Emperor
The God Emperor

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:44 am
@Geistalt wrote:@The God Emperor

May I see a video showing this?
https://youtu.be/88lel-BTqMA
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:45 am
That's her being knocked to her hands and knees. She wasn't "gravely" injured.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:46 am
@NotAA3 If you still maintain Cade contended with Krayt, how about responding to ILS on the topic in the other thread? It seems what he said was true - you come into a thread, make snide comments, then flee when challenged, and show up a while later in another thread to repeat the process. This type of behavior is going deter anyone from wanting to debate you if you're neither going to concede or even entertain your opponent's arguments.

_________________
Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Sheev_sig_3
The God Emperor
The God Emperor

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:50 am
BoD wrote:That's her being knocked to her hands and knees. She wasn't "gravely" injured.
Why did she kneel before them?
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 10:56 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Wtf guys cade vs krayt wasnt a stomp? Krayt only won via dark essence imo. We dont even kno if there was a 20 minute fight between the last two panels but imo there was

Big brain shit here 🇪🇭
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 11:13 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Darth Space Muslim makes Hijabi Vaylin into one of his wives.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 11:27 am
@Azronger:

If you still maintain Cade contended with Krayt, how about responding to ILS on the topic in the other thread? It seems what he said was true - you come into a thread, make snide comments, then flee when challenged, and show up a while later in another thread to repeat the process. This type of behavior is going deter anyone from wanting to debate you if you're neither going to concede or even entertain your opponent's arguments.

🇪🇭

The fact that I haven't responded yet doesn't make his assumption about me true. I've been working on a response - it's just been coming slowly due to assignments (which are thankfully finished now), and other posts I need to work on (i.e. my finisher to MP which is part of an SS, and thus takes priority).
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 11:28 am
Worth noting I am only going off the scans posted for the second Krayt vs Cade fight, where it looks like Krayt basically uses hax to win. I could and probably am completely wrong, so please don't take my words on that fight as being final.

I've just been made aware of the rest of the fight and I now agree that Krayt basically stomped Cade.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 11:39 am
Okay. Let's do a quick experiment. I know you guys have important assignments and seminars which you pretend are preventing you from backing up your opinions, but seeing as you appear to have enough leisure time to spend like 20-30 minutes posting in and checking back on this thread, lets assume (because I know you are both Brits) that in the space of the next 9 hours you have an additional 20-30 minutes at your disposal to read the "Superiority to Cade" section of the below thread, which only really needs 10, but lets be generous and call it 30.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2805-darth-wyyrlok-iii-respect-thread#52989 

Read it? Very good. That was the most excessively well sourced and verbose explanation of Krayt vs Cade in human existence. Not a brag, this is simply a niche I've cornered. There is no better rock upon which you could break your arguments off of.

This is your opportunity to open a meaningful discourse on the topic. Very interested to see what you both come up with.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 11:41 am
@ILS
 [size=34]I've just been made aware of the rest of the fight and I now agree that Krayt basically stomped Cade[/size]

Also, technically I'm on a train so I can't properly respond.
[size=35].[/size]
Geistalt
Geistalt

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 11:48 am
@The God Emperor wrote:
BoD wrote:That's her being knocked to her hands and knees. She wasn't "gravely" injured.
Why did she kneel before them?
She was on her knees because she was defeated in lightsaber combat.

She wouldn't be gravely injured unless she was impaled or had a life-threatening wound in her abdomen, chest, or vital organs (or at least a missing limb).

Like the one the Outlander inflicts that causes her to die immediately.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained)

on March 16th 2020, 11:58 am
@ScionOfSkywalker77

Which doesn't indicate parity. The ability to dismiss an opponent via TK requires a gap bigger than Sheev/Maul (A fight that ended in a few moves). All you've demonstrated here is that Krayt can't one shot... a premise I never disagreed with.

This isn't remotely true. The ability to dismiss someone with TK via breaching their direct defences and piercing their Force Barrier requires a Sheev/Maul gap in power. There's a fundamental difference. Krayt doesn't need to be able to breach Cade's Force Barrier to hit him with TK, he can circumvent Cade's barrier via Mastery - being quick and skilled enough to create openings and hit Cade or capitalise on natural openings in Cade's defences. Funnily enough, Sheev does this against Maul (https://youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg?t=164 ), and more as a more relevant example regarding the closeness between Cade and Krayt, we've seen relative equals be able to do this, as Maul is fast and skilled enough to choke Kenobi before the latter can close the distance in Sith Hunters. If there was a stomp gap between Cade and Krayt - like you suggest - we'd expect Krayt to be abusing his Telekinesis and getting an advantage, not woefully failing at stopping Cade from closing the distance while he casually brags about his growth and mocks Krayt.

It's not selectively cherry picking the end of the fight, it's taking the only actual CQC exchange shown on panel, which happens to indicate a decisive gap.

It is cherry-picking. You stated: "The only thing we see on panel is Cade getting grounded in 2 seconds by Krayt awkwardly placing his hand on him mid duel..." You acted like the scan you were referencing was the whole duel and ignored the rest of the fight. Whether or not that section of the fight is indicative of a stomp gap or not is irrelevant - you still pretended like it didn't exist, and thus I can wholeheartedly say you are cherry-picking.

If anything noteworthy happened that demonstrated parity it would have been shown. Except it wasn't.

Where did I remotely argue for parity in this discussion?

Because the comic creators wanted a stomp, not a close fight.

I think it's very presumptuous of you to assume the comic creators wanted a stomp when Talon thinks Cade's growth potentially makes him a threat to Krayt - a fact re-emphasised in the opening of the 6th issue - and the fight has Cade negating Krayt's TK while bragging about his growth.

You're confusing Talon warning Krayt of a new variable not present prior with her not thinking Krayt can stomp Cade. The two aren't the same.

Darth Krayt (Reborn) Vs. Vaylin (Unchained) - Page 2 39523600 Talon wouldn't see fit to warn Krayt about a totally irrelevant variable that doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to his plans. If she really thought Cade was no threat, she wouldn't have wanted to warn Krayt with such urgency - she says she "must" warn Krayt, she clearly isn't indifferent.

Pretty sure the slow death of DT is more effective for "pushing one to the brink" than gutting them with a saber outright, but maybe that's just me. That also fits with Krayt's constant appeal for Cade to surrender, rather than draw out the duel.

I don't think I said otherwise. My point was that while Krayt may want not to kill Cade, he's going to seize on anything short of that. The fact that he'd prefer DT is utterly irrelevant and doesn't really address the point.


Last edited by NotAA3 on March 16th 2020, 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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