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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 10th 2020, 9:40 pm
I wouldn't put Malgus ~ or particularly close to the Outlander, but he's clearly outside of their ragdoll range and most likely outside of their stomp/handily defeat range, too. Whether that's due to Malgus' raw skill in lightsaber combat or his raw power, I'm not sure. Unlike Vaylin, Valkorion or even Arcann to an extent, the Outlander tends to keep his fights limited to sabers whenever he can.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 10th 2020, 11:49 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Praxis Well, it wasn't that I'm taking Malgus's comments at face value, it's more so the fact that he was capable of and comfortable saying those things in the heat of combat. Consider something like Sidious vs. Maul at the very end - Malgus probably would not have been talking if the duel was that short and if he was forced to exert himself 110% to barely and only briefly keep up. It's not what he says; it's the fact that he says those things confidently to begin with that to me indicates he didn't get slaughtered and was putting up a solid fight for a decent duration of time. I don't think he's the Outlander's equal and he doesn't have to be "close" in the sense of Kenobi vs. Mustafar Vader or Yoda vs. Sidious, but he can keep up even when the Outlander is assisted by two other people. Like, he should at least be capable of contending to the same extent as the Outlander did against Arcann in their first fight, although probably even better, in my opinion (not getting ragdolled all the time). That should put him above vanilla Act III Hero at least. His initial comment that he would kill the trio easily could be seen as an indication of that, since he doesn't know of the power increase the Outlander has underwent since their last fight in the False Emperor flashpoint.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 11th 2020, 12:16 am
Another thing I'd like to note: Malgus has basically been rebuilt with cybernetics at this point, making him much tougher and harder to put down. That might partially account for why he lasted a decent amount of time, along with his power growth and willpower (he was giving that fight everything he had because he was fighting the man he arguably hates more than anyone else still alive at this point).
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Three
Level Three

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 11th 2020, 11:40 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Heathen wrote:
Latham2000 wrote:S4 Savage is far below S4 Maul by the admission of Dave Filoni, Star Wars Insider 134 and Ultimate Star Wars, but this was before he received any Banite Sith training by Maul off screen, Maul noticed that Savage wasn't properly trained by Dooku, so it's logical that Savage improved even further after S4, but it's unlikely that he improved massively given the lack of emphasis on Savage's improvement, and what kind of cements this is that StarWars.com says that Savage's inexperience proved costly against Kenobi on Florrum in S5. But Savage is nonetheless a beast, his inferiority to Maul doesn't take away anything from him because Maul is just that good.
@Latham2000
Filoni said what re: S4 Savage <<<< S4 Maul?


We don't even see Savage in S4 until he finds Maul, and then they disappear until S5.  The Sith Hunters takes place between four and five.  I'm not arguing with you.  I'd just like to know what was said considering there are three published quotes I can think of offhand which place Savage > Maul in S4.

We did see Savage and Maul right at the end of S4 in the episodes Brothers and Revenge in case you forgot. Here's what Filoni said:

Dave Filoni: And then Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder. He's all... He's all aggression and power. He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how. Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.

Source ― Weekly ForceCast: May 4, 2012

This podcast was posted online in 4th May 2012, and reading between the lines gives a clear picture of S4 Maul's superiority over S4 Savage because Filoni distinguishing the threat levels that Maul and Savage present. Savage is a "very poorly trained" Force user who relies primarily on ferocity and brute strength, having little discipline and little knowledge like the typical mindless Hulk (Professor Hulk wasn't a thing in 2012). Maul in contrast, is a "super dangerous threat" because he's been "well trained" by Sidious for many years "in all types of Sith ways" and because of this, he is "kind of in the Vader-realm" . To put this in simpler terms, Maul has all the chops to be in Vader-realm, Savage doesn't. 

Star Wars Insider 134 reinforces this:

"Viewers of Star Wars: The Clone Wars know that Maul's brother Savage Opress is no slouch when it comes to fighting. But compared to Maul, even a killer like Savage takes a back seat. "Savage is fearsome," Taylor points out. "He would tear the arms off a wookiee with his teeth. But Maul is calculating, and his ability makes him a far more formidable foe." Add the fact that the two warriors share a brotherly bond, and you have a one-two punch unrivalled by another other team in the Star Wars galaxy.

Taylor finds the familial link an interesting avenue for character exploration. "Savage went looking for his brother and, to me, this is because he needed someone," he says. "There's a lot more emotional instability and rage in him. With Maul, you don't feel like he needs anyone. Maul is the only child who got all the cool presents. Savage just wants to share some of them." ― Star Wars Insider 134

Enlarge this imageClick to see fullsize
★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Swi-134-082

S4 Maul is far above S4 Savage according to this source, which by the way was published in June 2012, between the airings of S4 and S5, so it's evidently speaking about what we know of Maul and Savage as of its release date. When compared to Maul as a fighter, Savage is explicitly stated to "take a backseat" and Maul is described as "a far more formidable foe because of his ability," which is self explanatory. 

There's also two other sources cementing this view, such as the 2015 edition of Ultimate Star Wars, saying that Savage regrets never being Maul's equal:

"Noting the growing power of the brothers, Sidious confronts Savage Opress and Maul on Mandalore. As he dies, Opress expresses regret that he was never Maul's equal." ― Ultimate Star Wars: Characters, Creatures, Locations, Technology, Vehicles (2015).

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 2020-03-11

The 2019 edition of Ultimate Star Wars, says the exact same words:
"Noting the growing power of the brothers, Sidious confronts Savage Opress and Maul on Mandalore. As he dies, Opress expresses regret that he was never Maul's equal." ― Ultimate Star Wars New Edition: The Definitive Guide to the Star Wars Universe (2019).
★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 2
If you look carefully, you'll notice that the scans of the 2015 and 2019 editions have subtle differences. Both quotes were worded exactly the same, but they are still two different publications. Savage regrets that he was never being Maul's equal, obviously meaning that he was always inferior to Maul because Savage's dying words were "Brother, I am an unworthy apprentice. I'm not like you, I never was" i.e. Savage has been Maul's inferior the moment Maul's powers and memories were restored by Mother Talzin on Dathomir. 

I'd like to see you citing the three published quotes in their exact wording, the only one that I am aware of that contradicts the pro-Maul quotes is the TCW Magazine saying that Savage is more powerful and that a fight between them is a close call. That's not only a far cry from the quotes that I've cited, but it's also inconsistent, and we can't say that one quote cancels out four other quotes, especially when one of them came out of the mouth of Filoni, the supervising director of show, who has huge amounts of creative control over the show, ergo the pro-Maul quotes are more reliable. Another reason why the quotes supporting S4 Maul's superiority over S4 Savage are more reliable is because they're consistent with the subtext of TCW. One of the reasons why Savage went through so much time and effort searching for Maul and bring him out of his exile in Lotho Minor was because Savage needed Maul to continue his Dark Side training:

Savage Opress: I was betrayed by Ventress. The Jedi are after me! I'm not strong enough to defeat them all!

Mother Talzin: Calm yourself. You will be.

Savage Opress: I... don't understand. Who will teach me?

Mother Talzin: You have a brother.

Savage Opress: A brother? But all of my kin were killed!

Mother Talzin: Not all of them. He lives in the Outer Rim, in exile. You will find him. He will teach you everything you need to learn to become even more powerful.

Savage Opress: My brother. How? How will I find him?

Mother Talzin: This talisman has been imbued with the power of our clan. It will be your compass. You have an important destiny to fulfill, Savage Opress. You... and your brother. Go. You will know where to find him.

Savage Opress: I will return, Mother.

Source
The Clone Wars Season 3, Episode 14, Witches of the Mist.

"For over a decade, the Jedi Order believes Darth Maul is dead. But during the Clone Wars, after Asajj Ventress betrays Savage Opress, Mother Talzin informs Savage that he has an exiled brother in the Outer Rim who can teach him to become more powerful. Opress goes to the planet Lotho Minor, where he finds Maul in a wretched state, his damaged torso grafted to spider-like droid legs. Opress helps Maul recover, and together they seek revenge against those who turned them into monsters."  Ultimate Star Wars New Edition: The Definitive Guide to the Star Wars Universe.

Savage went through all that hassle to bring Maul back, partly due to the fact that he needs a teacher to continue his Sith training. Dooku can't do that because he became Savage's enemy, but Maul was sufficient enough to take Dooku's place as Savage's teacher. If Savage was more powerful than Maul, then what on earth is he going to learn from a Dark Sider who's less powerful than himself, when Dark Siders, especially Sith, are about power, control and dominance? The concept of Savage being more powerful than Maul completely defeats the purpose of why he needs him as a teacher, the concept of Maul being far superior to Savage doesn't defeat the purpose of why he needs him as a teacher, but actually explains why he needs him as a teacher.
Heathen
Heathen

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 12th 2020, 3:08 am
@Latham2000


I said:
We don't even see Savage in S4 until he finds Maul, and then they disappear until S5.  The Sith Hunters takes place between four and five.  I'm not arguing with you.  I'd just like to know what was said considering there are three published quotes I can think of offhand which place Savage > Maul in S4.

You said:

Latham2000 wrote:We did see Savage and Maul right at the end of S4 in the episodes Brothers and Revenge in case you forgot.

LMAO I didn't forget, but I am so thankful you made sure I didn't! =D I was saying that we did not see Savage in season four until he finds Maul.  There is no indication of who is more powerful than whom until the first episode of season five.  I didn't understand why Filoni would say that Maul was super dominant compared to Savage specifically during season four.  Afterward, of course.

 
Latham2000 wrote:Here's what Filoni said:

Dave Filoni: And then Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder. He's all... He's all aggression and power. He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how. Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.

Source [size=16]― Weekly ForceCast: May 4, 2012[/size]

This podcast was posted online in 4th May 2012, and reading between the lines gives a clear picture of S4 Maul's superiority over S4 Savage because Filoni distinguishing the threat levels that Maul and Savage present. Savage is a "very poorly trained" Force user who relies primarily on ferocity and brute strength, having little discipline and little knowledge like the typical mindless Hulk (Professor Hulk wasn't a thing in 2012). Maul in contrast, is a "super dangerous threat" because he's been "well trained" by Sidious for many years "in all types of Sith ways" and because of this, he is "kind of in the Vader-realm" . To put this in simpler terms, Maul has all the chops to be in Vader-realm, Savage doesn't. 



Actually, what Filoni said possibly places an *unbroken* Maul > Vader.  This could be backed up by a Lucas quote along with two quotes in TCW Magazine if Filoni had explicitly said that, but he didn't.  Notice I use words such as "possibly", "if", and "explicitly," which are key terms and points to consider when publicly arguing head canon with another person.  You should not "read between lines" for a "clear picture" and then present this is clear evidence - should be more than personal theory.  

"BUT he's broken[THEREFORE] he's kind of in the Vader-realm..." is what Filoni is saying.  He is also saying Maul is not completely connected to what he is familiar with.  It's like the wording used to describe one reason why Kenobi defeated an undefeatable Vader on Mustafar:  "Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable."  Maul is not his complete self.  This is nothing that disparages Maul; It does not, however, indicate what you think it does.  Filoni didn't regard Vader as this magnificent dark beast as he is now in canon. Saying Maul is in the Vader realm is bringing Maul down from a higher roost.  There are plenty of quotes to support this, but I'll add only this one of Lucas':  


George Lucas, \"George Lucas and the Cult of Darth Vader" The Rolling Stone, 2005 wrote:He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become.
^^^"Darth Vader was like Darth Maul".


You say Filoni distinguished between threat levels, which I did not read. Is it in another quote, or was your quote out of context?  What I understand from Filoni is that he is distinguishing between the types of Force wielders Maul and Savage are.  Savage is a brute powerhouse without much education and experience.  Maul has a lot of education and experience.  Filoni likened Savage to the Hulk, who can contend with Thor, a god, and Superman, virtually a god.  Mindless brute versus highly intelligent, nigh indestructible beings.  All are about equal in producing end results.  End results being equal, I'm not seeing a distinction in levels.  We also know from the show that the Jedi considered Savage a very real threat.  In season three, Dooku said Savage was a monster and getting stronger daily. On more than one occasion, Savage, alone, fought off, ragdolled, threw across a room, and evaded the Jedi dynamic duo.  


Star Wars dot com: Savage Opress Biography Gallery wrote:Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi arrived on Toydaria, but could not stop Opress.


Star Wars dot com: Witches of the Mist Episode Gallery wrote:Savage is engaged in a heated lightsaber battle with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the frigate hangar.


^^^Savage survived and escaped.

Savage's chops may not be expertly-skilled, but he gets the job done even when fighting one of the most skilled expert-lightsaber duelists:

AEYNtK wrote:[ltr]True or False?- ''Dooku cannot be bested in a lightsaber duel.''
False: ''Opress disarms him but is bested by Force lightning.''[/ltr]

Furthermore, he is not as unskilled as he's been made out to be:


Star Wars Fact File 31 (2014) wrote:The count trained Opress in lightsaber combat, and despite Savage's initial lack of skill in the discipline, helped him to harness his rage until he became a master with the weapon.

^^^Those quotes are pre-Maul, season 3. Savage grew more powerful: 

The Clone Wars Episode Guide, 2013
★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Main-qimg-6c48f21dc6774ea9eb22d295c2173e9b

Based solely on what I'm reading, I do not get the same end result you do, but perhaps Filoni had more to say?  Otherwise, Filoni is just saying that Maul isn't his old self, but Maul is still very deadly.  Savage is also a threat, albeit a brutish one.  Like I said, there are sources which place Savage above Maul as a Force wielder, but I had said three.  I know of three, but at this very moment, I can only think of one:


The Clone Wars Magazine:

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Tcw_ma10





Latham2000 wrote:Star Wars Insider 134 reinforces this:

[size=16]"Viewers of Star Wars: The Clone Wars know that Maul's brother Savage Opress is no slouch when it comes to fighting. But compared to Maul, even a killer like Savage takes a back seat. "Savage is fearsome," Taylor points out. "He would tear the arms off a wookiee with his teeth. But Maul is calculating, and his ability makes him a far more formidable foe." Add the fact that the two warriors share a brotherly bond, and you have a one-two punch unrivalled by another other team in the Star Wars galaxy.

Taylor finds the familial link an interesting avenue for character exploration. "Savage went looking for his brother and, to me, this is because he needed someone," he says. "There's a lot more emotional instability and rage in him. With Maul, you don't feel like he needs anyone. Maul is the only child who got all the cool presents. Savage just wants to share some of them." ― Star Wars Insider 134
[/size]



The illustration used for the SWI 134 quote is from Death Sentence, which takes place between seasons four and five.  Also, the publication date is after season four finished-the entire season and not just the Savage and Maul episodes.  However, I had to think about "...a far more formidable foe."  I thought at first it was more along the lines as a rival to Sidious in the sense Maul had the intelligence, ability, knowledge, etc,  to destroy the Sith Grand Plan, but it is part of the sentence that first discusses Savage's physical ability.  Well, either way, Savage on his own was seen as a threat by Count Dooku in TCW:



Count Dooku wrote:He is a threat to all of us, even the Jedi.



Moving forward...


Latham2000 wrote:"Noting the growing power of the brothers, Sidious confronts Savage Opress and Maul on Mandalore. As he dies, Opress expresses regret that he was never Maul's equal.― Ultimate Star Wars: Characters, Creatures, Locations, Technology, Vehicles (2015).

^^^This is in reference to Savage's last words said as the green ichor of the Nightsisters' magick left his body.  He says "he never was", which I had understood as Savage was never meant to be what Maul was.  Savage had to have Magick used on him to transform himself into a Force behemoth.  This is a talking point, perhaps.  It's late and I need to go.  I can't finish this.  In the meantime, thanks for replying with so much info.  My whole point in the beginning was that I wasn't sure how anyone knew without a doubt that specifically season four Savage was not just below Maul, but exceedingly below Maul.
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 12th 2020, 4:25 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Azronger wrote:@Praxis Well, it wasn't that I'm taking Malgus's comments at face value, it's more so the fact that he was capable of and comfortable saying those things in the heat of combat. Consider something like Sidious vs. Maul at the very end - Malgus probably would not have been talking if the duel was that short and if he was forced to exert himself 110% to barely and only briefly keep up. It's not what he says; it's the fact that he says those things confidently to begin with that to me indicates he didn't get slaughtered and was putting up a solid fight for a decent duration of time. I don't think he's the Outlander's equal and he doesn't have to be "close" in the sense of Kenobi vs. Mustafar Vader or Yoda vs. Sidious, but he can keep up even when the Outlander is assisted by two other people. Like, he should at least be capable of contending to the same extent as the Outlander did against Arcann in their first fight, although probably even better, in my opinion (not getting ragdolled all the time). That should put him above vanilla Act III Hero at least. His initial comment that he would kill the trio easily could be seen as an indication of that, since he doesn't know of the power increase the Outlander has underwent since their last fight in the False Emperor flashpoint.

I think that's fair. When you consider the absurdity of the growth the Outlander experiences after Act III it's hard not slot Malgus somewhere in there if he did indeed put up a decent fight. But still, whether Malgus fits somewhere in that gap isn't certain and just seems like guesswork ultimately; hence why I'm hesitant to grant him any sort of scaling.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Three
Level Three

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 12th 2020, 9:04 am
@Heathen
I said:
We don't even see Savage in S4 until he finds Maul, and then they disappear until S5.  [size=16]The Sith Hunters takes place between four and five.  I'm not arguing with you.  I'd just like to know what was said considering there are three published quotes I can think of offhand which place Savage > Maul in S4.[/size]

You said:

@Latham2000 wrote:We [size=14]did see Savage and Maul right at the end of S4 in the episodes Brothers and Revenge in case you forgot.[/size]

LMAO I didn't forget, but I am so thankful you made sure I didn't! =D I was saying that we did not see Savage in season four until he finds Maul.  There is no indication of who is more powerful than whom until the first episode of season five.  I didn't understand why Filoni would say that Maul was super dominant compared to Savage specifically during season four.  Afterward, of course.

You're right, we don't see Savage in season 4 until he finds Maul... In the last two episodes of season 4. In other words, we do see Maul and Savage in season 4, I don't why you bothered typing this in the first place. Filoni was speaking what he wanted to say to his friends on the Rebels Force radio.  

Next:
Actually, what Filoni said possibly places an *unbroken* Maul > Vader.  This could be backed up by a Lucas quote along with two quotes in TCW Magazine if Filoni had explicitly said that, but he didn't.  Notice I use words such as "possibly", "if", and "explicitly," which are key terms and points to consider when publicly arguing head canon with another person.  You should not "read between lines" for a "clear picture" and then present this is clear evidence - should be more than personal theory.

This doesn't actually address my breakdown of Filoni's statement. Filoni isn't remotely suggesting that an unbroken Maul > Vader. The fact that Filoni doesn't explicitly say S4 Maul is better than S4 Savage doesn't eliminate the chance that he implicitly said that S4 Maul is better than S4 Savage. Filoni uses the key terminology for S4 Maul, such as that he's "a super dangerous threat because he's been trained for years" > "he's really adept" > "he's kind of in the Vader-realm" ―> "he's well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation" 

This clearly screams that S4 Maul is somewhat in Vader's realm as far as his threat level is concerned because because of his Sith training under Sidious that sets him apart from S4 Savage, who Filoni describes as a "very poorly trained Dark Side wielder" ―> "He's all aggression and power" ―> "He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how." mere seconds before describing the kind of serious threat level that Maul presents in the galaxy. Arguing that Filoni wasn't talking about threat levels, even though it's blatantly obvious that he's comparing the different threat levels that Maul and Savage presents, is just a really arbitrary rebuttal. 

"BUT he's broken[THEREFORE] he's kind of in the Vader-realm..." is what Filoni is saying.  He is also saying Maul is not completely connected to what he is familiar with.  It's like the wording used to describe one reason why Kenobi defeated an undefeatable Vader on Mustafar:  "Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable."  Maul is not his complete self.  This is nothing that disparages Maul; It does not, however, indicate what you think it does. 

Filoni never said that Maul is kind of in the Vader realm purely because he was broken, you completely omitted the part where he says "Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation." ―> he is saying that Maul is therefore kind of in the Vader-realm because he is an superior dangerous threat who was trained for many years by Sidious himself in all types of Sith ways.  The fact that Filoni says that Maul is broken is not mutually exclusive with the rest of what he said. Your comparison with Kenobi's victory over Anakin on Mustafar is a false equivalency. This doesn't disparage Maul at all, but actually speaks volumes of how highly Filoni thinks of Vader, the notion that S4 Maul is inferior Vader doesn't mean that Maul sucks. 

Next:

Filoni didn't regard Vader as this magnificent dark beast as he is now in canon. Saying Maul is in the Vader realm is bringing Maul down from a higher roost.

He clearly did because he planned on killing Maul off at the hands of Vader in an earlier version of Twilight of the Apprentice, which is canon: 

Dave Filoni: Originally Maul perished in the season two finale where he returned. It was a one-off appearance. So originally in that episode you were gonna get Vader fighting Maul, Vader would have killed Maul, and then fought Ahsoka. It just became unwieldy. There were too many storylines, and there isn't enough emotional material between Vader and Maul. It's more of a fan fiction fun thought that they fought. The emotional drama was really between Vader and Ahsoka. So we decided to let Maul live.

Source - How The Star Wars Rebels Season 2 Finale Originally Handled Darth Maul

The fact that Filoni considers Maul to be sub-Vader doesn't take anything away from Maul. It just says a lot more about how good Vader is. 

Next:
There are plenty of quotes to support this, but I'll add only this one of Lucas':

George Lucas, \"George Lucas and the Cult of Darth Vader" The Rolling Stone, 2005 wrote:
He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become.

^^^"Darth Vader was like Darth Maul".

You're completely ripping this out its context. Lucas said that Darth Vader is like Darth Maul in the sense that he is no longer as strong as the Emperor, but is now like Maul, who's weaker than the Emperor, but this wasn't what Vader was supposed to become. The exact same George Lucas who you're quoting also says in the exact words:

"he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku."


If you're trying to argue that the concept of Maul being like Vader, who is weaker than Palpatine, means that Vader sucks, then by that line of thought, Maul and Dooku also suck, and by extension, anyone who is weaker than Palpatine and Palpatine's apprentices sucks. I'm sorry, but that is a silly argument that shouldn't be used. 

Next:
You say Filoni distinguished between threat levels, which I did not read. Is it in another quote, or was your quote out of context?  What I understand from Filoni is that he is distinguishing between the types of Force wielders Maul and Savage are. Savage is a brute powerhouse without much education and experience.  Maul has a lot of education and experience.  Filoni likened Savage to the Hulk, who can contend with Thor, a god, and Superman, virtually a god. Mindless brute versus highly intelligent, nigh indestructible beings.  All are about equal in producing end results.  End results being equal, I'm not seeing a distinction in levels. 

You're not reading that because you didn't pay attention to the context of Filoni's statement, that's not my problem, and I've already responded to your fallacious rebuttal to my breakdown of Filoni's quote. Filoni likened Savage to the Hulk in the sense that "he's all aggression and power" and that "but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how" not that Savage is as powerful as the Hulk, that's a blatant misreading of the quote. Is Savage powerful? Yes he is. Yes he is. Is Savage a brute powerhouse? Yes he is. Is Savage about equal to Maul? No he isn't. Filoni never implicitly, let alone explicitly said that S4 Savage and S4 Maul are equals. You're grasping at straws if you continue arguing otherwise.

Next:
We also know from the show that the Jedi considered Savage a very real threat.  In season three, Dooku said Savage was a monster and getting stronger daily. On more than one occasion, Savage, alone, fought off, ragdolled, threw across a room, and evaded the Jedi dynamic duo.

Star Wars dot com: Savage Opress Biography Gallery wrote:

Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi arrived on Toydaria, but could not stop Opress.


Star Wars dot com: Witches of the Mist Episode Gallery wrote:
Savage is engaged in a heated lightsaber battle with Anakin and Obi-Wan in the frigate hangar.

^^^Savage survived and escaped.

Savage's chops may not be expertly-skilled, but he gets the job done even when fighting one of the most skilled expert-lightsaber duelists:

AEYNtK wrote:
[ltr]True or False?- ''Dooku cannot be bested in a lightsaber duel.''
False: ''Opress disarms him but is bested by Force lightning.''[/ltr]






















^^^Those quotes are pre-Maul, season 3. Savage grew more powerful: 

The Clone Wars Episode Guide, 2013

Enlarge this imageClick to see fullsize
★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Main-qimg-6c48f21dc6774ea9eb22d295c2173e9b

All of these quotes and feats are impressive but they're not mutually exclusive with the quotes supporting S4 Maul's superiority over S4 Savage. 

Next:
Based solely on what I'm reading, I do not get the same end result you do, but perhaps Filoni had more to say?  Otherwise, Filoni is just saying that Maul isn't his old self, but Maul is still very deadly.  Savage is also a threat, albeit a brutish one. 

You're not getting the same end result because you're misreading Filoni's quote. He says that Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder who is all aggression and power, kind of like the Hulk, but doesn't have much discipline and know how. Maul in contrast, is a super dangerous threat because he trained for many years, is really adept, is broken, but he's kind of in the Vader realm, though he no longer has a master, he is well trained by Sidious himself in all types of Sith ways. 

Next:
ike I said, there are sources which place Savage above Maul as a Force wielder, but I had said three. I know of three, but at this very moment, I can only think of one:

The Clone Wars Magazine:

Enlarge this imageClick to see fullsize
★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Tcw_ma10

I addressed this towards the end of my post, which you didn't respond to because of time constraints.

Next:
The illustration used for the SWI 134 quote is from Death Sentence, which takes place between seasons four and five. Also, the publication date is after season four finished-the entire season and not just the Savage and Maul episodes. 

It's evidently talking about what the mainstream audience know about Maul and Savage so far, which as of the release date of the magazine, is limited to their S4 versions because it literally starts with "Viewers of Star Wars: The Clone Wars know that Maul's brother Savage Opress is no slouch when it comes to fighting" ―> makes this clear, and keep in that Star Wars Insider was published in 12th June 2012, the first issue of Death Sentence was released in 25th July 2012.

Next:
However, I had to think about "...a far more formidable foe."  I thought at first it was more along the lines as a rival to Sidious in the sense Maul had the intelligence, ability, knowledge, etc,  to destroy the Sith Grand Plan, but it is part of the sentence that first discusses Savage's physical ability. 

You're reaching once again. It's not limiting their prowess to their physical ability, the ""He would tear the arms off a wookiee with his teeth" was a rhetorical emphasis on Savage's prowess. The exact same text that you're misreading literally also says this: 

"Viewers of Star Wars: The Clone Wars know that Maul's brother Savage Opress is no slouch when it comes to fighting. But compared to Maul, even a killer like Savage takes a back seat.―> Savage isn't a slouch when it comes to fighting, but when compared to Maul, he takes a backseat i.e. Maul is the superior fighter, it doesn't specify in what category that Maul is the superior fighter, so the notion that it's limiting Maul's superiority to nothing more than physical prowess, as opposed to being the superior fighter in general, is incredibly disingenuous. I'd also like to emphasise that it also says this:

"But Maul is calculating, and his ability makes him a far more formidable foe." ―> i.e. Maul's ability makes him a far more formidable foe than Savage. He's far more formidable than him because he's flat out better than him by a significant margin. It's beyond me why you're trivialising this quote when it's crystal clear on the disparity between S4 Maul and S4 Savage. 

Next:

Well, either way, Savage on his own was seen as a threat by Count Dooku in TCW:

Count Dooku wrote:
He is a threat to all of us, even the Jedi

Good for Savage, but this doesn't invalidate the Star Wars Insider quote saying that Savage takes a back seat to Maul in fighting prowess, and that Maul's ability makes him a far more formidable foe than Savage. 

^^^This is in reference to Savage's last words said as the green ichor of the Nightsisters' magick left his body.  He says "he never was", which I had understood as Savage was never meant to be what Maul was.  Savage had to have Magick used on him to transform himself into a Force behemoth. This is a talking point, perhaps.

You're correct, it's referring to Savage's dying words, and both editions of Ultimate Star Wars explicitly define Savage's dying words as him expressing regret that he was never Maul's equal i.e.  Savage has been Maul's inferior the moment Maul's powers and memories were restored by Mother Talzin on Dathomir. 

It's late and I need to go. I can't finish this. In the meantime, thanks for replying with so much info. My whole point in the beginning was that I wasn't sure how anyone knew without a doubt that specifically season four Savage was not just below Maul, but exceedingly below Maul.

You're welcome, you just haven't adequately addressed the quotes that I cited, but blatantly distorted them. Good day.


Last edited by Latham2000 on March 12th 2020, 2:06 pm; edited 4 times in total
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March 12th 2020, 12:34 pm
Latham2000 wrote:If you're trying to argue that the concept of Maul being like Vader, who is weaker than Palpatine, means that Vader sucks, then by that line of thought, Maul and Dooku also suck, and by extension, anyone who is weaker than Palpatine and Palpatine's apprentices sucks, which is included.

Anyone below Sidious *does* suck.
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March 12th 2020, 1:58 pm
Meatpants wrote:
Latham2000 wrote:If you're trying to argue that the concept of Maul being like Vader, who is weaker than Palpatine, means that Vader sucks, then by that line of thought, Maul and Dooku also suck, and by extension, anyone who is weaker than Palpatine and Palpatine's apprentices sucks, which is included.

Anyone below Sidious *does* suck.
Been saying this about Plagueis for a while now. Glad you agree.
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March 12th 2020, 2:07 pm
Meatpants wrote:
Latham2000 wrote:If you're trying to argue that the concept of Maul being like Vader, who is weaker than Palpatine, means that Vader sucks, then by that line of thought, Maul and Dooku also suck, and by extension, anyone who is weaker than Palpatine and Palpatine's apprentices sucks, which is included.

Anyone below Sidious *does* suck.

Why?
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March 12th 2020, 11:25 pm
@latham2000


lathamiQOO2 wrote:
LMAO I didn't forget, but I am so thankful you made sure I didn't! =D I was saying that we did not see Savage in season four until he finds Maul.  There is no indication of who is more powerful than whom until the first episode of season five.  I didn't understand why Filoni would say that Maul was super dominant compared to Savage specifically during season four.  Afterward, of course.

You're right, we don't see Savage in season 4 until he finds Maul... In the last two episodes of season 4. In other words, we do see Maul and Savage in season 4, I don't why you bothered typing this in the first place. Filoni was speaking what he wanted to say to his friends on the Rebels Force radio.  

I explain why I said it directly above where you say you don't know why I bothered typing it in the first place.  Seriously.  Just take a look two sentences above your first one.


latman2000 wrote: mere seconds before describing the kind of serious threat level that Maul presents in the galaxy. Arguing that Filoni wasn't talking about threat levels, even though it's blatantly obvious that he's comparing the different threat levels that Maul and Savage presents, is just a really arbitrary rebuttal. 

Holy nerfherders, LatMan!  LMAO Dude, seriously, did you skip where I asked you if what you said was a partial quote or a quote taken out of context?  Why flex on me because you didn't provide what I realized might be missing.  And no, it is not blatantly obvious considering other statements which contradict what you say Filoni is saying overall;  I provided one of these statements which was officially published as opposed to some dude saying what he wants to say to his bud-deeez.  Sayin wut he wanna say.


latham.0002 wrote:Filoni never said that Maul is kind of in the Vader realm purely because he was broken, you completely omitted the part where he says "Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation." ―> he is saying that Maul is therefore kind of in the Vader-realm because he is an superior dangerous threat who was trained for many years by Sidious himself in all types of Sith ways.  The fact that Filoni says that Maul is broken is not mutually exclusive with the rest of what he said. Your comparison with Kenobi's victory over Anakin on Mustafar is a false equivalency. This doesn't disparage Maul at all, but actually speaks volumes of how highly Filoni thinks of Vader, the notion that S4 Maul is inferior Vader doesn't mean that Maul sucks.

 The word "but" has a lot to do with my statement.  Grammar.  Then again, this is Filoni have a verbal conversation with someone, and you did not provide the full context, which, again, I brought up.  Twice.  If a false equivalency exists, then it does so because of your inability to provide the full context.  Based strictly on the wording you provide, it's not obvious.  Not being able to listen to Filoni and going strictly off the verbiage given, all I can say is grammar matters.  That whole "Maul is therefore kind of in the Vader-realm because he is an superior dangerous threat who..." spiel doesn't really work for me in the same way it works for you.  


1.  FILONI:  "...but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew..."
2. YOU:  .   "Maul is therefore kind of in the Vader-realm because he is an superior dangerous threat who.."


I am having some problems here seeing your pov.



makingitupaswego2000 wrote:The fact that Filoni considers Maul to be sub-Vader doesn't take anything away from Maul. It just says a lot more about how good Vader is. 

FILONI:  "...but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm..."



Again, perhaps I need to hear the man speaking.  A link would be appreciated.

vaderandmaulsuck2000 wrote:

If you're trying to argue that the concept of Maul being like Vader, who is weaker than Palpatine, means that Vader sucks, then by that line of thought, Maul and Dooku also suck, and by extension, anyone who is weaker than Palpatine and Palpatine's apprentices sucks. I'm sorry, but that is a silly argument that shouldn't be used. 

I said I was not disparaging Maul, and fortunately, I wasn't using that as my argument.  I was saying that Vader was no longer as strong as he was and was now on the level of Maul and Dooku...Kind of saying that Vader is down a notch or so and on Maul's level.  I said this with the intention to back up the idea that Maul being on Vader's level didn't mean that Maul was level 9000, which is how you seem to be interpreting Filoni.  In no way am I saying Vader sucks.  In no way am I saying Palpatine's apprentices sucks. 

saltedham2000 wrote:
...Filoni likened Savage to the Hulk in the sense that "he's all aggression and power" and that "but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how" not that Savage is as powerful as the Hulk, that's a blatant misreading of the quote. Is Savage powerful? Yes he is. Yes he is. Is Savage a brute powerhouse? Yes he is. 

Here is what I said, which you quoted:
"You say Filoni distinguished between threat levels, which I did not read. Is it in another quote, or was your quote out of context?  What I understand from Filoni is that he is distinguishing between the types of Force wielders Maul and Savage are. Savage is a brute powerhouse without much education and experience.  Maul has a lot of education and experience.  Filoni likened Savage to the Hulk, who can contend with Thor, a god, and Superman, virtually a god. Mindless brute versus highly intelligent, nigh indestructible beings.  All are about equal in producing end results.  End results being equal, I'm not seeing a distinction in levels. "


^^^Honestly, I am not smart enough to reply to this.  I'm kind of left just sitting here...



pepperedham2000 wrote:Is Savage about equal to Maul? No he isn't. Filoni never implicitly, let alone explicitly said that S4 Savage and S4 Maul are equals. You're grasping at straws if you continue arguing otherwise.

I said that the end results we see from Thor, Superman, and Hulk are about equal.  They get their jobs done.  They beat up their enemies.  How they go about doing it is different.  One is a brute while the other two are intelligent and gods.    


The end results are equal =/= Savage is about equal to Maul.


I agree that Filoni never implicitly or explicitly said season four Savage and season four Maul are equals.  This is similar to how he doesn't in saying season four Savage and season four Maul are not equals, or at least not in the context provided by you.


All of that said, two things:
1. Filoni's interview took place in May 2012.
2. "Brothers" and "Revenge" aired in March 2012, which was the end of season four.
3. Season five was already mapped out and written and in the process of being produced.


All of this means that unless Filoni says he is discussing specifically season four Savage and Maul, then there is no reason to assume otherwise, especially considering facts officially published which explicitly say that Savage "has greater control and power of the Force" than his brother.  


In regards to what is socially said versus what is officially published:
★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Matt_m10



^^^ "The Facts Are In The Publishing Itself"


It is because there are statements about season four Savage which place him above Maul that I asked you in the first place where it was that Filoni specifically said that S4 Maul >>>>>> S4 Savage.  Filoni said something (as you interpreted it) which directly contradicts officially published statements.  I just want to get the facts straight.


I know you have more say.  I know I couldn't finish last night because of time.  It's the same now as well, but I'll try to get back tonight and finish this.  I thought I'd have time to finish last night's post and reply to your new reply, but I apologize I can't.  I know you said you  address the Savage mag quote, but I'll get to it later as well.
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March 13th 2020, 3:09 am
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Plo being distracted is a respectable interpretation of the fight - see electric/emotinal shock/ lapse in force concentration theorem.  

Magazine cut outs claiming Savage has better "mastery" of the force between the brothers diminishes the reliability magazine cut outs.  Duh.  And wasn't mastery the reason for Maul's survival after being split in half ? Haven't seen Opress - the dumb brute - do that. 

Savage overpowering people who, in the same series, contend with noodle armed rabble and have issues lifting more than their body weight won't tell me how strong he is.  Malgus has every advantage otherwise.


Last edited by Ziggy on March 13th 2020, 7:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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March 13th 2020, 1:40 pm
@Heathen

I explain why I said it directly above where you say you don't know why I bothered typing it in the first place.  Seriously.  Just take a look two sentences above your first one.

Apologies for the miscommunication, the way you worded your statement just confused me.

Holy nerfherders, LatMan!  LMAO Dude, seriously, did you skip where I asked you if what you said was a partial quote or a quote taken out of context?  Why flex on me because you didn't provide what I realized might be missing.  And no, it is not blatantly obvious considering other statements which contradict what you say Filoni is saying overall;  I provided one of these statements which was officially published as opposed to some dude saying what he wants to say to his bud-deeez.  Sayin wut he wanna say.

Holy nerfherders, you said this much later on in your post. I wasn't flexing on you, writing walls of text is not flexing, and funnily enough... You literally ommited more than half of my rebuttal explaining your argument doesn't address my breakdown. This is the entirety of what I said:

This doesn't actually address my breakdown of Filoni's statement. Filoni isn't remotely suggesting that an unbroken Maul > Vader. The fact that Filoni doesn't explicitly say S4 Maul is better than S4 Savage doesn't eliminate the chance that he implicitly said that S4 Maul is better than S4 Savage. Filoni uses the key terminology for S4 Maul, such as that he's "a super dangerous threat because he's been trained for years" > "he's really adept" > "he's kind of in the Vader-realm" ―> "he's well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation" 

This clearly screams that S4 Maul is somewhat in Vader's realm as far as his threat level is concerned because because of his Sith training under Sidious that sets him apart from S4 Savage, who Filoni describes as a "very poorly trained Dark Side wielder" ―> "He's all aggression and power" ―> "He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how." mere seconds before describing the kind of serious threat level that Maul presents in the galaxy. Arguing that Filoni wasn't talking about threat levels, even though it's blatantly obvious that he's comparing the different threat levels that Maul and Savage presents, is just a really arbitrary rebuttal.

But when you responded, you only responded to this part that began with "....mere seconds before describing the kind of serious threat level that Maul presents in the galaxy. Arguing that Filoni wasn't talking about threat levels, even though it's blatantly obvious that he's comparing the different threat levels that Maul and Savage presents, is just a really arbitrary rebuttal" > so if you're complaining about me "skipping the part" of where you asked me if what I said was a partial quote or a quote taken out of context - even though you asked me this later in a different paragraph - but yet you have the nerve to ignore most of my rebuttal. Anyway, here's more of the quote, it took me an hour to find it:

Dave Filoni: And then Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder. He's all... He's all aggression and power. He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how. Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation. Again, I don't to give too much away, but you're gonna see a lot more of this in Season 5 with Maul... and you know, and other bad guys.

Source ― Weekly ForceCast: May 4, 2012

^ I've highlighted more of rest of what Filoni had to say, but it doesn't change anything. After he talks about Maul and Savage, he says that he doesn't want to give too much away and that you'll see more of this in S5. The website that this podcast is on makes it difficult for me to listen to what Filoni is saying and quoting him simultaneously, he's basically talking how the Rule of Two keeps getting broken during TCW and what unique positions each Dark Sider is in. Before he says that Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder, he talks about what position Ventress is in, saying that she's not really a Sith.

It is blatantly obvious what Filoni is saying and I've explained it, your refusal to pay attention to subtext of the quote doesn't render the quote invalid because you're allowing your own personal incredility to cloud your judgement. And the subtext of the Filoni's statement that heavily implies that S4 Maul > S4 Savage is directly supported by Star Wars Insider 134, 2015 edition of Ultimate Star Wars and the 2019 edition of Ultimate Star Wars, all of them are published sources, so even if we disregard Filoni's statement, you can't argue against the three published quotes supporting Maul's superiority over Savage.

Next:

The word "but" has a lot to do with my statement.  Grammar.  Then again, this is Filoni have a verbal conversation with someone, and you did not provide the full context, which, again, I brought up. Twice. If a false equivalency exists, then it does so because of your inability to provide the full context. Based strictly on the wording you provide, it's not obvious. Not being able to listen to Filoni and going strictly off the verbiage given, all I can say is grammar matters.  That whole "Maul is therefore kind of in the Vader-realm because he is an superior dangerous threat who..." spiel doesn't really work for me in the same way it works for you. 

The false equivalency exists because Obi-Wan's victory over Anakin because it is a red herring that has nothing to do with how Maul and Savage compare to each other, and you're committing the false dillema fallacy. I'm not going to repeat myself on your curiousity with Filoni's statement. Yes, Filoni did say "but" before saying that Maul was broken, but don't forget that Filoni says that Maul is: "a super dangerous threat because he's been trained for years" and "he's really adept" and "he's well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation" the fact that Filoni says that Maul is broken in itself is not why he said that Maul is in the Vader-realm.

Next:


1.  FILONI:  "...but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew..."
2. YOU:  .   "Maul is therefore kind of in the Vader-realm because he is an superior dangerous threat who.."

I am having some problems here seeing your pov.

You're committing the false dillema fallacy. Filoni didn't just say that that Maul was broken so he's kind of in the Vader realm, he also said: "....Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm..."

If Filoni had only said something along the line sof "Maul is broken, so he's kind of in the Vader realm" then you would be correct. But he didn't, and you know that he praised Maul's training under Sidious in the exact same podcast.


I'm having some problems with your rebuttal because it's assuming that Filoni contradicted himself in his statement, but none of what he said was mutually exclusive.


Next:


FILONI:  "...but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm..."

Again, perhaps I need to hear the man speaking.  A link would be appreciated.

Here's the link: http://www.forcecast.net/story/home/Weekly_ForceCast_May_4_2012_145329.asp

Go to 1:25:00 and wait until you hear him saying that Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder, though if your computer is shite like mine, it will take a while to get to that timestamp.

Next:

I said I was not disparaging Maul, and fortunately, I wasn't using that as my argument.  I was saying that Vader was no longer as strong as he was and was now on the level of Maul and Dooku...Kind of saying that Vader is down a notch or so and on Maul's level.  I said this with the intention to back up the idea that Maul being on Vader's level didn't mean that Maul was level 9000, which is how you seem to be interpreting Filoni.  In no way am I saying Vader sucks.  In no way am I saying Palpatine's apprentices sucks.

Apologies for the misunderstanding. But you've completely misunderstood what he said. Lucas's words weren't remotely subtextually similar to Filoni's words, and Lucas didn't say that Vader is on Maul's level, he says Vader is "like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" in the context that he's weaker than the Emperor after what happened on Mustafar, because Vader wasn't stronger before Obi-Wan cut off his limbs and left him to burn, he plainly says "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor" the fact that Lucas says that Vader is like Maul or Dooku is referring to the fact that he is now weaker than the Emperor, because Maul and Dooku were weaker than Palpatine. Lucas doesn't implicitly say that Vader, Maul and Dooku are on the same level, he says that they're alike in the sense that they're weaker than Palpatine, which isn't mutually exclusive with Vader being Maul's superior.

Here is what I said, which you quoted:

"You say Filoni distinguished between threat levels, which I did not read. Is it in another quote, or was your quote out of context?  What I understand from Filoni is that he is distinguishing between the types of Force wielders Maul and Savage are. Savage is a brute powerhouse without much education and experience.  Maul has a lot of education and experience.  Filoni likened Savage to the Hulk, who can contend with Thor, a god, and Superman, virtually a god. Mindless brute versus highly intelligent, nigh indestructible beings.  All are about equal in producing end results.  End results being equal, I'm not seeing a distinction in levels. "

^^^Honestly, I am not smart enough to reply to this.  I'm kind of left just sitting here...

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but don't be put yourself, you're just not responding with adequate rebuttals. Star Wars Debating skill is not synonymous with intelligence in the grand scheme of things.

I said that the end results we see from Thor, Superman, and Hulk are about equal.  They get their jobs done.  They beat up their enemies.  How they go about doing it is different.  One is a brute while the other two are intelligent and gods.   

I know that you said that, but Filoni wasn't comparing Savage to the Hulk in that sense, he was comparing him to the Hulk in the sense that he's "he's all aggression and power" and "but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how"

The end results are equal =/= Savage is about equal to Maul.

I agree that Filoni never implicitly or explicitly said season four Savage and season four Maul are equals.  This is similar to how he doesn't in saying season four Savage and season four Maul are not equals, or at least not in the context provided by you.

Filoni doesn't explicitly or implicitly say that S4 Maul and S4 Savage are equals, but he implicitly says that S4 Maul is better than S4 Savage, and Ultimate Star Wars disagrees with you on your claim that Maul and Savage are equals as of S4.

All of that said, two things:

1. Filoni's interview took place in May 2012.
2. "Brothers" and "Revenge" aired in March 2012, which was the end of season four.
3. Season five was already mapped out and written and in the process of being produced.

This is all true, but the general audience hasn't seen TCW S5 until August of 2012, this isn't a private conversation that he's having with someone behind the scenes, it's a conversation that he's having with people that publicly post Star Wars trivia stuff.

All of this means that unless Filoni says he is discussing specifically season four Savage and Maul, then there is no reason to assume otherwise, especially considering facts officially published which explicitly say that Savage "has greater control and power of the Force" than his brother. 

In regards to what is socially said versus what is officially published:
★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Matt_m10

^^^ "The Facts Are In The Publishing Itself"

It is because there are statements about season four Savage which place him above Maul that I asked you in the first place where it was that Filoni specifically said that S4 Maul >>>>>> S4 Savage.  Filoni said something (as you interpreted it) which directly contradicts officially published statements.  I just want to get the facts straight.

I know you have more say.  I know I couldn't finish last night because of time.  It's the same now as well, but I'll try to get back tonight and finish this.  I thought I'd have time to finish last night's post and reply to your new reply, but I apologize I can't.  I know you said you  address the Savage mag quote, but I'll get to it later as well.

It is a valid reason to say that Filoni is talking about what we know about Maul and Savage so far as of May 2012, given that he's not speaking in future tense. And if you want to bring up published materialss,  officially published say that Maul is "a far more formidable foe than Savage" and "Savage expresses regret that he was never Maul's equal" which not only directly support my intepretation of Filoni's statement regarding Maul and Savage, but they are more consistent than the single TCW magazine that you've cited, you've still not shown me the three alleged quotes, you've only shown me one quote that says Savage is more powerful than Maul, a single quote doesn't invalidate three other published quotes.
Ziggy
Ziggy

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 13th 2020, 7:31 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
It comes down to this.  Feats, comic book snippets, cookie recipes, wank etc aren't really good for determining how two very unrelated characters will fair against the other.  

Feats are subject to medium distortion : Yoda lifting only 5 munturr stones... Yoda redirecting missiles.... Yoda clapping million ton space behemoths into each other....  Mace cornered by battledroids... cornered by Aak dogs... bowling over an army.  Same characters, different styles and differing interpretations of their limits. 

On the other wank, If someone can be bothered to sift through all the cash-grab side publications of Lucas Licensing, they'll be a quote for every stupid argument deemed plausible.

I think Malgus has Savage outstripped by measurable quantity regarding the above.  I could be wrong, but failing that, I prefer a symbolic, more holistic and archetypical approach to the great versus conundrum.  My ethos says this,-  Savage is the sith brute archetype.  A worthy foot soilder, maybe a personal bodygaurd next to a better archetype - the warlord. Malgus, fits this mould and represents a higher breed of combatant.  Experienced, more versatile not as blunt.  And Savage hasn't proven himself against the lightning either, and thus, he fries and dies.
Fated Xtasy
Fated Xtasy

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 13th 2020, 10:35 pm


BoD wrote:and Grievous was retreating in their first fight anyway.

And that’s exactly the fact that Grievus was retreating that makes Gallia impressive, As that is specifically attributed to her skill by several quotes, such as: 

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 37fa2b10
SAUCE!!!
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 18th 2020, 8:03 pm
Bump.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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March 18th 2020, 10:13 pm
So, does anyone have a meaningful way to connect these two together?
Praxis
Praxis
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★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 18th 2020, 10:37 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
You could scale the Outlander below TPM Mace and then scale Savage above since the Outlander has the option of rejoining the Jedi Order in Onslaught. I don't personally subscribe to that stance but I'm sure some would.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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March 18th 2020, 10:49 pm
Well, the TPM Mace quotes aren't 100% reliable. Alternatively, it might be possible to scale TPM Maul above Malgus who gave the Outlander a solid fight, and from there scale Savage to TPM Maul.
The God Emperor
The God Emperor

★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

March 21st 2020, 3:56 pm
Malgus probably wins. He was able to fight the Outlander who was the most powerful opponenet of Valkorion/Vitiate, including Revan. Savage is extremely powerful force user, probably has more raw power but Malgus is more experienced and more skilled. So, I'm leaning to Malgus in terms of force abilities. As for fighting skill, it could go either way. Savage's performance against Sidious is really good but Malgus is still more experienced and smarter. I think they are equal in terms of fighting skill. Eventually, I give Malgus the slight edge but Savage definitely puts a good fight against him.
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★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Fireside Chat #1 - Darth Malgus vs Savage Opress

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