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EmperorCaedus
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 3:56 am
Prime iterations for both

Who wins?
NotAA3
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 4:07 am
I'll back Cade.
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 4:29 am
Cade
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 4:52 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Kun, not convinced Cade can mess with dark tendrils
LadyKulvax
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 5:36 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Kun, far more powerful and is vastly more skilled and knowledgable.
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EmperorCaedus
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 10:54 am
@LadyKulvax: How so?
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 10:59 am
Cade was Muur'ked simultaneously with Azlyn Rae, Darth Maladi, Shado Vao and Krayt. Muur is magnitudes beneath Kun.
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EmperorCaedus
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 11:03 am
1. Is the Cade that got "Muur'ked" his prime iteration?
2. I've heard some posters claim Krayt was at 1% or something along those lines, is this true?
3. How does the spirit of Muur scale "magnitudes beneath Kun"?
LadyKulvax
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 11:32 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Cade's growth between Krayt's death and Krayt's rebirth is debatable at best.

If you're ILS, it's true.

Exar Kun is the most powerful of the Dark Lords of the Sith by his death, before him came Marka Ragnos, then prior to him we have Hord devouring the spirits of 1,000 Jedi which is far better than anything the Exiles have. Then you've got Muur.
Geistalt
Geistalt

Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 12:05 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Something else that's funny about Kulvax is the fact that she relies on Kun's accolades to place him as the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith who had ever lived up to that point, then dismisses Sidious' that say the same for him.
Geistalt
Geistalt

Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 12:06 pm
As for who's actually stronger between Cade and Kun, that's something I'm not touching with a 10-foot pole.
LadyKulvax
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 12:15 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Your blatant emotional breakdown regarding my existence notwithstanding. I don't dismiss Sidious'. Lmao.

Firstly, none of the Sheev accolades are objective OOU C-canon sources covering C-canon and are all-of-history encompassing. Unlike Exar Kun's.

Secondly, Leland Chee doesn't believe in absolutes such as those, didn't put it in the continuity Holocron and for the sole reason that it means all other Sith have to be less powerful than him. Limiting the rest of the mythos:

http://forums.starwars.com/thread.j...&start=1200[/mention] wrote:Dave111283(Darth Sexy): Being a huge Marka Ragnos fan, I just wanted to know where he ranks among the most powerful sith lords ever. The way he was always described made me think that he was the most powerful Sith Lord ever until sources came up with Sidious being the most powerful. Can you shed some light on this please?

Captain Yossarian: I don't know for sure but I would imagine that there are no hard and fast lists about which Sith are the most powerful. "Most Powerful" would have lots of different variables to take into account. So it may be best to say that he was simply amongst the most powerful Sith along with Sidious and whoever else there may be. It you definitively say that one Sith was the most powerful then by definition any others that you create in the EU must be inferior so I doubt the continuity people make such absolutes about the powerfulness of the characters.

Tasty Taste (Leland Chee): Agreed, us continuity people don't deal in absolutes. Only Sith deal in absolutes. With that said, we'll often need to come up with stats or rankings for gameplay purposes. These are for gameplay purposes only. Stunt coordinator Nick Gillard had his own lightsaber ranking, but even the use of this ranking system is limited because it was only the major characters from the prequel films that he ranked. We never expanded on that ranking system.

Care to tell me why I should?
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 8th 2020, 12:46 pm
@EmperorCaedus wrote:1. Is the Cade that got "Muur'ked" his prime iteration?
2. I've heard some posters claim Krayt was at 1% or something along those lines, is this true?
3. How does the spirit of Muur scale "magnitudes beneath Kun"?
Listen to LK at your own peril, fam.
NotAA3
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 20th 2020, 6:27 pm
@LadyKulvax

Regarding the scaling and Cade's growth:

Cade's growth between Krayt's death and Krayt's rebirth is debatable at best.

It's not really "debatable" when we have multiple sources clarifying Cade grew, and combative performances to prove it. He goes from being given consistently decent fights by Talon to dominating her in their final encounter - basically pummelling her with Telekinesis. Her being in awe of how much power he's attained, and wanting to immediately warn Krayt further reinforces the notion that he grew.

Darth Talon wrote:Cade is... stronger... than he was. Must... warn... Lord Krayt!

The opening of the next issue even emphasises such - it talks about how Talon went to warn Krayt about Cade's "new mastery" of the Force - so yeah, not really "debatable". It's only "debatable" if you're totally incapable of reading.

Cade was Muur'ked simultaneously with Azlyn Rae, Darth Maladi, Shado Vao and Krayt. If you're ILS, it's true.

All of the characters you listed - aside from Cade and Krayt - are pretty much fodder. Azlyn has nothing impressive from memory, Maladi was TP dominated by Cade later in the series, and Shado was beaten by Darth Talon when he had assistance from Wolf Sazen - the same Darth Talon that was being decisively beaten by Cade at this point in the series.

As for Krayt himself:

(1) We see fighting 4 Imperial Knights for a page tires him right at the start of the series, and he'd just fought an army of Rakghouls for a protracted period of time prior to engaging Muur.

(2) He spent a considerable portion of time on top of this duelling Celeste which would add to his already shitty state.

(3) Muur+Celeste leach power off him prior to blasting him - weakening him further.

(4) Krayt gets stabbed in the back as Muur+Celeste blasts him, and even then they still fail to kill him.

Regarding Muur's attack:

(1) He used his power in combination with Celeste's.

(2) His attack was charged, meanwhile Cade had a fraction of the time to raise a barrier to defend against it.

(3) As already mentioned, Muur leached power off Krayt in combination with his own.

All of this essentially throws a whole lot of doubt on the premise that Muur is >> Cade - he used other power sources to charge up a mega attack - his performance isn't indicative of his standard combat ability. While I will concede that Muur is probably comparable to Vong Krayt in light of new developments (the quote Ant found indicates that was the intent the comic was written with) I'm not convinced there's nearly the gap you're suggesting between Muur and pre-prime Cade, and I'm certainly not convinced that Prime Cade isn't more powerful than Muur.

Also, can I see a scan for Cade being hit by the blast? I don't recall seeing him get downed by Muur when the latter unleashes his mega attack.

Regarding the linking of Muur to Kun (I'll use some lovely colours):

Exar Kun is the most powerful of the Dark Lords of the Sith by his death, before him came Marka Ragnos, then prior to him we have Hord devouring the spirits of 1,000 Jedi which is far better than anything the Exiles have. Then you've got Muur.

Red Text: This creates an immediate link between Kun and Muur (via Ajunta), and while I'll concede Kun is more powerful I'm not convinced by your scaling to make Muur "order of magnitudes" weaker than Kun.

Blue Text: I get the link between Kun and Ragnos, but where is the link between Ragnos and Hord? Moreover, how big are these gaps? As far as I'm aware Hord, Ragnos, and Kun could all be fairly close.

Green Text: What??? I don't care if you think that The Exiles don't have feats/hype comparable to Hord that doesn't create a direct link. I can just as easily claim Muur's comparability with Krayt is "far better than anything Hord has". Even if it did create a distinct gap between Muur and Kun, it's absolutely something Cade's growth can make up for given that the chain probably looks something like this:

Kun > Ragnos > Hord >>> Muur ~ Krayt.

Other than Hord vs Exiles none of those gaps have to be massive, whereas Cade's growth is pretty extensive.

Note: I'm majorly considering raising Kun, and I'm no longer really convinced Cade wins this. I'm just not really a fan of the scaling you've used to link the two.


Last edited by NotAA3 on March 21st 2020, 6:11 pm; edited 7 times in total (Reason for editing : -)
NotAA3
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 20th 2020, 6:33 pm
Special credit to @KingofBlades, for resurrecting and advancing this argument when everyone else had turned the other way.
The God Emperor
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 20th 2020, 7:22 pm
Kun wins. Cade wasn't as powerful as Murr. But Kun was one of top 2 ancient sith, second to Vitiate.
NotAA3
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 20th 2020, 7:40 pm
@The God Emperor wrote:Kun wins. Cade wasn't as powerful as Murr. But Kun was one of top 2 ancient sith, second to Vitiate.

Based on?
The God Emperor
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 26th 2020, 1:19 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:
@The God Emperor wrote:Kun wins. Cade wasn't as powerful as Murr. But Kun was one of top 2 ancient sith, second to Vitiate.

Based on?
On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.
Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 26th 2020, 2:29 pm
Kuun wins
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 26th 2020, 3:59 pm
I don't think this is cut and dry.

1. According to Bane, the only real way to resist sorcery, particularly targeted against the mind, is sheer willpower. He learned this after studying it extensively for years from the same sources Zannah learnt it from, in anticipation of facing her. In contrast, Luke spent his time defending against Kun's Sorcery fumbling around and trying various techniques he had learned from Ben and Yoda, which as we know, are not going to help him at all. Moreover, Kun's techniques were backed by the extremely prodigious power of Kyp Durron. The fight is even described as being a 2v1 with Kun and Kyp acting independently at different points. 

2. Cade may actually be in a better position than Luke to defend against such an attack, seeing as he has at least encountered Sorcery and even reversed it on a master of the art (Maladi), his own Force power is extremely prodigious and he has extremely impressive willpower - all good signs historically of being able to resist these attacks.

Moreover, whether out of preference, because Jedi at the time were more familiar or because he simply lacked the ability, TotJ Kun has never used Sorcery against a noteworthy opponent... apart from Aleema?

So this will likely turn into a fairly standard fight of sabers, TK, lightning, etc, and if Kun uses Sorcery I'm not sold it will work out for him.

As for the Muur stuff, it's been addressed countless times by this point and it's not as if Kun has a particularly compelling line of scaling over Muur anyway. He's probably "more powerful" than Muur to an extent, but we've seen even more extreme accolades like "far more powerful" or "far outstrip" still manifest themselves as pretty close fights between the two characters. There could easily be a small gap between Muur and Kun.

Here's the thing with supremacy quotes too. If you're going to use the Outshone quote, which explicitly refers to Muur the Sith, not him as an appendage to Celeste, in order to argue that at the time of Vector he is > Krayt, you then need to accept that Krayt's skills with telekinesis and lightning "far outstrip" Muur.

And that would appear to be the case, seeing as Krayt was on the brink of death while stalemating Muur and Morne's combined power. So remove the coral seeds and physical injury and Krayt is probably going to kick Muur's ass around like a tin can. He would do the same to Cade, and has twice, but at least in making that point you can see why trying to scale Kun or Muur to Krayt to get them over Cade is fruitless.
NotAA3
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 26th 2020, 4:43 pm
@The God Emperor wrote:
@NotAA3 wrote:
@The God Emperor wrote:Kun wins. Cade wasn't as powerful as Murr. But Kun was one of top 2 ancient sith, second to Vitiate.

Based on?
On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.
Source: Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt

That quote refers to pre-prime Cade. Try again.
LadyKulvax
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 27th 2020, 7:35 am
ILS wrote:I don't think this is cut and dry.

1. According to Bane, the only real way to resist sorcery, particularly targeted against the mind, is sheer willpower. He learned this after studying it extensively for years from the same sources Zannah learnt it from, in anticipation of facing her. In contrast, Luke spent his time defending against Kun's Sorcery fumbling around and trying various techniques he had learned from Ben and Yoda, which as we know, are not going to help him at all. Moreover, Kun's techniques were backed by the extremely prodigious power of Kyp Durron. The fight is even described as being a 2v1 with Kun and Kyp acting independently at different points.

1.a.Darth Bane's limited knowledge of sorcery notwithstanding, Luke had the complete knowledge of the entire Banite line. Everything he did was useless.

1.b. Yes, Luke would've lost to either, most likely. Kun as a spirit himself is confirmed to be capable of defeating Luke alone.

ILS wrote:2. Cade may actually be in a better position than Luke to defend against such an attack, seeing as he has at least encountered Sorcery and even reversed it on a master of the art (Maladi), his own Force power is extremely prodigious and he has extremely impressive willpower - all good signs historically of being able to resist these attacks.

I mean, I'm not seeing a reason as to why Cade resisting completely different techniques from someone 4,000 years removed from Kun's sphere of knowledge is a sign of literally anything.

ILS wrote:Moreover, whether out of preference, because Jedi at the time were more familiar or because he simply lacked the ability, TotJ Kun has never used Sorcery against a noteworthy opponent... apart from Aleema?

Kun not being seen using it more isn't evidence at all for either of the latter conclusions. They worked on Luke whose knowledge dwarfs that of Cade and possibly even Wyyrlok considering Luke's the last person to gain the full extent of Banite knowledge which frankly dwarfs anything the One Sith can claim to.

ILS wrote:So this will likely turn into a fairly standard fight of sabers, TK, lightning, etc, and if Kun uses Sorcery I'm not sold it will work out for him.

I mean Kun using sorcery is just one possibility which you've provided no solid counters for besides standing up to relative fodder like Maladi and then appeals to the notably sorcery-illiterate Bane. Kun is hardly reliant on it for a victory here.

ILS wrote:As for the Muur stuff, it's been addressed countless times by this point.

I mean Muur having the excess power besides ragdolling Krayt to simultaneously do the same to Cade, Maladi, Azlyn Rae and Shado Vao too; the former two needing recovery to the point that Maladi needed a bacta tank. Effectively negates the idea that Muur needs his full power to defeat this Krayt. Yes, Krayt was a wreck and gets far more powerful afterwards. But saying this makes Muur fodder afterwards is frankly baseless. Muur by himself, regardless of Celeste is demonstratably, legitimately a contender for Krayt as far as being the most powerful Sith in the Legacy era goes:

Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun CVJId8A

ILS wrote:And it's not as if Kun has a particularly compelling line of scaling over Muur anyway. He's probably "more powerful" than Muur to an extent, but we've seen even more extreme accolades like "far more powerful" or "far outstrip" still manifest themselves as pretty close fights between the two characters. There could easily be a small gap between Muur and Kun.

I mean, even Naga Sadow has an arguable line of scaling that suggests he's over the Exiles. The Golden Age Sith completely resisted the influence of the Star Map whereas the source of the Jedi Exiles' power was that map. The Star Map then turned the Exiles on themselves and stripped its power from them just as it did to the Rakata. And that's besides the point that the Sith are stated to be more powerful than prior by Ragnos' time.

Ragnos is simply the most powerful Sith of the golden age era which is the strongest thus far. We also have Kreia's impression where she's in awe of Ragnos' tomb as compared to any of the others. And even calls him 'the great Sith Lord' and qualifies this as due to his 'tremendous strength' in the Force. A level of praise she gives no other ancient and not even Nihilus.

ILS wrote:Here's the thing with supremacy quotes too. If you're going to use the Outshone quote, which explicitly refers to Muur the Sith, not him as an appendage to Celeste, in order to argue that at the time of Vector he is > Krayt, you then need to accept that Krayt's skills with telekinesis and lightning "far outstrip" Muur.

Being more skilled in certain techniques and being more powerful in general are certainly different things. So I'll take that deal, thank you very much.

ILS wrote:And that would appear to be the case, seeing as Krayt was on the brink of death while stalemating Muur and Morne's combined power. So remove the coral seeds and physical injury and Krayt is probably going to kick Muur's ass around like a tin can. He would do the same to Cade, and has twice, but at least in making that point you can see why trying to scale Kun or Muur to Krayt to get them over Cade is fruitless.

I really wouldn't agree with this as we know Muur doesn't need his full power focused on this Krayt to Muurk him. And there's quite frankly a lot of Sith after him that are just far more impressive and have direct accolades over him. Exar Kun is far more impressive and has direct accolades over all of them in turn.

And in terms of feats; both his own and those he scales over in his own era, Kun's just vastly more impressive than Cade. I see no way for Cade pulling a W here.
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 27th 2020, 8:19 am
Hold up, if Kun could defeat Luke as a spirit...then how did Luke end up defeating him? Did Luke not stomp Kun at some point and wipe his spirit from existance?
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 27th 2020, 8:41 am
no?
Zenwolf
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

on March 27th 2020, 9:12 am
Ok stomp probably too strong a word, but re-finding the blog, it seems clear that later Luke was too much for Kun to handle.

Though come to think of it, how come whenever Kun is in a battle and clearly suppose to be in his physical body, why is it people cite feats that come far later and when he's a spirit? Is that how this works now? Can we bring up feats for characters that come much later, when the character in question is suppose to be at a specific point in the battle?

Example, could I use Malgus as of Return and bring up Deceived? I mean it's clearly the same character right? How come Kun is allowed this but no other character? Can we use DE Sidious feats for ROTS Sidious? 

People will bring up these abilities that Kun as a spirit, never used when in his physical body, so why are they applicable? Do we not go by the feats that the character has at the time?

Unless Spirit Kun is Kun's prime.
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Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun Empty Re: Cade Skywalker vs Exar Kun

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