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Seturna
Seturna

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Caedus vs the outlander

on February 19th 2020, 2:52 am
who wins
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on February 19th 2020, 6:15 pm
Probably Outlander
IG
IG
Level Three
Level Three

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on February 19th 2020, 6:26 pm
Outlander
Seturna
Seturna

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on February 20th 2020, 2:30 am
Diff?
The Lost
The Lost
Champion of Darkness
Champion of Darkness

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on February 20th 2020, 3:05 am
Seems like a good fight and debate.
ScionOfSkywalker77
ScionOfSkywalker77
Level Six
Level Six

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 12:15 am
Depends on which you think is more impressive. Caedus scaling a blitz gap above his previous incarnation who could already stomp anybody in the NJO blade to blade bar Luke or TOR's autismo mega chains leading back to all kinds of wack feats. I'll give it to Caedus, tentatively.
BoD
BoD
Level Five
Level Five

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 12:26 am
Outlander, decent to good fight.
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EmperorCaedus
Level Two
Level Two

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 1:52 am
Caedus takes this.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 7:12 am
Outlander.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Two
Level Two

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 7:17 am
Prime Outlander murks. Caedus vs any of the SoR protags would be difficult enough to argue.
IG
IG
Level Three
Level Three

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 8:19 am
@EmperorCaedus wrote:Caedus takes this.
Why? What does Caedus have to match the absurdity of TOR mega-chains? Outlander easily scales 1-2 oneshot gaps (gaps larger than Sheev to B-Team) above say Revan Reborn. He's probably reasonably above Revan by Onslaught tbh. I could see KOTETLander > Revan at point lol.
ScionOfSkywalker77
ScionOfSkywalker77
Level Six
Level Six

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 8:41 am
@IG Evidence? I very doubt Outlander can ragdoll Revan Reborn, let alone scale multiple ragdoll gaps above. But as far as scaling goes, Caedus (With a busted arm) matching the same Juke comparable to Rage!Luke, who casually dismissed an amped Inferno Caedus (While injured to the point where breathing was a struggle to him), is as good as anything I recall from Outlander. Caedus even by this point scales a stomp gap above Mara (She was comparable but inferior pre boost, post boost she's a stomp gap below) who gets Shadow Guard scaling off mid TFU Marek, who had "all but perfected" saber combat and stalemated an amped Shaak Ti. Pre boost Jacen also scales off the likes of Durron, who even by this point had feats like this:

Legacy Of The Force: Exile wrote:He glanced to the left, where the nearby Jedi Temple was clearly visible just past the Jade Shadow's stern. "Unless you'd like to save your engines-I can just pick you up and set you down over there." He reached out with his hand, palm up, an overly dramatic gesture, and the Jade Shadow vibrated for a moment, moving under the pressure he exerted with the Force.

Which are honestly above what I recall from TOR in terms of pure TK output.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on March 6th 2020, 12:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
IG
IG
Level Three
Level Three

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 8:47 am
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@IG Evidence? I very doubt Outlander can ragdoll Revan Reborn, let alone scale multiple ragdoll gaps above. As far as scaling goes Caedus (With a busted arm) matching the same Juke comparable to Rage!Luke who dismissed an amped Inferno Caedus while injured to the point where breathing was a struggle to him is as good as anything I recall from Outlander. Caedus even by this point scales a stomp gap above Mara (She was comparable but inferior pre boost, by post boost she's a stomp gap below) who gets Shadow Guard scaling off mid TFU Marek, who had "all but perfected" saber combat and stalemated an amped Shaak Ti. Pre boost Jacen also scales off the likes of Durron, who even by this point had feats like this:

He glanced to the left, where the nearby Jedi Temple was clearly visible just past the Jade Shadow's stern. "Unless you'd like to save your engines-I can just pick you up and set you down over there." He reached out with his hand, palm up, an overly dramatic gesture, and the Jade Shadow vibrated for a moment, moving under the pressure he exerted with the Force.

-LOTF: Exile

Which are honestly above what I recall from TOR.


Well Outlander is far above his KOTFE iteration who can match Arcann. The same Arcann is capable of easily stomping a HoT > SoR HoT. 

SoR HoT is far above his Act III Iteration who's likewise far above Act III Weakened Vitiate, who was capable of oneshotting Scourge. Scourge is far above his novel iteration, giving us a direct link. The gap from KOTFE Chapter 8 Outlander to Act III Vitiate and the gap from Act III Vitiate to Novel Scourge (Act III Vitiate can oneshot Scourge, who's far above his novel self) make up the Nyriss to Scourge gap and the Revan to Nyriss gap imo. Considering Arcann stomps KOTFE Chapter 8 Outlander, who has mega-growth till the end of KOTFE and matches Arcann, then mega-grows till EoKOTET (where I can see him stomping Arcann) + also growing till Onslaught.
Azronger
Azronger
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Moderator

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 8:50 am
Why does that sound like a parody of myself rather than a genuine argument

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IG
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Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 8:52 am
@Azronger wrote:Why does that sound like a parody of myself rather than a genuine argument
This was a low effort semi-troll post tbf.
ScionOfSkywalker77
ScionOfSkywalker77
Level Six
Level Six

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 8:58 am
@IG:

SoR HoT is far above his Act III Iteration who's likewise far above Act III Weakened Vitiate, who was capable of oneshotting Scourge. Scourge is far above his novel iteration, giving us a direct link. The gap from KOTFE Chapter 8 Outlander to Act III Vitiate and the gap from Act III Vitiate to Novel Scourge (Act III Vitiate can oneshot Scourge, who's far above his novel self) make up the Nyriss to Scourge gap and the Revan to Nyriss gap imo.

Why though? You've established 2 sets of gaps but not explained why one is larger and puts characters from it above the other chain. You've instead just stated your opinion.

Considering Arcann stomps KOTFE Chapter 8 Outlander, who has mega-growth till the end of KOTFE and matches Arcann, then mega-grows till EoKOTET (where I can see him stomping Arcann) + also growing till Onslaught.

Proof of Onslaught growth? More importantly though, why is any of this beyond what I posted for Caedus.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 9:21 am
Also, I'm not even convinced Arcann can stomp KOTFE Chapter 8 Outlander which is what IG is seemingly suggesting.
IG
IG
Level Three
Level Three

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 9:22 am
He did stomp him in their fight though.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 9:24 am
@IG wrote:He did stomp him in their fight though.

Proof?
IG
IG
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Level Three

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 9:31 am
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 9:48 am
@IG

That's just the LS section.

Arcann landing TK attacks on The Outlander is not proof he can stomp him, throughout the fight, we clearly see that is not the case as:

A) The Outlander contends in Lightsaber combat for a protracted 20-second exchange before Arcann finishes him, on top of any duelling they'd already engaged in off-screen.

B) The Outlander has likewise been shown to land TK attacks, he does so at the start of the duel, and although it's not nearly as effective as Arcann's due to the significant power difference, it still doesn't depict a stomp gap.

In the DS Section we see Arcann defend against Valk's massive lightning barrage (which knocks the HoT out) with a barrier, something far worse against lightning than tutaminis.

See above, Arcann clearly can't stomp The Outlander, and you haven't provided any analysis on the DS ending which makes me believe so, all you've done is stated what happens.
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 9:54 am
@IG wrote:
@Azronger wrote:Why does that sound like a parody of myself rather than a genuine argument
This was a low effort semi-troll post tbf.

How about you try to make a real argument once in a while then. 75% of the time you always retort with that you were trolling. I don't know if that's amusing for you but it certainly isn't for anyone else.

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Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 9:56 am
@Azronger wrote:
@IG wrote:
@Azronger wrote:Why does that sound like a parody of myself rather than a genuine argument
This was a low effort semi-troll post tbf.

How about you try to make a real argument once in a while then. 75% of the time you always retort with that you were trolling. I don't know if that's amusing for you but it certainly isn't for anyone else.
I said semi-troll, meaning that it was a somewhat joking scaling chain. I'm curious as to why you feel the need to retort to me on practically every thread with some sort of criticism or reprimand though.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 9:59 am
Perhaps, because you're easy to criticise? As Az said, you're supposed "trolling" isn't amusing, and you'd do better at improving if you actually tried to debate seriously on these topics. Do you think I got where I am now by shitposting in every thread, and never making a serious argument?
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

on March 1st 2020, 10:40 am
To quickly summarise the events of Arcann vs Outlander from an LS perspective:

(1) Arcann surprise attacks The Outlander, and The Outlander dodges.

(2) Arcann seemingly moves too fast for The Outlander and throws him around with Telekinesis.

(3) Arcann and The Outlander clash blades, and The Outlander Force Pushes Arcann back.

(4) An exchange of unknown length happens off-screen, and the fight resumes with The Outlander pushing Arcann back in Lightsaber combat.

(5) Arcann dodges one of The Outlander's strikes, and when the latter overextends Arcann Force Pushes him to the floor.

(6) HK-55 sacrifices himself to give The Outlander a chance to get to his feet. The fight probably would have ended there if not for him.

(7) The Outlander and Arcann then continue Lightsaber duelling for another 15-20 seconds with The Outlander initially pushing Arcann back, then getting put on the back foot.

(8) Arcann then pushes The Outlander away from him, creating room between them.

(9) Valkorion intervenes and offers his power to The Outlander.

(10) The Outlander refuses Valkorion's power, and Arcann uses the distance created between them to abuse his Force advantage - pulling The Outlander into his blade and ending the fight.

---

With that in mind, let's go through the fight:

(1) Nothing to really comment on here, only that The Outlander is clearly capable of reacting to Arcann under disadvantageous circumstances.

(2) Does not prove Arcann can stomp The Outlander. He explicitly only lands this TK attack when he has an opening and fails to replicate this feat for most of the fight - only doing so at the end of an extensive duel. We've seen Maul replicate the same feat on Kenobi, despite the fact that they are basically combative equals.

(3) This works against the pro-Arcann arguments, The Outlander can respond to his Telekinetic attacks in kind, though obviously with less force.

(4) The Outlander is on the offensive, despite the fact that Arcann has repeatedly shown in the fight that he likes to be the aggressor (see the end of their duel), which once again works against the pro-Arcann arguments. In conjunction with other evidence, it does not depict the kind of gap you're suggesting - you don't push someone back who can stomp you.

(5) This is at the tail end of the duel when The Outlander was more than likely tiring, and like premise (2) it is similar to the Maul/Kenobi instance(s), it's not outright domination.

(6) Arcann beats Outlander after a duel of unknown length where The Outlander lands a TK attack and pushes Arcann back in Lightsaber combat. Where is the stomp gap?

(7) The fact that The Outlander and Arcann have an exchange of such length on top of the duelling they've done already shows Arcann absolutely cannot stomp The Outlander whenever he wishes.

(8) and (10) Like premise (5) these feats are after already extensive duelling, and it's Arcann abusing openings in the same fashion as Maul/Kenobi.

---

Overall, I do agree Arcann is decisively better, he repeatedly uses Telekinetic attacks to gain the upper hand and is the dominant force throughout the duel, but The Outlander performed well enough that I do not believe there is a stomp gap between them.
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Caedus vs the outlander Empty Re: Caedus vs the outlander

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