Amped Jaina vs JA Kyp-Kun

Can Jaina react

Basically the fight is slightly weaker than Caedus vs. ~ JA Luke. I think Kyp/Kun stomp this lol.

Bruv are you ever going to explain why Kyp Kun ambushing Luke with powers he had no training to defend against makes him his rough equal in power?

ILS wrote:Bruv are you ever going to explain why Kyp Kun ambushing Luke with powers he had no training to defend against makes him his rough equal in power?

I meant equal combatatively. Jaina can't resist aforementioned powers either, so I mean... yeah, thing works here?

JA Kyp-Kun can casually put out attacks that would put Revan on his ass.

Fodder-Solo-Fel isn't taking that even with an Uncle amp.

Any version of Kyp ragdolls any version of Jaina. Don't @ me.

IG wrote:

ILS wrote:Bruv are you ever going to explain why Kyp Kun ambushing Luke with powers he had no training to defend against makes him his rough equal in power?

I meant equal combatatively. Jaina can't resist aforementioned powers either, so I mean... yeah, thing works here?

There's no arguing with it.

In fact, Kun can probably kill anyone with this technique, since his secrets died with him, and it attacks the soul. Post-DE Luke who learned all of Vader's darkest secrets from Sheev (so Banite Sith training) plus everything he learned from Yoda, Ben and by the end of DE did nothing to help him against Kun.

ILS wrote:

IG wrote:

ILS wrote:Bruv are you ever going to explain why Kyp Kun ambushing Luke with powers he had no training to defend against makes him his rough equal in power?

I meant equal combatatively. Jaina can't resist aforementioned powers either, so I mean... yeah, thing works here?

There's no arguing with it.

In fact, Kun can probably kill anyone with this technique, since his secrets died with him, and it attacks the soul. Post-DE Luke who learned all of Vader's darkest secrets from Sheev (so Banite Sith training) plus everything he learned from Yoda, Ben and by the end of DE did nothing to help him against Kun.

Eh, Kyp raised the initial tendrils that attacked Luke, with Kun joining in after to finish the job. Thus, Durron was likely aware of the power after turning back to the light and maybe helped Luke and the Order at large be aware of that particular power. Granted, there is no source to support this and I am merely speculating.

Kun with access to Kyp raw power oneshots Jaina. He wasn't even able to use his full arsenal with that power, but what he does have there is less than zero evidence Jaina could reasonably counter it.

ILS wrote:

IG wrote:

ILS wrote:Bruv are you ever going to explain why Kyp Kun ambushing Luke with powers he had no training to defend against makes him his rough equal in power?

I meant equal combatatively. Jaina can't resist aforementioned powers either, so I mean... yeah, thing works here?

There's no arguing with it.

In fact, Kun can probably kill anyone with this technique, since his secrets died with him, and it attacks the soul. Post-DE Luke who learned all of Vader's darkest secrets from Sheev (so Banite Sith training) plus everything he learned from Yoda, Ben and by the end of DE did nothing to help him against Kun.

This is one of the most interesting things about Kun. I have a more moderate version think that some Sith or Force Users actually would know of his abilities.

• Kun received his Jedi training on Dantooine. This would be widespread knowledge
  
• His lightsaber skills clearly lived on in some form or another, with his form being recognized in some fashion in Sith of later years. Notably both Maul and Ventress, I believe. 
  
• Kun's first batch of Sith knowledge came from Nadd (and by extension, Sadow). Nadd's holocron survived to the Banite Era and was uncovered by the Banite line, but I have personal suspicions that it was among the knowledge pool destroyed by Darth Gravid due to the lack of specific knowledge that later era Banites had with earlier sorcerous techniques and Sith.
  
• Kun's second batch of knowledge was from the Dark Holocron. This stuff is interesting, because the Dark Holocron survived. However we see Kun smash it and release the Sith Spirits who possess Jedi during his comic series. The only conclusions we can then come to is that the version we see later was either a lesser copy, a fake, or a repaired but diminished version. Hence, some of the knowledge would be kicking around, but the spiciest stuff would have died with the Sith Spirits 
  
• It was specifically stated he merged Sith and Jedi techniques, and was probably the first to do so, with the exception of maybe Nadd, predating Revan doing this. I think anyone who has a reasonable knowledge of Nadd's techniques or someone with a mastery of such merging such as Revan should prove more able than others to counter this portion Kun's abilities. However I think this stuff was much of what was lost
  
• Kun's last batch of knowledge came from the stuff he stole from the Jedi Archives. The only thing we know he got from this was the ritual thing, which was most likely a crude attempt at something resembling the Nathema Ritual, from the same base ritual that Aleema and Sadow also used to rip out the cores of stars. This is probably not common knowledge but certainly out there
  

Leaning Kyp-Kun

Decaf there really was no reason to drop a case for a sub Malak character, Kun is locked beneath the KOTOR Fodder

There's a whole plethora of reasons why your trolling fails. I'll use a new line of canonical quotes this time. Obviously, we're all aware at this point of the Dantooine Jedi Council scaling up to Bastila, this is Zhar Lestin, Dorak, Vrook Lamar and Vandar.

Vandar specifically is the most powerful:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Darth Nihilus began his Jedi purge by obliterating the planet of Katarr, where a secret conclave of the most powerful Jedi were taking place.

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote:Olive-skinned, long-eared and pint-sized, Vandar Tokare serves as the leading master of the respected Dantooine Jedi Council during the Mandalorian Wars.

Vandar, like Vrook Lamar, was serving in the Jedi Order building up to the Great Sith War:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Lamar, Vrook. An ancient Jedi Master who served on the Jedi Council on Dantooine in the years leading up to the Great Sith War.

Yet, we know who the most powerful Jedi are as of the Great Sith War:

Tales of the Jedi Companion wrote:"In time, Thon brought Nomi and Vima to Ossus where she could train at the Jedi center under the tutelage of the one of the greatest Jedi Masters― Vodo-Siosk Baas"

In other words, Senior High Council members, amongst the great Jedi Masters of the entire Old Sith Wars era:



Both of whom are pretty much nothing compared to Exar Kun. Vodo is stated to not be a match for Kun in either lightsaber skill or Force prowess:

Power of the Jedi Sourcebook wrote:The two fought, and Vodo-Siosk Baas was no match for Exar Kun’s double-bladed lightsaber and deep reserve of dark side power.

Odan-Urr reached 'deep' into his power on a light Force nexus as strong as Ossus and was incapable of severing Exar Kun from the Force who immediately kills him in return:


Despite Kun being incapable of defending himself from it, Odan-Urr was literally unable to trigger the mass die-off of Exar Kun's Midichlorians and strip him of his power as Nomi did to Ulic. Meaning that Odan's power is literally just not in Kun's postal code in terms of Force power:

Darth Plagueis, Book of Sith wrote:To sever the Force is to trigger a mass die-off of a victim's midichlorians--not enough to kill but enough to take a Jedi's power. It could be that the Jedi of old knew this feat, but if so they did not understand its underpinnings. Severing the Force is the inverse of what I have done when inducing midichlorians to create life.

Daniel Wallace, Book of Sith Endnotes wrote:"This removes a Jedi’s ability to use the Force, and was introduced in the Tales of the Jedi comics during the 1990s. Given what we’ve learned of the Force since then, I added the detail that this works by triggering a mass die-off of the subject’s midi-chlorians."

Then Exar Kun immediately gets stronger by using the Dark Holocron, the mythos' most powerful Sith holocron, which is stated to be responsible for the majority of Exar Kun's power growth thereafter:

The Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology wrote:The most powerful Sith Holocron contained Sith teachings and histories that covered some hundred thousand years.

Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Exar Kun might not have risen to power so quickly had Odan-Urr destroyed the Sith Holocron when he’d had the chance.

Then Kun meets Ood Bnar who on his post-transformation form could match Exar Kun on Ossus:

Tales of the Jedi wrote:Ood resists Kun's attempts to steal the lightsabers by undergoing a final metamorphosis, plunging roots into the ground and driving Kun back with a blast of power drawn from the depths of Ossus.

Exar Kun then becomes far superior to Ood afterwards due to his plunder from the Chamber of Antiquities:

Tales of the Jedi wrote:Looking at all the precious artifacts his Massassi have stolen, Exar Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use.

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.

TL;DR: Prime Kun >> Ood Bnar ~ Ossus Kun >> Odan Urr & Vodo > TOTJ Jedi Council(Thon, Jeth, etc.) > Vandar Tokare > Vrook Lamar ~\> DS Bastila > LS Bastila Shan ~ withstanding Darth Malak's torture and corruption for a week.

Jaina empowered by Luke is at best on par with the (hindered) Luke who defeated Caedus in inferno and is still outclassed by Invincible!Caedus in force power, whereas Kun with access to Kyp’s power not only has likely greater force power but has access to techniques Jaina simply wouldn’t be able to counter.

Haggis wrote:

ILS wrote:

IG wrote:

ILS wrote:Bruv are you ever going to explain why Kyp Kun ambushing Luke with powers he had no training to defend against makes him his rough equal in power?

I meant equal combatatively. Jaina can't resist aforementioned powers either, so I mean... yeah, thing works here?

There's no arguing with it.

In fact, Kun can probably kill anyone with this technique, since his secrets died with him, and it attacks the soul. Post-DE Luke who learned all of Vader's darkest secrets from Sheev (so Banite Sith training) plus everything he learned from Yoda, Ben and by the end of DE did nothing to help him against Kun.

Eh, Kyp raised the initial tendrils that attacked Luke, with Kun joining in after to finish the job. Thus, Durron was likely aware of the power after turning back to the light and maybe helped Luke and the Order at large be aware of that particular power. Granted, there is no source to support this and I am merely speculating.

He did after Kun died yes:

Champions of the Force wrote:
"No, I'll destroy you," Kyp said. In his hand he felt the black power crackling, the ebony lightning he had used to strike Master Skywalker: the power of fanged serpents, the dark teachings of the Sith. How ironic it would be to use Exar Kun's own power against him! The energy grew stronger, begging to be unleashed, demanding that he give himself over to it so he could eradicate the black shadow for all time.

But Kyp forced himself to stop. He felt his heart pounding, his blood singing in his ears, his anger taking control-and he knew that was wrong. He took deep breaths. He calmed himself. This was not the way.

The black Sith power faded from his fingertips.

Among other quotes. Basically we assume Kyp never told anyone else about how to defend against this power that almost killed Luke. No one inquired and he never taught anyone.

Probably.

kyp

@LadyKulvax

your entire argument rests on the assumption Vandare Tokare didn't just grow far more powerful than the other high councilor members. Also none of your scaling is affirmed by Chee 

Isv wrote:@LadyKulvax

your entire argument rests on the assumption Vandare Tokare didn't just grow far more powerful than the other high councilor members. Also none of your scaling is affirmed by Chee 

You're going to need to provide a source for Vandar growing up to the strength of the Council and then surpassing them. The loss of that Council in the Kun war is stated to be amongst the worst blows ever suffered by the Order in KotOR II. The Conclave on Katarr was just the latest in a string of attacks comparatively.

Chee didn't affirm that anymore than he's ever affirmed anything. It's almost as if you never read my debate with Ant over the quote.

KpK wins, though its arguable by how much of a margin tbh. I hold the belief that Amped Jaina was at least pushing a level luke was, (perhaps sinkhole station luke?) but i have KpK Much, much higher.

Jedi_Jesus wrote:KpK wins, though its arguable by how much of a margin tbh. I hold the belief that Amped Jaina was at least pushing a level luke was, (perhaps sinkhole station luke?) but i have KpK Much, much higher.

Kyp Kun oneshots, considering Amped Jaina is with Caedus at best, whereas Kyp Kun is near JA Luke.

Jedi_Jesus wrote:I hold the belief that Amped Jaina was at least pushing a level luke was, (perhaps sinkhole station luke?) 

I’d say amped  Jaina is well beyond SS Luke. The comparison is quite simple: Luke in that state was being seriously threatened by Olaris Rhea, who in turn is capped below Galaan, Katarn’s equal and Katarn is below Caedus by a solid margin. Jaina in that state is more or less Caedus’s equal. Still, that’s not nearly enough to win this fight.