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AlexSerp
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:15 pm
Darth Caedus as of LotF: Invincible. Darth Krayt as of Legacy—War 6.

R1: Sabers.
R2: Force power.
R3: Force knowledge.
R4: All-out. 


Last edited by AlexSerp on Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:07 am
Krayt in all
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:54 am
Caedus wins.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:01 pm
Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Loll10

The true Sith wins. Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt 4233314142
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:35 pm
Krayt.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:00 pm
Krayt is canonically superior.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:43 pm
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:11 am
I don't think it's canonical in the same sense of Sidious being the most powerful Sith ever. But I am honestly unsure how one could conclude Caedus is better. @Jacen
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:28 am
@ILS: I think you are familiar with Jacen reaction scaling, if not you can find it here.

This puts Jacen above or equal to TUF Luke, and by extension above DE Sidious. 

To be fair, I am not entirely sure on this matchup. But to claim an argument can't be made is low-balling Caedus' abilities.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:28 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Jacen wrote:@ILS: I think you are familiar with Jacen reaction scaling, if not you can find it here.

This puts Jacen above or equal to TUF Luke, and by extension above DE Sidious. 

To be fair, I am not entirely sure on this matchup. But to claim an argument can't be made is low-balling Caedus' abilities.
I fail to see how that argument puts Caedus "above or equal to" TUF Luke or DE Sidious, given the number of confounding variables at play. Because he deflected 2-3 blows at a time from Luke in Inferno or amped Jaina? For one, it's expressly noted that Caedus' Aing-Tii fighting sense was letting him anticipate Jaina's attacks:

Caedus felt a boot slam into his ribs-an instant before he saw it coming with his Aing-Tii fighting-sight-and the breath left his lungs.
[...]
But Caedus had anticipated her once again, leaning away to take the blow on his wounded shoulder rather than across his throat.

And while Jaina had received a considerable amp in raw power from Luke, that doesn't make her equal to Luke or even similar to him... Luke has his own body, muscle memory, mindset, fighting style, his own unique and considerable connection to the Force and not to mention his own unique relationship with Jacen himself. I mean, does it even make sense that Luke:

1. Projecting his power over a considerable distance (which adds strain to the power being used)
2. Projecting an identical illusion of himself over Jaina at all times
3. Giving Jaina what can only be a portion of his power (because he is splitting his attention between what is actually numerous tasks, not to mention his own homeostasis)
4. ...which Jaina likely can''t use as effectively as Luke himself due to her inferior mastery of the Force and natural talent with it

...would make Jaina as powerful, skilled and overall effective as Luke himself? Not really. It suggests that her own natural abilities would be bolstered to an extreme degree.

Moreover, Jaina was using an extremely crude and simple (by Caedus' estimation) fighting style, and no shortage of underhanded tactics (such as wielding a Beskad, having help from other shooters, flying at Caedus before he had much time to get settled into the fight after dealing with said shooters etc). Meaning, it would actually be easier for Caedus to anticipate her attacks than it would be if Luke was attacking him, because Luke's fighting style is (evident from Inferno where he had him dead to right in a matter of seconds) a lot more sophisticated than the one Jaina is using. Jaina is compensating for the skill deficiency through sheer brutality. And while that makes it easier for her to anticipate, Caedus has the problem of dealing with her unconventional tactics, such as the use of a beskad dagger.

So, Caedus' ability to react to Jaina is marred by the fact she's actually easier to anticipate than usual, and Caedus' ability to anticipate her is not based solely on Force power but on a unique Aing-Tii fighting sense ability, and the suggestion that Jaina is Luke-level is marred by the fact she is using every underhanded tactic she can think of to gain an edge over Caedus - she is only getting the same results as Luke through means that aren't causally related to either Force power or lightsaber skill.

And just to add to that... why would Caedus merely reacting to Jaina or Luke for a brief time elevate him above TUF Luke? It's not actually coherently put in the post itself how any of that adds up? You can be a clear inferior to someone, a Gillardian tier beneath them, and still react to them... Dooku and Yoda? Dooku and Anakin? Sidious and Maul, hell, even Savage and to a limited extent Kit Fisto? And again, this is while noting that 1. in Inferno, Luke had Caedus dead to rights within seconds, and 2. amped Jaina was not only easier to anticipate than Luke would be, but Caedus also has a unique ability which, regardless of power, aids one in anticipating the attacks of an opponent.

This attempt at a scaling chain has way, way too many moving parts that don't really gel, at all. And also, I noticed Elm posted the comic panels of Luke and DE Sheev dueling, but he knows fine well that the audiobook version of the fight (which he has posted at other times) and other descriptions (such as the one from Leia's perspective when she gradually "senses the Light winning" while she's watching them duel) portray it as being much longer than the three-exchange-stomp the comic depicted. Which is mostly a result of the fact comics, especially comics that put way less exposition into fighting details (DE being a 90s comic that's pretty notorious for this) have long time skips between panels. So actually, it seems like DE Sheev lasted longer against DE Luke than Caedus did against Luke in Inferno, and that's with Caedus having an ability tailored towards helping him anticipate his opponents. And while DE Luke is no TUF Luke, neither is Inferno Luke or amped Jaina, so again, there is really no reason to think Caedus scales above TUF Luke.

So... there goes "reaction scaling"... is there another reason you think Caedus has a distinct edge over Krayt that we're missing? I have no intention of lowballing him, I'm simply of the mind that there is no reason to choose Caedus as the winner regardless of how you compare them.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:46 am
Krayt is just better at everything lol
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:21 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@ILS wrote:I fail to see how that argument puts Caedus "above or equal to" TUF Luke or DE Sidious, given the number of confounding variables at play. Because he deflected 2-3 blows at a time from Luke in Inferno or amped Jaina? For one, it's expressly noted that Caedus' Aing-Tii fighting sense was letting him anticipate Jaina's attacks:

Caedus using Aing-Tii to deflect one of Jaina's blows is a permanent part of his skillset. How is this relevant?

@ILS wrote:And while Jaina had received a considerable amp in raw power from Luke, that doesn't make her equal to Luke or even similar to him... Luke has his own body, muscle memory, mindset, fighting style, his own unique and considerable connection to the Force and not to mention his own unique relationship with Jacen himself. I mean, does it even make sense that Luke:

1. Projecting his power over a considerable distance (which adds strain to the power being used)
2. Projecting an identical illusion of himself over Jaina at all times
3. Giving Jaina what can only be a portion of his power (because he is splitting his attention between what is actually numerous tasks, not to mention his own homeostasis)
4. ...which Jaina likely can''t use as effectively as Luke himself due to her inferior mastery of the Force and natural talent with it

...would make Jaina as powerful, skilled and overall effective as Luke himself? Not really. It suggests that her own natural abilities would be bolstered to an extreme degree.
The argument isn't about how Jaina is exactly 100% of LotF Luke, but rather whether she was on par with what Caedus had seen of Luke's power. Using Jacen reaction scaling, here is what we have: 

- When Luke attacks [pre-prime] Caedus in the Force through his starfighter in Revelation, in which Caedus explicitly notes that he realizes how much power Luke has.

- When Luke fights Caedus in Inferno, after which Caedus expresses surprise Luke's performance (far from going "wow he's suddenly super weak").

- When he fights alongside Luke in The Unifying Force, in which Luke had cast aside for that battle his fear of the dark side and was fighting in a oneness like state that would presumably be far, far, far above his much less powerful self's performance against Palpatine at the end of Dark Empire.

Using this, Caedus doesn't need to assess that Jaina is 100% LotF Luke, just that Jaina is on par with, or more powerful than other iterations of Luke that Jacen has seen/reacted to. 
[*]
@ILS wrote:Moreover, Jaina was using an extremely crude and simple (by Caedus' estimation) fighting style, and no shortage of underhanded tactics (such as wielding a Beskad, having help from other shooters, flying at Caedus before he had much time to get settled into the fight after dealing with said shooters etc). Meaning, it would actually be easier for Caedus to anticipate her attacks than it would be if Luke was attacking him, because Luke's fighting style is (evident from Inferno where he had him dead to right in a matter of seconds) a lot more sophisticated than the one Jaina is using. Jaina is compensating for the skill deficiency through sheer brutality. And while that makes it easier for her to anticipate, Caedus has the problem of dealing with her unconventional tactics, such as the use of a beskad dagger.

Here are Jacen's actual musings over Luke-amped-Jaina's fighting style:

Eager as he was to be rid of Luke, Caedus was also suspicious. His uncle had been using a new fighting style, one that he had never taught his students at the Jedi academy-one that he had never, as far as Caedus knew, used on anyone who had survived to describe it. The style was essentially conservative, brutal, and ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering it-and not all that tricky.

Caedus actually thinks very highly of "his" new fighting style. Not a "Why is Luke using this terrible form? Gosh he is so uncoordinated!."

Throughout their fight, Caedus is fully under the impression that this is indeed Luke. When the possibility of it being Jaina came up, here is how Caedus replied: 

"There was only one Jedi," Mirta said. "Your sister, Jaina."

"My sister?" Caedus roared despite himself. "You expect me to believe that?" He waved the stump of his arm at her. "That Jaina did this?"

Luke simply amping Jaina to a minor degree would be something he wouldn't consider, that's just battle meditation. Nor is the idea that Luke could put his face over her, that's a standard illusion trick that Jacen and Luke have done multiple times with ease across the series. The differentiating factor is Jaina's power. If it were far less than what Caedus has seen/reacted to of Luke, then Caedus would've been much more receptive to the claim that Luke was using an illusion + BM. The fact that Jaina had not only the look, but the power of Luke, is clearly what bewildered him. Throughout the fight Caedus is clearly not under any illusion that this not Luke. He simply commented on how different his fighting style is from usual.

@ILS wrote:And just to add to that... why would Caedus merely reacting to Jaina or Luke for a brief time elevate him above TUF Luke? It's not actually coherently put in the post itself how any of that adds up? You can be a clear inferior to someone, a Gillardian tier beneath them, and still react to them... Dooku and Yoda? Dooku and Anakin? Sidious and Maul, hell, even Savage and to a limited extent Kit Fisto? And again, this is while noting that 1. in Inferno, Luke had Caedus dead to rights within seconds, and 2. amped Jaina was not only easier to anticipate than Luke would be, but Caedus also has a unique ability which, regardless of power, aids one in anticipating the attacks of an opponent.

Jacen has seen/reacted to Luke's full power many times over the course of his life (highlighted above). 

Caedus was hardly defenseless in his fight in Inferno. As Elm's post highlights: 

Luke had the initial element of surprise attacking him suddenly from behind, but Caedus still got several hits in and they were exchanging lightsaber blows, and per C3PO comments to Luke in Invincible: "the last time you two fought, you were forced to spend your nights in the bacta tank for an entire week".

He certainly held his own against Luke, and even then this is mitigated by his fight with Luke-amped-Jaina, in which he grows to that level.

I won't comment further on DE Sidious, because it is irrelevant as TUF Luke grows beyond even that.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:06 pm
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@Jacen

Caedus using Aing-Tii to deflect one of Jaina's blows is a permanent part of his skillset. How is this relevant?
If you are going to use reaction speed as a measure for Force power, then having an ability which increases one's reaction speed independently of their Force power is a confounding variable. The Aing-Tii sense would increase Caedus' reaction speed, meanwhile his strength, speed, other senses, and power as a whole would remain the same. I would understand if you were trying to scale purely Caedus' reaction speed, as it is indeed one of his most notable qualities, but that doesn't seem to be all you want to accomplish.

The argument isn't about how Jaina is exactly 100% of LotF Luke, but rather whether she was on par with what Caedus had seen of Luke's power.
Indeed. And now that I have given you a thorough breakdown on why, I think, Jaina actually being as effective as Luke himself, as in, the Luke Caedus has experienced for himself, is very unlikely, we can further dip into what you're asking now: if Caedus was convinced that Jaina was Luke, does that mean she was as good as him? Well, I'll offer this: so far, Caedus' experiences with Luke have been extremely poor. Luke fucking up his ship in Revelations, pinning him to a chair and then imbuing that chair with so much energy Caedus still couldn't move as Luke strolled out of the place with no visible effort shown throughout, being dead to rights within seconds of fighting Luke in Inferno and, after getting a second chance to fight back, and despite benefiting from a litany of environmental circumstances that disproportionately affected Luke such as old injuries flaring up and Luke spending much more of the fight poisoned than Caedus himself, he was still taking far more hits from Luke than he was dishing out, and ending up in a much worse state than him after. So... pretty shit track record.

In contrast, when he fights Juke, he ends up fighting much more competitively, in spite of a wounded shoulder and Juke enlisting the aid and temporary distraction of a squad of shooters before she went into the fight proper. Caedus goes as far as being able to bury Juke under a Mandalorian corpse and keep her there, pinned, for some time. He does lose an arm, but only through the underhanded tactics I elaborated on earlier which have little to do with raw power. So, point being? The evidence suggests that Jaina has actually performed much worse than Luke has ever performed against Caedus, indeed, I really cannot imagine Luke getting the drop on Caedus as thoroughly as Jaina did here, only to end up smashed and pinned underneath a Mandalorian corpse... now, your main point of contention is that Caedus has seen Luke at certain points in time, such as TUF, and now fighting Jaina, is convinced that she is Luke. You then draw the conclusion that therefore, Jaina must be at least as powerful as Luke was in every instance Caedus has seen him fighting, such as TUF. But... did it ever occur to you that Caedus could be taking TUF into account without believing that Luke (Jaina) is, at that precise moment, fighting on par with his TUF self? For example, does Caedus assume when he is fighting Luke in Inferno that he is fighting an equal of TUF Luke? No. He believes he is fighting Luke, certainly, but that hardly requires Luke to be in the same stupendously heightened state of power and focus as he had attained in TUF.

The same can be said of the Juke fight. Luke, like anyone else, can fluctuate wildly, and Caedus can take such fluctuations into account while still believing he is fighting the same man. As I pointed out, Jaina is not the fighter Luke is, she has to use several underhanded and brutal tactics to even the odds, and even in spite of this, Caedus does better against her than he ever did against Luke.

TL;DR: Caedus can observe TUF Luke's power, then fight Luke at a different time, under a different circumstance, where he is not as fast or powerful, and still come away believing he fought the real Luke. The same principle is true of amped-Jaina-Luke, and thus all we can really do is use reason and evidence to deduce whether she really was as fast and powerful as TUF Luke or even Inferno Luke, and based on all the evidence I can see, she is markedly inferior to Luke and only partially makes up for this with the use of underhanded tactics like extra shooters injuring Caedus, an extra weapon, a brutal new fighting style, and so on. And just to reiterate, seeing as reaction speed is the metric you are using, this is marred even more by the fact that Caedus' reaction speed is aided by an ability which is independent of his power and all of his other attributes, meaning, his reactions are likely better than his other abilities. Both amped Jaina and Caedus egregiously punch above their weight class in any comparison involving Luke thanks to a myriad of factors that have nothing to do with Force power.

Here are Jacen's actual musings over Luke-amped-Jaina's fighting style:

Eager as he was to be rid of Luke, Caedus was also suspicious. His uncle had been using a new fighting style, one that he had never taught his students at the Jedi academy-one that he had never, as far as Caedus knew, used on anyone who had survived to describe it. The style was essentially conservative, brutal, and ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering it-and not all that tricky.

Caedus actually thinks very highly of "his" new fighting style. Not a "Why is Luke using this terrible form? Gosh he is so uncoordinated!."
"not all that tricky" - hence his ability to repeatedly anticipate Jaina, something he could never do against Luke himself. So you haven't really addressed the paragraph you responded to.

Throughout their fight, Caedus is fully under the impression that this is indeed Luke. When the possibility of it being Jaina came up, here is how Caedus replied:
That Caedus was fooled into thinking he fought Luke does not necessitate that Jaina was fighting at TUF Luke or Inferno Luke's levels... it merely necessitates that Caedus is tricked into thinking as much. Caedus, better than you or I, understands that power fluctuates from time to time, fight to fight and circumstance to circumstance, and can reconcile inconsistent performances with such a reality check.

Luke simply amping Jaina to a minor degree would be something he wouldn't consider, that's just battle meditation. Nor is the idea that Luke could put his face over her, that's a standard illusion trick that Jacen and Luke have done multiple times with ease across the series. The differentiating factor is Jaina's power. If it were far less than what Caedus has seen/reacted to of Luke, then Caedus would've been much more receptive to the claim that Luke was using an illusion + BM. The fact that Jaina had not only the look, but the power of Luke, is clearly what bewildered him. Throughout the fight Caedus is clearly not under any illusion that this not Luke. He simply commented on how different his fighting style is from usual.
And I indeed agreed with you that Jaina's raw power had been boosted to an extreme degree. However, the fact Caedus not only notices differences, but notices the key differences which were what allowed Jaina to do as well as she did at all (her new fighting style and ambush tactics) does not help your case that he actually fought a Luke level opponent, because these differences he notices are not related to power. And it also hurts your case because Caedus did far better here than he ever has against Luke, and the most dramatic variable that has changed is, surprise, that he is not fighting Luke but Jaina instead.

I mean, it's not hard to imagine how Caedus was fooled, is it? Jaina is rushing him with enhanced physical stats and a brutal, efficient fighting style; Caedus could imagine Luke doing such a thing, even if it was less effective than tactics Luke had used in the past. It's not exactly an Oscar winning performance, it's a pretty simple act she's putting on, and easily believable. Caedus can be fooled into thinking he's fighting Luke even if the Luke in question is performing worse than usual due to a shift in fighting style, and this simply tarnishes all credibility around the idea that amped Jaina was Inferno or TUF level.

Jacen has seen/reacted to Luke's full power many times over the course of his life (highlighted above).

Caedus was hardly defenseless in his fight in Inferno. As Elm's post highlights:

Luke had the initial element of surprise attacking him suddenly from behind, but Caedus still got several hits in and they were exchanging lightsaber blows, and per C3PO comments to Luke in Invincible: "the last time you two fought, you were forced to spend your nights in the bacta tank for an entire week".

He certainly held his own against Luke, and even then this is mitigated by his fight with Luke-amped-Jaina, in which he grows to that level.

I won't comment further on DE Sidious, because it is irrelevant as TUF Luke grows beyond even that.
This isn't a coherent refutation of the bulk of the points raised in my last post, namely, the confounding variables that disrupt your reaction-power scaling, and the ability of inferiors to react to their, sometimes vast, superiors for even more blows than Caedus was able to react to from Luke before being dead to rights. So yeah, this wonky scaling chain does not at all allow Caedus to leech off of Luke's feats in TUF, DE or even Inferno.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:49 pm
caedus after a hard fight
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:14 am
Probably Krayt.

@ILS: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt 1289255181 I made many of those same arguments when also discussing reaction scaling. As Ziggy's done well to point out, Luke's hardly the most stable anchor to pin a character to. Though I think we have extra-compelling evidence that he brought all the goods to bear against Nyax and Unu, most evidence points to the contrary for Juke.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:42 am
Caedus hasn't really been impressive for his raw power historically anyway. It's all of the unconventional powers he knows, pain tolerance and ability to use the environment and think on his feet that has let him last against Luke. He might be marginally stronger than Dooku.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:41 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Indeed. And now that I have given you a thorough breakdown on why, I think, Jaina actually being as effective as Luke himself, as in, the Luke Caedus has experienced for himself, is very unlikely, we can further dip into what you're asking now: if Caedus was convinced that Jaina was Luke, does that mean she was as good as him? Well, I'll offer this: so far, Caedus' experiences with Luke have been extremely poor. Luke fucking up his ship in Revelations, pinning him to a chair and then imbuing that chair with so much energy Caedus still couldn't move as Luke strolled out of the place with no visible effort shown throughout, being dead to rights within seconds of fighting Luke in Inferno and, after getting a second chance to fight back, and despite benefiting from a litany of environmental circumstances that disproportionately affected Luke such as old injuries flaring up and Luke spending much more of the fight poisoned than Caedus himself, he was still taking far more hits from Luke than he was dishing out, and ending up in a much worse state than him after. So... pretty shit track record.

There are many problems with examples you give. Let's start off with the Inferno fight, in which Caedus was vastly pre-prime. 1. Luke gets the element of suprise, and Caedus reacts in a split second to Luke, if he reacted even a split second later, he would've been chopped up. 2. They were still exchanging for a time, and Caedus even got a couple environmental + lightsaber hits on Luke, attacking at his previous wounds, which reiterates his ability to think on his feet. 3. Luke was grievously injured after this encounter, that C3PO comments: "the last time you two fought, you were forced to spend your nights in the bacta tank for an entire week". So while Caedus (obviously) lost, he was still able to hold his own against a better iteration of Luke then those of/past EoDE. 

In Revelation, their encounter was not a direct ragdoll, as in Luke did not ragdoll Caedus directly, only his starfighter. While Caedus could not stop him, Luke says: 


"Try-ahh." Caedus struggled to correct the StealthX as the damaged starboard wing cannon broke away. The escaping vapor was speckled with round droplets now. "Did you do that?"

Chunkk. The port cannon ripped free.

"You could retaliate, "said Luke, "and we'll both end up dead. Come about and head back toward Fondor."

 In other words, Caedus could've done the same thing to Luke's ship as Luke has done to his. This is not analogous of a ragdoll. 

Also something to note for both of these encounters/exchanges, Caedus was pre-prime in both of these since they take place before Invincible. A common theme in LotF is that Jacen/Caedus continually grows over the course of the series, right up until/during Invincible. I won't bother grabbing the dozens of growth quotes and power ups that Caedus attains. 

And the main point of bringing up these fights/exchanges is to determine that Caedus knows Luke well enough to know exactly how he fights, and knows (relatively) how powerful he is in combat. So Caedus not being able to tell Juke was not actually Luke speaks volumes to how powerful Juke actually was. 

In contrast, when he fights Juke, he ends up fighting much more competitively, in spite of a wounded shoulder and Juke enlisting the aid and temporary distraction of a squad of shooters before she went into the fight proper. Caedus goes as far as being able to bury Juke under a Mandalorian corpse and keep her there, pinned, for some time. He does lose an arm, but only through the underhanded tactics I elaborated on earlier which have little to do with raw power. So, point being? The evidence suggests that Jaina has actually performed much worse than Luke has ever performed against Caedus, indeed, I really cannot imagine Luke getting the drop on Caedus as thoroughly as Jaina did here, only to end up smashed and pinned underneath a Mandalorian corpse... now, your main point of contention is that Caedus has seen Luke at certain points in time, such as TUF, and now fighting Jaina, is convinced that she is Luke. You then draw the conclusion that therefore, Jaina must be at least as powerful as Luke was in every instance Caedus has seen him fighting, such as TUF. But... did it ever occur to you that Caedus could be taking TUF into account without believing that Luke (Jaina) is, at that precise moment, fighting on par with his TUF self? For example, does Caedus assume when he is fighting Luke in Inferno that he is fighting an equal of TUF Luke? No. He believes he is fighting Luke, certainly, but that hardly requires Luke to be in the same stupendously heightened state of power and focus as he had attained in TUF.

The main problem is that you keep bringing up Caedus' previous exchanges to quantify his Juke exchange, and are assuming he underwent absolutely no growth over the course of LotF, which is just plain wrong. Going through and noting Caedus' advantages whilst leaving out Jaina's initial advantage on Caedus doesn't help your case and only goes to show how well Caedus performed against Juke despite her being a (roughly) Luke level opponent. Using Jacen reaction scaling, Caedus has seen Luke at the height of TUF, and through their many contentions. Caedus not being able to know it was Juke even after he pondered deeply on the matter goes to show that Juke is similar to previous iterations of Luke, and as I brought up earlier, when the possibility of Juke being Jaina came up, Caedus was in pure astonishment that she could even fight at the caliber that she did. 

As for Inferno or Revelation Luke not being anywhere near TUF Luke, it's said that in Revelation that Luke was using his "full powers".

The same can be said of the Juke fight. Luke, like anyone else, can fluctuate wildly, and Caedus can take such fluctuations into account while still believing he is fighting the same man. As I pointed out, Jaina is not the fighter Luke is, she has to use several underhanded and brutal tactics to even the odds, and even in spite of this, Caedus does better against her than he ever did against Luke.

Caedus' reactions to the fight are not indicative that Juke's power levels were "fluctuating wildly" compared to Luke's iterations. Again, Caedus would have sensed it wasn't actually Luke based on his numerous contentions with the real Luke. Mid-fight and when pondering deeply on it, he comes to the conclusion it was the real Luke, and doesn't have any (real) suspicions until Jaina is mentioned again. 

Bringing up Caedus' other contentions with Luke in an attempt to quantify the Juke performance assumes that Caedus went under absolutely zero growth over the course of their contentions. Also, commenting on how the fight actually played out in Caedus' favor only hurts the case of Caedus not growing to (rougly) the level of Luke. 

TL;DR: Caedus can observe TUF Luke's power, then fight Luke at a different time, under a different circumstance, where he is not as fast or powerful, and still come away believing he fought the real Luke.

This Caedus has done illusion tricks with ease and knows exactly how to detect his own trick. Like I've noted earlier, it was Juke's power that clearly perplexed Caedus. He clearly saw that he was fighting someone of Luke's level (and why wouldn't Luke amp Jaina to that level if the point is to 1) give her the best chance of victory and 2) to convince Caedus that it was actually Luke?).

The same principle is true of amped-Jaina-Luke, and thus all we can really do is use reason and evidence to deduce whether she really was as fast and powerful as TUF Luke or even Inferno Luke, and based on all the evidence I can see, she is markedly inferior to Luke and only partially makes up for this with the use of underhanded tactics like extra shooters injuring Caedus, an extra weapon, a brutal new fighting style, and so on.

Commenting on the specifics of Jaina's base fighting style was something that Caedus has already noted and he explains that it was a new fighting style. He still found no troubles deducing it was Luke due to Juke's force power being relative to Luke. 

And just to reiterate, seeing as reaction speed is the metric you are using, this is marred even more by the fact that Caedus' reaction speed is aided by an ability which is independent of his power and all of his other attributes, meaning, his reactions are likely better than his other abilities. Both amped Jaina and Caedus egregiously punch above their weight class in any comparison involving Luke thanks to a myriad of factors that have nothing to do with Force power.

I think you are confusing Jacen reaction scaling. Jacen reaction scaling simply mens that Jacen has seen and reacted to Luke's previous uses of power, which includes Inferno, TUF, and Revalation, the latter 2 being showings of full power. Jacen reaction scaling means simply he has seen Luke at this height of power and is based on that, he knows how Luke is generally supposed to be in combative situations, which includes Jacen knowing about his force power, abilities, lightsaber combat, and more. I am not talking about Jacen's reaction speed at all. 

Moreover, since Jacen is able to come to the conclusion that Juke is Luke, after seeing Luke at the height of his powers, and constantly fighting him over the course of LotF, its safe to assume the disparity of Juke from other iterations of Luke doesn't exist, or is very minimal. The only thing that Caedus finds weird about Juke is her unorthodox fighting style, in which Caedus thinks highly of her fighting style. 

"not all that tricky" - hence his ability to repeatedly anticipate Jaina, something he could never do against Luke himself. So you haven't really addressed the paragraph you responded to.

Caedus explicitly notes how brutal and effective Juke's fighting style is, it being "not all that tricky" is irrelevant. And I addressed that commenting the specifics of Juke's form is irrelevant, as it's Juke's power that leads Caedus to believe Juke is Luke. Caedus quickly dismisses this notion of Juke's unorthodox fighting style being an indicator that it wasn't actually Luke, even after pondering on it extensively. 

That Caedus was fooled into thinking he fought Luke does not necessitate that Jaina was fighting at TUF Luke or Inferno Luke's levels... it merely necessitates that Caedus is tricked into thinking as much. Caedus, better than you or I, understands that power fluctuates from time to time, fight to fight and circumstance to circumstance, and can reconcile inconsistent performances with such a reality check.

I mean, it's not hard to imagine how Caedus was fooled, is it? Jaina is rushing him with enhanced physical stats and a brutal, efficient fighting style; Caedus could imagine Luke doing such a thing, even if it was less effective than tactics Luke had used in the past. It's not exactly an Oscar winning performance, it's a pretty simple act she's putting on, and easily believable. Caedus can be fooled into thinking he's fighting Luke even if the Luke in question is performing worse than usual due to a shift in fighting style, and this simply tarnishes all credibility around the idea that amped Jaina was Inferno or TUF level.

Caedus is portrayed as being one of the most intelligent characters in the mythos... why would he be tricked so easily into believing Juke was Luke and Juke not being on the same power level as Luke? That simply does not make sense. You might say that he's caught up in the moment, but then afterwards, he has time to think and the idea that it could've been an illusion is brought up to him. Of course, Caedus is well aware that Luke can pull off super-illusions, he just had it done to him in Revelation. But he dismisses that possibility even though nobody can figure out how Luke got there. So it begs the question, why did Caedus dismiss it so easily? This is the same Caedus who saw Luke pull of an entire illusory fleet out of thin air.  Jacen explicitly notes Jaina's performance against him as a reason to not believe that it was Jaina, which means it was ultimately Juke's power that was the main indicator that Juke is similar to Luke.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:48 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
TL;DR: 

- He sees Luke in TUF. Indeed, Luke's unleashing in TUF was largely inspired by a conversation with Jacen where Jacen encourages him to use it.
- He experienced UnuThul, and knows that Luke defeated him.
- He is astonished by Luke's ability to pin him in Inferno, suggesting that that is >= TUF levels.
- When his starfighter is TK'd by Luke in Revelation, he notes that he realizes just how much power Luke can generate, suggesting that that is >= TUF levels (at the least, if Jacen just assumes zero growth from Luke). He likewise thinks he's seen the full extent of Luke's powers when he makes the illusory fleet.

So, he has generally seen more of Luke's power than perhaps any other character. So it begs the question, why did Caedus believe Juke was actually Luke, even after pondering on it for days after? It's simply because Juke was operating at a power level Caedus has been familiar with, that being Luke's own power level. The only differences is in Juke's fighting style, in which Caedus already notes and dismisses.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:48 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@Jacen


There are many problems with examples you give. Let's start off with the Inferno fight, in which Caedus was vastly pre-prime. 1. Luke gets the element of suprise, and Caedus reacts in a split second to Luke, if he reacted even a split second later, he would've been chopped up. 2. They were still exchanging for a time, and Caedus even got a couple environmental + lightsaber hits on Luke, attacking at his previous wounds, which reiterates his ability to think on his feet. 3. Luke was grievously injured after this encounter, that C3PO comments: "the last time you two fought, you were forced to spend your nights in the bacta tank for an entire week". So while Caedus (obviously) lost, he was still able to hold his own against a better iteration of Luke then those of/past EoDE.
You didn't respond to the chair pinning. As for Inferno, you haven't addressed my point about Luke having Caedus dead to rights in seconds had he not TK pulled himself towards a curtain, and have handwaved the extraneous circumstances I pointed out for why Luke became as injured as he was and instead mentioned the fact they both went into a bacta tank. That's not a counter. If boxer 1 beats the shit out of boxer 2, wins the match, and then boxer 2 clubs boxer 1 and breaks his jaw during the post-fight interview, just quoting a bystander who said "Yeah, well, looks like they both spent a night in the hospital!" doesn't actually mean they had a good fight lmao. You've read the fight, I've read the fight, it's been analysed to death, so I'm not going to post every individual quote for you - believe what you like about Inferno.


Also something to note for both of these encounters/exchanges, Caedus was pre-prime in both of these since they take place before Invincible. A common theme in LotF is that Jacen/Caedus continually grows over the course of the series, right up until/during Invincible. I won't bother grabbing the dozens of growth quotes and power ups that Caedus attains.

And the main point of bringing up these fights/exchanges is to determine that Caedus knows Luke well enough to know exactly how he fights, and knows (relatively) how powerful he is in combat. So Caedus not being able to tell Juke was not actually Luke speaks volumes to how powerful Juke actually was.
Okay, but I'm not really convinced that Caedus "growing in power" will do much other than extend the asskicking Luke gave him in Inferno by a matter of seconds. If you feel you can quantify it with some precision, I'm all ears.


The main problem is that you keep bringing up Caedus' previous exchanges to quantify his Juke exchange, and are assuming he underwent absolutely no growth over the course of LotF, which is just plain wrong. Going through and noting Caedus' advantages whilst leaving out Jaina's initial advantage on Caedus doesn't help your case and only goes to show how well Caedus performed against Juke despite her being a (roughly) Luke level opponent.
Can you prove exactly how much Caedus grew? Also, I'm not aware of what advantage of Juke's I left out? I mentioned her underhanded tactics, use of shooters (one of whom injured Caedus' shoulder), her getting the jump on him before he could recover from another fight properly, her use of the dagger? Is there something else? Anyway, we've kind of trailed away from my point here: as I mentioned, Jaina is not nearly as skilled as Luke, her connection to the Force isn't as skillful or deep, and so on. She mostly just got a boost in raw power and used it with her own skill level. I might even be willing to agree that Juke was fighting at the same power level as previous versions of Luke despite it not really being a requirement for Caedus to be fooled. The problem is, Caedus flat out notes that Juke's fighting style is "not all that tricky" to deal with - that it's about being direct and brutal and efficient. He then repeatedly anticipates her moves despite her having several extraneous advantages going into the fight, thanks in part to his Aing Tii fighting sense. So it's marred on both ends: Jaina is getting worse results than Luke despite using all of these underhanded tactics, and Caedus is explicitly able to react to her by using a skill that is not related to raw power. In other words, Jaina's using (lets say) the same amount of power as Luke in a much cruder and less effective way than the real thing, and Caedus is only doing as well as he is against her thanks to factors that aren't power related - his fighting sense and sheer creativity with the environment (the Mando corpse). What you have is a sub-Luke fighter being bitched out by someone not because they are similarly powerful, but just much better at thinking on their feet. Nobody here is truly emulating Luke in any way.


As for Inferno or Revelation Luke not being anywhere near TUF Luke, it's said that in Revelation that Luke was using his "full powers".
I mean that's fine, but I think Caedus is capable of understanding context, right? Luke can do something at say 50% of his power, but something that is very impressive for being at 50%, and Caedus can say "shit thats amazing", while also being capable of understanding "obviously he's not fighting at the level where he looked like he was wielding 20 lightsaber blades and bitched out like 8 Vong slayers at the same time, but for the power level he was at, that was great". For series' like NJO, LotF, etc that are often so crucially predicated on context, it seems odd that there is such a concerted attempt to reduce context in order to make everything equatable.


Also, commenting on how the fight actually played out in Caedus' favor only hurts the case of Caedus not growing to (rougly) the level of Luke.
Not if your entire case rests on the idea that he did so by merit of his Force power, when in reality, it was due to non-power related factors like creativity and his Aing Tii fighting sense.


Commenting on the specifics of Jaina's base fighting style was something that Caedus has already noted and he explains that it was a new fighting style. He still found no troubles deducing it was Luke due to Juke's force power being relative to Luke.
Yes, and again, he didn't think this fighting style was terribly tricky. So at best we're dealing with someone whose raw power is convincing enough to trick Caedus into thinking he's fighting Luke but who is painfully predictable and thus an easier fight than the real thing. That hurts your case that if Caedus was actually fighting Luke he would be able to do as well. Moreover, it's important to reiterate that since your entire case rests on reacting, not, say, a telekinetic or physical struggle, that there's no reason to think Caedus merely reacting to Juke makes him similarly powerful when much weaker opponents have reacted just as well to their vast superiors, and that's without Caedus' creativity or fighting sense to aid them. You're conflating apples and oranges.


I think you are confusing Jacen reaction scaling. Jacen reaction scaling simply mens that Jacen has seen and reacted to Luke's previous uses of power, which includes Inferno, TUF, and Revalation, the latter 2 being showings of full power. Jacen reaction scaling means simply he has seen Luke at this height of power and is based on that, he knows how Luke is generally supposed to be in combative situations, which includes Jacen knowing about his force power, abilities, lightsaber combat, and more. I am not talking about Jacen's reaction speed at all.

Moreover, since Jacen is able to come to the conclusion that Juke is Luke, after seeing Luke at the height of his powers, and constantly fighting him over the course of LotF, its safe to assume the disparity of Juke from other iterations of Luke doesn't exist, or is very minimal. The only thing that Caedus finds weird about Juke is her unorthodox fighting style, in which Caedus thinks highly of her fighting style.
I see what you meant now. Although the funny thing is it doesn't actually change my case, because from what I gather, the impressive thing about Caedus' showings versus Luke and Juke is his ability to react to their blows, right? Is there some other metric you haven't mentioned or that I have glossed over? Is it not Caedus' ability to react to Juke that you are drawing attention to? Bearing in mind you are saying that Caedus is "roughly Luke's level" based on this argument, as in, Luke's level of Force power or otherwise his combat effectiveness. From what I gather, you are using his ability to react to claim he is a Luke-level fighter or thereabouts.


Caedus explicitly notes how brutal and effective Juke's fighting style is, it being "not all that tricky" is irrelevant. And I addressed that commenting the specifics of Juke's form is irrelevant, as it's Juke's power that leads Caedus to believe Juke is Luke. Caedus quickly dismisses this notion of Juke's unorthodox fighting style being an indicator that it wasn't actually Luke, even after pondering on it extensively.
Your entire argument is predicated on Caedus fighting a Luke level opponent, so if said opponent is using a less effective fighting style than the real Luke, and Caedus is able to do better because of this, then your argument crumbles. Like: we're talking about a guy who is practically renowned for his creativity, ability to think on his feet etc, combined with a specific, esoteric skill that helps him to anticipate his opponents, and you are putting him up against someone who is using a fighting style that is so straight forward and easy to anticipate that it's actually described as unorthodox because of how simple it is. I mean, the reason I think Caedus was convinced was because it's plausible that Luke himself could choose to do this, but seeing as the Luke we all know and love is a much, much more capable martial artist than Juke, then it really damages your case that Caedus fought a Luke leveller and is one himself.

So, he has generally seen more of Luke's power than perhaps any other character. So it begs the question, why did Caedus believe Juke was actually Luke, even after pondering on it for days after? It's simply because Juke was operating at a power level Caedus has been familiar with, that being Luke's own power level. The only differences is in Juke's fighting style, in which Caedus already notes and dismisses.
After discussing it with you, I'm perfectly willing to believe Jaina was summoning an amount of raw power similar to some past versions of Luke. I imagine Caedus would even sense this, right? But like I've said, the key issue here seems to be that Jaina is nowhere near as skilled, masterful or even experienced as Luke himself at using that kind of power, and so is less effective with it. Think about it: take Luke's power level from TUF and dump it into, say, Darth Maul's body, and say "go storm the citadel" - as much as I wank Maul, I find it hard to believe he would be as good as Luke himself at using his power. The simple fact alone is one would need to acclimate to that power level before they can control it properly, even if they were equally skilled to Luke, and Jaina isn't.

Just as a sidenote, I've thought about something else and this conversation helped me solidify my thoughts on it. I think there's quite a few examples in the mythos of times where a character actually doesn't grow in power at all, but simply becomes better at using their power, or even a specific Force power. The two overlap a lot, as practicing with the Force tends to make you more powerful, but there is also something to be said for practice itself: take Sidious with his Force storm. I can imagine that even if Sidious stayed at the same power level, the version of him that practiced Force storm for 10 years would be able to make a much bigger and more destructive one than the Sidious who only practiced for one year. This isn't directly related to the debate but it's just something I thought of.
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:02 pm
@ILS

Why haven't you trolled the Jacen fanboys with this yet?

Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.
—Star Wars Insider #113
Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt 2960029119 Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt 4037459623 Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt 2266747095
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:25 am
You didn't respond to the chair pinning. As for Inferno, you haven't addressed my point about Luke having Caedus dead to rights in seconds had he not TK pulled himself towards a curtain, and have handwaved the extraneous circumstances I pointed out for why Luke became as injured as he was and instead mentioned the fact they both went into a bacta tank. That's not a counter. If boxer 1 beats the shit out of boxer 2, wins the match, and then boxer 2 clubs boxer 1 and breaks his jaw during the post-fight interview, just quoting a bystander who said "Yeah, well, looks like they both spent a night in the hospital!" doesn't actually mean they had a good fight lmao. You've read the fight, I've read the fight, it's been analysed to death, so I'm not going to post every individual quote for you - believe what you like about Inferno.

I've never claimed that a pre-prime Caedus could contend with Luke in a TK bout lol. 

I agree, the fight in Inferno was heavily one sided in the favor of Luke, but to handwave the exchange as "he just stomped him lol" isn't the correct way to describe what went down. As I've pointed out, the fact that Luke had to go into the bacta tank for a week after the exchange proves how good Caedus faired in that confrontation. But to be clear, I do not think Caedus won that confrontation. 

The point of bringing Inferno into the mix was to prove that Caedus has witnessed and seen firsthand how Luke operates in a real lightsaber duel, and after this he literally studies his uncle in an effort to prove himself in their next confrontation, which helps Jacen reaction scaling. 

Okay, but I'm not really convinced that Caedus "growing in power" will do much other than extend the asskicking Luke gave him in Inferno by a matter of seconds. If you feel you can quantify it with some precision, I'm all ears.

Here are some quotes I've gathered-

Jacen was literally growing closer to Luke by the day, which directly establishes daily growth, which is something Luke himself sensed as early as Bloodlines: 

And he was growing closer to Luke's strength by the day.

Luke realized Jacen's Force skills seemed to be getting stronger and more subtle every day, and he felt uneasy.

Jacen receives another substantial boost that increases his force power:

Jacen feels his power in the dark side swell, unlocking new powers, including an unparalleled ability to command and coordinate fighting forces as the former Emperor once did. Fully committed to the Sith path, Jacen assumes the title Darth Caedus.
...
Jacen has reached a threshold in his Sith potential. He has sacrificed a loved one and the bond of trust
between himself and Ben. Lumiya senses this shift in power and decides a further sacrifice is needed to
cement Jacen’s rule.

As you know, Caedus definitely loses the fight against Luke and it isn't really close. But after that, Caedus exclaims:

But he was still the best lightsaber swordsman around-excepting possibly Luke, perhaps the best there ever had been.

He wouldn't just claim this without consideration of Luke's own lightsaber abilities, as he experienced/contended with him in a duel before in Inferno, and was studying how to defeat Luke if the chance came up again. This is also further corroborated by the daily growth established as early as Bloodlines, in which he was already growing closer to Luke. 

Also, I'm not aware of what advantage of Juke's I left out? I mentioned her underhanded tactics, use of shooters (one of whom injured Caedus' shoulder), her getting the jump on him before he could recover from another fight properly, her use of the dagger? Is there something else?

Juke getting the jump on Caedus is what I meant, but you seem to have pointed that out later on. 

Anyway, we've kind of trailed away from my point here: as I mentioned, Jaina is not nearly as skilled as Luke, her connection to the Force isn't as skillful or deep, and so on. She mostly just got a boost in raw power and used it with her own skill level. I might even be willing to agree that Juke was fighting at the same power level as previous versions of Luke despite it not really being a requirement for Caedus to be fooled. The problem is, Caedus flat out notes that Juke's fighting style is "not all that tricky" to deal with - that it's about being direct and brutal and efficient. 

You are misinterpreting Caedus' words. He claims Juke's lightsaber style itself is "not all that tricky" to use, not that it is "not all that tricky" for Caedus to deal with/defend against, meaning that even if the lightsaber style was a simpler one of the one normal Luke uses, but it's still an effective, brutal, and ruthless lightsaber style. 

Here is the quote for reference: 

Eager as he was to be rid of Luke, Caedus was also suspicious. His uncle had been using a new fighting style, one that he had never taught his students at the Jedi academy-one that he had never, as far as Caedus knew, used on anyone who had survived to describe it. The style was essentially conservative, brutal, and ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering it-and not all that tricky.

He then repeatedly anticipates her moves despite her having several extraneous advantages going into the fight, thanks in part to his Aing Tii fighting sense. So it's marred on both ends: Jaina is getting worse results than Luke despite using all of these underhanded tactics, and Caedus is explicitly able to react to her by using a skill that is not related to raw power. In other words, Jaina's using (lets say) the same amount of power as Luke in a much cruder and less effective way than the real thing, and Caedus is only doing as well as he is against her thanks to factors that aren't power related - his fighting sense and sheer creativity with the environment (the Mando corpse). What you have is a sub-Luke fighter being bitched out by someone not because they are similarly powerful, but just much better at thinking on their feet. Nobody here is truly emulating Luke in any way.

You are dabbling more into the speculative side. As I've explained, the only reason Caedus had reason to believe Juke was in actuality Luke was because of how powerful she was in the force, you explaining that Juke can't access all of Luke's power in the force is based on... nothing. The only explanation is that Caedus grew in force power up until Invincible, which I backed that claim up above. And I've never contested the idea that Caedus having Aing-Tii fighting sense, an incredible damage soak, and being overall better at improvising in situations doesn't make it a better game for Caedus, and able to compete more directly with Juke. In actuality, you listing those things helps my case out. 

I mean that's fine, but I think Caedus is capable of understanding context, right? Luke can do something at say 50% of his power, but something that is very impressive for being at 50%, and Caedus can say "shit thats amazing", while also being capable of understanding "obviously he's not fighting at the level where he looked like he was wielding 20 lightsaber blades and bitched out like 8 Vong slayers at the same time, but for the power level he was at, that was great". For series' like NJO, LotF, etc that are often so crucially predicated on context, it seems odd that there is such a concerted attempt to reduce context in order to make everything equatable.

More quotes:

Luke was the greatest Jedi Master, and he'd just exposed the absolute limits of his powers, a suicidal gamble in any war.

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest.

These are both from Revelations. Again, I fail to see why LotF would include two quotes in the same book explaining he used his full powers, but you claim they didn't mean to say he actually uses his full powers? That seems like a cop-out lol. Anyways, the point of including these quotes was for you to know that Caedus knows how powerful Luke is. For Caedus to be fooled into believing Juke was Luke, the power had to be there. The argument that Juke cannot access Luke's full power is predicates on 0 evidence, and if Juke couldn't access said power, Caedus would've definitely known. 

Not if your entire case rests on the idea that he did so by merit of his Force power, when in reality, it was due to non-power related factors like creativity and his Aing Tii fighting sense.

The thing is the Aing Tii fighting sense is coupled in with the fact that: 

That brought Caedus's gaze snapping back toward her, and Jaina realized she might have overplayed her hand. She still had both arms, but the fact that her brother remained standing at all proved how much greater his Force powers were than her own. She tossed the beskad aside and summoned a fallen stormtrooper's power blaster to hand.

So, Juke admits Caedus' powers are greater than her own, despite the fact that Juke practically felt "Invincible"  Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt 3344068304  :

Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything.

So not only were Caedus' force abilities greater than Juke's, but on top of that he was using Aing-Tii fighting senses to bulster his abilities even further. Note, the passage simply says he uses the Aing-Tii fighting senses, not that he explicitly has to. Think of it as the cherry on top of his masterful force abilities.

Yes, and again, he didn't think this fighting style was terribly tricky. So at best we're dealing with someone whose raw power is convincing enough to trick Caedus into thinking he's fighting Luke but who is painfully predictable and thus an easier fight than the real thing. That hurts your case that if Caedus was actually fighting Luke he would be able to do as well.

Again, you are misinterpreting Caedus' thoughts on Juke that I pointed out above.

I see what you meant now. Although the funny thing is it doesn't actually change my case, because from what I gather, the impressive thing about Caedus' showings versus Luke and Juke is his ability to react to their blows, right? Is there some other metric you haven't mentioned or that I have glossed over? Is it not Caedus' ability to react to Juke that you are drawing attention to? Bearing in mind you are saying that Caedus is "roughly Luke's level" based on this argument, as in, Luke's level of Force power or otherwise his combat effectiveness. From what I gather, you are using his ability to react to claim he is a Luke-level fighter or thereabouts.

To be clear, I don't think Juke is 100% of Luke, nor does it need to be anyways. She just is superior to previous iterations of Luke, which is proven by Jacen reaction scaling. 

Your entire argument is predicated on Caedus fighting a Luke level opponent, so if said opponent is using a less effective fighting style than the real Luke, and Caedus is able to do better because of this, then your argument crumbles. Like: we're talking about a guy who is practically renowned for his creativity, ability to think on his feet etc, combined with a specific, esoteric skill that helps him to anticipate his opponents, and you are putting him up against someone who is using a fighting style that is so straight forward and easy to anticipate that it's actually described as unorthodox because of how simple it is. I mean, the reason I think Caedus was convinced was because it's plausible that Luke himself could choose to do this, but seeing as the Luke we all know and love is a much, much more capable martial artist than Juke, then it really damages your case that Caedus fought a Luke leveller and is one himself.

This is basically a TL;DR of what I've responded to above, so see that.

After discussing it with you, I'm perfectly willing to believe Jaina was summoning an amount of raw power similar to some past versions of Luke. I imagine Caedus would even sense this, right? But like I've said, the key issue here seems to be that Jaina is nowhere near as skilled, masterful or even experienced as Luke himself at using that kind of power, and so is less effective with it. Think about it: take Luke's power level from TUF and dump it into, say, Darth Maul's body, and say "go storm the citadel" - as much as I wank Maul, I find it hard to believe he would be as good as Luke himself at using his power. The simple fact alone is one would need to acclimate to that power level before they can control it properly, even if they were equally skilled to Luke, and Jaina isn't.

For Caedus to be fooled into believing Juke was Luke, the power had to be there. The argument that Juke cannot access Luke's full power is predicates on 0 evidence and mere speculation, and if Juke couldn't access said power, Caedus would've definitely known due to Jacen reaction scaling and studying Luke extensively to specifically prepare for future duels. 

Just as a sidenote, I've thought about something else and this conversation helped me solidify my thoughts on it. I think there's quite a few examples in the mythos of times where a character actually doesn't grow in power at all, but simply becomes better at using their power, or even a specific Force power. The two overlap a lot, as practicing with the Force tends to make you more powerful, but there is also something to be said for practice itself: take Sidious with his Force storm. I can imagine that even if Sidious stayed at the same power level, the version of him that practiced Force storm for 10 years would be able to make a much bigger and more destructive one than the Sidious who only practiced for one year. This isn't directly related to the debate but it's just something I thought of.

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Shioz
Shioz

Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:04 am
Krayt in all, although I'm not quite sure about sabers.
DarthAnt66
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:10 am
On @ILS' point of dumping Luke's power into Maul/Jaina, note AOTC Anakin has the applicable power of Yoda . . . though never performs that level. Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt 1289255181
Azronger
Azronger
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:10 pm
Bane also took a bit of practice to get the hang of Force lightning when he first learnt it, but I doubt that is reflective of some ultra power growth within like one day.

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ILS
ILS
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Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Krayt

on Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:56 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@Jacen I'm happy to wrap this up soon if you are because I think you've started to talk around my arguments.


I've never claimed that a pre-prime Caedus could contend with Luke in a TK bout lol.
Nor did I claim you did, but you are trying to suggest Caedus is "Luke level" or thereabouts by some meaningful definition. And thus we don't need to get caught up in a game of semantics when you know that I know that you know that I know what you meant.

I agree, the fight in Inferno was heavily one sided in the favor of Luke, but to handwave the exchange as "he just stomped him lol" isn't the correct way to describe what went down. As I've pointed out, the fact that Luke had to go into the bacta tank for a week after the exchange proves how good Caedus faired in that confrontation. But to be clear, I do not think Caedus won that confrontation.
Literally has nothing to do with what I said but okay lol. Again, what's important are the set of circumstances that led to Luke being in the bacta tank, not the mere fact he went into it.

The point of bringing Inferno into the mix was to prove that Caedus has witnessed and seen firsthand how Luke operates in a real lightsaber duel, and after this he literally studies his uncle in an effort to prove himself in their next confrontation, which helps Jacen reaction scaling.
Ok, but Luke kicked his ass in Inferno.

More quotes:

Luke was the greatest Jedi Master, and he'd just exposed the absolute limits of his powers, a suicidal gamble in any war.

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest.

These are both from Revelations. Again, I fail to see why LotF would include two quotes in the same book explaining he used his full powers, but you claim they didn't mean to say he actually uses his full powers?
So, with Revelations being later than Inferno, does this mean that if Caedus "suddenly" understood what Luke's full power looks like that he was not privy to it after the Inferno fight? Again, you're damaging your own case.

You are misinterpreting Caedus' words. He claims Juke's lightsaber style itself is "not all that tricky" to use, not that it is "not all that tricky" for Caedus to deal with/defend against, meaning that even if the lightsaber style was a simpler one of the one normal Luke uses, but it's still an effective, brutal, and ruthless lightsaber style.
The lightsaber style being tricky or not is entirely dependent on context, and the context is Caedus fighting Juke. Caedus can only make a judgement about it insofar as it relates back to himself. What is tricky for someone else might be simple for another. And again, since there are two quotes during the fight that talk about Caedus anticipating Jaina's moves with the fighting sense it seems extremely likely that her using this more simplistic style is making her easier to predict.

You are dabbling more into the speculative side. As I've explained, the only reason Caedus had reason to believe Juke was in actuality Luke was because of how powerful she was in the force, you explaining that Juke can't access all of Luke's power in the force is based on... nothing. The only explanation is that Caedus grew in force power up until Invincible, which I backed that claim up above. And I've never contested the idea that Caedus having Aing-Tii fighting sense, an incredible damage soak, and being overall better at improvising in situations doesn't make it a better game for Caedus, and able to compete more directly with Juke. In actuality, you listing those things helps my case out.
Again, you're not even directly responding to my points anymore. "Juke can't access all of Luke's power in the Force" - I went forward with my argument assuming Juke was as powerful as Luke and still pointed out that she is nowhere near as skilled or experienced as him, and you don't seem to be willing to address this. None of what I've said is speculation. And thanks for agreeing with me that Caedus has numerous attributes which have absolutely nothing to do with sheer Force power - that means you have again damaged your own argument that Caedus' ability to contend with Luke, and thus your argument that he is comparably powerful in a meaningful way, is marred by these attributes. We can perhaps say Caedus punches above his weight through sheer skill and willpower, but you've done nothing to substantiate this on the basis of Force power.

So, Juke admits Caedus' powers are greater than her own, despite the fact that Juke practically felt "Invincible"
So are you arguing Caedus is far more powerful than previous versions of Luke now? Lol. It's more likely that Jaina is comparing her normal power level to Caedus' and is privy to the fact something unusual is happening to her.

For Caedus to be fooled into believing Juke was Luke, the power had to be there. The argument that Juke cannot access Luke's full power is predicates on 0 evidence and mere speculation, and if Juke couldn't access said power, Caedus would've definitely known due to Jacen reaction scaling and studying Luke extensively to specifically prepare for future duels.
It's certainly possible, but Caedus is fallible. However you've abjectly failed to address the points about:

1. Your comparisons being marred by non-Force-power related attributes on both sides.
2. Juke not having anywhere close to Luke's acclimation, experience, skill at this level of Force power - similar to how Anakin has as much power as Yoda by AotC and probably more by RotS but is still below/at best his equal due to being much less skilled at using it.
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