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HellfireUnit
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on February 9th 2020, 4:26 pm
Going for Gethzerion for now. May switch to Darish Vol.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 4:28 pm
yeah, imma go with vol
MasterCilghal
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on February 9th 2020, 4:30 pm
I vote for Cilghal.
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on February 9th 2020, 4:32 pm
Actually I'm recanting my vote. I'm on the fence between Revan and Cilghal.
The Ellimist
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on February 9th 2020, 4:33 pm
@Ziggy wrote:Then I will say this don't have to point out why the discrepancy exists.

That logic can go the other way too: I could posit that Jacen was extremely distracted and caught off guard by Aurra Sing and the threat of his daughter being murdered, so the multitude of distractions made him perform worse. While you may not like this explanation, the discrepancy between his performance against Sing and his performance against not-Luke nonetheless exists.

So then it becomes: which explanation makes more sense? I think "Jacen is concerned for his daughter and the distraction of having to save her hurt him" is more coherent than "Jacen is pathologically delusional about Luke's power for no apparent reason".

Performance in a clean 1 v 1 against a top-tier is a better indicator relative to the tournament than speculating over how relevant various factors such as surprise and defending someone else are.

This still generously assumes two things anyway:

1. That Aurra actually did as well as you say she did (more on that later).
2. That early-LotF Jacen matters to endgame Jacen because you claim Jacen thought he was getting close to Luke in power (when, IIRC, he just said he was getting closer).

And currently this match is Mace or Revans

Well even if you don't accept Jacen, Vol's relativity to Luke seems pretty clear.
The Ellimist
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on February 9th 2020, 4:33 pm
That being said, I vote for Cilghal.
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on February 9th 2020, 4:35 pm
Actually, I’m going Cilghal
Blade_of_Dorin
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on February 9th 2020, 4:36 pm
Mark me down for Mace.
Syndiciate
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on February 9th 2020, 4:38 pm
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I feel the way that we're assessing character's power levels is a little off for this round considering it's stated to be: 

the extent that Darth Malgus would need an amp to defeat them.

But Malgus being a Darksider, the more he is amped, the more a character like Mace would be able to draw off of his opponent's energy due to Vaapad and the way the superconducting loop functions.

The point of this tourney is to get a general consensus of what Force using characters the community view to be the most powerful/best combatants. Due to one unique ability of someone who is usually a Maul/Kenobi level character, if we go by this metric, they may scale to a much higher level than they really have any right being placed. 

I feel as if the standards for how we assess ranking should be altered. I understand the arguments against this as we have used this metric for every ranking thus far, but if we're being honest, the metric of the opponent being an amped Malgus has not really been taken into account. The last round was the first round where such arguments were truly made and I don't think the bar by which we measure being Malgus was a factor that effected the ultimate victor more favorably than it did their opponent.

@Azronger @ILS @The Ellimist


Last edited by Syndiciate on February 9th 2020, 4:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
HellfireUnit
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on February 9th 2020, 4:45 pm
Revenge of the Sith wrote:"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."

Vaapad and superconducting loop has its limits so I don't think it is a hack that we should consider.
Blade_of_Dorin
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on February 9th 2020, 4:47 pm
@Syndiciate I was never really a fan of the metric either, to be honest
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on February 9th 2020, 4:47 pm
It has its limits but even being limited it still puts him vastly above where he would be normally without such an external amp boosting his abilities. 

Again, if the purpose of this tourney is to assess character's general power levels, I don't see how we can justify using this metric.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 4:49 pm
i mean, its limit are higher than a sheev level character, so it could easily make mace sheev++ in power
LSDMB
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on February 9th 2020, 4:51 pm
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@The Ellimist wrote:BTW, it should be noted that in the fight between pre-prime Jacen and Kyle + 3 knights in Fury:

Ten seconds.
Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.
They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me.

^ would have ended in a little over 10 seconds (several sentences and events later it's at 15 seconds).
I do think it's worth noting though that a team dynamic obviously changes things. With a team backing Katarn up and him coordinating with said team he would risk more exposure to fight more aggressively expecting his teammates to aid his defensive guard. I doubt Katarn would be as offensive at the expense of his defense were it a one on one fight.
The Dragon Of The West
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on February 9th 2020, 4:55 pm
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I'll back Starkiller:

-He has comparable potential to Luke and experienced much more vigorous training than, for example, Luke's ROTJ iteration who matched Vader. The amount of raw power Starkiller is boasting should be immense.

-He has better environmental feats than basically all the other combatants - re-directing a falling "vast million ton" ISD, and atomising half of The Salvation (a 300m frigate) are insane demonstrations of power.

-He scales vastly above Vader, who I'm assuming that most of you have as bare minimum a high tier 7 (Gillard scale). He ragdolls Vader in TFU, and blasts away an army of clones that could have "easily" overpowered Vader in TFU 2.

-He's defended against a "desperation fuelled" Sheev's Lightning for 30 seconds with the most negative effects he experienced being incredible pain.

I'm also happy to vote for Windu, but I'm sticking with Starkiller for now.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 4:57 pm
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vader > sk by ANH
The Dragon Of The West
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on February 9th 2020, 4:59 pm
Which you've substantiated with a shit ton of evidence. I concede.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 5:01 pm
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oh ur right. lemme just see what sources u used for ur argument. oh wait
The Dragon Of The West
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on February 9th 2020, 5:02 pm
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I actually mentioned events in the novels that everyone knows about though. You just made a general claim without any substantiation or references to the material.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 5:06 pm
Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself. - http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp


Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith's apprentice, one of the two most powerful beings in the galaxy, was afraid. - Death Star




In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself.
The Dragon Of The West
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on February 9th 2020, 5:08 pm
Why would SK be included in those quotes? All of them are after TFU 2.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 5:11 pm
did SK die at the end of TFU 2? did he disappear from the galaxy? if he still lives, the quote applies to him as well
The Dragon Of The West
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on February 9th 2020, 5:12 pm
It's completely ambiguous whether he's alive at the time of those quotes which means they can't be used to scale Vader above him.
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on February 9th 2020, 5:14 pm
Sign me up as a Revanite again btw lol.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 5:14 pm
NotAA3 wrote:It's completely ambiguous whether he's alive at the time of those quotes which means they can't be used to scale Vader above him.
thats a fair point. i dont know either. he couldve tripped and died lol
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