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Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 11th 2020, 11:08 pm
BOD, a few quotes say that anakin in base >> dooku. thought u wanted to know, since u consider him and vader to be close in power. goes in line with anakin being supposedly more powerful than yoda as well
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Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 12th 2020, 11:55 am
Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 3948126588
Underachiever599
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Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 12th 2020, 11:12 pm
Archibald wrote:
@Underachiever599 wrote:Vader has all the skill of Anakin because he is Anakin. Yes, he had to go through an adjustment period because of the cybernetics. But as someone whose father has a prosthetic, I can tell you with absolute certainty that it doesn’t take long for a human to adjust to a real-world prosthetic limb, much less a prosthetic limb with as much functionality as the ones in Star Wars. We see evidence of this in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Early on in the novel, he’s struggling in a duel he should easily be winning. This is due to him still adjusting to his prosthetics. But by the end of the novel, he’s able to rather easily duel with several formidable Jedi with no problem. He’d already adjusted in that short of a time frame. 

Also, don’t lump technical skill and augmentation into the same category. Augmentation is an element of power, which is a totally different discussion. Yes, both are important to combative ability, but skill is a distinctly separate factor. You yourself gave a perfect example, with Cin Drallig. Extremely skilled, arguably one of the most skilled duelists in the entire Jedi Order. But he pales in combative ability compared to many of the top tier Jedi, due to having less available power.

So, my claim that Vader has all the knowledge and skill of Anakin still stands, whether or not Vader matches Anakin in terms of power (which, he does, as I will show below). 

1. 

Augmentation is a subset of skill though. Your skill with the blade takes into account augmentation, technical skill and experience (though the latter is somewhat tied to technical skill anyway). So ESB Luke gave Vader a hell of a fight, and it was only his "much greater experience" that gave him the edge; so Luke is almost as skilled as Vader, even though he lacks the experience and the technical skill Vader possesses. That doesn't change the fact that's he's almost as skilled as Vader. So, augmentation and power is a subset of overall skill with a lightsaber.

Anakin clearly wasn't as technically skilled as Cin Drallig, but he was more skilled than Drallig, because Drallig's better technical skill and experience paled in comparison to Anakin's power and augmentation, which bumped his overall skill to well above Drallig. And of course, Anakin's overall skill with the blade was more disproportionate thanks to his power than any other Jedi; and guess what? He lost the ability to tap into that power when he lost three limbs and got put in a life-support suit.

Nobody is arguing Vader isn't very technically skilled, but (1) power/augmentation is weighted a lot more favourably when taking into account overall skill (which Vader lost a lot of) and (2) there's no proof Vader has more technical skill than Dooku in the first place.

@Underachiever599 wrote:Beware the Sith: “Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.”

Vader is outright said to be more powerful in ANH than he had been in RotS. And logically, more experienced, after spending nearly two decades hunting Jedi.

Jedi Battles: “This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.”

A second source that confirms ANH Vader is stronger than RotS Mustafar Vader. 

Fightsaber: “In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.”

Vader in ESB is said to be “at the height of his powers.” Considering he was a Dark Lord of the Sith during the Mustafar duel, this should mean ESB Vader is above RotS Anakin.

Return of the Jedi Novel: “His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.”

Self explanatory.

How many more sources do you want? I can keep going, but this post is already getting pretty long. Seriously, it seems like the general consensus of several sources is that Vader by the time of the OT is more powerful than Anakin. Even George’s quote around Vader being 80% of Sidious doesn’t say that Vader lost power when he was put in the suit. George claims Vader’s power was curbed and he lost the ability to become twice as powerful as Sidious. He never says that Anakin grew weaker, just that Anakin lost potential. 

2.

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Esb11

1./ This is a section of Insider where Pablo Hidalgo is speaking on behalf of Lucas, saying "As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess."; and "In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films." 

3.

Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.

--Insider 86

2./ Considering Luke is the equal of Vader not just as a lightsaber combatant but as a Force user, this quote's contrast of Luke being not very powerful relative to Yoda is very telling. Your claim is that Vader is more powerful than he ever was, including when he was on par with Yoda and Sidious in power as KFV (and arguably even more powerful), so the implication from you is that Luke would be superior to ROTS Sidious, Yoda, Mace Windu and Anakin. However, this quote explains that Luke is nowhere near as powerful as Yoda, and being incapable of standing his own against Sidious' Force lightning is a very clear indicator of such.

4.

Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

--Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader

3./ Vader's injuries "greatly diminished his ability to use the Force"; note that (1) this has no time constraint, so this applies to ROTJ as well and (2) it's not talking about his potential, but applicable power. Thus as of ROTJ, Vader's ability to use the Force is still "greatly diminished" relative to when he was Anakin. 

5.

[left]An epic duel made impossible by time. The fully grown Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker crosses lightsabers with Anakin Skywalker before his brutal defeat on Mustafar. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers.

--Star Wars Head-To-Head

4./ Anakin is at the peak of his powers before being in the suit.

6.

Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

--George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary

5./ Lucas says he's lost "a lot of power of the Force"; in other words, he lost a lot of the power he had as Anakin.

7.

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Darth_10

6./ Read the last sentence very carefully. It says Vader remains strong in the Force despite the fact that they were "drastically reduced", and that this applies "for the rest of his life." Thus, his powers are drastically reduced and therefore inferior to Anakin's "for the rest of his life." 

---

7.5

So there's clearly sources on both sides of the fence, however the side saying Vader < Anakin wins out for a couple of reasons. For one, Lucas retcons any contradictory material, and he's made himself very clear on the matter. Hidalgo in an official Q&A also echoes the same reasoning.

8.

Heck, I refrain from appealing to incredulity, but the scaling you're pushing is that everyone megascaled above the ROTS titans.

9.

As for the Lucas "80%" quote, Lucas also said that Sidious could have one-shot killed Luke in ROTJ who's the Force equal of Vader, so even if Lucas was being mathematically accurate and giving an accurate gauge (he wasn't) being 80% of the emperor is still a ragdoll gap, and we know that being able to tear through someone's Force barrier (a proper ragdoll) is disproportionately difficult.  

@Underachiever599 wrote:Fair enough.

10.

Concession accepted.

@Underachiever599 wrote: Still, even if he’s not quite as familiar with Dooku’s style as he once was, Vader would at least have a solid rough idea of how to deal with Dooku’s style. Meanwhile Dooku would be walking into the fight effectively blind, given Vader’s complete retooling of his fighting style.

11.

Fails to be relevant since Dooku is more powerful.

@Underachiever599 wrote:Dooku has more years, but Vader has more applicable combat experience. Dooku spent, what, seven decades studying in a temple? With only a handful of missions involving active combat? Then another ten years organizing a political movement which likely didn’t require him to do much fighting. It wasn’t until the outbreak of the Clone Wars that Dooku actually saw relatively frequent action, and even then he mostly operated behind the scenes. Meanwhile, Anakin spent the entirety of the Clone Wars fighting on the front lines, giving him more combat experience than Dooku in the same 3 year period. On top of that, Vader spent 19 years actively hunting and killing Jedi, and 4 years fighting an all-out war against the Rebel Alliance. That’s 26 years of non-stop combat experience, compared to 3 full years of semi-regular combat and 80 years of very, very little combat on Dooku’s part.

Dooku’s experience edge against Vader is almost entirely academic. If Anakin was able to overcome that experience edge in the handful of years he’d spent as a Jedi, there’s no reason Vader shouldn’t be well above that after an additional 23 years of experience, during which Vader is explicitly said to have grown more powerful than Anakin had been.

12.

I've already addressed these points with Lorenzo. Does sparring not count as combat experience? This is just clear head-canon dictating your position. I guess Dooku's numerous swordsman quotes as a Jedi aren't relevant because he never fought a Dark Jedi or Sith in combat? Yeah no. Sparring is just as viable. Sidious got his skills from sparring with Plagueis and Maul. Heck, even Qui-Gon was able to leverage his experience to help him stand against Maul despite having about the same credentials as Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat training (training at the temple, handful of active combat missions). The idea that Vader has more experience with a lightsaber than Dooku due to fighting fodder Jedi during the dark times is unsubstantiated and absurd.

@Archibald

I apologise for the poor formatting you're about to witness. I'm currently traveling, and am away from my computer and physical copies of all of my sources right now. I'm going to do my best to address the points I've numbered in bold (1-12) in my free time, but I'm stuck doing so on my phone. I trust I don't need to explain how uncooperative mobile formatting is on here.

With that out of the way, let's launch into this.

1. I see where the confusion is coming from. When I use the term skill, I am referring specifically to technical skill. When I said Vader has all the skill and knowledge of Anakin Skywalker, which is the thing you took issue with, I was referring explicitly to technical skill. And we know for a fact, Vader retained all the knowledge and training he'd had as Anakin, since he's the same person. Vader's technical skill should unquestionably be greater than Anakin's, due to him having all the training of Anakin, plus an additional 23 years on top of that.

When you refer to skill, it seems you're referring to overall martial ability, which takes into account technical skill, physical condition, speed, strength, combat precognition, augmentation, and many other factors. It's absolutely believable that Anakin is a better fighter than Vader, due to him having far less physical restrictions, but I stand by my claim that Vader is more knowledgeable and more skilled than Anakin had ever been prior to his fall.

2. First, I want to point out the irony of you using a Hidalgo quote that basically tells us this debate is pointless, because "Star Wars doesn't work that way." Second, your quote is Pablo putting words into George's mouth. Everything he says past, "in other words" is him speaking on behalf of George somewhat out of context, not something George has actually said. Heck, the quote about having not actually seen "true Jedi fight" in the OT doesn't even make sense, unless you don't consider Ben to be a true Jedi any longer. 

3. Again, power has many meanings. BoD has already addressed this. In this case, Luke lacked the knowledge of Tutaminus, a power which Yoda possesses. So in the context of using Tutaminus, Luke is "not as powerful" as Yoda, since he lacks that power. This doesn't necessarily mean Luke's raw strength in the Force is any less than Yoda's. Luke just isn't as powerful in the Jedi arts, specifically.

4. Yes, Vader's abilities in the Force were greatly diminished. But diminished relative to what? The quote doesn't specify. It might mean diminished relative to what they'd been as Anakin. Or it could just as easily be interpreted that Vader's abilities are diminished relative to what they should have been (twice as strong as Palpatine), which we know is the case. I choose to believe the quote refers to the latter, not the former. This enables the quote to still hold true, while not being considered contradictory to the quotes I've previously posted.

5. "Both Skywalkers" - Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are widely treated as separate characters for content such as this. Just because that was Anakin at his peak doesn't mean Vader couldn't be stronger, since Vader usually isn't considered the same character as Anakin.

6. Vader may have initially lost a lot of power, but nothing in that George quote prevents Vader from having grown more powerful over time. Vader initially losing power is consistent with his portrayal in content like Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Early in that book, Vader struggles against a fodder Jedi, which keeps it consistent with George's quote that being put in the suit meant Vader lost a lot of power. But by the end of that book, Vader has grown tremendously, and wrecks several Jedi at once. He continues having accolades about his growth throughout the next 19 years. He still never reaches the power he could have had, but I still have sources outright saying that he'd grown to surpass Mustafar Vader by the time of ANH. Another quote backing this up comes from the ANH novel, where Obi-Wan mentions Vader's powers have matured since they last met, iirc. (Again, I don't have my sources on me).

7. Yes, Vader's powers were drastically reduced. But again, reduced relative to what? The quote doesn't specify. I stand by my belief that the quote means his abilities are drastically reduced relative to how strong he should have been by now. I'd say only being 80% as powerful as Sidious when he should have been twice as powerful counts as Vader's powers being "drastically reduced."

7.5 Yes, George's word retcons contradictory material, but you've failed to prove your sources necessarily contradict mine. Hidalgo put words into George's mouth out of context, and Vader's powers being reduced/diminished could just as easily be in reference to him not achieving the potential he would have achieved had he not been placed in the suit. 

The way I see it, both of our sources can fit together perfectly well with no contradiction.

Base RotS Anakin is weaker than Mustafar Vader is weaker than KFV. 

Vader at the start of DL:TRoDV is weaker than Base Anakin, consistent with George's quote that he'd lost a lot of power.

Vader experiences several periods of growth, from DL:TRoDV to the Coruscant Nights trilogy, to the Dark Times comic, to The Last Jedi, to The Force Unleashed, to the Force Unleashed 2, to ANH, where sources explicitly say Vader was stronger than Mustafar Vader. This can even still be consistent with George's claim that Vader had lost power, as ANH Vader is still weaker than KFV, given how much weaker Mustafar Vader is relative to KFV. 

Vader then experiences even more substantial growth heading into ESB, backed by Fightsaber and George Lucas in The Birth of the Lightsaber featurette, iirc. Here Vader is at the height of his power, as backed by many sources. Here is where Vader likely surpassed KFV in power as well as actual skill (note: this doesn't mean ESB Vader is a better fighter than KFV, as ESB Vader is still restricted by the suit). Vader then experienced further growth going into RotJ, with Fightsaber and Shadows of the Empire both mentioning Vader largely freeing himself from pain and the restrictions of the suit, which should put him farther above KFV.

8. Yeah, lately I have kind of been thinking that the OT characters do scale a touch above the PT Titans, when it comes to raw power. Ben is still below RotS Obi-Wan, as he performs worse against a Vader who, while more powerful than Mustafar Vader by a hair, is far more restricted. But for Vader and Sidious, I can totally see them megascaling. Sidious dedicated himself to exploring the deeper mysteries of the Dark Side after RotS, iirc. If we hold to the 80% quote, Sidious only needs to have grown by ~25% over 23 years of deep study in the Dark Side for Vader to scale above RotS Yoda and Sidious in terms of power. As for Luke, given George has described Luke as becoming what Anakin was meant to be, and as his "full, mature self" in RotJ, I personally don't have a problem with his raw power being roughly on par with RotS Yoda, Sidious, and KFV. 

That said, I don't believe RotJ Luke or Vader would beat RotS Yoda, Sidious, or KFV in an actual head-to-head fight. A Force armwrestle, maybe, but Luke's lack of knowledge and experience, and Vader's hindered movement still lock them below the PT titans as combatants, even if I believe they match them in raw power.

9. First, Sidious could one-shot Luke with FL. Considering lightning seems to mostly bypass Force barriers, which was the only defense Luke has, this is pretty obvious. Vader, on the other hand, has knowledge of Tutamimus and insulated armor that specifically helps protect him from electricity. Palpatine's ability to one-shot Luke has no bearing on his ability to do so against Vader.

Second, I fail to see how this is at all relevant. RotJ Palpatine is leagues stronger than RotS Palpatine, who im turn is more powerful than Dooku by a good amount. What does RotJ Palpatine's relative standing to Vader have to do with this debate at all?

10. It was only a partial concession. As I immediately pointed out, Vader would still have a marginal edge over Dooku due to Vader's familiarity with Dooku's style, even if it's not as major an advantage as I first proposed.

11. You have yet to prove in any meaningful way that Dooku is even comparable to RotJ Vader, much less more powerful. In fact, I believe there are sources which outright peg Vader as Palpatine's most powerful disciple. On top of this, I've already posted sources showing Vader to be stronger than Anakin, who was likewise more powerful than Dooku. I even have a few more to provide.

First, the Coruscant Nights trilogy. Jax Pavan, who had regularly trained with and sparred against Anakin, and had even once witnessed one of Anakin's trademark "flashes of brilliance" still felt that 18BBY Vader was the most powerful Force user he'd ever sensed. 

Second, Nick Rostu, in the same books. He sensed that Vader was more powerful than Kar Vastor. Nick only ever knew Kar on Harrun Kal, where Vastor was thought by Mace to rival the likes of Anakin and even Yoda. Nick also believes in Shadows of Mindor that it was Vader who killed Mace, due to him believing Vader was the only one powerful enough to do so. This puts 18BBY Vader above early Clone Wars Anakin, Mace Windu, and in the same tier as Yoda. 

Third, Ferus Olin. He's repeatedly sensed Vader as the most powerful Force user he'd ever known prior to ESB. This is yet another character who puts Vader above AotC Anakin and even above Mace Windu.

With multiple characters putting pre-prime Vader above AotC-early Clone Wars Anakin, and even placing Vader above Mace Windu, it should be no question that Vader rivals or surpasses Dooku in power long before Vader hits his prime in RotJ.

12. I never said sparring didn't provide experience, nor did I say Dooku wasn't a great swordsman. But iirc, the RotS novel depicts Anakin's technical skill with Form V being great enough to threaten Dooku, despite Dooku's own immense technical skill. Vader has more technical skill than Anakin, so I feel the same should still apply. 

That said, iirc, it is outright stated in some sources that active combat provides more experience than training within a temple. Again, I don't have my sources with me at the moment, but when I return, I'll try and dig up the sources. At the very least, I know Ahsoka outright says as much in an episode of The Clone Wars when she's complaining about being assigned as Padme's bodyguard. So yes, I do believe Vader's 26 years of constant active combat do weigh more heavily in terms of experience than Dooku's 70 years of temple training. Especially since we know Anakin with only 3 years of combat experience and 10 years of temple training had already closed the gap in technical skill between himself and Dooku in the RotS novel, and Vader should be more technically skilled than Anakin.
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Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 16th 2020, 11:41 am
@BoD wrote:Your scan then goes on to say this: "Luke, though not as skilful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels, is still a formidable opponent, and he is very strong in the Force." By this, Hidalgo is saying that "random factors" like luck - and, logically, constant factors like physicals, power, etc - can all shift the outcome of a battle, which is what makes Luke able to fight Vader (his rage amp plus his luck plus the plot backing him). There's no reason someone like Vader, who has comparable power to Dooku and is much physically stronger, can't use these to compensate for his inferior technical skill if he were to fight the Count.

I think you're missing the most important bit: "In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films." So yeah, Pablo is specifically saying ROTS Anakin's skill and power is better than anything in the classic films.

@BoD wrote:Everything from that post is in reference to technique: skill and acrobatics can only carry you so far. As Hidalgo says, "random factors can always tip the balance", so why can't constant factors like Vader's far superior strength and comparable raw power (alongside his fairly impressive speed) tip the battle, so to speak?

Vader's far superior strength proven where? Comparable raw power proven where?

---

@BoD wrote:You sure that's from Insider 86? Skimmed through Hidalgo's Q&A and can't find it. Not doubting, just confused.

I got the quote from Ant, and it's used in Superfight III, so I'm sure it exists.

---

@BoD wrote:The quotes claiming Luke = Vader in power are muddled and fairly lacking in context. The ones that claim they're equals fail to mention that this is rage amped Luke:

Yeah, don't wanna delve into semantics with you; specifically that all these disparate sources from various locations actually don't take the rage amp into context. Anyway, Luke was still matching Vader's full capabilities while fighting passively (not rage-amped), so not really relevant. And considering Luke was actually pressing Vader and contending with him for several minutes on Bespin, coupled with his stated growth in the interim, I doubt all these sources are just misrepresenting the fight. Orcam's razor really, my stance is a lot easier and makes more logical sense, yours is clearly biased.

---

@BoD wrote:Not really. Power is an incredibly vague term, and can refer to different attributes, including skill and mastery with said power. Luke can be "not very powerful" next to Yoda (despite being stated to be very strong in the Force by Hidalgo in your other source) because he lacks any experience or further mastery needed to block lightning with tutaminis or a Force barrier (which, considering how difficult lightning is to block without mastery, is most likely). That doesn't mean Luke's raw power is "not very powerful", just that overall he's not close to Yoda. Likewise, this does not extend to Vader.

Nobody said Luke's "raw power" isn't good. The quote plainly says Luke isn't comparable to Yoda combatively, and Vader can't slash past his guard at all. The clear message here is that Luke isn't anywhere close to Yoda.

---

@BoD wrote:Yes it can, and it can also just apply to post-ROTS, hence why it talks about the lightsaber duel and how it mortally wounded him. IIRC, there are sources saying ROTJ Vader got over most of the limitations of his suit and injuries. Will try and find them later.

It says his injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force and it applies to ROTJ, simple as that. And overcoming the limitations of his suit means he overcame the physical limitations of his suit... there's no evidence to suggest Vader went from extremely hampered to ROTS Sidious tier between ANH and ESB.

---

@BoD wrote:No, it's saying they were "greatly diminished" compared to KFV, not Anakin. It was KFV who was injured on Mustafar, not Anakin. In comparison to KFV, yes his powers are a lot weaker, but nothing about that would stop even post-ROTS Vader's raw power from dropping from equalling ROTS Sidious to, say Dooku, which in itself is a significant gap.

You mean MFV Anakin?

And sorry, facts don't care about your feelings, or in this case, intuitions. Not a valid argument, based on your intuition, and thus can be handwaved.

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@BoD wrote:KFV for the former, and the latter part is explicitly talking about potential, which is irrelevant. ROTJ Vader can still be > Anakin in power.

Not saying this quote singularly debunks you, it's tertiary evidence really. All these sources together paint a clear picture though: Anakin lost a drastic portion of his "ability" to the use the Force, and much of his potential as well. So his applicable power and potential were reduced significantly.

---

@BoD wrote:Please clarify if you mean Anakin or KFV, because it's clearly referring to them in the context of the post-Mustafar (KFV) period.

Kinda getting sick of you trying to emphasise that it's "KFV", even though it's "MFV" in technicality. It makes no difference, his drastic loss of power lasted the rest of his life.

---

@Underachiever599

1. I see where the confusion is coming from. When I use the term skill, I am referring specifically to technical skill. When I said Vader has all the skill and knowledge of Anakin Skywalker, which is the thing you took issue with, I was referring explicitly to technical skill. And we know for a fact, Vader retained all the knowledge and training he'd had as Anakin, since he's the same person. Vader's technical skill should unquestionably be greater than Anakin's, due to him having all the training of Anakin, plus an additional 23 years on top of that.

Fair enough, we obviously weren't on the same page. Not sure why being a lot better than Anakin in technical skill is impressive though. No evidence that supersedes Dooku.

When you refer to skill, it seems you're referring to overall martial ability, which takes into account technical skill, physical condition, speed, strength, combat precognition, augmentation, and many other factors. It's absolutely believable that Anakin is a better fighter than Vader, due to him having far less physical restrictions, but I stand by my claim that Vader is more knowledgeable and more skilled than Anakin had ever been prior to his fall.

Doesn't matter when Anakin is vastly more powerful, nullifying Vader's advantages in technical skill, experience and knowledge.

---

2. First, I want to point out the irony of you using a Hidalgo quote that basically tells us this debate is pointless, because "Star Wars doesn't work that way." Second, your quote is Pablo putting words into George's mouth. Everything he says past, "in other words" is him speaking on behalf of George somewhat out of context, not something George has actually said. Heck, the quote about having not actually seen "true Jedi fight" in the OT doesn't even make sense, unless you don't consider Ben to be a true Jedi any longer.

Merely a tertiary quote that corroborates a bunch of sources in unison. Not a primary, factual piece of evidence.

3. Again, power has many meanings. BoD has already addressed this. In this case, Luke lacked the knowledge of Tutaminus, a power which Yoda possesses. So in the context of using Tutaminus, Luke is "not as powerful" as Yoda, since he lacks that power. This doesn't necessarily mean Luke's raw strength in the Force is any less than Yoda's. Luke just isn't as powerful in the Jedi arts, specifically.

Yeah, no. AOTC Anakin has the same raw power as Yoda, I also don't see why Luke wouldn't either, that doesn't make AOTC Anakin on par with Yoda. Nobody is denying Luke's immense raw power, but from a combative viewpoint - which that Yoda / Luke quote is referring to - Luke isn't comparable to a Yoda tier combatant, whereas someone like Dooku clearly was (at least a lot more than Luke is).

4. Yes, Vader's abilities in the Force were greatly diminished. But diminished relative to what? The quote doesn't specify. It might mean diminished relative to what they'd been as Anakin. Or it could just as easily be interpreted that Vader's abilities are diminished relative to what they should have been (twice as strong as Palpatine), which we know is the case. I choose to believe the quote refers to the latter, not the former. This enables the quote to still hold true, while not being considered contradictory to the quotes I've previously posted.

Yeah, no. It says his "injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force." It's referring to applicable power. He even notes some time after getting in the suit that this is exactly what it felt like, he could still use the Force, but the power was only a memory of what he once was able to touch. Applicable power.

5. "Both Skywalkers" - Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are widely treated as separate characters for content such as this. Just because that was Anakin at his peak doesn't mean Vader couldn't be stronger, since Vader usually isn't considered the same character as Anakin.

So you're allowed to make this distinction, but on the other hand you use the quotes saying Vader is at the peak of his power and apply this to Anakin as well? Double standard. Concession accepted.

6. Vader may have initially lost a lot of power, but nothing in that George quote prevents Vader from having grown more powerful over time. Vader initially losing power is consistent with his portrayal in content like Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Early in that book, Vader struggles against a fodder Jedi, which keeps it consistent with George's quote that being put in the suit meant Vader lost a lot of power. But by the end of that book, Vader has grown tremendously, and wrecks several Jedi at once. He continues having accolades about his growth throughout the next 19 years. He still never reaches the power he could have had, but I still have sources outright saying that he'd grown to surpass Mustafar Vader by the time of ANH. Another quote backing this up comes from the ANH novel, where Obi-Wan mentions Vader's powers have matured since they last met, iirc. (Again, I don't have my sources on me).

So this is another case of "well he grew a lot so he likely became more powerful than Anakin"? Don't care about the intuition argument.

Also, your quotes are contradicted by a more weighted variety of contradictory sources that say Vader was drastically weakened and remained that way. The quotes are also newer as well. Plus Lucas one-shots.

7. Yes, Vader's powers were drastically reduced. But again, reduced relative to what? The quote doesn't specify. I stand by my belief that the quote means his abilities are drastically reduced relative to how strong he should have been by now. I'd say only being 80% as powerful as Sidious when he should have been twice as powerful counts as Vader's powers being "drastically reduced."

When would "drastically reduced power" mean his potential? It clearly means the power he can wield.

---

The rest of your stuff is 90% intuition and not factual. Dooku has beaten Yoda in combat, and causes Yoda to fight to exhaustion just to beat him. There's no evidence Vader is remotely on this level, especially since his combative equal Luke is stated to be not even closely comparable to Yoda.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 16th 2020, 7:55 pm
I'm still on vacation and away from my sources and my computer. I'll have a reply posted sometime after Wednesday. Suffice to say, though, you have inadequately responded to several of my points (from my point of view), and still have yet to provide a sufficient argument for Dooku.

I do specifically want to reply to the Anakin/Vader distinction. Your source specifically referred to Anakin. To me, that means before the events of the Chancellor's office, when Anakin was officially dubbed Darth Vader. After that moment, Anakin ceased to be and was instead Vader. So my quotes about ESB Vader being at the height of his power encompass KFV and MFV, but wouldn't encompass, say, "Zonakin" from the BoRotS duel against Dooku. 

Not a double standard, not a concession, just a different point of view from yours.
Isv
Isv
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Level One

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 16th 2020, 8:15 pm
See my most recent post for details on why the Team wins  Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 1019854026
BoD
BoD
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Level Four

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 16th 2020, 8:49 pm
@Archibald Will respond to this in a bit, but did you seriously quote Ben Shapiro?
BoD
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Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 16th 2020, 9:55 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
I think you're missing the most important bit: "In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films." So yeah, Pablo is specifically saying ROTS Anakin's skill and power is better than anything in the classic films.


I fail to see why this caps Vader below Dooku. Besides it being vague - which Anakin, BoROTS, IH, KFV or MFV? - it's worth noting that Anakin grows multiple times over the course, and it's also suggested multiple times that ROTS Anakin > Dooku in power:


"Soon, I shall have a new apprentice. One far younger and more powerful."

-


Sidious then turned his attention to Anakin Skywalker, knowing that young Skywalker was much stronger in the Force than Tyranus.

-

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand."

-


Re-live the incredible battle between two of the most powerful Jedi of all - as they fight to the finish on a Trade Federation Cruiser! Only the strongest Jedi remains—will it be the light side or the dark side of the Force?

-

Sidious is merely playing for time until he is ready to replace Tyranus with a new, more powerful apprentice, who will help him to achieve his ultimate aim: utter subjugation of the galaxy under Sith rule and the formation of a merciless new order — the Galactic Empire.

-

So I'm going to need proof that A) the quote is specifically referring to BoROTS Anakin, and B) why he's below Dooku and thus Vader is below him.


Vader's far superior strength proven where?

Vader's strength has proven itself time and time again. What has Dooku got to suggest he's nearly as strong? Vader has feats like shattering pillars after just willing himself back from the brink of death and without a breathing mask to sustain him, crushing a Stormtrooper's head while in an awkward position for applying pressure, and easily dealt with a dozen armoured men crashing into him. Dooku lacks any comparable strength feats against physically superior opponents.




Comparable raw power proven where?

His insane growth rates, for one. I've established his growth time and time again. Go check out the RT if you want further details.



I got the quote from Ant, and it's used in Superfight III, so I'm sure it exists.

Mind providing the whole quote, then? Cos I've never seen this. 


Yeah, don't wanna delve into semantics with you; specifically that all these disparate sources from various locations actually don't take the rage amp into context.

That's not semantics, lol. That's a clear failure to communicate context. It's a case of pretermission. If you miss out key context which is shown in every primary source including the script, film itself and novel, that's a clear omission of context. If we can substantiate other fights such as Mace vs Sidious with the context of the Vaapad amp, we can sure as hell contextualise those quotes with the rage amp.





Anyway, Luke was still matching Vader's full capabilities while fighting passively (not rage-amped),

Defensively, not passively. Completely different things. And in which fight? TR&FoDV? Or ROTJ, which has Luke block about 4 strikes before retreating? And note that I never said Luke < Vader as a swordsman, so this is a strawman argument.





so not really relevant

Already established why it is.




. And considering Luke was actually pressing Vader and contending with him for several minutes on Bespin,

You'll need to substantiate this. There are several 
sources suggesting otherwise.





coupled with his stated growth in the interim,

Vader also grew within the period between ESB and ROTJ. Unless you're arguing Luke grew faster than Vader (which you'll need to actually substantiate instead of making sweeping claims), or that Luke grew and Vader didn't (factually wrong), this is irrelevant.



I doubt all these sources are just misrepresenting the fight.

Again, every primary source depicting the fight as well as the G-canon film has Luke clearly rage amped. Watch the film again.




Orcam's razor really, my stance is a lot easier and makes more logical sense, yours is clearly biased.

First, it's Occam's Razor. Second, you're completely wrong on this. Luke was indisputably rage amped. 



Nobody said Luke's "raw power" isn't good. The quote plainly says Luke isn't comparable to Yoda combatively,

So you concede that the quote can just as easily be talking about skill and mastery, neither of which Luke has with tutaminis or Force deflection. 




and Vader can't slash past his guard at all.

You're confusing Force usage and lightsaber skill yet again. And as I've already said, you still need to substantiate your claim that that quote is talking about raw power rather than skill or mastery.





The clear message here is that Luke isn't anywhere close to Yoda.

Be specific. In lightsaber skill? Raw power? Mastery? Knowledge? These are all areas that power can refer to, so please elaborate.



It says his injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force and it applies to ROTJ, simple as that.

Mate, there is literally no timestamp on this. It's referring to Vader from the end of ROTS, which - fun fact - as a film, included a version of Anakin who could stomp Dooku and another who was equal to Sidious. Want to try and provide reasoning for why this is relevant to him being comparable to Dooku in raw power?





And overcoming the limitations of his suit means he overcame the physical limitations of his suit... there's no evidence to suggest Vader went from extremely hampered to ROTS Sidious tier between ANH and ESB.

Once again, you're seeing arguments where none exist. I never claimed ESB Vader was ROTS Sidious. I said Vader was around Dooku level in raw power, which in no way makes him ROTS Sidious tier.


You mean MFV Anakin?

Yes.


And sorry, facts don't care about your feelings, or in this case, intuitions.

The fact that you referenced a man who's lost to almost any debater who's not in college is somewhat ironic.



Not a valid argument, based on your intuition, and thus can be handwaved.


And yet you've hand-waved away the lack of context in those quotes to try and argue that base Luke = Vader despite that not being the case per every primary source. 





Not saying this quote singularly debunks you, it's tertiary evidence really.

No offence, but it's pretty weak evidence.





All these sources together paint a clear picture though: Anakin lost a drastic portion of his "ability" to the use the Force, and much of his potential as well. So his applicable power and potential were reduced significantly.

Flawless logic, except I never said ROTJ Vader ~ ROTS Sidious. Again, you're strawmanning. 



Kinda getting sick of you trying to emphasise that it's "KFV", even though it's "MFV" in technicality. It makes no difference, his drastic loss of power lasted the rest of his life.

Yes, because dropping from being equal to ROTS Sidious to Dooku level totally isn't a "drastic" loss of power. 
Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 18th 2020, 6:38 pm
Team, barely. Lol at Vader stomping.
The Witness
The Witness

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 19th 2020, 2:53 am
Vader can solo
The Witness
The Witness

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

on February 19th 2020, 2:54 am
@Gaunter O'Dimm wrote:Team, barely. Lol at Vader stomping.
Literally no one has said that
AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

Yesterday at 11:17 am
I’m not part of the debate or anything like the but I just wanted to say one thing: sparing is completely different from life or death fighting, that’s why nobody acknowledges it as a combat experience.
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