Re: Dooku vs Vader and Luke

February 8th 2020, 12:27 am

Underachiever599 wrote:Vader solos.

I've always stood by the opinion that Vader was Palpatine's best apprentice, despite the setback of being placed in the suit. He has all the knowledge and skill of Anakin, and many sources imply that Vader as of RotJ may in fact be stronger in the Force than Anakin as of RotS (with RotJ Vader being considered Vader in his prime by several sources, which should make him stronger than RotS Pre-suit Vader). On top of this, Vader should be physically stronger than Anakin, and is unquestionably more durable. And of course, he'd have intimate knowledge of Dooku's fighting style, given Anakin's prior experience against the Sith. Dooku may be a touch more quick (even that's debatable, given some of Vader's speed feats), and his Force lightning gives him a minor edge against Vader, but I just don't see him ultimately beating Vader for a majority.

1. Prove Vader has all the skill of Anakin.

2. I don't care about implications, give me the sources you think tell us Vade > Anakin in the Force. And by giving me the sources, I mean actually post them.

3. Vader is obviously stronger than Anakin without augmentation, but augmented strength is what actually counts, and Anakin's augmented strength is superior to Vader's because he's stronger in the Force.

4. Intimate knowledge of Dooku's style that he hasn't had to think about for what? Over two decades?

5. Vader's experience kind of pales in comparison to Dooku's eight decades of lightsaber training and combat experience.

February 8th 2020, 12:38 am

Meatpants wrote:

Underachiever599 wrote:Vader solos.

I've always stood by the opinion that Vader was Palpatine's best apprentice, despite the setback of being placed in the suit. He has all the knowledge and skill of Anakin, and many sources imply that Vader as of RotJ may in fact be stronger in the Force than Anakin as of RotS (with RotJ Vader being considered Vader in his prime by several sources, which should make him stronger than RotS Pre-suit Vader). On top of this, Vader should be physically stronger than Anakin, and is unquestionably more durable. And of course, he'd have intimate knowledge of Dooku's fighting style, given Anakin's prior experience against the Sith. Dooku may be a touch more quick (even that's debatable, given some of Vader's speed feats), and his Force lightning gives him a minor edge against Vader, but I just don't see him ultimately beating Vader for a majority.

1. Prove Vader has all the skill of Anakin.

2. I don't care about implications, give me the sources you think tell us Vade > Anakin in the Force. And by giving me the sources, I mean actually post them.

3. Vader is obviously stronger than Anakin without augmentation, but augmented strength is what actually counts, and Anakin's augmented strength is superior to Vader's because he's stronger in the Force.

4. Intimate knowledge of Dooku's style that he hasn't had to think about for what? Over two decades?

5. Vader's experience kind of pales in comparison to Dooku's eight decades of lightsaber training and combat experience.

1. why would his skill have declined? they are the same person. same weapon, same arm length, same style, same technique, and actually, vader has been doing it for longer too.

2. ill let him solve that.

3. i mean, naturally, vader is stronger than greivous, who was as strong as obi wan. adding augmentation can make him way stronger than before. its a matter of logic here.

4. and? yoda hadnt fought dooku and 10 years, neither had dooku fought yoda in 10 years- made no difference to them.

5. vader has killed and fought more force users than dooku could ever imagine

February 8th 2020, 12:53 am

I kinda have to disagree with that 1st point, Vader is notably taller than Anakin and much heavier. He also doesn't have the same style, cause it's noted he had to rework it to fit his new body, so he's not having the same technique. Still he is going to have all that knowledge anyway from his prior life, that's not gonna go away.

February 8th 2020, 1:35 am

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:1. why would his skill have declined? they are the same person. same weapon, same arm length, same style, same technique, and actually, vader has been doing it for longer too.

Same person, except he lost three limbs and was encased in a life-support suit that forced him to completely retool the way he used a lightsaber in order to minimise the weaknesses of his armor.

Moreover, "skill" is determined by both your technical skill and your augmentation, and Vader doesn't have anything close to Anakin's augmentation. He remains less skilled than Anakin by a considerable margin.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:3. i mean, naturally, vader is stronger than greivous, who was as strong as obi wan. adding augmentation can make him way stronger than before. its a matter of logic here.

No it isn't. The onus is on you to prove that Vader's augmentation is > Anakin's, not just your intuition thinking it is. And what you ignored from my point is that augmentation is the main provider of strength, hence why Yoda can hit harder than Bane, for example.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:4. and? yoda hadnt fought dooku and 10 years, neither had dooku fought yoda in 10 years- made no difference to them.

It made no difference to them in what respect? Vader has a completely new style, fights nothing like Anakin and hasn't fought Dooku for more than double the time of your example; even though your example makes no sense.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:5. vader has killed and fought more force users than dooku could ever imagine

So? He's probably killed way more Force users than Yoda or Sidious as well, does that change anything? Sidious became one of the most skilled duelists in galactic history purely through sparring with Plagueis. Dooku sparred with Yoda, Qui-Gon and presumably many other top notch duelists like Windu for eight decades.

February 8th 2020, 1:55 am

1. true enough. but his new technique and style is better than the last one. djem so doenst rely on agility nearly as much as people think, meaning that him being stiff and less agile doesnt take away all that u say it does from his skill. i would assume that he had to rework his technique by having a new body with limitations, and not because he lost his skill. skill doenst go away in a month. what went away was his agility and what he gained was a new body, completely different from the previous one.

skill is determined by augmentation?? what? lol

2. anakin is only strong because of his strong ass augmentation. without augmentation, vader >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>... anakin in strength. this would surely even out the difference in power between their augmentations, which vader, by the way, has it perfected far more than anakin ever did.

3. i didnt know that by getting a new style he lost all his previous his previous advantages. oh wait, he didnt. nevermind. so yeah, dooku's weaknesses are still available for vader to exploit here. dooku is not faster, nor stronger. not nearly as tough, not nearly as resilient, and their stamina is not even comparable.

4. ur the one that countered my exp argument with dooku's age, now u wanna tell me it doenst matter? lol

February 8th 2020, 2:15 am

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:1. true enough. but his new technique and style is better than the last one. djem so doenst rely on agility nearly as much as people think, meaning that him being stiff and less agile doesnt take away all that u say it does from his skill. i would assume that he had to rework his technique by having a new body with limitations, and not because he lost his skill. skill doenst go away in a month. what went away was his agility and what he gained was a new body, completely different from the previous one.

So you've completely ignored my point? Let me restate it verbatim: "Moreover, "skill" is determined by both your technical skill and your augmentation, and Vader doesn't have anything close to Anakin's augmentation. He remains less skilled than Anakin by a considerable margin."

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lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:skill is determined by augmentation?? what? lol

Partially, yes. Anakin has nowhere near the technical skill of say Cin Drallig. Drallig has more technical skill, but Anakin has so much more power that he can get away with it and still be a lot better.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:2. anakin is only strong because of his strong ass augmentation. without augmentation, vader >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>... anakin in strength. this would surely even out the difference in power between their augmentations, which vader, by the way, has it perfected far more than anakin ever did.

Yeah, I don't care about "without augmentation"; Vader would absolutely ragdoll Yoda in a "no Force" fistfight, that proves absolutely nothing. And again, you're saying "well surely this must be the case". Let's debate on the cold, hard facts here. The clincher for this yet again is for you to prove that Vader's power, and thus his augmentation, is better than Anakin's. Moreover, Vader lost a great deal of his ability to draw on the Force after Mustafar, he never again had that baseline power and never reached it again. The onus is on you, and the other Vader debaters to prove that, which they haven't. So far it's "oh well he should have gotten back that power at some point" with no evidence laid on the table. Though you should know that there's several quotes supporting my position that Vader lost much of his power after losing his limbs.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:3. i didnt know that by getting a new style he lost all his previous his previous advantages. oh wait, he didnt. nevermind. so yeah, dooku's weaknesses are still available for vader to exploit here. dooku is not faster, nor stronger. not nearly as tough, not nearly as resilient, and their stamina is not even comparable.

You mean the advantage of being weighed down by a life-support suit that restricted his movements drastically?

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:4. ur the one that countered my exp argument with dooku's age, now u wanna tell me it doenst matter? lol

What are you talking about? Dooku has more experience than Vader, more technical skill than Vader, more baseline Force power and augmentation than Vader etc.

February 8th 2020, 2:23 am

I'mma answer tomorrow

February 8th 2020, 3:34 am

@Meatpants

1. Prove Vader has all the skill of Anakin.

Vader has all the skill of Anakin because he is Anakin. Yes, he had to go through an adjustment period because of the cybernetics. But as someone whose father has a prosthetic, I can tell you with absolute certainty that it doesn’t take long for a human to adjust to a real-world prosthetic limb, much less a prosthetic limb with as much functionality as the ones in Star Wars. We see evidence of this in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Early on in the novel, he’s struggling in a duel he should easily be winning. This is due to him still adjusting to his prosthetics. But by the end of the novel, he’s able to rather easily duel with several formidable Jedi with no problem. He’d already adjusted in that short of a time frame.

Also, don’t lump technical skill and augmentation into the same category. Augmentation is an element of power, which is a totally different discussion. Yes, both are important to combative ability, but skill is a distinctly separate factor. You yourself gave a perfect example, with Cin Drallig. Extremely skilled, arguably one of the most skilled duelists in the entire Jedi Order. But he pales in combative ability compared to many of the top tier Jedi, due to having less available power.

So, my claim that Vader has all the knowledge and skill of Anakin still stands, whether or not Vader matches Anakin in terms of power (which, he does, as I will show below).

2. I don't care about implications, give me the sources you think tell us Vade > Anakin in the Force. And by giving me the sources, I mean actually post them.

Beware the Sith: “Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.”

Vader is outright said to be more powerful in ANH than he had been in RotS. And logically, more experienced, after spending nearly two decades hunting Jedi.

Jedi Battles: “This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.”

A second source that confirms ANH Vader is stronger than RotS Mustafar Vader.

Fightsaber: “In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.”

Vader in ESB is said to be “at the height of his powers.” Considering he was a Dark Lord of the Sith during the Mustafar duel, this should mean ESB Vader is above RotS Anakin.

Return of the Jedi Novel: “His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.”

Self explanatory.

How many more sources do you want? I can keep going, but this post is already getting pretty long. Seriously, it seems like the general consensus of several sources is that Vader by the time of the OT is more powerful than Anakin. Even George’s quote around Vader being 80% of Sidious doesn’t say that Vader lost power when he was put in the suit. George claims Vader’s power was curbed and he lost the ability to become twice as powerful as Sidious. He never says that Anakin grew weaker, just that Anakin lost potential.

3. Vader is obviously stronger than Anakin without augmentation, but augmented strength is what actually counts, and Anakin's augmented strength is superior to Vader's because he's stronger in the Force.

Prove that Anakin’s augmentation is stronger, since I just posted 4 quotes stating Vader is the more powerful of the two. If augmented strength is what matters, it seems this is Vader’s game.

4. Intimate knowledge of Dooku's style that he hasn't had to think about for what? Over two decades?

Fair enough. Still, even if he’s not quite as familiar with Dooku’s style as he once was, Vader would at least have a solid rough idea of how to deal with Dooku’s style. Meanwhile Dooku would be walking into the fight effectively blind, given Vader’s complete retooling of his fighting style.

5. Vader's experience kind of pales in comparison to Dooku's eight decades of lightsaber training and combat experience.

Dooku has more years, but Vader has more applicable combat experience. Dooku spent, what, seven decades studying in a temple? With only a handful of missions involving active combat? Then another ten years organizing a political movement which likely didn’t require him to do much fighting. It wasn’t until the outbreak of the Clone Wars that Dooku actually saw relatively frequent action, and even then he mostly operated behind the scenes. Meanwhile, Anakin spent the entirety of the Clone Wars fighting on the front lines, giving him more combat experience than Dooku in the same 3 year period. On top of that, Vader spent 19 years actively hunting and killing Jedi, and 4 years fighting an all-out war against the Rebel Alliance. That’s 26 years of non-stop combat experience, compared to 3 full years of semi-regular combat and 80 years of very, very little combat on Dooku’s part.

Dooku’s experience edge against Vader is almost entirely academic. If Anakin was able to overcome that experience edge in the handful of years he’d spent as a Jedi, there’s no reason Vader shouldn’t be well above that after an additional 23 years of experience, during which Vader is explicitly said to have grown more powerful than Anakin had been.

February 8th 2020, 9:09 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Vader in 19 BBY went from struggling with a single knight a few weeks after Mustafar to toying with 2 knights and one-shotting 3 padawans as well as fighting evenly with Roan Shryne barely a month later. Around the same time, he also easily killed 2 veteran Jedi knights in blade-to-blade combat. Acting like he suddenly lost all of his skill from his time as Anakin despite clear evidence to the contrary is laughable. He might have lost some applicable technical skill, but that doesn't suddenly make him << ROTS Anakin, especially since he had around 24 years to work on these drawbacks and improve his technique. While I personally don't think he's ROTS Anakin level in skill, acting like Dooku could stomp him is nonsensical. That's not even factoring in his strength, superior stamina, and comparable raw Force power.

February 8th 2020, 9:19 am

@BoD Vader "lacks the polish of lifelong masters", and Dooku definitely is one.

February 8th 2020, 9:22 am

Vader "lacks the polish of lifelong masters", and Dooku definitely is one.

Vaapad appears unpolished to the untrained eye, doesn't mean Mace is below swordsmen like Shaak Ti. Polish is literally used to refer to refinement and finesse, looking more artful and skilled. Juyo and Vaapad, for example, are both "unpolished" because they are erratic and unpredictable: that doesn't mean they're somehow less dangerous nor that their users are less skilled.

February 8th 2020, 2:35 pm

Archibald wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:1. true enough. but his new technique and style is better than the last one. djem so doenst rely on agility nearly as much as people think, meaning that him being stiff and less agile doesnt take away all that u say it does from his skill. i would assume that he had to rework his technique by having a new body with limitations, and not because he lost his skill. skill doenst go away in a month. what went away was his agility and what he gained was a new body, completely different from the previous one.

So you've completely ignored my point? Let me restate it verbatim: "Moreover, "skill" is determined by both your technical skill and your augmentation, and Vader doesn't have anything close to Anakin's augmentation. He remains less skilled than Anakin by a considerable margin."

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U can restate whatever u want. u saying that skill = augmentation + technical skill doenst make it true lol. vader has shattered bolders by walking backwards into them my guy. he almost disarmed Roan Shryne, who had hype around the levels of kit fisto and qui gon. u can say what u want, but just like me, u also have to prove ur points.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:skill is determined by augmentation?? what? lol

Partially, yes. Anakin has nowhere near the technical skill of say Cin Drallig. Drallig has more technical skill, but Anakin has so much more power that he can get away with it and still be a lot better.

Says who? how do u know that drallig is more technically skilled than anakin? Dooku himself says that anakin has a better skill and usage of Djem So than any other person he has ever met. this would plo koon, drallig, yoda, and mace windu.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:2. anakin is only strong because of his strong ass augmentation. without augmentation, vader >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>... anakin in strength. this would surely even out the difference in power between their augmentations, which vader, by the way, has it perfected far more than anakin ever did.

Yeah, I don't care about "without augmentation"; Vader would absolutely ragdoll Yoda in a "no Force" fistfight, that proves absolutely nothing. And again, you're saying "well surely this must be the case". Let's debate on the cold, hard facts here. The clincher for this yet again is for you to prove that Vader's power, and thus his augmentation, is better than Anakin's. Moreover, Vader lost a great deal of his ability to draw on the Force after Mustafar, he never again had that baseline power and never reached it again. The onus is on you, and the other Vader debaters to prove that, which they haven't. So far it's "oh well he should have gotten back that power at some point" with no evidence laid on the table. Though you should know that there's several quotes supporting my position that Vader lost much of his power after losing his limbs.

Im not sure u are understanding what im trying to say here. the natural, physical gap here is far greater than the force gap. Vader > grievous = Kenobi = Dooku, in strength. Add in some crazy ass augmentation and u have:

Vader (with augmentation) >>>>>> Vader naturally > GG = kenobi = Dooku. Anakin was stronger than Dooku, but not this much stronger.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:3. i didnt know that by getting a new style he lost all his previous his previous advantages. oh wait, he didnt. nevermind. so yeah, dooku's weaknesses are still available for vader to exploit here. dooku is not faster, nor stronger. not nearly as tough, not nearly as resilient, and their stamina is not even comparable.

You mean the advantage of being weighed down by a life-support suit that restricted his movements drastically?

Thats like saying that my skill is diminished because my balls are too big and enemies would want to target them. His style changed because it had too. hell, anakin's Djem So wasnt even the basic Djem So, it was a brach that anakin himself made modifications to as a means of making it better. he would never have made a new style without making it stornger and better than before.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:4. ur the one that countered my exp argument with dooku's age, now u wanna tell me it doenst matter? lol

What are you talking about? Dooku has more experience than Vader, more technical skill than Vader, more baseline Force power and augmentation than Vader etc.

i thought u said that it didnt matter? gotta choose. which is it- exp doesnt matter cuz of pure training and superior power, or does it matter, and thats the reason u keep bringing up the dooku argument?

and u really gotta prove that dooku is far more experienced than vader man. that coming from some fanfic u read or something?

February 8th 2020, 3:49 pm

Sorry for being late to the party of downplayers and haters!

@IG wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Either Luke or Vader solo. Vader is way too strong and resilient, if Anakin can casually body Dooku than Vader who can use both the light and dark sides of the Force with better control over both sides, more sophisticated and versatile dueling than Anakin. Luke also solos because he’s basically Vader with less experience and not requiring a hindering suit to sustain himself since he could stalemate Vader while he himself was holding back because it was his father meanwhile Vader was trying to kill him in order to fully submerge himself in the Dark Side. Vader even has feats and author statements to put him above Dooku and Luke scales off of them.

Hm. Vader can use light and the dark? I'm calling horseshit here.

Why? And you’re missing the point that Vader is a physical superior and more skilled/experienced and versatile, version of Anakin who already casually bodied Dooku once he used his rage.

Unless either Luke or Vader are literally equal to Yoda at this point, they aren't touching Dooku lol. Vader has statements pinning him at Ben level or below--per Lucas, "we've never seen a real Jedi yet", implying Luke doesn't have the skill, and/or power of a "real Jedi", including the likes of even Qui Gon, and he's said that not using the force for a while on a daily basis (training with it) will make you regress (kind of like Ben on Tatooine, huh?). Meaning that Ben, in both power and skill with a saber is vastly inferior to his ROTS Self. Dooku ragdolls ROTS Kenobi and annihilates him in a duel. GG.

Hasn't Mace been Contended with an even beaten by people who are not Yoda level? Also Dooku had studied Yoda’s style through and through and couldn’t earn any advantage from it proving he’s not Yoda level as he could only contend with him due to familiarity of his fighting style but remember that same Dooku was pressed by Padwan Anakin. When did Lucas say “not using the Force makes you regress?” Vader showcases in the movie and tie in novels that he was superior to Kenobi and both Fightsaber which says “Kenobi could hold off the Dark Lord but CAN NOT BRING VICTORY AGAINST HIM” and Jedi Battles which wrote "This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge." So no, Old Ben is not Vader level, heck vader had the upper hand on him while playing it Cautious because he didn’t want to be turned into a burnt up husky again which was implied in the novels meanwhile Kenobi went all out and merely exhausted himself. Anyone who thinks old Ben is even comparable to Vader is either a troll or suffers from mental illnesses because he clearly isn’t as proven through scaling and statements. As for the “we’ve never seen real Jedi’s at work” statement: that statement is contradicted by Vader’s feats like becoming a seasoned Jedi killer with dozens of Jedi kills under his belt, contending with like 10 Jedi while disarmed of his lightsaber (blitzing a few) and decades before his prime in Star Wars Purge, being equal to a clone of Darth Maul who was said by authors to be = to TFM Maul, being equal to the Starkiller clone was is at least equal to the original Galen Marek who destroyed “JEDI MASTER” Shaak Ti (despite being at a disadvantage because Ti literally had the entire planet helping her) before his turn to the Light Side and afterwards becoming much stronger to the point where he could press Palpatine while injured and exhausted (to be fair we don’t know how much Palpatine was holding back but this is still impressive none the less); oh, and all of that was pre OT Vader, Fightsaber said Vader had a massive skill boost after ANH but before ESB and the RotJ novel and comic say “his power has been greater than its ever been.” Dooku ragdolled Kenobi via using all of his Force power and calling energy from across the universe NOT his blade skill! Heck he himself was terrified of Kenobi’s style. While Vader only used his blade skill against old Ben without even trying to use the Force on him so no, this ain’t a fair comparison. And you must be out of your mind if you seriously think “Padwan Obi Wan is > Vader.” And where’s your evidence that Kenobi didn’t train with the Force or keep himself in shape while in exile because both the comics and Kenobi novel seem to disagree.

February 8th 2020, 4:35 pm

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@IG wrote:

Where in the novel? I do recall a quote within some novel that Kenobi went back to training or something with his lightsaber, but for the life of me I can't recall if it was that novel or something else.

Though TFU CG also supports that Kenobi did train both in The Force and continuing to practice his lightsaber skills.

February 8th 2020, 4:50 pm

Zenwolf wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@IG wrote:

Where in the novel? I do recall a quote within some novel that Kenobi went back to training or something with his lightsaber, but for the life of me I can't recall if it was that novel or something else.

Though TFU CG also supports that Kenobi did train both in The Force and continuing to practice his lightsaber skills.

No, it had him talking to Qui Gon and meditating on the Force to become a better Jedi Master. When did the TFU CG say that? The Death Star novel says and I quote “he still has some skill” so yes it’s entirely possible for him to have practiced.

February 8th 2020, 6:44 pm

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@IG wrote:

Where in the novel? I do recall a quote within some novel that Kenobi went back to training or something with his lightsaber, but for the life of me I can't recall if it was that novel or something else.

Though TFU CG also supports that Kenobi did train both in The Force and continuing to practice his lightsaber skills.

No, it had him talking to Qui Gon and meditating on the Force to become a better Jedi Master. When did the TFU CG say that? The Death Star novel says and I quote “he still has some skill” so yes it’s entirely possible for him to have practiced.

...Well damn, when you put "kept himself in shape" I was figuring I missed something within the novel...or another novel I overlooked. ...Bah guess I'm thinking about something else then.

Anyway here's the TFU CG quote.

Finally,a few Jedi choose to fade away into the backdrop of the galaxy, biding their time until they can act. They do not abandon their lives as Jedi, but they do not actively seek to draw the Empire's attention. Both Yoda and Kenobi choose this life, as does the Togruta Jedi Shaak Ti. By retreating into the shadows, these individuals ensure that the Empire's Jedi hunters do not find them allowing them to prepare for a time in the future when they will once again step onto the galactic stage. These Jedi spend their days honing their skills in the Force, meditating and practicing their lightsaber techniques.

- TFU Campaign Guide

February 8th 2020, 6:48 pm

@Zenwolf Nice find.

February 8th 2020, 7:20 pm

Thank you @Zen.

February 8th 2020, 7:42 pm

@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Vader in ESB is said to be “at the height of his powers.” Considering he was a Dark Lord of the Sith during the Mustafar duel, this should mean ESB Vader is above RotS Anakin.

No, they’re likely referring to the suited Vader, in the RotS novel it’s said “he still thought of himself as Anakin” while he was burning. Even if they’re referring to the Pre Suit Vader then remember he was completely toying with Luke which is implied in the movie so no Luke does not scale to Mustifar Vader at all, heck that Luke likely would have simply been Force choked by the burnt Vader before he got the life support suit or any medical treatment for his injuries.

February 8th 2020, 7:56 pm

vader solos

February 8th 2020, 10:39 pm

The lord of hunger wrote:vader solos

As does Luke

February 9th 2020, 12:11 am

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Vader in ESB is said to be “at the height of his powers.” Considering he was a Dark Lord of the Sith during the Mustafar duel, this should mean ESB Vader is above RotS Anakin.

No, they’re likely referring to the suited Vader, in the RotS novel it’s said “he still thought of himself as Anakin” while he was burning. Even if they’re referring to the Pre Suit Vader then remember he was completely toying with Luke which is implied in the movie so no Luke does not scale to Mustifar Vader at all, heck that Luke likely would have simply been Force choked by the burnt Vader before he got the life support suit or any medical treatment for his injuries.

Man, you really need to learn to read usernames instead of going off of profile images. Once again, you've mistaken me for Lorenzo.

Anyway, to address your point, I disagree. Shadows of the Empire confirms Vader had been trying to defeat Luke, and yet Luke put up a good fight. We see within the movie that ESB Luke was capable of driving Vader back off of the carbon freezing platform, and Luke was also capable of landing a strike on Vader's shoulder. It's inaccurate to say Vader was "toying with" Luke, when Shadows of the Empire confirmed Luke "strongly opposed" Vader in that duel.

As for whether or not the "Height of his powers" quote includes RotS Anakin, I fail to see why it wouldn't. Anakin was Darth Vader on Mustafar, and the quote itself doesn't stipulate that it's only referring to the height of suited Vader's powers. Honestly, I'm unclear as to why you took issue with this one particular part of my post, considering I posted 3 other sources that explicitly tell us OT Vader is more powerful than Anakin, with two of them outright comparing Mustafar Vader to ANH Vader during his duel with Obi-Wan.

Now, as for how this ties in with Luke, I never tried to make the claim in my prior post that ESB Luke scales to Mustafar Vader. But now that you've brought it up, I may as well mention Shadows of the Empire again. In that novel, Vader directly compares ESB Luke to Anakin, and believes Luke to actually be more powerful.

Do I actually believe ESB Luke could beat Anakin? Well, that's a topic for another thread. But that's at least one major source which George Lucas was heavily involved in which claims the two are at least comparable.

February 9th 2020, 11:42 pm

Underachiever599 wrote:Vader has all the skill of Anakin because he is Anakin. Yes, he had to go through an adjustment period because of the cybernetics. But as someone whose father has a prosthetic, I can tell you with absolute certainty that it doesn’t take long for a human to adjust to a real-world prosthetic limb, much less a prosthetic limb with as much functionality as the ones in Star Wars. We see evidence of this in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Early on in the novel, he’s struggling in a duel he should easily be winning. This is due to him still adjusting to his prosthetics. But by the end of the novel, he’s able to rather easily duel with several formidable Jedi with no problem. He’d already adjusted in that short of a time frame.

Also, don’t lump technical skill and augmentation into the same category. Augmentation is an element of power, which is a totally different discussion. Yes, both are important to combative ability, but skill is a distinctly separate factor. You yourself gave a perfect example, with Cin Drallig. Extremely skilled, arguably one of the most skilled duelists in the entire Jedi Order. But he pales in combative ability compared to many of the top tier Jedi, due to having less available power.

So, my claim that Vader has all the knowledge and skill of Anakin still stands, whether or not Vader matches Anakin in terms of power (which, he does, as I will show below).

Augmentation is a subset of skill though. Your skill with the blade takes into account augmentation, technical skill and experience (though the latter is somewhat tied to technical skill anyway). So ESB Luke gave Vader a hell of a fight, and it was only his "much greater experience" that gave him the edge; so Luke is almost as skilled as Vader, even though he lacks the experience and the technical skill Vader possesses. That doesn't change the fact that's he's almost as skilled as Vader. So, augmentation and power is a subset of overall skill with a lightsaber.

Anakin clearly wasn't as technically skilled as Cin Drallig, but he was more skilled than Drallig, because Drallig's better technical skill and experience paled in comparison to Anakin's power and augmentation, which bumped his overall skill to well above Drallig. And of course, Anakin's overall skill with the blade was more disproportionate thanks to his power than any other Jedi; and guess what? He lost the ability to tap into that power when he lost three limbs and got put in a life-support suit.

Nobody is arguing Vader isn't very technically skilled, but (1) power/augmentation is weighted a lot more favourably when taking into account overall skill (which Vader lost a lot of) and (2) there's no proof Vader has more technical skill than Dooku in the first place.

Underachiever599 wrote:Beware the Sith: “Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.”

Vader is outright said to be more powerful in ANH than he had been in RotS. And logically, more experienced, after spending nearly two decades hunting Jedi.

Jedi Battles: “This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.”

A second source that confirms ANH Vader is stronger than RotS Mustafar Vader.

Fightsaber: “In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.”

Vader in ESB is said to be “at the height of his powers.” Considering he was a Dark Lord of the Sith during the Mustafar duel, this should mean ESB Vader is above RotS Anakin.

Return of the Jedi Novel: “His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.”

Self explanatory.

How many more sources do you want? I can keep going, but this post is already getting pretty long. Seriously, it seems like the general consensus of several sources is that Vader by the time of the OT is more powerful than Anakin. Even George’s quote around Vader being 80% of Sidious doesn’t say that Vader lost power when he was put in the suit. George claims Vader’s power was curbed and he lost the ability to become twice as powerful as Sidious. He never says that Anakin grew weaker, just that Anakin lost potential.

1./ This is a section of Insider where Pablo Hidalgo is speaking on behalf of Lucas, saying "As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess."; and "In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films."

Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.

--Insider 86

2./ Considering Luke is the equal of Vader not just as a lightsaber combatant but as a Force user, this quote's contrast of Luke being not very powerful relative to Yoda is very telling. Your claim is that Vader is more powerful than he ever was, including when he was on par with Yoda and Sidious in power as KFV (and arguably even more powerful), so the implication from you is that Luke would be superior to ROTS Sidious, Yoda, Mace Windu and Anakin. However, this quote explains that Luke is nowhere near as powerful as Yoda, and being incapable of standing his own against Sidious' Force lightning is a very clear indicator of such.

Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

--Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader

3./ Vader's injuries "greatly diminished his ability to use the Force"; note that (1) this has no time constraint, so this applies to ROTJ as well and (2) it's not talking about his potential, but applicable power. Thus as of ROTJ, Vader's ability to use the Force is still "greatly diminished" relative to when he was Anakin.

[left]An epic duel made impossible by time. The fully grown Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker crosses lightsabers with Anakin Skywalker before his brutal defeat on Mustafar. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers.

--Star Wars Head-To-Head

4./ Anakin is at the peak of his powers before being in the suit.

Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

--George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary

5./ Lucas says he's lost "a lot of power of the Force"; in other words, he lost a lot of the power he had as Anakin.

Dooku vs Vader and Luke - Page 2 Darth_10

6./ Read the last sentence very carefully. It says Vader remains strong in the Force despite the fact that they were "drastically reduced", and that this applies "for the rest of his life." Thus, his powers are drastically reduced and therefore inferior to Anakin's "for the rest of his life."

---

So there's clearly sources on both sides of the fence, however the side saying Vader < Anakin wins out for a couple of reasons. For one, Lucas retcons any contradictory material, and he's made himself very clear on the matter. Hidalgo in an official Q&A also echoes the same reasoning. Heck, I refrain from appealing to incredulity, but the scaling you're pushing is that everyone megascaled above the ROTS titans.

As for the Lucas "80%" quote, Lucas also said that Sidious could have one-shot killed Luke in ROTJ who's the Force equal of Vader, so even if Lucas was being mathematically accurate and giving an accurate gauge (he wasn't) being 80% of the emperor is still a ragdoll gap, and we know that being able to tear through someone's Force barrier (a proper ragdoll) is disproportionately difficult.

Underachiever599 wrote:Fair enough.

Concession accepted.

Underachiever599 wrote: Still, even if he’s not quite as familiar with Dooku’s style as he once was, Vader would at least have a solid rough idea of how to deal with Dooku’s style. Meanwhile Dooku would be walking into the fight effectively blind, given Vader’s complete retooling of his fighting style.

Fails to be relevant since Dooku is more powerful.

Underachiever599 wrote:Dooku has more years, but Vader has more applicable combat experience. Dooku spent, what, seven decades studying in a temple? With only a handful of missions involving active combat? Then another ten years organizing a political movement which likely didn’t require him to do much fighting. It wasn’t until the outbreak of the Clone Wars that Dooku actually saw relatively frequent action, and even then he mostly operated behind the scenes. Meanwhile, Anakin spent the entirety of the Clone Wars fighting on the front lines, giving him more combat experience than Dooku in the same 3 year period. On top of that, Vader spent 19 years actively hunting and killing Jedi, and 4 years fighting an all-out war against the Rebel Alliance. That’s 26 years of non-stop combat experience, compared to 3 full years of semi-regular combat and 80 years of very, very little combat on Dooku’s part.

Dooku’s experience edge against Vader is almost entirely academic. If Anakin was able to overcome that experience edge in the handful of years he’d spent as a Jedi, there’s no reason Vader shouldn’t be well above that after an additional 23 years of experience, during which Vader is explicitly said to have grown more powerful than Anakin had been.

I've already addressed these points with Lorenzo. Does sparring not count as combat experience? This is just clear head-canon dictating your position. I guess Dooku's numerous swordsman quotes as a Jedi aren't relevant because he never fought a Dark Jedi or Sith in combat? Yeah no. Sparring is just as viable. Sidious got his skills from sparring with Plagueis and Maul. Heck, even Qui-Gon was able to leverage his experience to help him stand against Maul despite having about the same credentials as Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat training (training at the temple, handful of active combat missions). The idea that Vader has more experience with a lightsaber than Dooku due to fighting fodder Jedi during the dark times is unsubstantiated and absurd.

February 11th 2020, 8:20 pm

Underachiever599 wrote:

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Vader in ESB is said to be “at the height of his powers.” Considering he was a Dark Lord of the Sith during the Mustafar duel, this should mean ESB Vader is above RotS Anakin.

No, they’re likely referring to the suited Vader, in the RotS novel it’s said “he still thought of himself as Anakin” while he was burning. Even if they’re referring to the Pre Suit Vader then remember he was completely toying with Luke which is implied in the movie so no Luke does not scale to Mustifar Vader at all, heck that Luke likely would have simply been Force choked by the burnt Vader before he got the life support suit or any medical treatment for his injuries.

Man, you really need to learn to read usernames instead of going off of profile images. Once again, you've mistaken me for Lorenzo.

Anyway, to address your point, I disagree. Shadows of the Empire confirms Vader had been trying to defeat Luke, and yet Luke put up a good fight. We see within the movie that ESB Luke was capable of driving Vader back off of the carbon freezing platform, and Luke was also capable of landing a strike on Vader's shoulder. It's inaccurate to say Vader was "toying with" Luke, when Shadows of the Empire confirmed Luke "strongly opposed" Vader in that duel.

As for whether or not the "Height of his powers" quote includes RotS Anakin, I fail to see why it wouldn't. Anakin was Darth Vader on Mustafar, and the quote itself doesn't stipulate that it's only referring to the height of suited Vader's powers. Honestly, I'm unclear as to why you took issue with this one particular part of my post, considering I posted 3 other sources that explicitly tell us OT Vader is more powerful than Anakin, with two of them outright comparing Mustafar Vader to ANH Vader during his duel with Obi-Wan.

Now, as for how this ties in with Luke, I never tried to make the claim in my prior post that ESB Luke scales to Mustafar Vader. But now that you've brought it up, I may as well mention Shadows of the Empire again. In that novel, Vader directly compares ESB Luke to Anakin, and believes Luke to actually be more powerful.

Do I actually believe ESB Luke could beat Anakin? Well, that's a topic for another thread. But that's at least one major source which George Lucas was heavily involved in which claims the two are at least comparable.

Sorry for that again.

I do see why it wouldn’t because Vader with and without the suit were very different in terms of personality and even Lucas has said RotS Anakin and Vader were 2 separate beings. I would post my sources to show Anakin’s superiority to his burnt self but it looks like someone else has already done it. In Shadows of the Empire Vader said Luke’s potential was comparable to Anakin. And where was it confirmed Vader was trying to beat Luke? Because it looked like he was toying with him and still won.

February 11th 2020, 10:28 pm

1./ This is a section of Insider where Pablo Hidalgo is speaking on behalf of Lucas, saying "As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess."; and "In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films."

@Archibald Sorry to cut in, but I felt I need to clarify some of this stuff.

Your scan then goes on to say this: "Luke, though not as skilful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels, is still a formidable opponent, and he is very strong in the Force." By this, Hidalgo is saying that "random factors" like luck - and, logically, constant factors like physicals, power, etc - can all shift the outcome of a battle, which is what makes Luke able to fight Vader (his rage amp plus his luck plus the plot backing him). There's no reason someone like Vader, who has comparable power to Dooku and is much physically stronger, can't use these to compensate for his inferior technical skill if he were to fight the Count.

Everything from that post is in reference to technique: skill and acrobatics can only carry you so far. As Hidalgo says, "random factors can always tip the balance", so why can't constant factors like Vader's far superior strength and comparable raw power (alongside his fairly impressive speed) tip the battle, so to speak?

To put it another way, who's going to win: Bruce Lee or a 6 foot, 196 lb man who is physically much stronger, even if he's less technically skilled?

Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.

You sure that's from Insider 86? Skimmed through Hidalgo's Q&A and can't find it. Not doubting, just confused.

2./ Considering Luke is the equal of Vader not just as a lightsaber combatant but as a Force user,

The quotes claiming Luke = Vader in power are muddled and fairly lacking in context. The ones that claim they're equals fail to mention that this is rage amped Luke:

Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady
with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it
was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life.
Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke
didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He
engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his
cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so
overpowering as to totally obliterate all other
considerations.

He had the power; the choice was his.
And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an
ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy
them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.
It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did
not swoon. Nor did he recoil. He took one step forward.

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's
consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded
by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in
the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was
honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected
circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt
humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction,
which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then
the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger.
And now he wanted revenge.

These things were mirrored, each facet, by the young Jedi
who now towered above him. The Emperor, watching joyously,
saw this, and goaded Luke on to revel in his Darkness. 'Use
your aggressive feelings, boy! Yes! Let the hate flow
through you! Become one with it, let it nourish you!'
Luke faltered a moment - then realized what was happening.
He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What
should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark
clarity - gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma.
Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.
He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried
to drive the hatred from his being.

From the very beginning of the fight (what we see here and in the film, the two highest sources of authority), Luke is heavily drawing upon the dark side. Even before the fight, he's feeling it:

The situation was degenerating fast, from Luke's
perspective. Defeat after defeat was being piled on his
head. How much could he take? And now another surprise
coming? There seemed to be no end to the rank deeds
Palpatine could carry out against the galaxy. Slowly,
infinitesimally, Luke raised his hand in the direction of
the lightsaber.

The Emperor continued. 'From here, young Skywalker, you
will witness the final destruction of the Alliance - and the
end of your insignificant rebellion.'

Luke was in torment. He raised his hand further. He
realized both Palpatine and Vader were watching him. He
lowered his hand, lowered his level of anger, tried to
restore his previous calm, to find his center to see what it
was he needed to do.

Even before the duel, Luke is drawing upon the dark side and is operating pretty far above his normal levels. This is not base Luke, which is what is being talking about here (Luke when he's trying to deflect the lightning)

this quote's contrast of Luke being not very powerful relative to Yoda is very telling.

Not really. Power is an incredibly vague term, and can refer to different attributes, including skill and mastery with said power. Luke can be "not very powerful" next to Yoda (despite being stated to be very strong in the Force by Hidalgo in your other source) because he lacks any experience or further mastery needed to block lightning with tutaminis or a Force barrier (which, considering how difficult lightning is to block without mastery, is most likely). That doesn't mean Luke's raw power is "not very powerful", just that overall he's not close to Yoda. Likewise, this does not extend to Vader.

Your claim is that Vader is more powerful than he ever was, including when he was on par with Yoda and Sidious in power as KFV (and arguably even more powerful), so the implication from you is that Luke would be superior to ROTS Sidious, Yoda, Mace Windu and Anakin.

No idea why he claimed this, tbh. Unless he was talking about suited Vader, this is factually wrong.

However, this quote explains that Luke is nowhere near as powerful as Yoda, and being incapable of standing his own against Sidious' Force lightning is a very clear indicator of such.

No, it's an indicator of a lack of mastery over said power, hence him not being able to bring his power to bear in defence against that lightning and thus being "not very powerful" compared to Yoda, who's far more skilled and masterful.

Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

3./ Vader's injuries "greatly diminished his ability to use the Force"; note that (1) this has no time constraint, so this applies to ROTJ as well and

Yes it can, and it can also just apply to post-ROTS, hence why it talks about the lightsaber duel and how it mortally wounded him. IIRC, there are sources saying ROTJ Vader got over most of the limitations of his suit and injuries. Will try and find them later.

(2) it's not talking about his potential, but applicable power. Thus as of ROTJ, Vader's ability to use the Force is still "greatly diminished" relative to when he was Anakin.

No, it's saying they were "greatly diminished" compared to KFV, not Anakin. It was KFV who was injured on Mustafar, not Anakin. In comparison to KFV, yes his powers are a lot weaker, but nothing about that would stop even post-ROTS Vader's raw power from dropping from equalling ROTS Sidious to, say Dooku, which in itself is a significant gap.

Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.

--George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary

5./ Lucas says he's lost "a lot of power of the Force"; in other words, he lost a lot of the power he had as Anakin.

KFV for the former, and the latter part is explicitly talking about potential, which is irrelevant. ROTJ Vader can still be > Anakin in power.

6./ Read the last sentence very carefully. It says Vader remains strong in the Force despite the fact that they were "drastically reduced", and that this applies "for the rest of his life." Thus, his powers are drastically reduced and therefore inferior to Anakin's "for the rest of his life."

Please clarify if you mean Anakin or KFV, because it's clearly referring to them in the context of the post-Mustafar (KFV) period.

So there's clearly sources on both sides of the fence, however the side saying Vader < Anakin wins out for a couple of reasons. For one, Lucas retcons any contradictory material, and he's made himself very clear on the matter. Hidalgo in an official Q&A also echoes the same reasoning. Heck, I refrain from appealing to incredulity, but the scaling you're pushing is that everyone megascaled above the ROTS titans.

Vader will never scale above the ROTS titans as he's capped under them by ROTJ. However, it's 100% possible he's > Anakin since KFV >> base Anakin, who's, what, Dooku level?

As for the Lucas "80%" quote, Lucas also said that Sidious could have one-shot killed Luke in ROTJ who's the Force equal of Vader,

Again, base Luke =/= the Luke who matched Vader.

so even if Lucas was being mathematically accurate and giving an accurate gauge (he wasn't) being 80% of the emperor is still a ragdoll gap,

No, you're basing that off scaling from base Luke that doesn't apply to Vader. 80% of ROTS Sidious is vague, I agree, but it at least gives us the sense that while close to ROTS Sidious, he'll never be able to beat him.

and we know that being able to tear through someone's Force barrier (a proper ragdoll) is disproportionately difficult.

Which we can't even be sure he can do to Vader, only to base Luke.

Fails to be relevant since Dooku is more powerful.

This is based on faulty scaling.