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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 8th 2020, 10:59 am
@Meatpants wrote:I wouldn’t say Kenobi’s training was *vastly* inferior.

Yeah it was lol

Maul spent his entire life training ruthlessly to become the most perfect weapon imaginable, in every possible way. His master subjected him to the most ruthless training imaginable to increase his abilities in all possible angles that involve combat. In addition, Maul had access to the resources of the Banite archive in its entirety, an archive that rivaled the Jedi archive on Coruscant, except that it is more concentrated than the Jedi archives on producing the best Sith or the most powerful being possible( the Jedi archives have a lot more trivia and random information and more closely resemble a type that has all types of knowledge, not just knowledge on the force, that the Banite archives are clearly more dedicated to) and Maul was given access to it by Sidious

Then you just have the sheer intensity of his training. He is credited as being the best trained Sith in all of the history. Obi Wan gives several appearances as an apprentice and the base intensity is not close. Not even in the same league. This is obviously to be expected because Jedi training is a lot milder than Sith training( hence should basically any Jedi be evenly matched with a Sith, and have similar ages then the Jedi should have higher potential) and Obi Wan's training is no exception. Maul is also trained to be the best weapon possible-his training is mostly "concentrated" on the theme that this person should become the pinnacle expression of the typical force warrior( not even Sidious's training was as concentrated) by Palpatine

Compare this to Obi Wan-not even Knights have access to the top level force knowledge. To the extent that, Masters by the sheer nature of their knowledge, can unlock powerful secrets that even "Knights" can only dream of comprehending. The ROTS novel even states that there is an entire section of knowledge restricted and only to be accessed by Masters

Obi Wan being only a padawan should have even more restrictions than that. Also, Obi Wan isn't trained to be the pinnacle of the Jedi by maximizing his power like Maul is, he and all Jedi are given the same training.

Most importantly though, Maul has spent 22 years learning and harnessing the power of the dark side. Even minutes of exposure to the dark side can make a noticeable difference to your power, but Maul has basically lived throughout his life with it. His growth rate is going to be much higher than Kenobi's simply because Kenobi has spent the same time mastering the light

So yeah, you have a massive chasm. Even a normal Sith would likely be better trained coming to battle than Obi Wan would, only because they are Sith. Maul is a Banite Sith, meaning much higher quality training than normal Sith, and is canonically the best and mostly highly trained Banite Sith in history. Obi Wan has nothing to mark his training as being better than any other Jedi, he is just much more talented( corroborated by Jinn and Yoda many times)

Obviously you can argue that Jinn is a high level master and so Obi Wan has an edge based on that but I doubt it is high compared to other Jedi. Jinn as a master also can't come remotely close to Sidious so even that is not any comparable variable.
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 8th 2020, 11:23 am
Glad to have you back lotl
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LOTL

Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 8th 2020, 11:55 am
@Meatpants wrote:Glad to have you back lotl

Missed the sarcasm
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 8th 2020, 12:28 pm
<3
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LOTL

Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 9th 2020, 3:03 am
This is quite amusing. Most people say that Kenobi has higher potential in this thread but the minute the narrative changes to Sidious all then say that Maul beats him easily

Like, put Sidious aside people. Then think. What caused you to say that Kenobi has comparable potential? Obviously their performances relative to each other and their training gap, age similarity etc.

Basically all the battles they have been in, their ability stacked and easily comparable to each other by all the history they have

So, putting critical thinking into place, why would all of that become irrelevant based on an offhand comment by Yoda, someone who has never even met Sidious and has absolutely no idea about his potential, and he could just as easily be emphasizing Sidious's power to make Obi Wan steer clear based on reasons outlined by BoD?
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 10th 2020, 4:18 am
@LOTL wrote:This is quite amusing. Most people say that Kenobi has higher potential in this thread but the minute the narrative changes to Sidious all then say that Maul beats him easily

Like, put Sidious aside people. Then think. What caused you to say that Kenobi has comparable potential? Obviously their performances relative to each other and their training gap, age similarity etc.

Basically all the battles they have been in, their ability stacked and easily comparable to each other by all the history they have

So, putting critical thinking into place, why would all of that become irrelevant based on an offhand comment by Yoda, someone who has never even met Sidious and has absolutely no idea about his potential, and he could just as easily be emphasizing Sidious's power to make Obi Wan steer clear based on reasons outlined by BoD?

Their hype.
AlakanSpacewalker
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 11th 2020, 8:24 pm
Maul. Obi Wan was at his full potential during the late Clone Wars and still struggled against a Maul who wasn’t that much stronger than his TFM self and was nowhere near his full potential since he was only trained as a weapon and even that training was incomplete since he “died.”
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 11th 2020, 8:44 pm
@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Maul. Obi Wan was at his full potential during the late Clone Wars and still struggled against a Maul who wasn’t that much stronger than his TFM self and was nowhere near his full potential since he was only trained as a weapon and even that training was incomplete since  he “died.”
That wasn't full potential Kenobi.
O-Siri
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 11th 2020, 9:58 pm
RotS Kenobi was likely very close to his peak potential. If he wasn't a late bloomer and had the same experience and skills at 25, when he still had youth and less wear and tear he probably could have been even better, but then so would most people. RotS Kenobi likely wasn't the absolute peak of his physical potential but mentally speaking it's hard to imagine him any better.
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 11th 2020, 10:52 pm
@LOTL wrote:Or you can just look at their TPM battle. He is close to Maul, using the same energy source, yet his training is vastly inferior and his age is similar to Maul

Maul likely has superior potential but the notion that he stomps is nonsensical

No they weren't. Maul was comfortably outmaneuvering Kenobi and Jinn when all combatants were fresh, fully prepared, and on neutral ground in the open hangar:



TPM Script wrote:The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once,
flipping into the air, outmaneuvering them at every turn


When Kenobi fought Maul in the reactor chamber he was fighting with reckless abandon. :




TPM Novelization wrote:He struck at the Sith Lord with his lightsaber as if his own safety meant nothing, lost in a red haze of rage and frustration, consumed by his grief for Qui-Gon and his failure to prevent his friend's fall.





Bane toyed with Sirak and Sirak is indisputably superior to his lackey Llokay, yet when his sister was killed before his eyes he went into a state of extreme rage much like Kenobi and actually drove Bane back with wild reckless abandon, a Bane who is superior to the one that played with Sirak mind you:

Path of Destruction wrote:"She crumpled to the floor, dazed. Before she had a chance to rise, Githany lashed out with her whip and ended the Zabrak female's life.
Bane barely had time to register her death before Llokay was on him. The red-skinned Zabrak was overmatched, but his grief and rage empowered him, and he drove his much larger opponent back with a brutal series of desperate slashes and strikes." - Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

And that's a Sith, from an elite academy who are already conditioned to use their rage, just imagine how much greater boost it would have on a regular athlete who never used steroids before.

And even despite that Maul is still the stronger of the two and his conditioned state of rage is superior to Kenobi's circumstantial state of rage:

TPM Novelization wrote:The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.
And lets not forget that Maul sidelined for over a decade, wasting much of his prime, and only a few months to retool, was still on even terms with a late CW Kenobi who was close to his peak. I think it's quite clear who has the most natural ability.
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LOTL

Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 12th 2020, 12:54 am
No they weren't. Maul was comfortably outmaneuvering Kenobi and Jinn when all combatants were fresh, fully prepared, and on neutral ground in the open hangar:

Not the same as "easily beating them" at all. Maul committed the entire layout to both "mental and muscle" memory. Obviously he is going to be outmanuevering them easily. It would be a bad showing on his part should he "not" have

When Kenobi fought Maul in the reactor chamber he was fighting with reckless abandon. :

Yeah so?

The comparison with the Sith is bogus at best, absolutely non-applicable at worst. The grief and rage empowered the Sith because they are Sith and conditioned to use it. Obi Wan is a Jedi and the combination of those specific emotional factors have always led Jedi to be worse off than they were. Only pure distilled rage empowers Jedi more than their base state. Look no more than Anakin, Luke


I have a google docs dedicated to making this argument that I am going to use on Meatpants so I'll not pursue this point even should you contest it at this point

But this maybe should be enough at this point:


Qui-Gon was hoping that the physical activity would help his Padawan release some tension - and piece things together in his mind. Regardless, focusing on something entirely different would be a good change of pace.

Obi-Wan seemed reluctant as they exited the building. But once he was outside and facing his Master, his eyes flashed with an intensity that surprised Qui-Gon. The young Jedi ignited his lightsaber, and Qui-Gon did the same.

The two Jedi circled each other slowly with their lightsabers raised, as if in a dance. Obi-Wan moved gracefully, his eyes locked on Qui-Gon's. It was as if he were challenging him to do something, to make the first move.

Qui-Gon did. He brought his lightsaber down in a powerful strike - once, twice, three times. Obi-Wan was there to block each blow. The graceful arcs he made with his blade were confident and accurate. His eyes never left his Master's face.

Qui-Gon suddenly realized that his Padawan's lightsaber skills had improved significantly in the past months. His physical energy was exceptional - young and true. Obi-Wan was fighting like a Jedi Knight.

Not to mention trusting his instincts, Qui-Gon thought wryly. He suddenly had the feeling that one day the boy would beat him. And that such a day might not be so far away.

The two Jedi dodged and weaved with incredible speed, their ignited blue and green blades blurs of energy in the Vorzyd night. But behind them pulsed something even stronger-Jedi will. Obi-Wan wanted to be treated as an equal, Qui-Gon knew. But while he had grownup a lot in the last four years, he was only seventeen. He still had much to learn.

With each stroke, Qui-Gon pushed Obi-Wan farther back. It was not terribly difficult. But even as he advanced on his Padawan, Qui-Gon had the feeling that Obi-Wan was allowing him to do it - that the Padawan was somehow in control.

He was. In a flash of blinding green light Obi-Wan swung, ducked, and turned. His blue eyes flashed and a small smile turned up the corners of his lips. He now had the upper hand.

Qui-Gon was accustomed to this kind of haughty strategy coming from an enemy. But it was slightly unnerving to see it in his own Padawan learner. And yet it had worked.

As if picking up on his Master's thoughts, Obi-Wan stepped up the pace an additional notch. Now he was swinging repeatedly and with phenomenal strength, pushing Qui-Gon in a wide arc around the courtyard. His green blade was a bright blur in the darkness, and his entire body moved with certainty and empowerment.

Qui-Gon had to concentrate - hard - to keep ahead of his Padawan. They had fought side by side often enough for him to be able to guess what Obi-Wan would do next. Of course, the same was true of Obi-Wan. And once in a while the young Jedi blocked a blow so quickly that Qui-Gon knew the boy had known exactly what was coming.

With a flash and a buzz, the lightsabers met in a raised cross. Both men were breathless, sweating from the exertion. This had been no lighthearted spar.

Obi-Wan looked up at his Master, his eyes bright and intense. It was clear that he had not actually won the match, but that he had stated his case firmly. Something had changed between them. Obi-Wan had taken yet another step toward becoming a Jedi Knight, and Qui-Gon was closer than ever to letting him go.


JA-The Threat Within

Despite the conclusions you can make, some things are very absolute

1. The case was Obi Wan to be looked by Qui Gon as an "equal" as underlined and that he had "made his case strongly", meaning that though he hasn't "surpassed" Qui Gon yet, he has made a strong case to be treated as an equal by Qui Gon

2. Qui Gon has to concentrate "hard" just to keep ahead of Obi Wan. Note, the "hard" is emphasized quite clearly by giving it its own place by keeping it in hyphens meaning that that part of the sentence is important to the author and not just put in that place on a whim. Meaning Qui Gon absolutely cannot, at the very least, stomp Obi Wan at this point in time

3. In this book, Obi Wan is only 17. He has just been 4 years as a padawan and has yet 8 more to go to TPM. Meanwhille, Qui Gon is a Jedi Master that is 52 years old, and if he hasn't hit his peak then he at the very least has gotten to the point of diminishing returns and Obi Wan's potential is obviously much more than his

So Obi Wan is going to grow much more than he will. Actually by TPM, Obi Wan is already faster than Qui Gon and has higher durability and stamina than him, so in many ways Obi Wan has already surpassed him.

Qui Gon is still superior because his sheer technical skill and experience and knowledge on the force is better and in the case of his skill, noticeably better than him. Yet overall, Qui Gon cannot stomp Obi Wan at 17( I would go so much as to say they were loosely comparable but then, you have to be a bit conservative), so Obi Wan should logically be quite close to him at 25, and this is supported by him already surpassing Qui Gon's speed, durability and stamina

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t210-qui-gon-vs-darth-maul-on-tatooine-a-source-analysis

Check that out to see how Maul compares to Qui Gon

Hence it is evident that the rage didn't "empower him vastly" at all lmao. I have a much more detailed and much bigger argument than this but obviously I cannot make it due to that being the part of a debate.

And even despite that Maul is still the stronger of the two and his conditioned state of rage is superior to Kenobi's circumstantial state of rage:

The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow.


This hurts your point though. This simply means that Obi Wan, while emotional, is still not as emotional as Maul, and as driven as Maul is then.



Maul is driven so crazily that "his own determination" surpasses Obi Wan's determination, means Maul draws more of the dark side's power than Obi Wan is drawing, or to say it bluntly "Maul is more emotional than Obi Wan"


The fact that Obi Wan is still able to match him, despite evidently being "less" emotional than him.



Note, just in case you mean that the entirety of Maul's state is superior to Kenobi's state in terms of their abilities then that is the most asinine assertion I have seen yet.




driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan.


Frenzy:

a state or period of uncontrolled excitement or wild behaviour.


So Maul's "uncontrolled excitement and wild attitude" surpassed Obi Wan's "uncontrolled excitement and wild attitude", meaning Maul draws more on his power than Obi Wan does




To use an analogy


"A manages to get more marks than B, and is driven by a desire to get marks that surpasses B's desire to get marks"


Meaning B's capability is lesser than A? No, because A is simply more driven. So, Maul's emotions are more heightened than Obi Wan's emotions, not that Maul is superior( he is but not because of that sentence) then



And lets not forget that Maul sidelined for over a decade, wasting much of his prime, and only a few months to retool, was still on even terms with a late CW Kenobi who was close to his peak. I think it's quite clear who has the most natural ability.

1. Kenobi wasn't close to ROTS Kenobi, who likewise is noticeably lesser than Mustafar Kenobi


2. Even Mustafar Kenobi isn't peak Kenobi. Read the other responses and the case for Kenobi's potential. His growth phase got abruptly cut because of the events in the movie.



3. Maul is a dark sider and has spent two decades mastering it, meaning his growth is going to be much higher than a light sider's growth. Kenobi in late CW is 35/36( he is 37 in ROTS) and Maul is 22 in TPM and by S5 he is "much more powerful" than TPM Maul. This is obviously due to the unique circumstances like him wanting to be a rival to Sidious, so much rage at being cut by Obi Wan, training his own apprentice, and just general anger and motivation on losing so much because he went to Naboo, that would likely not have been there should he have stayed under Sidious


So how much time you want to ascribe to TPM Maul before he becomes "much more powerful" than his base version. 4 years? 5 years? So, hypothetically, you have a 27 year old dark sider vs a 35/36 year old light sider that are evenly matched.



Yeah, I am betting on the light sider's potential. Easily.



Though I have said that I believe that Maul's potential is higher so not sure what the complaints are. The only argument is that they are comparable in that sense
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LOTL

Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 12th 2020, 12:55 am
@O-Siri wrote:RotS Kenobi was likely very close to his peak potential. If he wasn't a late bloomer and had the same experience and skills at 25, when he still had youth and less wear and tear he probably could have been even better, but then so would most people. RotS Kenobi likely wasn't the absolute peak of his physical potential but mentally speaking it's hard to imagine him any better.

No, lol. Read the other arguments on the thread
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 12th 2020, 10:53 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@LOTL


Not the same as "easily beating them" at all. Maul committed the entire layout to both "mental and muscle" memory. Obviously he is going to be outmanuevering them easily. It would be a bad showing on his part should he "not" have

I used the that argument in the past too. It doesn't hold up. When Maul was outmaneuvering them and making the Jedi use every skill they had to merely survive and driving them back it was in the open spacious hangar where neither side had the advantage.  Muscle memory is irrelevant when the arena is a wide open space. You could have had the fight take place in the Petranaki arena and he would still be outmaneuvering him ease.


Yeah so? 

So he was performing at a much higher level than he had been previously, when he was being outmaneuvered at every turn, forced to use every skill he needed to survive, his efforts to assume the offensive on perfectly neutral ground being wholly inadequate. 




The comparison with the Sith is bogus at best, absolutely non-applicable at worst. The grief and rage empowered the Sith because they are Sith and conditioned to use it.

Didn't stop Anakin or Luke from gaining a huge boost without conditioning. 



 Obi Wan is a Jedi and the combination of those specific emotional factors have always led Jedi to be worse off than they were.

AotC Kenobi and beyond yes because he's more serene, the two opposite spectrums would just unbalance him. TPM Kenobi is brash and headstrong and rage complements youthful arrogance in fighters like him, Anakin, and Luke. The only thing it weakens is his focus and his ability to defend himself, unlike Maul who finds focus through this sort of fighting.


1. The case was Obi Wan to be looked by Qui Gon as an "equal" as underlined and that he had "made his case strongly", meaning that though he hasn't "surpassed" Qui Gon yet, he has made a strong case to be treated as an equal by Qui Gon

2. Qui Gon has to concentrate "hard" just to keep ahead of Obi Wan. Note, the "hard" is emphasized quite clearly by giving it its own place by keeping it in hyphens meaning that that part of the sentence is important to the author and not just put in that place on a whim. Meaning Qui Gon absolutely cannot, at the very least, stomp Obi Wan at this point in time


He isn't his peer yet though. The same author, Watson, made it clear in her later works that Kenobi isn't in his range in Secrets of the Jedi a few years later:



Secrets of the Jedi wrote:He rolled a Merr-Sonn fragmentation grenade into the center of the room. It exploded immediately, sending shrapnel in all directions. He rolled to a stop, crouching behind a lightweight shield. Qui-Gon felt the air shimmer with the blast, and the shrapnel exploded around him. He leaped in front of Obi-Wan and Siri to protect them. It was hard for even a Jedi Master to deflect grenade shrapnel. It was fast, unpredictable, random. It took all of Qui-Gon and Adi's concentration to block it.


Secrets of the Jedi
takes place in 39 BBY The Threat Within takes place in 40 BBY and both are written by the same author, with SotJ being released later. 



3. In this book, Obi Wan is only 17. He has just been 4 years as a padawan and has yet 8 more to go to TPM. Meanwhille, Qui Gon is a Jedi Master that is 52 years old, and if he hasn't hit his peak then he at the very least has gotten to the point of diminishing returns and Obi Wan's potential is obviously much more than his


Jinn was already a faded flower yes, he had lost a step and was slowing down as early as Final Showdown, four years prior. Jedi tend to physically decline past the age of forty. They only improve from that point on if they haven't reached their mental apex, such as the case in Mace. 

Also the same author wrote The Darth Maul Journal and she makes it clear Jinn is still the stronger of the two by TPM: 



The Darth Maul Journal wrote:"You feel you would have defeated this Jedi?" he asks. "Yes, Master. I felt him tire. I can defeat him. " "Was he bearded?" I nod. "Good. That is Qui-Gon Jinn. He is the stronger of the two. "


Qui Gon is still superior because his sheer technical skill and experience and knowledge on the force is better and in the case of his skill, noticeably better than him

In this book, Obi Wan is only 17. He has just been 4 years as a padawan and has yet 8 more to go to TPM. Meanwhille, Qui Gon is a Jedi Master that is 52 years old, and if he hasn't hit his peak then he at the very least has gotten to the point of diminishing returns and Obi Wan's potential is obviously much more than his

And that's why ABC logic doesn't work. Jinn's experience and ability to read foot work is and advantage over Maul Kenobi doesn't possess. It gives him some fighting chances in close quarters when Maul isn't abusing his agility in a toe-to-toe exchange. Kenobi's advantage over Jinn is youth, speed, athleticism, and more natural talent, but Maul is even younger than Kenobi but the more complete warrior despite this so youth isn't an advantage, more skilled than Jinn, and noticeably more athletic, so Kenobi doesn't have any edge over Maul and thus no real means of hanging with him on neutral ground in his regular mindset where he was being forced back and outmaneuvered at every turn in the spacious open hangar where muscle memory is irrelevant.


So Obi Wan is going to grow much more than he will. Actually by TPM, Obi Wan is already faster than Qui Gon and has higher durability and stamina than him, so in many ways Obi Wan has already surpassed him.

Yes a fully matured 25 year old who's in the prime of his life has better overall physicals than a nearly 60 year old shopworn warrior, save for maybe strength which is the last thing to go in an aging fighter. It's not a point in his favor against Maul who is warrior that is similarly at his physical apex.


Qui Gon is still superior because his sheer technical skill and experience and knowledge on the force is better and in the case of his skill, noticeably better than him. Yet overall, Qui Gon cannot stomp Obi Wan at 17( I would go so much as to say they were loosely comparable but then, you have to be a bit conservative), so Obi Wan should logically be quite close to him at 25, and this is supported by him already surpassing Qui Gon's speed, durability and stamina

Fighters in real life will tell you they don't like to fight with former sparring partners because of the mutual knowledge advantage. Yes I've argued against this in the past but it's true mutual knowledge changes the dynamics significantly. You can argue on the bases of intent, but as I've already pointed out the same author believes Jinn is still the decisive superior a year later. 



I have and you've already seen and replied to my comments in that blog, I obviously disagree with most of it and even if I did it's moot because Jinn's advantages don't apply to Kenobi who's advantages over Jinn are completely rendered moot by Maul's own youth and superior athleticism.



Hence it is evident that the rage didn't "empower him vastly" at all lmao. I have a much more detailed and much bigger argument than this but obviously I cannot make it due to that being the part of a debate.

It did, because prior to Jinn's death Kenobi was being thoroughly outmaneuvered and driven back on perfectly neutral ground with the aid of Jinn. The disparity in performances is proof enough Kenobi with his regular mindset wouldn't be closely matched with Maul. 


This hurts your point though. This simply means that Obi Wan, while emotional, is still not as emotional as Maul, and as driven as Maul is then.

No it doesn't Maul can always psych himself into a frenzy whereas Kenobi's was circumstantial and temporary. Not only that but he burnt out fast while Maul was able to sustain his pace and work rate throughout the entirety of the battle while remaining as fresh as a daisy. 

And Maul can direct his rage, he doesn't let it consume him:

The Darth Maul Journal wrote:A slow rage begins to burn through me. It is a terrible anger, no less fierce because it starts as a kernel of disbelief and then builds. I have never felt anything like it. I know it can consume me. No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Yes, my Master is now my enemy. He is my betrayer. Hatred sears me, hardens me. "Can you make the next leap in logic?" Lord Sidious asks me contemptuously. "Try to focus, Maul. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die. Maul?" The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.

And he can replicate it at will:

The Darth Maul Journal wrote:"Do you feel the hate?" he asks. I nod. "It Is the source of your strength. You still hate me, " he says. "No matter. Today you have delivered yourself into my hands. I have the power of life or death over you, Maul. Someday, you will hold that power over another. It is the honor of the Sith. You will devote yourself to the idea of domination. "




Maul is driven so crazily that "his own determination" surpasses Obi Wan's determination, means Maul draws more of the dark side's power than Obi Wan is drawing, or to say it bluntly "Maul is more emotional than Obi Wan"

Exactly he wants it more than Kenobi. He has greater willpower, determination, and mental toughness and moreover didn't burn out physically or mentally like Kenobi did. Big difference in their physical and mental conditioning there. And he can always work himself into this state without needing a circumstance.


The fact that Obi Wan is still able to match him, despite evidently being "less" emotional than him.

For a few seconds then he burnt out. Maul being the superior warrior remained fresh as ever. 


Note, just in case you mean that the entirety of Maul's state is superior to Kenobi's state in terms of their abilities then that is the most asinine assertion I have seen yet.

Looks like I got you rattled.



So Maul's "uncontrolled excitement and wild attitude" surpassed Obi Wan's "uncontrolled excitement and wild attitude", meaning Maul draws more on his power than Obi Wan does

He does draw more on his power which is why he didn't burn out physically or mentally. 



Meaning B's capability is lesser than A? No, because A is simply more driven. So, Maul's emotions are more heightened than Obi Wan's emotions, not that Maul is superior( he is but not because of that sentence) then
Yes Maul is superior because he is more driven than Kenobi and he has more physical talent, more athletic ability, and better conditioning both physically and mentally. And he can replicate his performance at any moment in time, unlike Kenobi who needs the death of a love one. It's why he was able to outmaneuver and drive back both Jinn and Kenobi in the beginning of the fight when the conditions where neutral. It's why Kenobi isn't close to Maul in the first place, he isn't comparable to him either physically or mentally.


1. Kenobi wasn't close to ROTS Kenobi, who likewise is noticeably lesser than Mustafar Kenobi

He was 37, already a Jedi Master and a master of Soresu, and years into the war. He's already hit his physical and mental sweet spot. The human body begins breaks down at 27, and the mid-thirties are the last years where fighters can attain their physical prime before they hit the decline physically. There's little he could have done to improve at that point onwards mentally. By the time of the Hett fight he was already feeling his own age at forty. Mustafar Kenobi isn't superior to Utapau Kenobi from a physical and mental perspective. Kenobi was hindered, all he did was unhindered himself somewhat when he 'let go'. His emotional turmoil is situational to Anakin because he's a walking guilty trip to him.He isn't weighed down by emotions when he's fighting Dooku, Ventress, Grievous, or the countless battle droids and clone troopers. 


3. Maul is a dark sider and has spent two decades mastering it, meaning his growth is going to be much higher than a light sider's growth. Kenobi in late CW is 35/36( he is 37 in ROTS) and Maul is 22 in TPM and by S5 he is "much more powerful" than TPM Maul. This is obviously due to the unique circumstances like him wanting to be a rival to Sidious, so much rage at being cut by Obi Wan, training his own apprentice, and just general anger and motivation on losing so much because he went to Naboo, that would likely not have been there should he have stayed under Sidious

Source for Maul being "much more powerful than TPM Maul"? We're talking about months man, months. Even steroids won't get you that far so quick. Kenobi's been training for over a decade, if his returns are that slow then he simply doesn't have the same level of natural ability as Maul. 


So how much time you want to ascribe to TPM Maul before he becomes "much more powerful" than his base version. 4 years? 5 years? So, hypothetically, you have a 27 year old dark sider vs a 35/36 year old light sider that are evenly matched.

Three years tops. And give Maul a full decade and he would have likely rivaled Sidious.
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

on February 12th 2020, 11:11 pm
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Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Full potential Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Full potential Darth Maul

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