Suspect Insight Forums

Go down
Gianfi
Gianfi

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 18:43
Darth Plagueis
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 19:24
@EmperorCaedus MP has made a solid case for Plagueis being in the ballpark of the RotS titans in power. Then there's his midi-chlorian manipulation.

_________________
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 New_sig
Corvinus
Corvinus

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 20:50
Plagueis.
avatar
EmperorCaedus
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 20:58
@Azronger As MP’s argument pertains directly to an ongoing SS, I’m not sure if we are allowed to refute it. Until then, there are no cases for Plagueis.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 21:21
honestly, if people are gonna nominate plagueis, i might as well bring in dooku or vader
IG
IG
Level Two
Level Two

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 21:45
Lol at Vader touching Plagueis
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 22:01
@EmperorCaedus wrote:@Azronger As MP’s argument pertains directly to an ongoing SS, I’m not sure if we are allowed to refute it. Until then, there are no cases for Plagueis.

What a cop-out, lol.
avatar
EmperorCaedus
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 22:16
Put a Plagueis argument on this thread then.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 22:36
i doubt that there is a good argument to be made for plagueis here. well, there are good arguments, just not better arguments.
Corvinus
Corvinus

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 23:37
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
The case can be made that we don't actually know how powerful Plagueis was when he was killed. Sidious as of 33 BBY, only a year before that event, didn't know how far behind Plagueis he was, even thinking to himself - and this is an important distinction to make, that it was his own thoughts, as he would have no reason to lie to himself which means we can take this as a fact - that he could be a level or even two levels behind his master:

Darth Plagueis, Pg 270 wrote:Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn’t be certain he had learned all of Plagueis’s secrets—“his sorcerer’s ways,” as the Sun Guards referred to them — including the ability to prevent beings from dying. He sometimes wondered: Was he a level behind? Two levels behind? Such questions were precisely what had driven generations of Sith apprentices ultimately to challenge their Masters. The uncertainty about who was the more powerful. The need to test themselves, to face the definitive trial.

We also know that Plagueis can perceive Maul's speed in 33 BBY, and that Plagueis is, at the very least, in the same speed tier as Sidious at this time based on shared feats. He might even be faster based on his duel with Venamis, which took place in a forest which would have hindered his movement, and was significantly pre-prime:

Darth Plagueis, Pg 74 wrote:The contest took them backward and forward through the trees, across narrow streams, and up onto piles of rocks that were the ruins of an ancient sentry post. Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest’s understory.

This is to say, he can replicate or better what Sidious did to Maul in 32 BBY, which is the year Plagueis died:

Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul wrote:"The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead." 

Now that we have established the disparity between Maul and Plagueis, we can then establish parity with Yoda, via Qui-Gon Jinn. The Jedi Master can last half-a-minute to a minute against a combatant that we know can stomp Maul, and we also know that Qui-Gon at this time is second in the Order only to Yoda in terms of their mastery of Ataru and has been compared to Mace Windu, who through various accolades is Yoda's equal during TPM:


Jedi Academy: Training Manual wrote:Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable.



Star Wars Episode I: Jedi Power Battles: Prima's Official Strategy Guide wrote:His fighting style is graceful and precise, albeit a bit deadlier than Qui-Gon.


This scales Plagueis in TPM to be superior to Maul, who is superior to Qui-Gon, who is mentioned in the same breath as Mace Windu (but is less deadly) who is Yoda's equal.


Now that we have firmly cemented Plagueis to be a TPM titan via feats and scaling, we move onto why that isn't his ceiling. Recall my opening statement, that Sidious only a year before TPM is behind Plagueis by at least one level by his own admission. During his attack on Plagueis - who it should be noted was black out drunk, couldn't even stand up or focus on someone standing in front of him, and explicitly chose not to erect a Force Barrier to defend himself - Sidious twice confirms that he has not surpassed his master:


Darth Plagueis, Pg 357 wrote:“Plagueis who attempted to turn his equally powerful apprentice into a messenger and mere intermediary."


Darth Plagueis, Pg 358 wrote:“How often you said that the old order of Bane had ended with the death of your Master. An apprentice no longer needs to be stronger, you told me, merely more clever. The era of keeping score, suspicion, and betrayal was over. Strength is not in the flesh but in the Force.”

So, to summarise, one year before this Sidious was a level or two behind Plagueis and in that time he has not surpassed him. Claiming to be equal then is something of a reach on Sidious's part. His master was in the worst state he's been in twenty years and raised no Force defences and only a token defensive effort in manipulating his Midichlorians - healing the damage from Sidious's Force Lightning, which worked perfectly, but not healing his lungs, likely due to being hammered at the time. This is a clear case of gloating on Sidious's part, exaggerating  his actual power in a moment of euphoria. 


He then receives the boost in power that comes from those in the Banite line killing their masters. This though, doesn't actually mean as much as it is thought to if you go back in the novel to when Plagueis killed Tenebrous. He too received a boost in his power, but by Force sense and blood tests it doesn't appear to be anything of real significance:



Darth Plagueis, Pg 58 wrote:With 11-4D deep in processing mode, Plagueis withdrew a vial of his own blood and subjected it to analysis. Despite the recent amplification of his powers he sensed that his midi-chlorian count had not increased since the events on Bal'demnic, and the analysis of the blood sample confirmed his suspicions.



Darth Plagueis, Pg 73 wrote:
“Awaits …,” Plagueis said. As astonishing as it was to learn that Tenebrous had trained a second apprentice, he had a surprise in store for Venamis. Inhaling, he said, “Tenebrous is dead.”
Confusion showed in Venamis’s eyes. “You wish it were so.”
Plagueis held his lightsaber off to one side, parallel to the ground. “What’s more, he died by my hand.”
“Impossible.”


There you have it, even with the boost in power Venamis believes it is impossible for Plagueis to kill Tenebrous, implying there is still a solid gap in power between the two.

With this, I believe I have established that Plagueis could be as powerful as the AOTC or even the ROTS titans considering the amount of time it took Plagueis to surpass Tenebrous in power, which was no earlier than Part 2 of the novel (54 BBY), but most likely closer to or even after Plagueis and Sidious exerted their will over the Force in 42 BBY. That's either a 13 year period or a 25 year period.

Note that 32 BBY to 22 BBY is a 10 year period and to 19 BBY is a 13 year period.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 23:48
u started with the fact that we dont know how strong he is, but we kinda do know, dont we? not exactly of course, but we can have an idea by looking at sheev. his TPM self before even killing plagueis was implied to have been his semi equal, he then gains a huge power amp by killing him, then gets another 12.5 years of growth. and even then, by ROTS, he was unconvinced that he could beat Yoda easily enough to come out unscathed, while in the plagueis novel, even before his amp, he was confident that he couldve beaten plagueis at his best. 

basic logic: Yoda > Plagueis, and by a good bit too, no matter how u look at it. Gethzerion, jacen, and vader, have far better scaling the plagueis.
Corvinus
Corvinus

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Mon 27 Jan - 23:50
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:u started with the fact that we dont know how strong he is, but we kinda do know, dont we? not exactly of course, but we can have an idea by looking at sheev. his TPM self before even killing plagueis was implied to have been his semi equal, he then gains a huge power amp by killing him, then gets another 12.5 years of growth. and even then, by ROTS, he was unconvinced that he could beat Yoda easily enough to come out unscathed, while in the plagueis novel, even before his amp, he was confident that he couldve beaten plagueis at his best. 

basic logic: Yoda > Plagueis, and by a good bit too, no matter how u look at it. Gethzerion, jacen, and vader, have far better scaling the plagueis.


Please read what I wrote before posting a "rebuttal".
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 2:49
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Since I don't want to repeat and re-source what I've written already, I'll link some of my arguments for Plagueis and give everyone a general summary.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t387-ss-darth-plagueis-meatpants-vs-galen-marek-arkhamasylum3

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2225-ss-the-apprenticeship-tournament-darth-plagueis-the-ellimist-vs-luke-skywalker-darthskywalker0

1. Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith in history circa TPM, and kills Plagueis "upon receiving the skill and ability to do so", indicating that Sidious could beat his master, but not that he's significantly more powerful; consider that most Banite Sith were extremely close to their masters when they took the mantle as well. Sidious also only killed Plagueis after the dark side whispered for him to do so, and while Plagueis didn't have his guards around, was so drunk he couldn't hold a glass of wine without spilling it, and hadn't slept for two decades. Just before that, Sidious considered Plagueis and decided against it despite these opportune circumstances, another indication of the rough parity between the two.

2. Plagueis has a quote saying he was the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. Although it's a "blurb", it's backed up by the above point. Sidious is mentioned as the most powerful Sith of all time circa TPM, and since he received the "skill and ability" to kill Plagueis at this time, it means that up until this point, Plagueis had been the GOAT Sith. Just two years before TPM, Sidious describes Plagueis as such, "Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side." (Source: Plagueis)

3. Plagueis can use his midichlorian manipulation to heal himself quicker than Sidious, now the most powerful Sith in history who scales above Vitiate, Malak, Exar Kun etc. can damage him with his lightning. Consider that Darth Bane's lightning pre-prime can literally ash someone's unprotected body, which he does on various occasions, then consider how much more powerful Sidious is via Banite scaling. Plagueis can mitigate that damage against his unprotected body (he didn't have his Force barrier up). In MM, healing is a lot more difficult than using it offensively, meaning Plagueis' offensive MM would be extremely deadly.

4. Sidious' reached his biological Force potential after killing Plagueis, when he receives a (likely small) boost in power that almost starts pulling him apart. There are various other examples of this happening when someone hits the limit of their midichlorian count with actualised power, and examples as to how Sidious operated with this "limitation" throughout the rest of his life, all explained in my SS with HP, the link of which is above. When Sidious isn't drawing beyond his body, his augmentation is roughly on par with Yoda's and Windu's, or in other words, a tier 9 fighter. This means Plagueis, who's comparable to Sidious' base body potential can also augment himself to tier 9 level. He's also capable of all of Sidious' power feats where he didn't draw beyond his body, like being capable of ragdolling TPM Maul, Vader and Luke, being significantly more powerful than Dooku etc. 

5. Plagueis logically mastered all the forms of lightsaber combat (he taught Sidious), is extremely adaptable in a fight (Venamis duel) and with the same augmentation as Sidious, Yoda and KFV/MFV, he can contend with these guys and also beat anyone lesser than that level of fighting in a duel. 

6. In terms of endurance, we all know of the Maladian assassination, where Plagueis massively pre-prime was atomising people while suffering heavy blood loss, half his jaw missing and one of his hearts in cardiac arrest. He fended off against dozens of assassins who were trained and capable of killing Jedi, killing most of them before Sidious arrived to help him.
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 4:29
@EmperorCaedus wrote:@Azronger As MP’s argument pertains directly to an ongoing SS, I’m not sure if we are allowed to refute it. Until then, there are no cases for Plagueis.

Yes, that is a cop-out indeed. I gave a reason for why I think Plagueis is Yoda-tier; just because the evidence for it happens to be in an SS doesn't mean it isn't legitimate. It's there for everyone to read over and consider.

_________________
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 New_sig
Shioz
Shioz

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 5:33
The fact that the majority here focuses only on the general power in the Force, ignoring individual abilities and skills, disappoints.
OT: Caedus or Plagueis. Not completely sure.
LSDMB
LSDMB
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 6:02
Plagueis
Sas
Sas

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 6:37
@Shioz wrote:The fact that the majority here focuses only on the general power in the Force, ignoring individual abilities and skills, disappoints.
OT: Caedus or Plagueis. Not completely sure.

I agree with your sentiment, but for threads like this one, that approach is probably ideal.  In versus matches it's important to consider each party's individual talents and how they interact, but when making a list, doing that would just make things messy.  Since then you'd have to deliberate whether or not "this type of ability is better than that one," or "this fighting style is the best," and that's a pointless exercise.
Ash
Ash

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 6:48
Plagueis has this.
Shioz
Shioz

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 6:56
The new metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus would need an amp to defeat them.
@Sas Some characters use esoteric abilities that can be extremely useful for even a much more powerful enemy. For example, potentially Plagueis is more dangerous (not more powerful) than Yoda or RotS Mace due to midichlorian manipulation. Accordingly, Malgus, unable to cope with the mentioned skills, will need a much larger amp so that he can simply crush the enemy with pure power before he uses hax.
Sas
Sas

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 7:17
Well, I suppose you're not wrong, then.  That's not an ideal metric to use for this sort of thing, though, since what's being measured is technically "how effective the character is at fighting Darth Malgus" rather than "how powerful the character is."
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 9:24
"Powerful" can mean many different things; this tournament happens to refer to combative "power". Of course, that comparison isn't perfectly transitive and there can be rock-papers-scissors relationships, so the idea is to have some index, and the index here is Malgus, whose abilities we can model as relatively balanced, and who we can then apply a hypothetical general amp to and ask "how big does the amp have to be to beat you?".

Granted, especially when it comes to cross-era comparisons there are enough potential gaps that finer details like dueling styles can be overshadowed anyway.
Ziggy
Ziggy

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 20:48
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
[..]


Last edited by Ziggy on Fri 31 Jan - 5:15; edited 2 times in total
Ziggy
Ziggy

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 20:49
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
On topic.  


Plageuis has this.  

Caedus has yet to prove himself above Aayla Secura.
BoD
BoD
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 21:05
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
Compelling arguments have been made for both Plagueis and Caedus for the no. 8 slot. However, I want to make one of my own for Mace Windu.


Statements


To begin, we have several statements that already establish Mace as being on the level of Yoda and Sheev, several of which are out of universe or made by Lucas himself, putting them as G-Canon:




“You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

  • George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204.



-


As they approach the end of the climactic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he's rated the various swordsmen: "On Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels," he says. "Sidious is a level nine[out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious.
Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young, the dark side is just too tempting."

  • Nick Gillard, The Making of Revenge of the Sith.




Note that Gillard quotes are only G-Canon when in collaboration with Lucas or when approved by him, such as in the Making of Revenge of the Sith. As established here, Mace is an undeniable peer of Sidious and Yoda.


Now, why is it important to acknowledge this? Because Sheev has been repeatedly stated to be the most powerful Sith in history, scaling above incredibly powerful beings like Exar Kun, Vitiate, Darth Plagueis, and so on:



When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."


-


Possessed of the boundless power of the Force and adept in the ways of the dark side, Emperor Palpatine was one of the most dangerous and evil Humans in galactic history.


-


Many of the most powerful, terrifying, and notorious Sith Lords through history have been Human or near-Human, including Exar Kun, Darth Malak, Darth Bane, Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, and Darth Krayt.


-


His power may be unparalleled in the history of the Sith.


-


Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.


-


When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.


-


He also benefits from the power growth that comes as a result of the Rule of Two, where the apprentice would ultimately surpass the master:



For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.


-


Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with every generation.


-


For a thousand years we continued to follow Bane's Rule of Two, existing in the shadows, biding our time, growing in power, feeding our hatred. Darth Sidious proved to be the splendid culmination of a thousand years of Sith philosophy and teachings.


-


As such, Mace’s G-Canon parity with ROTS Sidious, who even at this point was the most powerful Sith in history, puts him above the likes of Plagueis and Vitiate (and thus, Revan). 



Fighting Sidious


For this, I’m not going to focus on the duel itself per se. Challenging the extent of the Vaapad amp and why context around it would be ignored would take too long, so I’m going to focus on two specific examples from the fight.


Example 1: Sidious Force pushes Mace


First off, in the novel there’s a key point that is often overlooked when debating Mace Windu and his parity to Sidious. Mace has the very impressive feat of countering a blast from Sidious that was intended to knock him out of the office window:




Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.




Now, why am I highlighting this feat in particular? First, it’s important to note the context of this feat.


First off, Mace was completely out of Vaapad at the time. Through the Force, he’d just sensed the arrival of Anakin:




And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The chosen one was here.




Vaapad requires intense concentration and focus to uphold. Mace’s relief at sensing Anakin, the man prophecised to destroy the Sith, was enough to take him right out of Vaapad:




and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The chosen one was here.


-


He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.




So, we have Mace completely bereft of Vaapad. This means that any amp that Vaapad would have given him was utterly nonexistent for this feat.


Second, let’s break down the events into a short, clear summary:



  • Mace senses Anakin, bringing him out of Vaapad and distracting him.
  • Mace then leaps towards the window, slashing it and causing it to shatter.
  • As he starts to turn to face Sidious again, Sheev blasts him with enough power to “nearly (blow) him right out of the gap he had just cut”.
  • Mace, with barely any time to counter and out of Vaapad, unleashes a Force push with enough power to blast him away from the window.



Now, one counter argument to this is that Windu’s push wouldn’t have to be strong enough to largely, let alone fully, counteract Sheev’s push. However, I disagree. Below are two depictions of the Supreme Chancellor’s office:


★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 QufIOntHsiCf9UpHLZOIC3yDrwiH7n8_3QqPDC-J2E-6BJP-XJrHYNbTWT8IK8kfl8sxHKzJS7bskpeEK2N5f6BAsJhm6OrdyjoFDCghuH8_LzUZeStTf10wzjctlktc5HNHvl3x
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Ja4p3cZQkgHEHVzpZ8GE9Kn5goo0DTYzNoVEAZqNi9cUYIkvAMWF44y6JL9fdgLFJsiFRmUmXeMVdxUgeEvrPZtklt_An6rdqlYFLFdDz2YO_8bgLwbJJ37-IxgjZRxKkEiN5_5u


Now, a stanchion is defined as this:


a fixed vertical bar or pole used as a support for something: (Cambridge)


-
   An upright bar, post, or support (as for a roof or a ship's deck) (Merriam Webster).
   -
 
A stanchion is a pole or bar that stands upright and is used as a support. (Collins).



As you can see, the object circled in purple below


★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Juf0zES0njj5DzDIq87SepOGgNe3kt8vtDpwQMI5SHXLXWonxZvU_paecRUsNOJgpcdYkVjCEMpjGNRcEXUF3l97prv9EINwQLsEPv1dVpvAX8lov715XC3bR-yMG7UB2RtP_N9G


is a stanchion, a post or pole designed as a support. These are dotted around the office. Now, let’s look at the exact wording of the feat:


 His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.


So, let’s take a more conservative look at this:


★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 KKGrH1PNlq7_tzHzaXIORkVVnpg7NR14UFcOk6vgWujTjiCQrmWy5y6ZVL9Lb2xaOJ_ne_4vEI6ZoSm1n9P3IQYS0NK-qQhxbB-_13cmNQfCxUepuO3eKW_wB0Zk_EhFkus_9-hT


At the very least, Mace would have been standing where the red circle is, which is the shortest distance between the window and the stanchion. After cutting this window open, with no time to reposition himself or move, Mace then counters a force aimed towards the window with one to the side, as shown below:


★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 CCyGnRal0vBTKfysZQ2gT4LbqwcEpxqROScSsGaDUz_8R0vvXKR0mHFBU-carUImpEl19mcQUD5FtiQJz-3ZUpDW3hQ2Zj0EHilvOndc9-Yu_fQzbO6hEx9GFJdALornjexB9aLS


Sheev would have tried to blow Mace straight through the window (the white arrow) while Mace would have had to release enough power (with no time to gather it, too, hence the “desperate” Force push) to move himself a fair bit faster towards the stanchion than he would have been moving towards the hole in the window (the black arrow follows the direction of the push he'd have unleashed).


Now, I’m not going to speculate on whether Sheev’s “dark surge” was a gathering of power or just an average power blast, but several things are clear here:



  • Mace was distracted and out of Vaapad, having no time to prepare himself for a push from the “most powerful Sith lord of all time”. 
  • Sidious’ blast against Mace was done with nearly every conceivable advantage: he had no way of knowing Mace could react or counter the blast with enough speed and power to counteract it, bringing any argument that this was part of a trick into doubt.
  • Mace not only counteracted the blast but did it with enough power to completely alter his flight path, going from a blast that would have sent him flying helplessly out of the window to one that slammed him into a stanchion several feet from the very edge of the window.
  • However you look at this, Mace brought his power to bear against Sidious’ and proved his parity here, counteracting a lethal Force blast with one of his own in direct opposition to it. Once again, this reinforces the idea that even out of Vaapad, Mace was able to perform in near-lockstep with Sidious.





Example 2: The lightning exchange


This has been debated time and time again, and I’m not here for a long, drawn out debate about it. Here is what is clear to me from the struggle.


1. Mace was, once again, caught unprepared, and yet still reacted fast enough in his exhausted state to block Sheev’s lightning:


Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. 




2. Vaapad was not designed for use against lightning. While it is able to hold its own for a time, it is quickly overwhelmed by it:





Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side. Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master. This was Vaapad's ultimate test.


-



Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—
And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.
"Destroy this traitor," the Chancellor said, his voice raised aver the howl of writhing energy that joined his hands to Mace's blade. "This was never an arrest. It's an assassination!"
That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...
Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."





Vaapad only has a temporary usefulness against lightning. Take a look at Sora Bulq (another Vaapad practitioner) and how he performed against Dooku’s considerably weaker lightning:




★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 C0I5HlSTAX3wc9QfW93LvPkMpg3v0wze2wtVFi1mJRyh3xfDTK5WMkvK_1gYiCzAeu29-VKb0zgR0KKBeeWQF6bdQa4QkP8T9OSibZfxgLcMFO0UJrybUbpJeeK551g7IWNlaNiY


Vaapad offers only a limited protection against lightning. If the practitioner is not powerful enough or skilled enough to harness it or counter lightning, it is ultimately useless. It is made clear throughout the text that lightning has a completely different effect than raw dark side energy on Vaapad’s capabilities. Mace for example is quite comfortable using it against Sidious when Sidious is only drawing upon raw energy, but once it’s focused into lightning Vaapad’s effectiveness is limited, being capable of only redirecting the first bolts before Mace is described as struggling:




Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.
"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. 




Please note that this is not evidence for Mace being unable to compete with Sidious. This is simply Vaapad being incapable of easily countering Sidious’ lightning, forcing Mace to rely on raw power, much like other incredibly powerful beings like Yoda, who likewise struggled




The end came with astonishing suddenness. The shadow could feel how much it cost the little green freak to bend back his lightnings into the cage of energy that enclosed them both; the creature had reached the limits of his strength.

  • Revenge of the Sith novelisation.



★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 M6ZR3g




3. Further to the points above, Mace and Sidious were both tiring during this duel. However, unlike Mace, Sidious has the benefit of dark side reserves he can’t normally draw upon without harming himself (which he used against Mace and which presumably caused his looking like a scrotum):




One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below. Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.




Likewise, Sidious was enraged following this, further empowering him:




"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."
Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.
"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"




Sheev’s ability to draw upon excess reserves was further indicated by his ability to continue intensifying the power of his lightning, despite seemingly being exhausted by his duel with Mace:




 Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.


-


Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.




By contrast, Mace, having no way to replenish himself or excess reserves like Sheev, was able to hold his own for an incredibly impressive amount of time despite being tired/exhausted:




"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"
He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—
And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.
"Destroy this traitor," the Chancellor said, his voice raised aver the howl of writhing energy that joined his hands to Mace's blade. "This was never an arrest. It's an assassination!"
That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...
Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."
"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."




With all of this taken into account, we have: 


1. An exhausted Mace holding off an enraged Sidious’ lightning for a substantial amount of time.


2. Vaapad was largely useless against this kind of energy, being designed to harness the practitioner’s raw energy and transform it into light. It was not designed to harness focused blasts, let alone focused blasts of lightning that were increasing in power by the second.


3. Sidious was rapidly upping the power of this lightning against an exhausted Mace, and was gradually overpowering him.


4. Despite all of these factors, Mace was able to hold his own against the most powerful Sith lord in history for a considerable amount of time, despite being exhausted and unable to rely upon Vaapad to save him.




Conclusion


As has hopefully been made clear in this post, Mace’s parity with the likes of ROTS Sheev and ROTS Yoda is very clear. From G-Canon statements putting him as their peer to his performances against the former without the help of Vaapad, Mace’s raw strength is difficult to ignore, especially in light of its comparability to the likes of Sidious. As such, of all of the characters suggested for the number 8 slot so far, I believe that it should go resoundingly to Mace. Mace Windu has the right amount of skill, power, knowledge and versatility to take this, and likewise benefits from scaling to ROTS Sidious.


Even if beings such as Plagueis can be argued to be more powerful (which, considering the apparent comparability between him and a 13 years pre-ROTS Sidious who grew considerably during this time, I find unlikely), it's important to stress that Mace not only has power on his side but also has superior lightsaber and general fighting skill, being repeated stated to be either a peer of Yoda or even equal to him, with Revenge of the Sith even pegging him as "unparalleled". As such, power is only one facet of this competition, and fortunately, Mace has several of them firmly in his corner.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

on Tue 28 Jan - 21:50
great post
Sponsored content

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 3 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum