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DarthAnt66
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:04 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd: I specifically quoted BoD in my response.

BoD, see my response on the last page.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
as for something else, wouldnt acknowledging the boost mean that Vader can legitimately access his old levels of power?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:05 am
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oh shit, did not see that hahaha im sorry man. my bad.
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:06 am
Exactly, but that doesn't logically follow. Why does him being powerless beforehand preclude an uber amp? (Hint: It can't.)

So would you like to quantify a completely powerless Vader going from lying helplessly on the floor to seizing the Emperor, tanking his lightning for several seconds and chucking him down a reactor shaft? I'd be very interested to see you quantify this in comparison to suited Vader beyond a "super energy" amp that doesn't in any way contradict Vader being restored to full strength then boosted on top of this. This whole debate is pointless. We both agree that Vader was amped, and by the looks of it neither of us are able to quantify the nature nor the extent of this amp. The only difference seems to be that you think it is infinitely beyond suited Vader whereas I think it massively increased his power but to an extent that is impossible to determine or compare to his suited counterpart beyond it being stronger.
DarthAnt66
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:08 am
@BoD wrote:
Exactly, but that doesn't logically follow. Why does him being powerless beforehand preclude an uber amp? (Hint: It can't.)

So would you like to quantify a completely powerless Vader going from lying helplessly on the floor to seizing the Emperor, tanking his lightning for several seconds and chucking him down a reactor shaft? I'd be very interested to see you quantify this in comparison to suited Vader beyond a "super energy" amp that doesn't in any way contradict Vader being restored to full strength then boosted on top of this. This whole debate is pointless. We both agree that Vader was amped, and by the looks of it neither of us are able to quantify the nature nor the extent of this amp.

??? 

The fact you can't quantify the extent of the amp, by default, means you cannot say it's not an exponential amp like you just did, lol.
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:09 am
That's why I added:


The only difference seems to be that you think it is infinitely beyond suited Vader whereas I think it massively increased his power but to an extent that is impossible to determine or compare to his suited counterpart beyond it being stronger.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:10 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:ive only seen one thing that says that vader was legitimately amped, and none of them seem to say that its one a time thing. the one that i can think is sidious saying that vader had the power to kill him (doenst mean vader=sheev), but that only lasted for so long. this could mean that vader did in fact achieve powers above his average self, OR it could mean that, you know, vader DIED after the deed, which would limit his ability to keep it up, logically. REGARDLESS, amp or not, Vader was indeed injured and weakened and didnt defend himself at all from the attack. I dont know what the amp actually did, but it let him fully tank an attack that he was naturally weak, with only 1 arm, and a broken leg AFTER he lost his dark side boost, as he had become anakin by this point. The amp had to cover so many things, and its mustve been so powerful for this to happen, that if were to achieve 1/3 third of this 'circumstantial' amp when he was a dark sider and healthy, he could likely replicate the feat again. i dont know why u people think he cant do it again. him being mad at sheev is a constant state of being for vader. he can at least pull off something similar WITHOUT luke being tortured. he has enough bad memories and feelings for that.

Peak Vader "couldn't have stood a chance" at replicating this normally, per the quote. Vader's coursing with light side energy and love for Luke, which is circumstantial.
Wouldnt that be peak Vader though? He didnt receive any outside help for the supposed amp. And 'love for Luke' is not circumstantial either. It means that if Sheev got to Vader and said "yeah imma torture that little shit for what he did to my death star" than Vader couldve replicated the feat as well. As for the 'light side coursing through him' means nothing? The light and dark side are equals. If this 'light side coursing through him' if supposed to be his apex as a light sider, than him being at his irate would be its counterpart, no? This means that the feat is in fact doable more than once.
DarthAnt66
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:15 am
The only difference seems to be that you think it is infinitely beyond suited Vader whereas I think it massively increased his power but to an extent that is impossible to determine or compare to his suited counterpart beyond it being stronger.

@BOD: Dude, pardon my frustration, but are you reading this discussion or just randomly typing words?

- At the start, you insinuated Vader's amp was somehow mitigated by being exhausted beforehand. 

- Later, you confirmed your belief the amp definitely did not increase Vader exponentially.

All that in red is what I'm disputing with you now. 

I'm saying Vader being exhausted beforehand is irrelevant, and you cannot claim the amp definitely did not increase Vader exponentially.
DarthAnt66
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:26 am
Wouldnt that be peak Vader though?

It's a momentary, circumstantial act done by Anakin when he "found within himself a new source of vitality," "finally broke the hold of evil that had suffocated him for so long," "was reborn," "cast off years of dark-side regimentation," "reclaimed his original identity," etc. and cast aside Vader. It's sort of the antithesis of "peak Vader." 

And 'love for Luke' is not circumstantial either. It means that if Sheev got to Vader and said "yeah imma torture that little shit for what he did to my death star" than Vader couldve replicated the feat as well.

That's, by definition, what circumstantial means, not to mention Vader's love for Luke developed across ROTJ and reached critical right when it did.

As for the 'light side coursing through him' means nothing? The light and dark side are equals. If this 'light side coursing through him' if supposed to be his apex as a light sider, than him being at his irate would be its counterpart, no? This means that the feat is in fact doable more than once.

Re-embracing the light side after being a dark sider makes you far stronger. E.g. Galen Marek, Luke Skywalker. This is stated here:

Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Q_f-t_p4BNnjvsQ-pdUN-O2bI_VEiVI6ByEnJ53lwhKen6QqJYFniSfGEWf7zALE2CrhfvzWLrM8HqW3DrxhH5mqIznldeMjlxXYNj2p5l0vGTLVUiD1ed2lR_gsFJ8M8hD-RJVp

"Vader wouldn't have stood a chance against the power emanating from his Master, but the light side of the Force gives him the strength he needs."
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:29 am
Tagging me won't work, btw. Disabled all of my notifications and other alerts in preparation for shutting my account down for a while.

My views on the amp:

Vader was exhausted when the amp occurred.

The amp fully restored Vader's strength and then amplified it.

Because this amp is vague, it is impossible to claim that ROTJ Vader ~ this Vader. Likewise, there is no way to compare this Vader to full strength ROTJ Vader because the only form of comparison we have between the two is that amped Vader > ROTJ Vader, and the only direct comparison we get between the two in the novel(s) is between a completely drained Vader and an amped Vader.

Like I said, this is pointless.
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:29 am
Now if that's all, I'm heading to bed. Won't be replying to anything for a while.
DarthAnt66
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:31 am
Do you retract this statement, then?

 I was trying to say that it can't be treated as this insane boost that for example quadrupled his strength as some members put it as he was completely powerless before it occurred

Edit:

Vader was exhausted when the amp occurred.

And can you address my comments on why mentioning Vader was exhausted is irrelevant to any analysis of the amp?
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:33 am
Yep. Ngl, confused myself with what I was trying to say. I blame the alcohol.
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:36 am
One thing I will say is:


"Vader wouldn't have stood a chance against the power emanating from his Master, but the light side of the Force gives him the strength he needs."

Uh...

"At most times, and particularly in his weakened state" doesn't suggest that peak, resolved Vader wouldn't have stood a chance against Sidious (though he obviously wouldn't have beaten him).
DarthAnt66
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:39 am
Why would "peak, resolved Vader" not refer to "at most times"?

Edit:
Spoiler:
Of course, note we have clarification from Lucas that Palpatine can one-shot Vader tiers, and Vader's own admission that him + Luke wouldn't even register as a combat threat to Palpatine. [hideedit]


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:47 am; edited 2 times in total
ILS
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:43 am
What's vague about it, exactly? What in your view would count as "quantifiable" or "accurate" in SW debating, and is this actually a standard you apply all the time?

Vader "wouldn't have stood a chance" at tanking Sheev's lightning and tossing him at any point prior. That means, at any other time, even when he was seething with bloodlust, he would have, with 100% certainty, failed at replicating the feat.

Why are you basically repeating back to Ant what he has posted but with the asinine insistence that he is being too vague and that this is all pointless and we should give up trying to glean something useful from it? You haven't even cited any source material for your arguments, it just comes off as a strange kind of backpeddling where you want to say the same thing Ant is saying but without agreeing with him.

Besides, this kind of thing has happened plenty of times in the lore and thus it is relatively quantifiable. Luke and Leia in DE were able to cut Sidious off from his storm by channelling a flood of light energy into him, whereas before, Luke couldn't even take down a one armed Sheev who was guiding a Force storm - indeed its made clear Sheev was too strong for him alone and it was necessary to turn his own power against him.

What about nexus-amped Cade drawing on the dark side far more deeply than he ever had before, failing to heal his friend, and then when drawing on the light side (and his love for her), not only healing her, but simultaneously tanking a giant explosion with a Force Bubble?

What about Galen Marek getting clapped by Sheev and then abandoning everything to save his friends, detonating himself in a blast that made every cell in his body burst with energy?

I'm sure there are others. There is nothing useful about backpeddling out of the horror of being forced to say "oh good point, I haven't seen that source" and insisting that everything is unquantifiable and therefore pointless. You must transcend your egoic limitations. No, this isn't an exact science, and you can sit on the sidelines and poke holes in virtually any argument easily, but that doesn't mean it's pointless providing we can agree on a few basic premises and aren't just here to nitpick each other to death.
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:46 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Hey fellas, would you mind helping me out? Not sure what thread I'm in right now. I blame the alcohol.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:10 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Wouldnt that be peak Vader though?

It's a momentary, circumstantial act done by Anakin when he "found within himself a new source of vitality," "finally broke the hold of evil that had suffocated him for so long," "was reborn," "cast off years of dark-side regimentation," "reclaimed his original identity," etc. and cast aside Vader. It's sort of the antithesis of "peak Vader." 

And 'love for Luke' is not circumstantial either. It means that if Sheev got to Vader and said "yeah imma torture that little shit for what he did to my death star" than Vader couldve replicated the feat as well.

That's, by definition, what circumstantial means, not to mention Vader's love for Luke developed across ROTJ and reached critical right when it did.

As for the 'light side coursing through him' means nothing? The light and dark side are equals. If this 'light side coursing through him' if supposed to be his apex as a light sider, than him being at his irate would be its counterpart, no? This means that the feat is in fact doable more than once.

Re-embracing the light side after being a dark sider makes you far stronger. E.g. Galen Marek, Luke Skywalker. This is stated here:

Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Q_f-t_p4BNnjvsQ-pdUN-O2bI_VEiVI6ByEnJ53lwhKen6QqJYFniSfGEWf7zALE2CrhfvzWLrM8HqW3DrxhH5mqIznldeMjlxXYNj2p5l0vGTLVUiD1ed2lR_gsFJ8M8hD-RJVp

"Vader wouldn't have stood a chance against the power emanating from his Master, but the light side of the Force gives him the strength he needs."
sorry, i went for a walk. 

1- That makes me think that Vader's boost is not temporary to lightsider Vader (or Anakin), to be honest. If he found a new source, then its not necessarily temporary. If he was reborn, then he is not what he was before, and is now something new, de facto not temporary. If he broke free, then its not temporary either. If he cast off years, then its not temporary either. If he claimed his original identity, then he is not Vader anymore, but now permanently Anakin, making it not temporary either.

2- I suppose i worded that wrongly. If something like that is what gives Vader newfound power, then he can feasibly do it more than once. That contradicts it being temporary. Giving it ur utmost all to save someone is not a one time thing. Neither is an amplification in power caused by one's emotions. The emotions will always be there. This proves Vader, after he becomes a light sider, retains the amp, or some of it, at least. It means we know he can technically access that power more than once.

3- That yet again proves the fact that Vader after he became Anakin, boost or not, is far stronger than Vader at his best, no? It says that the light side gave him power. He only couldnt access it before because A) He was a dark sider and B) He was mentally unstable. It means that he can access Sheev-ish levels of power by becoming a light sider again, and not by just loving his son. If what u said is true, then after Vader becomes Anakin again, he is in fact far stronger than before, permanently. The boost is temporary to the Dark Lord Vader, but not to a... redeemed Anakin. Am i correct? Well, actually, he might be even stronger than that, since he was weak to the attack aimed at him, didnt defend himself at all, had only one arm, and a broken leg. Healthy Anakin + Mental Boost >> Fucked up Anakin + Mental Boost, right?

I have a few questions, by the way, if u dont mind:

Do u agree with anything i said? If so, please tell me what.

How strong is amped Vader (or redeemed Anakin, if u will) compared to Sidious in ROTJ?

Is Anakin now stronger than ever before? I would assume so, correct?

Is the state that he achieved similar to what Obi Wan got in Mustafar?

IF Anakin is not like that at all times, do u think he could pull if off again, like Obi Wan often does when he goes into 'full focus' mode?

Tell me your thoughts please. Im actually really curious about this.
Azronger
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:23 am
Fuck
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:05 pm
what happened? lol
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:14 pm
@Azronger wrote:Fuck
Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 7c1
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:21 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
good show tbh. nice boobs from time to time, some good fighting before or after. monsters a few minutes prior. witches even more minutes before that. 80 y/o man who looks 35.
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:26 pm
Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 39523600
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:31 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:good show tbh. nice boobs from time to time, some good fighting before or after. monsters a few minutes prior. witches even more minutes before that. 80 y/o man who looks 35.
Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 3948126588
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Valkorion Gauntlet - Page 3 Empty Re: Valkorion Gauntlet

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:25 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@ILS @DarthAnt66 Looked over the stuff you've said and I agree with you. Realised I was clinging to the wording of a quote and it was a bit yikes. Thanks for the info and sources, though.
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