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The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger

Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Empty Re: Karness muur vs Darth Bane

on January 13th 2020, 12:26 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:yeah, she obviously isnt. and i posted the date for his death here >> https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/19_BBY/Legends#Deaths
hold up if roan died on 19 bby that means is bio on the wikia have errors
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Empty Re: Karness muur vs Darth Bane

on January 13th 2020, 12:26 pm
Shocking.
BoD
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on January 13th 2020, 12:32 pm
Greysentinel365 wrote:
@BoD wrote:Cheers. Doesn't really subtract anything from Vader, though
Means the Roan Shryne boost didn't do squat against Muur or the Jedi on Kessel. We now know both occur after it.
Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 3948126588

The Kessel duel happened almost right after Order 66 and Vader was put into the suit, maybe a month after if you're feeling generous. The Morne fight happened approximately three months after Order 66. Shryne was struck down about midway through 19 BBY (16:7:19). So no, they occurred before it, or at least the Kessel duel did. The Morne/Muur one is difficult to judge.


Last edited by BoD on January 13th 2020, 12:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Empty Re: Karness muur vs Darth Bane

on January 13th 2020, 12:33 pm
lol
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

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on January 13th 2020, 12:35 pm
I mean Kessel is confirmed to be a months post RotS. Which is longer then 4 weeks. 

Last I checked 3 months is later than 4 weeks as well.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on January 13th 2020, 12:37 pm
look at the fucking time line. i literally posted it. holy shit.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Empty Re: Karness muur vs Darth Bane

on January 13th 2020, 12:38 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:look at the fucking time line. i literally posted it. holy shit.
You posted a fan edited wiki timeline. It means jack shit.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger

Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Empty Re: Karness muur vs Darth Bane

on January 13th 2020, 12:39 pm
lol again with the insults....
BoD
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Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Empty Re: Karness muur vs Darth Bane

on January 13th 2020, 12:39 pm
I mean Kessel is confirmed to be a months post RotS. Which is longer then 4 weeks. 

No, read it again. "The events in these stories take place in the months following Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith." It's referring to all of the events of the series, not just the Kessel confrontation. The tone of the comic in question is quite clearly set just after Order 66. 


Last I checked 3 months is later than 4 weeks as well.

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say with this.
The Dragon Of The West
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on January 13th 2020, 12:41 pm
@BoD

That would also mean SK sucks since he couldn't overwhelm him.

Right, because any legitimate discussion we have on Vader must always involve SK being dragged into it somehow, his name must always be brought up when I want to defend other characters who I like, just because I don't hold Vader as high as you.

Anyway, seeing as I'm too weak-willed to ignore this amazing bait, and to stop myself from initiating the one billionth discussion we'll have on this topic, despite the fact that I know you won't concede, here you go:

The Force Unleashed Novelization wrote:"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours - but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again - and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

The Force Unleashed 2 Novelization wrote:But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Juno lying limp in his arms.

The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.

Juno-dead.

He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?

The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.

SK overwhelms Vader in both novels.

Toying with an assassin capable of blitzing an entire group of highly trained soldiers in seconds with enough skill and speed that their leader wasn't even aware of what happened until after, stomping four Jedi at once, stomping numerous dark Jedi, killing 3 Jedi in blade to blade combat a month after Mustafar and while hindered by his rage, stomping Celeste Morne in saber combat while holding back, stomping an entire group of special ops troopers when they had the element of surprise, etc etc.

So, Bane convincingly overwhelms an established combatant who (memes aside), perfected every sequence of Lightsaber combat, while vastly pre-prime, and you raise me in response... Vader beating fodder? Yeah, if this is Vader's best, Bane definitely has the saber edge.

Collapsing a temple ceiling

This isn't even comparable to what Bane accomplished while vastly pre-prime.  Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 1220391476

and manipulating an energy beam capable of slicing star destroyers in half,

Citation needed.

ripping apart pressurised mining blast doors with zero effort,

Once again, this isn't comparable to Bane's feat which was accomplished vastly pre-prime while he was exhausted (and injured?).

collapsing a cathedral with a labyrinth built underneath it while heavily wounded

There's no evidence he collapsed the full thing (as far as I'm aware), we only see him destroy part of it on panel. Anyway, while this is obviously impressive I'm not really sure it's enough to put him above Bane given the latter's temple feat.

(about 20 minutes beforehand he'd willed himself back from the brink of death), etc.

Differ to Ant's rebuttals (in Super Fight 3) on Vader supposedly willing himself back from the dead.


Last edited by The Count of Conundrums on January 13th 2020, 12:51 pm; edited 5 times in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Empty Re: Karness muur vs Darth Bane

on January 13th 2020, 12:43 pm
Greysentinel365 wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:look at the fucking time line. i literally posted it. holy shit.
You posted a fan edited wiki timeline. It means jack shit.
ah yes, of course. so i guess we should go by ur timeline then? instead of the one with many mods and supervisors to it, who have been working on that shit for years now. of course. why not.
The Dragon Of The West
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on January 13th 2020, 12:48 pm
Anyway, given that I need to focus on studying I should get off SI, so I'm not distracted. If you write a response @BoD, I'll probably get down to it on Wednesday evening, as I've got exams tomorrow and on Wednesday.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Empty Re: Karness muur vs Darth Bane

on January 13th 2020, 12:57 pm
@BoD wrote:
I mean Kessel is confirmed to be a months post RotS. Which is longer then 4 weeks. 

No, read it again. "The events in these stories take place in the months following Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith." It's referring to all of the events of the series, not just the Kessel confrontation. The tone of the comic in question is quite clearly set just after Order 66. 
That's because it part of a compilation.

However when the story was published individually

Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Screen11
One month.
BoD
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on January 13th 2020, 1:17 pm
Right, because in any legitimate discussion we have on Vader must always involve SK being dragged into it somehow, his name must always be brought up when I want to defend other characters who I like,



Sounding a bit salty there.



just because you're a bit salty I don't hold Vader as high as you.

No, it's because you consistently try to lowball him. 

Anyway, seeing as I'm too weak-willed to ignore this amazing bait, and to initiate the one billionth discussion we'll have on this topic, despite the fact that I know you won't concede hear you go:

I don't concede because I hope that one day, much like how you used to claim Galen was comparable to TFU Sidious, you'll see that it's not the case.


SK overwhelms Vader in both novels.

*Sigh*


"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

Vader breaks Galen's barrier, Galen then knocks a distracted Vader back.



"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours - but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."

Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."

The lightsabers flashed again - and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.

So a Galen who's constantly taunting and belittling Vader momentarily gains an advantage and slashes Vader apparently overwhelms him...yet this is apparently a superior showing to Vader overwhelming Galen's defences and forcing him to use lightning to break the onslaught (novel's words, not mine). Galen only wins when he becomes enraged and deals significant damage to Vader after Vader is too slow to raise his defences to block all his strikes. But by all means, I await your "Vader being stabbed through the thigh, slashed with a deep wound across the neck and slashed across the shoulder wouldn't have affected his abilities at all."


As for your second quote, nice cherry picking.



But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

Nice to see your first line literally contradicts this. Vader forces SK back. If you're having difficulty understanding what putting someone on the back foot means, here:


outmanoeuvred by a competitor or opponent; at a disadvantage.


-


If someone is on the back foot, or if something puts them on the back foot, they feel threatened and act defensively.


-


on the back foot
in British English
at a disadvantage; outmanoeuvred or outclassed by an opponent

So SK was being outclassed by Vader. He then exploits his lightning advantage:



Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

And since I know you're going to say "if Vader was better he wouldn't have lowered his defences" or something ridiculous like that, this is not the first time Vader has done this against an inferior opponent, nor is he the only one to do so. So let's nip that in the bud. If the two were fighting in sabers and SK had to exploit a Force advantage instead of being able to counter with skill, physicals, etc., he was pretty clearly outclassed.



So, Bane convincingly overwhelms an established combatant who (memes aside), perfected every sequence of Lightsaber combat, while vastly pre-prime,

When'd he beat him, again? And more importantly, how? Saber combat? Force power? Exploiting distractions? Cheap shots? I need context.



and you raise me in response... Vader beating fodder?



Only you would call a NFU stomping 20+ highly trained soldiers in seconds fodder. 




Yeah, if this is Vader's best Bane definitely has the saber edge.

Except it isn't, lol.


This isn't even comparable to what Bane accomplished while vastly pre-prime.  Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 1220391476

Cathedral feat is easily comparable, lol. 


Citation needed.
Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Rco02212

Shatters the ceiling while also causing the beam to ebb from its constraints, going from a pillar of energy to a wave that spins around him and kills everything except him. Note the beam's shape before and after he extended his hand to shatter the ceiling and manipulate it, and its shape afterwards, as well as the fact that it flowed all around him without touching him.


Once again, this isn't comparable to Bane's feat which was accomplished vastly pre-prime while he was exhausted (and injured?).

Once again, cathedral feat.


There's no evidence he collapsed the full thing (as far as I'm aware), we only see him destroy part of it on panel.

Quite clearly collapses the entire thing based on the structural style of it. 




Anyway, while this is obviously impressive I'm not really sure it's enough to put him above Bane given the latter's temple feat.

How? Bane blew apart the walls of the temple and caused it to fall while exhausted and pre-prime. Vader in the same situation shook a labyrinth (and in doing so, the weight of a cathedral on top of it) then ripped it down so it fell on top of him.


Differ to Ant's rebuttals (in Super Fight 3) on Vader supposedly willing himself back from the dead.

That wasn't a debunk of this, lol. Vader had been heavily wounded by flamethrowers and was stated to have willed himself back from the brink of death, and survived being buried under rubble for days through sheer willpower. Whether he literally willed himself back from the dead is irrelevant. He was heavily wounded and not even able to stand before he was captured.
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Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Empty Re: Karness muur vs Darth Bane

on January 13th 2020, 1:18 pm
Greysentinel365 wrote:
@BoD wrote:
I mean Kessel is confirmed to be a months post RotS. Which is longer then 4 weeks. 

No, read it again. "The events in these stories take place in the months following Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith." It's referring to all of the events of the series, not just the Kessel confrontation. The tone of the comic in question is quite clearly set just after Order 66. 
That's because it part of a compilation.

However when the story was published individually

Karness muur vs Darth Bane - Page 2 Screen11
One month.
So it's still months before the Shryne fight and Vader's substantial growth.
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