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KingofBlades
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:06 pm
An argument can be made that Act 3 HoT is roughly novel Revan level. Which would be indicative of SoR Revan's growth. However I'll save that for my post.@BreakofDawn

I've also explained to you before why Revan logically should have grown during those 300 years.
BoD
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:25 pm
@KingofBlades You probably have but my brain is about as useful as a knitted condom when it comes to remembering stuff.
Azronger
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:30 pm
@Ziggy wrote:Darth Caedus

Very curious to your argument.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:45 pm
honestly, caedus should be left out. he is just too... impossible to gauge?
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:46 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd: honestly i will put yoda in number 5 alongside ani,krayt on 6 and unuthul on 7
lorenzo.r.2nd
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:50 pm
still wanna know how yoda or revan are above unuthul
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:51 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd for yoda i would believe its becuase of the supremacy of quotes 
revan  i honestly don't know  his feats are impressive and he have quite some great showings however i do not consider him be this stronger 


Last edited by The lord of hunger on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:54 pm
supremacy of quotes? if thats the case, then qui gon is above him too lmaooo
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:55 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd: im mostly refering of how yoda and sidious are compared in the majority of times especially during the rots era although tbh that  supremacy quotes can be quite inconsistent nevertheless.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:00 pm
ok? they can be compared all they want. unuthul shouldve honestly been above many people in this list already, but it is what it is.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:53 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd: in your opinion in which place will you put unuthul on?
BoD
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:53 pm
Isn't Unuthul's best feat causing Luke to exert himself to overcome him? What's to stop Yoda from replicating that feat? The gap between the ROTS titans and GM Luke isn't massive enough that Luke could just stomp or handily defeat any of them. He'd actually have to exert himself to beat them, especially the ones with greater mastery, knowledge and hax like Yoda and Sidious (Windu and Anakin are comparably powerful but fall short in hax).
Syndiciate
Syndiciate

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:35 pm
Yoda.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:38 pm
@BoD wrote:Isn't Unuthul's best feat causing Luke to exert himself to overcome him? What's to stop Yoda from replicating that feat? The gap between the ROTS titans and GM Luke isn't massive enough that Luke could just stomp or handily defeat any of them. He'd actually have to exert himself to beat them, especially the ones with greater mastery, knowledge and hax like Yoda and Sidious (Windu and Anakin are comparably powerful but fall short in hax).
u kinda explained why i think unuthul > Yoda. u view luke as not much far above than yoda or sheev, while i do. its as simple as that.
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:52 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@BoD wrote:Isn't Unuthul's best feat causing Luke to exert himself to overcome him? What's to stop Yoda from replicating that feat? The gap between the ROTS titans and GM Luke isn't massive enough that Luke could just stomp or handily defeat any of them. He'd actually have to exert himself to beat them, especially the ones with greater mastery, knowledge and hax like Yoda and Sidious (Windu and Anakin are comparably powerful but fall short in hax).
u kinda explained why i think unuthul > Yoda. u view luke as not much far above than yoda or sheev, while i do. its as simple as that.
He is far above them, it's just not ragdoll or stomp territory.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:52 pm
then stop commenting on vs threads lol
lorenzo.r.2nd
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:55 pm
@BoD wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@BoD wrote:Isn't Unuthul's best feat causing Luke to exert himself to overcome him? What's to stop Yoda from replicating that feat? The gap between the ROTS titans and GM Luke isn't massive enough that Luke could just stomp or handily defeat any of them. He'd actually have to exert himself to beat them, especially the ones with greater mastery, knowledge and hax like Yoda and Sidious (Windu and Anakin are comparably powerful but fall short in hax).
u kinda explained why i think unuthul > Yoda. u view luke as not much far above than yoda or sheev, while i do. its as simple as that.
He is far above them, it's just not ragdoll or stomp territory.
i personally do picture it as so, to be honest. it may be some exaggeration of my part, but i can see luke grabbing either of them without them ever breaking lose. i can see luke knocking them out with some force push, or read their thoughts almost as easily as Vader did to luke in ROTJ. i suppose its purely a matter of opinion in this case, since there is no set difference in power for them and luke.
ILS
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:00 pm
@BoD wrote:Isn't Unuthul's best feat causing Luke to exert himself to overcome him? [1]What's to stop Yoda from replicating that feat? [2]The gap between the ROTS titans and GM Luke isn't massive enough that Luke could just stomp or handily defeat any of them. 
1. What is there to suggest he could?...
2. Uhm, DE Luke was already better than Yoda by about a full tier given that he was outdueling DE Sheev before he had even fully unlocked the dormant power inside him from learning the lesson of "luminous beings" as detailed in the endnotes. He has stated further growth in subsequent series like Jedi Academy and Black Fleet Crisis, and then in TUF he gets over all of his issues of using his full raw power. To give an idea, Luke can use so much raw power every cell in his body burns with Force energy, which was directly compared to the dark side corruption that Sidious suffered from... Yoda can't even use that much of his own power on a relative basis, and Luke is naturally more powerful than Yoda.

It's post-TUF Luke who fought Unuthul. So while I'm not really interested in who wins this thread, you are going to have an extremely difficult time proving that DE Sidious, DE Luke and especially TUF Luke haven't jumped a tier or two above Yoda.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:11 pm
exatcly. thank u young man.
BoD
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:37 pm
1. What is there to suggest he could?...

Feats, accolades and scaling.


2. Uhm, DE Luke was already better than Yoda by about a full tier given that he was outdueling DE Sheev before he had even fully unlocked the dormant power inside him from learning the lesson of "luminous beings" as detailed in the endnotes.
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Rco02310
Note Leia and the glow surrounding her. Leia had also joined her power with Luke prior to the wall of light. Luke had been joined to Leia for a while at this point, based on her dialogue.



★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Rco02510


He was also stomped shortly before this in their first duel. 



He has stated further growth in subsequent series like Jedi Academy and Black Fleet Crisis,

Which doesn't make a difference. He's still vastly below DE Sidious at this point.




and then in TUF he gets over all of his issues of using his full raw power. To give an idea, Luke can use so much raw power every cell in his body burns with Force energy, which was directly compared to the dark side corruption that Sidious suffered from...



Quote?



Yoda can't even use that much of his own power on a relative basis,
Yoda has had similar comments made about his own power. Even just his passive presence in the Force is described as glowing and burning like a candle. There's no proof that Yoda can't handle that much power, especially if as I suspect that was Luke opening himself completely to the Force.


There's also the matter of differing narratives. Stover very, very rarely describes anyone's power in metaphorical or metaphysical description. The closest he's come to this is describing Sheev as a shadow, and even that was grounded. 




and Luke is naturally more powerful than Yoda.

Yeah, at his peak. Never denied that.

It's post-TUF Luke who fought Unuthul. So while I'm not really interested in who wins this thread, you are going to have an extremely difficult time proving that DE Sidious, DE Luke and especially TUF Luke haven't jumped a tier or two above Yoda.

As I said, prime Luke is undoubtedly > Yoda. That doesn't mean he'd defeat him easily, let alone ragdoll him. Ragdolling or stomping a powerful opponent is rare. Yoda is a tier 9 while Dooku is a tier 8, yet Yoda couldn't stomp him despite being undeniably fairly more powerful. Luke having to exert himself to beat Unuthul is no different. Just because you're more powerful doesn't mean that you can defeat them without exerting yourself, and Yoda has the feats, accolades and scaling to suggest that he's powerful enough to force Luke to exert himself, just as he did against Unuthul.

As for Unuthul, IIRC once Luke rooted himself he stomped him.


Last edited by BoD on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
DarthAnt66
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:41 pm
Tentatively switching my vote to Unu after discussion with @Quorian Debatist. Might write something supporting him later.
ILS
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:54 pm
Leia was unlocking hidden resources within Luke. Her external contribution, to whatever meagre extent it helped, is made up for decades of power mastery increases before we even get to TUF.

Luke being stomped in the first duel has to do with the fact he was growing continuously through DE, and particularly during the final duel. That's... kind of the point of the story.

Luke outdueled DE Sheev, but couldn't overcome his Lightning alone. That still puts him a tier above Yoda.

All citations for DE-TUF Luke can be found in this post(s): https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1481p125-top-fifteen-tournament-5-anakin-skywalker-darth-krayt#29384

No, BoD. Your Force Signature burning like a candle is not the same as your cells burning with Force energy. Yoda has never done this: we only see it from people entering Oneness-like states or in rare cases like with Luke where they can summon it at will (in fact I don't know anyone else who can do it as casually as Luke. When he was making a double layered illusion of the Jade Shadow Mara remarked that while Luke was practically undergoing nuclear fusion, he "knows what he's doing").

Key word being "natural" - I'm talking about natural talent and potential.
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:58 pm
Will reply later but is it this quote you're talking about?



But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control Luke demonstrated now. His single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty. He took the steps at a lightning pace, burning his way through dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye.


Or this?


He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:10 pm
I'm referring to the Dovin Basal and Jade Shadow feats.
Ziggy
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:30 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
I see how this tourney is starting to shape up. 

I switch my vote form Darth Caedus to the Droideka in Survior Quest.
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 4 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda

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