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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on January 12th 2020, 3:30 pm
@darthant66 wouldnt it be wiser to get the top 15 first, then arrange their order?
DC77 (Reborn)
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on January 12th 2020, 3:30 pm
Unu's a beast to be sure. Kinda wish I'd voted for him over KF Vader but the damage is done. No clue why my comment was deleted but just to reiterate I'm voting Unu, but I'll put my voice behind Yoda if Revan somehow passes Unu and ends up against Yoda in the final stages.
mr dinky
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on January 12th 2020, 3:47 pm
revan should be next idk why he isnt placed yet especially the shadow of revan
DC77 (Reborn)
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on January 12th 2020, 3:53 pm
Revan's not been placed yet because he's capped below ROTS Sidious via supremacy quotes, and by extension KF Vader and Yoda.
The lord of hunger
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on January 12th 2020, 3:55 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Revan's not been placed yet because he's capped below ROTS Sidious via supremacy quotes, and by extension KF Vader and Yoda
I Bet to say unuthul should have been above kf vader and yoda.....
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on January 12th 2020, 3:58 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Revan's not been placed yet because he's capped below ROTS Sidious via supremacy quotes, and by extension KF Vader and Yoda.
how? revan is not a sith therefore he isnt bound by any quotes
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on January 12th 2020, 4:04 pm
@mr dinky: Vitiate is a sith, and per all availible evidence, he's superior to Revan.

@the lord of hunger: No clue what you're even trying to say here.
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on January 12th 2020, 4:06 pm
I'm curious: why isn't Unuthul a banned character? He's drawing on an external amp for his power. And its one of the most powerful amps we've ever seen.
The lord of hunger
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on January 12th 2020, 4:06 pm
i say that unuthul should been voted before than kf vader and yoda also been much higher


Last edited by The lord of hunger on January 12th 2020, 4:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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on January 12th 2020, 4:08 pm
@the lord of hunger:

i say that unuthul should been voted before than kf vader and yoda also been much higher

In that case I agree.
mr dinky
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on January 12th 2020, 4:12 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@mr dinky: Vitiate is a sith, and per all availible evidence, he's superior to Revan.

@the lord of hunger: No clue what you're even trying to say here.
SOR revan isnt even a sith nice research there bud
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EmperorCaedus
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on January 12th 2020, 4:13 pm
@ILS wrote:I'm curious: why isn't Unuthul a banned character? He's drawing on an external amp for his power. And its one of the most powerful amps we've ever seen.
If that were the case Nyax should be banned as well.
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on January 12th 2020, 4:16 pm
@EmperorCaedus wrote:
@ILS wrote:I'm curious: why isn't Unuthul a banned character? He's drawing on an external amp for his power. And its one of the most powerful amps we've ever seen.
If that were the case Nyax should be banned as well.
We used unamped Nyax.
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on January 12th 2020, 4:24 pm
@ILS wrote:I'm curious: why isn't Unuthul a banned character? He's drawing on an external amp for his power. And its one of the most powerful amps we've ever seen.

Good point. @DarthAnt66, Care to address the issue?
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on January 12th 2020, 4:28 pm
@mr dinky wrote:
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@mr dinky: Vitiate is a sith, and per all availible evidence, he's superior to Revan.

@the lord of hunger: No clue what you're even trying to say here.
SOR revan isnt even a sith nice research there bud
That's not what he was saying. SWTOR Vitiate (a Sith) is > any Revan, and Vitiate is a Sith and is subject to those supremacy quotes. Ergo, Revan < Vitiate < Sidious.
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on January 12th 2020, 4:29 pm
I have nothing against him being in the tourney, just curious. Its like using battle-meditation versions of characters, or Luke-amped Jaina.. except the combined potential of trillions of killiks.
DarthAnt66
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on January 12th 2020, 4:30 pm
@ILS @Azronger

My impression of UnuThul's power is not that it's a "momentary or circumstantial amp" but rather a constant and integrated power-source he can draw from whenever. Though, if everyone's switching over to UnuThul and regretting he's not higher, perhaps we can temporarily ban him until we do the reorganizing?

Edit: I also recognize that I have Lomi Plo and Welk banned, which seems unfair when UnuThul is not. I'm growing more fond of banning him until the reorganization, then we can decide if we want to include Unu/Plo/Welk or not.


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on January 12th 2020, 4:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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on January 12th 2020, 4:32 pm
Switching my vote to Unuthul. While I think Yoda could replicate his feats, I'm not nearly a good enough debater to make a convincing case for it when Unuthul has the better feats.
The lord of hunger
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on January 12th 2020, 4:32 pm
That Will be a good idea
Seturna
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on January 12th 2020, 4:34 pm
Yoda
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on January 12th 2020, 5:01 pm
Fine with Ant's idea.

Voting for big dick energy kilik tamer and if he is banned then I'll withhold
DC77 (Reborn)
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on January 12th 2020, 5:03 pm
@BoD:

That's not what he was saying. SWTOR Vitiate (a Sith) is > any Revan, and Vitiate is a Sith and is subject to those supremacy quotes. Ergo, Revan < Vitiate < Sidious.

Thanks for explaining it too him, it seems some people lack reading comprehension.
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Quorian Debatist

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on January 12th 2020, 5:04 pm
@Azronger wrote:@Quorian Debatist Can you provide more details for UnuThul supposedly pressuring Luke? What mindset was Luke in? We know that Luke can just pin UnuThul to a wall and completely negate his telekinesis - that sort of Force disparity seen in an actual fight is extremely rare and denotes a gap like Yoda vs. S1 Ventress or Sheev vs. Sedriss. I don't doubt DN Luke is more powerful than Yoda, even vastly more powerful, but I'd need more convincing he can completely fodderize Yoda in two seconds with just telekinesis. Not even Sidious could outright tear through Maul's Force barriers in Shadow Conspiracy.

While the actual fight may have seemed fairly uneven, it's more the fact that Raynar can still keep up with and comprehend Luke using his full speed. He's taking advantage of where Luke was by throwing what may have possibly been kill shots to a slower opponent. The issue is that Luke could see little mistakes and Luke is a nightmare to fight considering he's cheap as hell; kicking out the back of legs, stomping knees, lots of punches, etc. Apparently just a pivot - something common in fights both Star Wars and real life - allows Luke to boot out the back of his legs for some reason. Raynar recovers quick and the only thing Luke can do is cut off his arm after he watches Raynar fall, levitate, and attack all in one fluid motion.

Of course not the greatest feat in lightsaber display, but it's not hard to see him doing a little better against a lesser duelist. If they got close to him. Basically the idea is he'd be good enough to stave off an opponent so he can get back to spamming force attacks.

---

As noted Luke was going all-out. Not only that but Luke also had to train specifically to counter Lomi Plo's power. She was able to dampen his reflexes, and become invisible - both in the force and visually - based on any sort of doubt of Luke. The Killiks took advantage of this by Luke's mother being introduced by him and tying her death to Mara Jade. Luke was basically told he was abandoned by his mom, watched Anakin choke his mom, kill younglings, and everything else that would sow the seeds of doubt. It was essentially a retread of NJO but instead of "fear" it was "doubts" and Luke had to get rid of all of his "doubts" before he was ready to face Lomi. Only when he casts all doubts she could take advantage of aside did he feel ready to face Lomi, and this is the state he fought Unuthul in.

So it's possible that this is the best mindset combined with physical well-being that Luke was ever in in any appearance. So much so that he didn't panic when Unu was exploding shuttles from miles away in space - including the one Luke was in - that his "doubt" was so little that he completely destroyed Lomi Plo to a point where he was dragging her across the floor with the force.

So you combine that mindset with him using all his power and you have the one that fought Raynar. Very potent apparently.

---

Fair question. However as touched upon earlier there was a lapse in the combat before this happened.

Luke did not budge, and finally Raynar stopped struggling and met his eyes with a stunned and anguished gaze.

The Master sighed and shook his head. "What am I going to do with you, Raynar Thul?" he asked. "You learn nothing from your mistakes."

Luke deactivated his lightsaber and picked Raynar up by the collar and slammed him against the wall. He used the Force to pin him there, waiting for an answer to his question, watching as the expression in his captive's pained eyes turned from astonishment to anger to calculation.


Considering they just looked at each other like two Scottish twins watching the other drink the last of the juice, it's probable that all defenses were momentarily put on halt there. They just stared at each other, Luke had time to talk to him, then he pinned him. No struggling or anything in that moment until after he got pinned. We've seen smaller gaps in defenses lead to some seemingly big disparities. For example, Maul was capable of chokeslamming Kenobi twice while Kenobi was attacking on Florrum. Or to bring it back to Sheev vs Maul; Sheev started that fight by pinning both of them and just let it go.

With the way they just looked at each other it's likely defenses weren't fully erected. Not only that, but I'm not sure Luke being capable of treating Unu like how a stereotypical high school bully wedgies a small nerd is something I'd like to think of Luke's power as. Just walks up and starts pinning high level force users through their defenses?

Yes it's open to interpretation but the alternative raises Luke in my view higher than the "rooting" already does. If Luke could casually pin full-defensive Unu then I could see him doing it to Yoda too tbh. Very circular I know, but meh.

---

On the note of imagining however, I am still hugely impressed by the turbolaser feat.

Can you see Yoda bending CW era turbolaser barrages away from a frigate?

"Princess Leia?" Bwua'tu and Grendyl stepped to her side, their blaster pistols cocked to smash the first crawling thing they saw. "Where did it get you?"

"I'm..." Leia tried to rise and failed. "Not bugs... frigate..."

Bwua'tu frowned. "The frigate?" He pulled her up. "What about it?"

Leia wanted to answer, to tell him who was coming, but the dark weight inside was too much. She could not bring the words to mind, could not have spoken them even if they had come.

"I see," Bwua'tu said. "Grendyl, designate that vessel hostile... and make it a high-priority target."

A few moments later a turbolaser barrage streaked toward the frigate. A deep pang of sorrow washed over Leia as she awaited the coming explosion. Whatever Raynar had become among the Killiks, he had once been a Jedi and a close friend of her children, and she knew that his loss would leave her feeling empty and dismal.

Then, as the strike neared Raynar's vessel, the dark weight inside vanished, and Leia's strength surged back. Still gasping, she was about to report who was aboard, but the turbolaser barrage suddenly veered away and blossomed in empty space.

Grendyl cried out in astonishment, a murmur of disbelief rose from the survivors on the command deck, and Leia finally understood why the Killik gunners were such bad shots.

They weren't trying to hit The Ackbar.

When the second volley of turbolaser fire also veered away at the last instant, Bwua'tu narrowed his eyes and turned to Leia.

"What is it?" he asked. "Some sort of new shield?"

Leia shook her head. "It's Raynar Thul," she said. "And I think he's coming to take your ship."

Also keep in mind that they could build quad turrets that nearly rivaled CW-era turbolasers in 5.5!ABY:

For the original model of CC-7700s, this would have been a suicide mission, and a brief one at that. The Slash-E series, however, was clad in the latest carbon-nanofilament armor to supplement their six shield generators; they had eight quad turrets each and their power output had been upgraded to nearly the level of a Clone Wars-era turbolaser. Further improvements included a pair, dorsal and ventral, of 360-degree proton torpedo turrets and a staggering number of anti-starfighter cluster bombs-essentially shaped charges set into the hull that would explode outward into clouds of bomblets when they sensed the approach of enemy fighters-all of which meant that the only way TIE fighters could have a serious shot at taking out a Slash-E was to swarm it in enough numbers to overload its defenses so that a few could slip in for full-speed headers. But even a direct impact wouldn't generate enough kinetic energy to take out a CNF-armored frigate unless the TIE was traveling at very close to its maximum realspace velocity.


And they were always looking to advance turbolasers even only 5.5!ABY:

As Mindor turned its face from Taspan, out of the blood-colored west came waves of Republic starfighters. They hurled themselves at the dome's defenses with reckless abandon, their half-useless laser cannon battering the heavy armor of turbolaser towers. The towers, mounted on gimbals the size of spacecraft, tracked the streaking fighters, their massive guns pumping out so much plasma so fast that they superheated the nearby air into a titanic updraft, blasting a vast rolling mushroom cloud of corrosive sand and dust and smoke from the dome to the stratosphere.

Down through that cloud came wave after wave of TIEs.

There were so many that the atmosphere's effect on their cannons was irrelevant; they could destroy whole flights of X-wings by simply being airborne obstacles-their presence over the dome forced the Republic pilots to break formation and reduce their speed to avoid midair collisions .. . and the slightest reduction in speed could be fatal. Turbolaser drive technology had advanced in the years since the destruction of the first Death Star; these were far faster on traverse, and included range-sensitive trajectory-projection software that automatically timed their fire to intercept any starfighter unwary enough to go in a relatively straight line for more than a second at a time.

And against an unshielded X-wing, even a glancing hit from a tower-mounted turbolaser left nothing but an expanding globe of plasma.

So without looking into it too deep to exactly quantify the power, we have 30 years of advancements on that and Unuthul bending entire barrages away from The Ackbar - that were capable of ripping huge holes in 8km sized ships - along with CW-era turbolasers seemingly being a lot weaker than the almighty 5.5!ABY turbos.

I've been half-joking about the Taris example recently, but imagine a force user bending an entire barrage from these fodder-era turbolasers:





So going back to the start; it's not hard to imagine that Yoda couldn't replicate the same feat in TCW. Imagine Yoda just closing his eyes and sweeping away huge barrages on the OCW for example? Not saying Luke casually pins Yoda in full-defensive mode, but I think the turbolaser feat is utterly ridiculous considering pretty much any space battle in Star Wars. Unu was portrayed in that series as really powerful, and the onus was on Luke to prove he could beat him leading up to the end, and not vice-versa.

Essentially, an all-out Luke was shown to stave off an all-out Unuthul who was presumably using less power in every other instance, including the Turbos feat.

---

If that helps explain my thought process. Very impressed by Unu, and it's one of Luke's top 5 feats imo as opposed to "Oh I guess the person he fought just sucks" if you get my meaning.

[hideedit]


Last edited by Quorian Debatist on January 12th 2020, 5:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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on January 12th 2020, 5:05 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@BoD:

That's not what he was saying. SWTOR Vitiate (a Sith) is > any Revan, and Vitiate is a Sith and is subject to those supremacy quotes. Ergo, Revan < Vitiate < Sidious.

Thanks for explaining it too him, it seems some people lack reading comprehension.
Warning for showing sincere gratitude
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Quorian Debatist

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on January 12th 2020, 5:16 pm
If Unu is banned then idk. Yoda wouldn't be a bad vote I guess.

Not sure who to vote for but unless I specifically change it, count it for Yoda. I was only here for Raynar anyway. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #7 - Yoda - Page 6 1019854026
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