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AlexSerp
AlexSerp

Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

on Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:21 am
All-out.
Neutral ground.
LotF: Inferno Caedus.
FotJ: Apocalypse Workan.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

on Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:29 am
The only correlation between the two is that both are above Kyle Katarn by a huge margin, so it’s difficult to say with absolute certainty who’s better. Likewise comparisons with Luke Skywalker are worthless, as both fights are circumstantial. Ultimately, I would say Caedus takes it as he has more impressive feats in general (even though Workan’s upper limit is unknown) and unorthodox powers, in a good fight.
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

on Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:33 am
Caedus runs him into the ground. The best you can do for Workan is draw comparisons with Kyle, but those rely heavily on flimsy mental gymnastics. At this point in time Jacen is holistically a lot better, as are his feats and scaling.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

on Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:20 am
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Caedus runs him into the ground. The best you can do for Workan is draw comparisons with Kyle, but those rely heavily on flimsy mental gymnastics. At this point in time Jacen is holistically a lot better, as are his feats and scaling.

Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan 1289255181
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level One
Level One

Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

on Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:47 am
Jacen.
Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

on Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:15 am
Caedus wins.

Workan fought a holding back Luke and still suffered some serious injuries (while not inflicting any on Luke).
Caedus on the other hand fought against a bloodlusted Luke (who also had an element of suprise), and while he suffered serious injuries as well, he was able to inflict some in return.

MasterClighal wrote:The only correlation between the two is that both are above Kyle Katarn by a huge margin

What exactly puts Workan above Katarn?
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Moderator
Moderator

Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

on Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:40 am
Gaunter O’Dimm wrote:What exactly puts Workan above Katarn?

I already made my case here: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1481p50-top-fifteen-tournament-5-anakin-skywalker-darth-krayt#28722


Caedus on the other hand fought against a bloodlusted Luke (who also had an element of suprise), and while he suffered serious injuries as well, he was able to inflict some in return.

Are you aware that Luke was specifically noted to be mentally hindered during that fight?


Fury wrote:Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing—torturing—Luke’s only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he’d once loved…

Note that a mentally hindered Luke has had a degree of difficulty with Lumiya, making Caedus’s feat all he more suspect (or suspect insight, as HP would say). 
Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

on Fri Dec 27, 2019 12:29 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:
Gaunter O’Dimm wrote:What exactly puts Workan above Katarn?

I already made my case here: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1481p50-top-fifteen-tournament-5-anakin-skywalker-darth-krayt#28722


Caedus on the other hand fought against a bloodlusted Luke (who also had an element of suprise), and while he suffered serious injuries as well, he was able to inflict some in return.

Are you aware that Luke was specifically noted to be mentally hindered during that fight?


Fury wrote:Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing—torturing—Luke’s only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he’d once loved…

Note that a mentally hindered Luke has had a degree of difficulty with Lumiya, making Caedus’s feat all he more suspect (or suspect insight, as HP would say). 

Titles in themselves mean very little. Characters like Revan, the Hero of Tython and Anakin Skywalker all became the most powerful Jedi of their respective eras without (or in the Hero's case, before) attaining the rank of Master.

Just beceuse High Lords are supposed to be more powerful than regular Lords, doesn't necessarily mean they are. Workan is the best example. Unless there's an indication that he somehow became much more powerful in a matter of weeks/months between his promotion to the rank of High Lord and the Sashal quote, it is safe to assume that he possesed power above Sashal while still being a "mere" Lord. This is further reinforced by the fact that after Darish Vol's death, Workan effectively became the highest ranking Sith in the Tribe.

For all we know, the same could (and most likely do) apply to Viun Galaan (Katarn and Durron's inferior), but due to his relative lack of exposure, he didn't gather the same hype.

In fact, when comparing their fights with Luke directly, Galaan's performance comes out as better: 

  • It was stated outright that during his fight with Workan, Luke was holding back. In Galaan's case, we have no indication of that;
  • Workan sustained substantional injuries in his fight with Luke, while Galaan managed to remain intact;
  • If the length of the text is any indication of the length of the fight(s), Galaan fought with Luke longer than Workan (even if only slightly), before he was force to retreat


The quote you provided describes Luke's condition after the duel with Caedus, when he was contemplating recent events, not prior or during. More than anything else Luke was hurt by the fact that Ben came very close to the dark side:

Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:And no pain Luke suffered in that fight was equal to Ben demanding the right to finish Jacen. That demand had brought Luke to where he was now, sitting cross-legged on the floor of an upper-story room of an abandoned Imperial outpost, staring through a wide transparisteel viewport at a lush Endor forest he was barely aware of, his body healing but his spirit sick and injured even after all these days.

During the actual duel Luke was in "battle rage":

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped the garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probably that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side.


Last edited by Gaunter O'Dimm on Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total
EmperorCaedus
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Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:44 am
Caedus destroys.
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Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Ivaar Workan

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