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dark_globe
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enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 Empty Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul

October 29th 2019, 7:58 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:I thought the answer was obvious? Vader, duh.
no it wasn´t . or based on this where do you hold RoTJ vader than ?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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October 29th 2019, 7:58 pm
seems like i have a few minutes, so ill take advantage of that. and thanks, i made an account a while ago, just never used it before hahaha

1- whether it is 80%, 99%, or 50%, they would all make him stronger than TPM kenobi. Now, i dont think it matters as to how much 80% is, since, well, its 80% lol like, its pretty self explanatory. 80% of 10 is 8, and 80% of 1000 is 800. Mathematically speaking, they are both the same, and since we using numbers, math is pretty usable here.

2- that was supposed to say "ill take u on" but my grammar us meh lol

3- i dont think he is above jinn, but both were, whats it called, candidates, for the jedi council. im just saying they are in the same league. not exact equals. this is to say that "a jedi stronger than, or equal to TPM kenobi was beaten by a very, very, very pre prime vader".

4- why? u could the comment above. TPM kenobi<= council member< amped council member< galen< etc etc etc < prime vader. ill address the galen thing later

5- like now lol i will say i only skimmed through ur comment. albeit, i do have a reason for that- when i say galen, and vader being stronger than galen, i meant SK (star killer) galen. Vader is factually above SK galen, per well, word of god " too.

This is all part of the plan. "Yeah, yeah, you know, he caught me off guard once. I'll let him beat me this time so he takes me captive." --Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer...


You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll. --Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide..


so yeah, he is above. ill have to stop here, and continue later. sorry lol
NevesYtneves (DC77)
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October 29th 2019, 8:00 pm
Not sure what the relevance of the question is DG but whatever.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
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October 29th 2019, 8:01 pm
I hold Vader as slightly below TPM Kenobi overall but above guys like Koon, Marr, Act 3 Protags ect.
KingofBlades
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October 29th 2019, 8:02 pm
I'll just jump in on the conversation temporarily and point out that the 80% quote means nothing. You don't know that TPM Kenobi is below 80% of Sidious. He could be 81% for all we know. The lack of any reference points prevents the quote from being useful when debating characters not named Sidious and Vader
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October 29th 2019, 8:16 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd:

seems like i have a few minutes, so ill take advantage of that. and thanks, i made an account a while ago, just never used it before hahaha

Good to have you, you seem like a nice guy, unlike certain posters here.

1- whether it is 80%, 99%, or 50%, they would all make him stronger than TPM kenobi. Now, i dont think it matters as to how much 80% is, since, well, its 80% lol like, its pretty self explanatory. 80% of 10 is 8, and 80% of 1000 is 800. Mathematically speaking, they are both the same, and since we using numbers, math is pretty usable here.

What's the basis for that? Like I said, we have no reference point.

2- that was supposed to say "ill take u on" but my grammar us meh lol

I can relate, a lot of my posts are littered with typos because I don't check them properly lol. enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 228124001

3- i dont think he is above jinn, but both were, whats it called, candidates, for the jedi council. im just saying they are in the same league. not exact equals. this is to say that "a jedi stronger than, or equal to TPM kenobi was beaten by a very, very, very pre prime vader".

Yeah, but why does that put him on par with Jinn?

4- why? u could the comment above. TPM kenobi<= council member< amped council member< galen< etc etc etc < prime vader. ill address the galen thing later

Again, why are council members above TPM Kenobi?

5- like now lol i will say i only skimmed through ur comment. albeit, i do have a reason for that- when i say galen, and vader being stronger than galen, i meant SK (star killer) galen. Vader is factually above SK galen, per well, word of god " too.

A) Witwer isn't the word of God.

B) That quote is in reference to TFU 3, a game that was never released and is therefore non canon. Moreover, this quote was during the ideas phase, and something that may have been altered. The novel however, a canon source that was published, states Vader was going all out.

C) Vader gaining a momentary edge on a hyper-exhausted, near death SK with TK doesn't indicate superiority as an overall combatant.

D) Vader never tosses Galen like a ragdoll in the primary version of events that overrules the rest, the novel.
Blade_of_Dorin
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October 29th 2019, 8:21 pm
D A R L I N G
lorenzo.r.2nd
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October 29th 2019, 8:32 pm
i seem to have noticed that having no proof overrules common sense in this argument, so ill leave it at that, as far as TPM kenobi/vader goes

For the game, yeah, he kinda is. and even if he isnt, who do u think he answers to? who do u think he represents? whose thought-process do u think he follows?

Yeah, it kinda does. and u said that the force cant take away fatigue? thats false. 86 y/o dooku could do so, very easily, and has done so more than once, just as yoda and sidious have as well.

i never said vader didnt go all out. he did, after SK gained a big rage boost, iirc. and even then, with the rage boost, SK was trying to kill vader, while vader wasnt trying to kill him.

and the game is primary source, since we go by ur rules, and guess who directed the game? the OG word of god, if u will. so we either consider word of god supreme, we dont consider it at all, or we use common sense to read inbetween the lines, and ignore ridiculous shit that is spelled every so often. hell, i think there was a guy who said that valkorion is stronger than Sidious, and people jumped on that shit like it was the titanic at first.
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enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 Empty Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul

October 30th 2019, 2:55 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Before we begin, let's look at some seemingly contradictory things said by you the last 2 months on the topic of Vader:

Vader vs Plo Koon
Plo Koon did incredibly well against Savage Opress and Ventress. Both of whom were displayed above post-AOTC Kenobi at various intervals:
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Vader wins.

ESB Luke vs Ventress
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Let's look at what we have here:

>An OOU source proclaiming Ventress to be no threat to Vader.
>ESB Luke giving Vader a hell of a fight, driving him back repeatedly, tagging him and holding up under his offensive.

I don't give a rat's ass what Ventress has done, we have a clear cut comparison between the two.

Vader vs Jedi Dooku
Jedi Dooku was above TPM Mace and therefore above Maul, Jinn, and TPM Kenobi
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:
StrangerThingsFan77 wrote:Vader is more powerful, but Dooku is more skilled. I'll back Vader though.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Ben doesn't decline in force power, only overall so he probs just TK stomps right off the bat. Combatively he's declined but is still equal to Vader who's considerably better than AOTC Kenobi so he stomps there as well. AOTC Kenobi doesn't have a hope in hell.

ROTJ Luke vs Hett
Hett was a Jedi Master who did well against post-ROTS Kenobi, outskilled the Dark Woman as a Padawan, and gets the upper hand on an angry TCW Anakin
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:
King Joker wrote:Hett’s (admittedly impressive) performance against Kenobi seems clearly riddled with circumstances (environmental advantage, motivational disparities). Luke’s parity/superiority to Vader impresses me more, so I’ll go with him in a close fight.

Today AoTC Anakin was above AoTC Kenobi
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Anakin is holistically portrayed as better tbh.

Vong Krayt vs Vader
Vong Krayt had all of Hett's feats, along with 2 decades of uninterrupted Dark Side growth, then his body was upgraded to handle Vong experiments, then he had over a century of Dark Side knowledge. Yes, his growth was stymied to an unquantifiable degree, but there's no reason he ever dropped below TPM Kenobi.
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Vader.

Vader 4 years prior to his peak
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Stops at 6. And yes, Vader is superior to TCW Kenobi.

Luke in this thread was a minimum 8, while he went much higher up
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:ROTJ Luke as a baseline is equal to Vader. With a rage boost he can stomp him. So yeah, base Luke should be an 8, enraged Luke should also be an 8 but much higher up.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Lucas never even says he's exactly 80%, he says he is "maybe", 80%, ie: it's not a certainty. For all we know Vader could be much lower. Moreover we have no reference point for what percentage of Sheev we place TPM Kenobi at so the point doesn't stand regardless (Not that I even believe TPM Kenobi>Vader lol).

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:
O-Siri wrote:Kenobi. Fact is all of Vader's showings ANH-RotJ are sub-TPM Kenobi. Lucas's statement is consistent with OT Vader's showings. People argue his pre-OT feats and say he grew rapidly. I say Suit-Vader was at his peak in his mid-twenties and went downhill from there. Who says everyone grows with age? Many prizefighters lose their skills and desire when they reach their mid-forties and struggle with journeymen and over-the-hillers, they would have easily crushed in their prime, which is basicly what Vader was doing; struggling with raw and inexperienced Luke and old past it Obi-Wan.

We have quotes stating Vader grew though rendering your point irrelevant.

OT-Vader.

Which means Vader had 4 years of growth from this:
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:That topic is entirely irrelevant to the current discussion at hand - that being whether Vader underperformed against Ben Kenobi. There's no evidence that indicates this fact, however there is a shit ton of source books, and the primary material itself, which present the two combatants as evenly matched. With nothing supporting the notion you've provided, we must thus assume Vader and Kenobi are equals. Furthermore there is evidence regarding the infamous duel on Mustafar which can lead you to the conclusion Anakin underperformed, far more than there is in favour of Vader underperforming on the Death Star.


DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Thread is EU, unless specified otherwise. So far you have failed to do so, meaning that Lucas's word still counts.

The problem with using Lucas' words is that unlike a random writer, he was distinctly aware of the direction his story was going; even if he hadn't delved into all the details yet. Lucas already knew 30 years before making the prequels that Anakin was a Jedi Knight that apprenticed under Obi-Wan, Anakin was old enough to impregnate a girl. and that Anakin fell into a volcano in a great battle with Obi-Wan. Hell, he already knew Anakin was a great and powerful Hero in the Clone Wars. In combination with him currently writing the second movie when that quote was stated, it's highly doubtful he's put himself under the constraints of a time when Anankin wasn't even a Jedi yet, nor old enough to produce sperm.

Now, that's not to say he knew all the details he was going to write, but it is enough to understand that he's not restricting himself to a time where nothing important happens in his outline. He is selling an entire trilogy after all and he still knows he has so much more to tell of this era. Lucas had the steering wheel to what he was going to do. He didn't have to walk on eggshells with fortune telling because Leorge Gucas might have contradicted his work down the line.

Now, if you will can you provide the exact quote so we can discuss this further?


DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Couple of things to note here:

1) Lucas himself is inherently unsure about the statement, saying that it's maybe the case, rather than treating it as irrefutable.

2) The 80% is impossible to quantify, we have no reference point for what it actually means. What is 10%? What is 60%? Starting to see my point here? 

Lucas is unsure of the statement because he gives an estimate, then likens Vader to Dooku and Maul - both above TPM Kenobi - to explain further.

So 80 percent is unquantifiable even though it's an actual number to work with, but Starkiller is really tired and that means we can downplay the impressiveness completely? Are you not a Caedus fan, how do you make the leap from Sing vs Jacen to Peak Darth Caedus for example? How much power did he quantifiably grow to prove that fight irrelevant to his peak? Why would he ever stomp Mara based on assuming the growth? Would Mara not always give him a challenge based on the closeness? What actually happened to show he could easily beat Mara for example? You see where I'm going with this.

But. why would KF Vader deserve the next spot on the list or be above DE Luke, or Unuthul?
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Yup, it's HP.

OT-Throw me in for my boy KF Vader. Anakin wank needs to cleans-weep through this round.
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Vader.
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Thul could win via telepathy however I'd favour Vader conventionally. Either way.

Basically Anakin with completely unquantifiable growth can beat those that hover around DE Sheev's body levels because...? Something seems off here friend.  enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 39523600



And what is 80 percent? It means that if Vader gained 25 percent of his own power more that he'd be equal to Sheev. If put into lifting numbers, it means that if Vader can lift 80 tons, then he would only have to lift 100 tons to reach Sheev's level. If Vader could move at 80mph, then he would need to move 100mph to be as fast as Sheev. In the world of Star Wars, it means that 20 percent of Vader's total power is enough to create a ragdoll gap between him and Sheev. While that creates a firm gap between the two, it still establishes what percentages of Vader's power can do. If Vader is equal to a guy who can lift a Star Destroyer worth a million tons, then Sheev can lift one 1.25 million tons.

If you really want to act incredulous about an actual number. Not that I care about the quote, but I don't think you raised enough concerns to erase it.


DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Dismissing everything I just noted as "well he was tired" is utterly ridiculous. He'd literally burnt himself out atomising the Salvation, then done a repeat performance of that by fighting his way through an army that outclassed Vader (Something you failed to address) all before going up against the man himself. The text explicitly emphasises that he was more exhausted than when his very survival was at stake. Also, proof Vader was holding back?

There's an important distinction between regaining force reserves (What SK had to do, and washing away fatigue). The former is impossible without food and extensive meditation, ergo, SK was still exhausted. And while your point about the dark side is true, it's irrelevant as SK never drew upon the dark side for a rage amp during their fight.

But can you quantify the degree he dropped in power? Can you quantify how he was able to fight with no added emphasis placed on how badly his body was burned out when comparing it to a time where he "was 2 tired 2 think?"

When you yourself get tired, do your strength and speed drop to a point where it's huge percentages, or do they drop by minuscule amounts until you simply can't go on anymore because the exhaustion takes over? And if you're still capable of going on after dropping, do you think that adrenaline to continue on mitigates a lot of the "strength" you lost? Do you think when people get a second wind that it's just their zombie state at drastically low levels working? Do you remember a time in your life where you were so tired that your strength actually dropped by half because you were so tired for example? Even at my weakest and most exhausted, I don't recall a time when I've failed to bench half of my max for example. And this is just a normal human's ability to cope with a real-life situation, nevermind drawing on the Force like Jedi and Sith are want to do to alleviate exhaustion. Nor do I think still being comparable to your original body a year earlier prior to a Kenobian level revelation is enough to show a vast decline of your own prowess.

Or are we forgetting that Vader fought on par with the original Starkiller at his peak prior to a year of Vader's own growth? Yes, I understand he acquired a Kenobian revelation, but the rest of the game's growth is still open grounds. Including being comparable to Shaak Ti months before he fought Vader. Shaak Ti had decades to grow in power from her ragdolling Magnaguards for example.

So what you're left with is trying to prove that Starkiller lowered in power enough to where he is equal or slightly greater than the first game's protagonist. Why is this a low feat exactly? Why is this important? Even if you were correct, it still means Vader and "exhausted" Starkiller were both operating at an incredibly high level.



Getting back to TPM Kenobi, ANH Vader was comparable in power to Ben Kenobi. Vader states that he retained his skill which was enough to put him in the range of 8 on the Guillardian scale, but his power grew weaker. What this means is that Old Ben was somewhat weaker than LetGobi-Wan, but his skill was the same. The idea that this puts him below TPM Kenobi who most certainly was far below ROTS Kenobi in both skill and power is asinine.
If we ever need evidence of his growth in skill we can look to AoTC where he got slaughtered by Dooku casually. Fast forward 3 years and he was capable of fighting on par with a guy who can defeat Dooku...

IN YOUR OPINION

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Vader wins. (click me)

So the idea that someone as skilled as ROTS Kenobi losing to TPM Kenobi in sabers is odd to say the least. I'd speak of power, but you already covered power and all out:

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Kenobi wins sabers by the skin of his teeth. Loses force and all out badly.



Circling back around. Vader had 4 years of growth from both Kenobi and the Starkiller fights. Unquantifiable sure, but no more than exhaustion draining SK's power. And at least Vader's growth was important enough to make a distinction at important intervals in the movies; which indicate it wasn't just a depiction of a similar level of power.



DC77 (Reborn) wrote:A weakness he has in any fight you mean? Moreover, SK demonstrated superiority by getting him into a position where disabling him with lightning was possible. Either way, SK's still better.

A weakness he doesn't have against Maul, nor does Luke have here.

SK got into that position by giving up, or by losing ground.


DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Why would we presume Vader's musings are accurate?

Also, I was banned for a month but last I was here you weren't. Welcome to the forum man, hope you enjoy your stay.

enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 228124001

Why would we presume Vader's musings where he feels at the height of his power and has faced Obi-Wan inaccurate? Why would we assume that Vader literally getting hammered into submission to the point of injury in a 30-second (35 if you include the degloving) timespan inaccurate?  Say what you will about TFU 2 Starkiller exhaustion, but that's exactly a reason to discount his "theoretical" peak if Vader didn't fight it and thus it has no relevance. And say what you will about Vader, but I don't recall a time he's lost as easily and quick against an opponent as he has against the Luke in this very thread.

So yeah, I'd assume it's accurate if we base it on the context. Why wouldn't they count?

Even without the musing, this still puts rage Luke at incredibly high levels that many capable Force Users have failed to accomplish. Many people I've no doubt you put above TPM Kenobi level.



Not that I think Dark_Globe or Lorenzo need any interference, but I just felt compelled to point out these minor details they might miss. Other than this, I think both sides are doing great. Keep it up gents! enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 1289255181
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October 30th 2019, 3:46 am
If we take the parallels between Zonakin and rage Luke seriously it's a wash for Maul.
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October 30th 2019, 4:33 am
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:I hold Vader as slightly below TPM Kenobi overall but above guys like Koon, Marr, Act 3 Protags ect.
You keep flip flopping your opinions. You told me on another thread that he is above TPM Kenobi, and now you are saying he isn't ? Either that or you are trolling
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October 30th 2019, 5:51 am
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Luke dominating sub TPM Kenobi Vader isn't impressive when we stack it up against Maul's feats.

OT-Maul.
Bait.

Luke handily. Better in sabers and better in the Force. Not sure he's Vader's equal in the Force even with the rage amp, but he's still considerably more lethal than Maul.


Last edited by WalkingInCircles on October 30th 2019, 5:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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October 30th 2019, 5:51 am
SithSauce wrote:
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:I hold Vader as slightly below TPM Kenobi overall but above guys like Koon, Marr, Act 3 Protags ect.
You keep flip flopping your opinions. You told me on another thread that he is above TPM Kenobi, and now you are saying he isn't ? Either that or you are trolling
If someone says ROTJ Vader ~ TPM Kenobi, take it as trolling.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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October 30th 2019, 8:06 am
Ah, if may just say, vader being worse than Anakin as far is fighting goes, and being below lvl 9 is actually not stated even once. his body's unsurpassable restrictions physical restrictions are what makes people think he is less skilled. As far TFU2 goes, he might best the best duelist in the verse (sheev says that his skills are better than any sith before him, and that they are unsurpassed, then he is said to be the deadliest being alive, most skilled fighter, shit like that, in the galaxy, a good 3 times over- this puts him above sheev, dooku, maul, obi wan, and even yoda if u use the sheev scaling. I can find the exact quotes, if yall want to see them)
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October 30th 2019, 8:16 am
Provide the alleged quotes.
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October 30th 2019, 8:21 am
Damn, these are exactly the kind of debates one needs to stay away from.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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October 30th 2019, 8:36 am
"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire." --Revenge of the Sith...


Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder. --Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide...



[i]No one was a match for the lightsaber skills of the dark lord of the Sith. --Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game: The Shadow Syndicate...
[/i]


[i][i]By the time the Emperor assigns him to assist Grand Moff Tarkin in the construction of the Death Star battle station, Vader is the deadliest warrior of his generation, shielded by imposing armor, steeled by countless combats, and empowered by the dark side of the Force. --Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Revised Core Rulebook...
[/i][/i]


He honed his lightsaber skills, wielding the blade with blinding speed. --The Essential Guide To Characters...


then he got a good bit better by ESB


Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. -- Insider #62... 



then even more skilled and deadly in ROTJ


Darth Vader presses forward... strong, skillful, sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever! --Return of the Jedi Comic...


NIck Rostu says that vader is the only person he knew who could stand a chance against mace windu (he is speaking about 19 BBY suited vader, i tbelieve)


"You knew Old Republic Jedi?"
"Met a few. Only really knew one. Dead now, of course."
"Of course."
"Way I heard it, Vader killed him personally."
Luke let his eyes close. "Vader? You're sure?"
"Had to be. Nobody but Vader would have had a chance." --Luke Skywalker And The Shadows Of Mindor...
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October 30th 2019, 11:56 am
Just a thought... Maul is notoriously good at using a Jedi's rage against them per the TPM novel + tons of tertiary sources, and his first fight with TCW Kenobi. He could leverage that against Luke and give himself an opening.

I think sabers is a serious weak point of Vader's so I'm not convinced Luke would batter Maul down the same way, his much superior agility + the aforementioned tactical ability would help mitigate Luke's rage.

Luke normally at this time I would say is a weaker duelist than Maul, but the rage amp helps him bridge the gap. So it's close but I think with some shrewd use of tactics Maul can undermine Luke for the win.
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October 30th 2019, 8:05 pm
^ This, actually. Vader's best lightsaber feat IMO is holding the upper hand against Ben while emotionally hindered (see R&FoDV for reference). Luke's rage will stop him from seeing clearly considering that it turned him from refusing to fight no matter what to dismembering Vader. He won't think clearly, and I can actually see Maul taking a solid majority. Still, while Luke isn't as powerful as Vader he'll still win in the Force.
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October 30th 2019, 10:47 pm
yeah, luke might stomp TPM maul in the force tbh. anything bar TCW and rebels gets rekt in the force side. and even then, no form of maul is faster than luke, so speed is the same regardless. luke is surely stronger, especially when enraged. he is dumber and less trained overall though, so thats a big problem
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November 2nd 2019, 12:26 pm
Given what an enraged Luke did to Vader, I would definitely back him.
O-Siri
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enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 Empty Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul

November 2nd 2019, 2:52 pm
Quorian Debatist wrote:Getting back to TPM Kenobi, ANH Vader was comparable in power to Ben Kenobi. Vader states that he retained his skill which was enough to put him in the range of 8 on the Guillardian scale, but his power grew weaker.
What this means is that Old Ben was somewhat weaker than LetGobi-Wan, but his skill was the same. The idea that this puts him below TPM Kenobi who most certainly was far below ROTS Kenobi in both skill and power is asinine.

If we ever need evidence of his growth in skill we can look to AoTC where he got slaughtered by Dooku casually. Fast forward 3 years and he was capable of fighting on par with a guy who can defeat Dooku...
He had some of his old skill:


Death Star wrote:He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force.


And lightsaber technique is only one facet of a fighter's repertoire. Ben's body is a shell of what it once was. He's not nearly as athletic as he was twenty years prior. 

And statements of Ben's power being equal to Vader is BS. Kenobi was tiring and it wasn't a particularly intense duel either; both fighters were mostly waiting each other out and coming on in spurts and then backing off. It was a tactical duel from both sides, it should not be this exhausting for someone who in his heyday withstood the full offensive onslaught of Grieovus and Mustafar Vader.  Heck even in a recent and up to date source, the Junior novel, Kenobi was getting lightheaded just from being in Vader's presence:


A New Hope Junior Novel wrote:Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyelids fluttered again.

Somehow I don't find it hard to believe that a young man, in the prime of his life, who lasted a marathon duel with Maul in a super intense fast-paced all-out war, beating the shell of his prematurely aged counterpart who's been out of practice for nearly two decades and can barely keep up with Vader in a slow-paced tactical duel. The statements of Ben being a shadow of his former self is well backed up, by all the main sources and his onscreen performance.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 Empty Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul

November 2nd 2019, 3:00 pm
that shell and what not, applies only to his physicals. in almost everything else, he got better at. his force augmentation shouldve been better if anything. so should his precog
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 Empty Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul

November 2nd 2019, 3:41 pm
...Lucas also debunked the idea that they were slow, crippled and old as a factor by confirming it was a purely logistical quote, lmao.
dark_globe
dark_globe

enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul - Page 2 Empty Re: enraged RoTJ luke vs SoD darth maul

November 2nd 2019, 5:43 pm
70s technology simply did not allow for that duel to look better on screen .
for real experience you should watch star wars sc 38 reimaginate video on youtube .
this is how that fight between ben and vader should have looked like .
it also depicts the balance of power between the two much more accurately and vader finally doesn´t look like a slow cyborg on screen .
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