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Darth caedus vs plagueis

19 - 59%
13 - 41%
 
Total Votes: 32
Seturna
Seturna

Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:53 pm
Who wins? Both  at their prime
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:06 pm
Plagueis, good fight.
Meatpants
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:12 pm
Plagueis stomps. Not a good fight.
BoD
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:15 pm
Darth caedus vs plagueis  QM-Md1
Vaylin is Plagueis, Caedus is Torian.
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:11 pm
Reasons for Plagueis stomping?
Meatpants
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:39 pm
I wanna see evidence that Caedus on a high tier 8 / tier 9 power level. Along with similar or better mastery and knowledge to Plagueis. And also how Caedus would answer midichlorian manipulation.
NotAA3
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:48 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Plagueis, good fight.
IG (Exists)
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:26 pm
Plagueis could either win a close one, or a decent fight. With MM it’s the latter.
dark_globe
dark_globe

Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:28 pm
plagueis wins , he is superior to caedus in just about everything .
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:09 pm
He's superior in popularity and is held higher on the forum, that's for damned sure, and we all know that's what's most important to our dear dark_globe.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:19 pm
Caedus has nothing matching Banite scaling, or Force unbalancing.

His lunch money is Plagueis'.
Azronger
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:14 am
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Reasons for Plagueis stomping?

If you give extensive reasons in ten different threads, I'll give some here.
Praxis
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:53 pm
For the people who voted Caedus; why?
xolthol
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:23 am
@Praxis wrote:For the people who voted Caedus; why?
Mainly because of his showing against Luke. The Luke that Caedus fought was way above DE Luke who was able to defeat in a lightsaber fight DE Sidious who is just an insane beast. Just take into account that RotS Sheev stomp the B-team despite the presence of Mace Windu. That Sidious grown by an unknown margin (but which seems pretty big tbf) between RotS and RotJ. And then in DE he become more powerful. That Sidious should have just trash Plagueis. Because of this, I think that Caedus isn't in Plagueis ragdoll range. 

Even though I think that Plagueis is the more powerful of the two as a force user, Caedus is clearly the superior lightsaber duelist. Knowing which amount of injury he can sustained, I think that he has more than enough time to close the gap between him and his opponent and destroy him in close quarter. Even though the MM argument can be used, I highly that Plagueis would be able to kill Caedus before this latter close the gap and kill him at close quarter.
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:41 am
@Azronger: If you insist.

@xolthol: Normally I wouldn't respond to a pro Jacen post but I feel the requirement too in this instance.

Mainly because of his showing against Luke.

Why though? During the opening clash of blades Jacen was on his knees and about to be finished off, had it not been for him anchoring himself to a nearby Vong trap he would have almost certainly been killed. From then on Jacen only gets by through abusing the environment and striking at pre-existing injuries. Despite this, Luke still more or less dominates the fight, which would have ended for a second time roughly about 15 seconds later had it not been for Ben's distraction, and him finishing the fight with more damage dealt + less damage suffered in spite of the heavy circumstances in Jacen's favour.

The Luke that Caedus fought was way above DE Luke who was able to defeat in a lightsaber fight DE Sidious who is just an insane beast.

Again, why though? We know Luke was still emotionally scarred from the death of Mara, and witnessing his sith lord nephew torturing Ben fucked with his ability to use the force. The level of power Luke brought to bear is completely unquantifiable.

Caedus is clearly the superior lightsaber duelist.

For the third time, why though?

Knowing which amount of injury he can sustained,

Plagueis's pain tolerance isn't exactly bad either, for reference see his performance against the Maladians.


xolthol
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:26 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@DC77 (Reborn) Me+Caedus vs you+Plagueis = Darth caedus vs plagueis  2668642404 

 his showing against Luke.
This wasn't only based on his confrontation of Luke. There is other good showings for Caedus. For example:

  • when he managed to shut his Force presence up to the point that Luke and Mara cannot feel him at close range.

LotF: Bloodlines wrote:"I think Master Skywalker means the less formal response," said a voice behind Luke. He hadn't even felt Jacen enter the room. The fact that Jacen could startle him was disturbing. Mara turned, too, and even though Jacen was standing there in front of them, Luke couldn't feel him, and-judging by her expression and her little flare of anxiety in the Force-Mara couldn't, either.

Then, for the fight, yes Luke absolutely dominate Caedus. Nonetheless, Just keep in the mind that Luke was the first to engage the fight:
LotF: Inferno wrote:He was, in fact, standing in the doorway of a secret cabin filled with Yuuzhan Vong torture devices, watching his twisted nephew taunt his captive son. Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang

The only fact that Jacen managed not only to survived, despite not knowing where Luke will strike when spinning at first
LotF: Inferno wrote:Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.
But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.

And after this managed to land a hit on Luke
LotF: Inferno wrote:He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse

After being violently attacked by Luke, he still managed to dodge one of Luke lethal strike
LotF: Inferno wrote:then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber

Just this single part of the fight itself show that Jacen is an insanely good duelist, particularly knowing how good is Luke at this time.  

From then on Jacen only gets by through abusing the environment 
Well, being able to use your environnement during a fight o threw object at your opponent is something that nearly any combattant can do. Both Luke and Jacen know the existence of the rack. Both could have use it. Jacen was the first to do this. And clearly, except if you think that ae fight occured in a indestructible environnement, there is always a possibility for a fighter to use some object on the environnement to throw at his ennemy.

 We know Luke was still emotionally scarred from the death of Mara, and witnessing his sith lord nephew torturing Ben fucked with his ability to use the force. The level of power Luke brought to bear is completely unquantifiable

Definitively not true... We know that At the start of the fight (the only part on which I rely) Luke was in a battle rage. So clearly not hindered by anything (certainly the opposite to be realist)
LotF: Inferno wrote:he had even escaped the garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probably that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side.

All of this is for me the proof that Jacen is just an insanely good duelist, far above the league of Plagueis.

In addition, we have also the fact that:

  •  Jacen was considered by Luke as a match for him. Clearly this is a good proof of Jacen capacity as a fighter:

LotF: Fury wrote:Three YVH droids were left. And Jacen. Against Luke and Ben. Jacen was Luke's match, which meant Ben had to cope with three combat droids. The odds weren't good. Then the odds changed.


  • Jacen was able to resist his Stealth-X being completely destroy by Luke thanks TK

LotF: Revelation wrote:Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummaging furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart... 
Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing. Then he was aware of brilliant white light coming right at him. In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, al-most blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.
He was holding the fighter steady as much by the Force as by its controls, and trying to slow it with the Force as well, because the braking burn wasn't enough. He had to drop into that slot just right or he'd take the section out with him.

All of this (plus the scaling of Luke from Sidious) is for me the proof that Caedus isn't in Plagueis ragdoll range. 

Now the question is: can he win against Plagueis ?

Well, as already explained, Caedus have an insane pain tolerance. Even being able to draw on his pain to become more powerful. I higly doubt that Plagueis could kill Caedus before the latter come at close range where this will become a lightsaber fight. 

Plagueis's pain tolerance isn't exactly bad either, for reference see his performance against the Maladians.
True, but the difference is that when at close range, each blow of Jacen that will hit Plagueis will hindered the Muun Sith Lord. In opposition, to defeat Jacen, you need to deal damage that will disable him or kill him, every other damaged won't stop Caedus. 

At close range, Plagueis will have insane difficulty to stay alive (by using tutaminis or his lightsaber) and attacking Caedus in the same time. In addition, we know that Caedus have some tricks (such as powerful force illusion, poison dart, Aing-Tii flow walking,...) which will help him in this fight, allowing him to take the advantage over Plagueis. 

As for the MM, like I have already said, I'm not sure at all that Plagueis can kill Caedus with it before the latter face him at close range where Plagueis will loose.
EmperorCaedus
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:59 am
Caedus.
Seturna
Seturna

Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:23 am
@EmperorCaedus wrote:Caedus.

Reason?
EmperorCaedus
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:39 am
@Seturna wrote:
@EmperorCaedus wrote:Caedus.

Reason?
Caedus matching Luke-amped-Jaina, who is at least ~ Inferno Luke.

Also, scaling above Kyp's environmental feats, notably the Dovin Basal singularity.
Ziggy
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:09 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Also, scaling above Kyp's environmental feats, notably the Dovin Basal singularity.

Darth caedus vs plagueis  Tenor
DC77 (Reborn)
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:58 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@Xolthol:

Me+Caedus vs you+Plagueis =

I actually think Caedus wins now but a lot of these arguments are lazy, so I'll respond anyway. I must hurt you, to help you.

This wasn't only based on his confrontation of Luke. There is other good showings for Caedus. For example:

when he managed to shut his Force presence up to the point that Luke and Mara cannot feel him at close range.

Nothing about this feat is combatively quantifiable. Next.

Then, for the fight, yes Luke absolutely dominate Caedus. Nonetheless, Just keep in the mind that Luke was the first to engage the fight:

Concession accepted. Next.

The only fact that Jacen managed not only to survived, despite not knowing where Luke will strike when spinning at first

The fact that he was unable to position his blade correctly in time only proves how much slower he is than Luke, who he reacted to almost instantaneously. I'm not convinced Jacen was at any disadvantage during the opening, and it's your job to prove he is. Next.

And after this managed to land a hit on Luke

Due to abusing his esoteric pain tolerance, not due to personal power or skill. Next.

After being violently attacked by Luke, he still managed to dodge one of Luke lethal strike

By anchoring himself to a nearby Vong trap with the force, not due to his own power or skill. Next.

Just this single part of the fight itself show that Jacen is an insanely good duelist, particularly knowing how good is Luke at this time.

Considering how badly affected Luke's connection to the force was in this fight, and Luke's general trend of holding back his whole power I think you'll find it difficult to quantify how good Luke is as of this time, and until you provide evidence, I'm not going to be impressed by Jacen's performance here. Next.

Well, being able to use your environnement during a fight o threw object at your opponent is something that nearly any combattant can do. Both Luke and Jacen know the existence of the rack. Both could have use it. Jacen was the first to do this. And clearly, except if you think that ae fight occured in a indestructible environnement, there is always a possibility for a fighter to use some object on the environnement to throw at his ennemy.

Jacen was more familiar with the environment than Luke, and it has nothing to do with power, which is what will determine the outcome of this match, given it takes place on neutral ground. Next.

Definitively not true... We know that At the start of the fight (the only part on which I rely) Luke was in a battle rage. So clearly not hindered by anything (certainly the opposite to be realist)

We have a quote saying Luke's connection to the force was weaker than normal. Next.

Jacen was considered by Luke as a match for him. Clearly this is a good proof of Jacen capacity as a fighter:

The text is referencing the matching of the combatants, not the actual combative capability they possess. Next.

Jacen was able to resist his Stealth-X being completely destroy by Luke thanks TK

Jacen tried to match his power and failed dramatically, getting completely ragdolled. Why is this impressive? Next.

All of this (plus the scaling of Luke from Sidious) is for me the proof that Caedus isn't in Plagueis ragdoll range.

None of this leads to the conclusion you want it to. Next.

True, but the difference is that when at close range, each blow of Jacen that will hit Plagueis will hindered the Muun Sith Lord. In opposition, to defeat Jacen, you need to deal damage that will disable him or kill him, every other damaged won't stop Caedus.

Caedus will be hindered as well, his pain tolerance has defined limitations. Next.

Oh wait, we're done? Nice. Maybe next time use something of substance.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
BoD
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:01 am
Damn, DC's ragdolling.
The lord of hunger
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:41 am
Darth caedus vs plagueis  Now-th10
xolthol
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:44 pm
"DC77 (Reborn)" I will respond tomorow
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

on Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:37 pm
Hopefully with something of substance that's genuinely difficult to counter.
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Darth caedus vs plagueis  Empty Re: Darth caedus vs plagueis

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