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PeraltaEagle45
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Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi

on May 5th 2019, 10:54 am
Look, there's no doubt here that Vader wins. But Vader has never "stomped" anyone of note, so why should he start doing that with Mundi? Vader has consistently shown that he is unable to put away RotS Council-tier (and often lower) opponents easily. Take his fights with An'ya Kuro, ESB Luke, hell, even Sha Koon. You'd have to argue that Vader underwent MASSIVE growth from ANH to RotJ, which is not substantiated by any source (he grew, but there's nothing that indicates he went from "moderately above council-tier" to "effortlessly ragdolls the most powerful Council member not named Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, or Anakin"). Again, Vader obviously wins here, but let's not get carried away.
SithSauce
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on May 5th 2019, 11:22 am
@SithArchaelogist Nah Vader did stomp ESB Luke. He also stomped a few Jedi masters on Kessell (one of them has extremely good accolades, that perhaps are on par with Mundi's)


Last edited by SithSauce on May 5th 2019, 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
SithSauce
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on May 5th 2019, 11:30 am
@Darthant66 IMO this quote should be taken with a grain of salt. The movie depicts Vader toying with Luke in ESB.
Then there are quotes stating Luke was outmatched by Vader.
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on May 5th 2019, 11:34 am
Sorry, I removed my post because I wanted to write more on it later after finals.
SithSauce
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on May 5th 2019, 11:49 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Sorry, I removed my post because I wanted to write more on it later after finals.

Fair enough. I can't see any logical reasoning in thinking Luke put up a good fight against Vader in ESB. Sure he did about as well against him than an Average padawan would have done. But the point of that fight was to show how outclassed Luke was.  During the beginning we see Vader taunting him and then push him back on the floor with just one hand on his saber. He could ended the fight right there.

We see Luke kick him off the platform, but this was just part of Vader's game he was playing with him.

Then, we see Vader instantly overwhelm Luke by using objects to throw at him, in which Luke could barely fend off.

His whole goal is to get Luke to join him. He isn't going to go bloodlusted on his own son
Azronger
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on May 5th 2019, 2:20 pm
@SithArchaeologist

SithArchaeologist wrote:Look, there's no doubt here that Vader wins. But Vader has never "stomped" anyone of note, so why should he start doing that with Mundi?

That's an argument from ignorance; when you employ fallacies, logic itself breaks down, and thus the argument is invalidated by default. Even had Vader never stomped anyone noteworthy, that doesn't mean we can't infer from his accolades and feats that he should be hypothetically capable of doing so. And you're wrong anyway; he has stomped impressive folk before. The Starkiller clone comes to mind immediately, but I'll handicap myself here and not bring him up as it opens a can of worms of its own, and Ant's going to respond to me regarding the topic in a little over a month or so. However, may I introduce you to Ma'kis'shaalas?

Firstly, Ma'kis is a former member of the Morgukai, a cult of "peerless duelists" and "among the only non-Force users to repeatedly defeat both Jedi and Sith in melee combat", of which Ma'kis was "one of the greatest":

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Ma_kis10

On top of his Morgukai combat training which every member receives, Ma'kis was not only Force-sensitive but a Jedi Master. A Force-sensitive Morgukai "would be unstoppable in time":

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Ma_kis13

Ma'kis proved to be "one of the most brutal combatants of the Jedi Order":

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Ma_kis12

And what does Vader do to him? He stomps him with a single swing of his blade while battling other Jedi simultaneously:

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Ma_kis14
Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Ma_kis15

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Ma_kis11

For added context, this feat occurred just one month after Mustafar, when Vader had no clue how to properly fight in his suit, and he was in a shitty emotional state as detailed in this link - a Force user's emotional state is one of, if not the most important thing factoring into their combat performance.

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Purge_10

This is Vader at the weakest he's been in any source. Ever. Yet even then he can utterly butcher a guy with very impressive credentials. After embracing the dark side fully and clearing his mind of any doubt or regrets, over the course of 24 years, Vader would have grown by leaps and bounds. Here're some more examples of him destroying high caliber opposition. Ragdolling Rahm Kota, who could bring down a large observation center:



(2:20)

Before anyone else could react, Kota whisked the lightsaber from Starkiller's belt and launched himself at the Dark Lord. Vader raised a hand and caught the general telekinetically about the throat. Kota dropped the lightsaber and desperately clutched at the invisible fingers choking him, but the pressure only increased. When his resistance was crushed, Vader threw him bodily toward the stormtroopers and turned his attention elsewhere.

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed



(1:19)

After getting over his confusion, Vader blitzes PROXY in two moves while the droid was using his most dangerous training module. PROXY has proved a challenge for mid game Galen with inferior training modules, and even late game Galen had a harder time with him than Vader did, indicating that Galen wasn't Vader's match until the very end where his mind is crystal clear and he's undergone all possible power growth he could. It also proves Vader could borderline speedblitz Galen's earlier opponents like Rahm Kota, Kazdan Paratus and Shaak Ti, who was more powerful in TFU than when she sat on the Jedi Council.

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Stompi10
Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Stompi10

Darth Vader raised his bloody blade, but the sound of another lightsaber igniting behind him forced the Dark Lord to turn around.

The apprentice couldn't keep his eyes open any longer. His fingers were numb; he couldn't feel anything at all. Weightless, he seemed to drift away from the cliff wall. His eyes were closed, but somehow he could still see. As though from a position high above, he watched his Master spin around to face Obi-Wan Kenobi.

The Dark Lord froze. In that moment of hesitation the long-dead Jedi Master attacked, his face a mask of determination. At the very last moment Vader parried, then parried again. He took a step backward, toward the cliff's edge, and then rallied. With two sweeping strokes, so fast they blurred in the cold air, he disarmed Kenobi and slashed him in half.

As the pieces fell to the ground, the hologram enfolding them dissolved. Sparking fitfully and spilling delicate components into the snow, PROXY twitched once, and then his photoreceptors went out.

Darth Vader stepped within reach and nudged the droid's body with his toe. It didn't react.


Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Vader has consistently shown that he is unable to put away RotS Council-tier (and often lower) opponents easily. Take his fights with An'ya Kuro,

What caps Kuro at or beneath that level? How does ANH Vader's performance against Kuro prevent his far more powerful RotJ incarnation from stomping Mundi?

ESB Luke,

Same question: why is Luke necessarily beneath Council level? I'm not saying he isn't, but we're talking about perhaps the most prodigious person in Star Wars behind Anakin Skywalker and far lesser adepts have underwent tremendous power increases in short periods of time. Moreover, Vader was noted to be toying with him:

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Vader_10

hell, even Sha Koon.

You mean the fight that took place in 19 BBY when Vader was still getting adjusted to his suit and had been weakened by an electrical net beforehand? Said electrical net broke his chest panel and thus his respiratory systems, forcing him to devote a portion willpower into staying alive on top of focusing on Koon. Why on earth are you bringing this up as evidence he can't somehow cream Mundi? Even then, you're still wrong:

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Ragdol10

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Ragdol11

There Vader is, lifting Sha Koon in a telekinetic choke hold mid-duel, rendering her completely helpless, and stabbing her in the chest. As for this disparity between his dueling performance and Force strength, again, he was still getting used to his suit, and even during The Force Unleashed II Vader was noted to be a better Force user than a duelist.

You'd have to argue that Vader underwent MASSIVE growth from ANH to RotJ, which is not substantiated by any source

I'd say becoming "far more formidable" counts for something, but that's just me.

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Vader_11

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Vader_12

(he grew, but there's nothing that indicates he went from "moderately above council-tier" to "effortlessly ragdolls the most powerful Council member not named Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, or Anakin").

Moderately above Council tier? Even his fight against Old Ben portrays him as more impressive as that. Yes, Kenobi was past his prime, but Vader was explicitly noted in the same sentence (along with another source) to be more power than he was on Mustafar, so Kenobi's degradation can't have been that severe. In the Force, at least, Vader would give Mustafar Kenobi major pause, and that's someone who would absolutely stomp Mundi into the ground without a second glance. That's still the case if we ignore the fact that George Lucas and many other sources noted Mustafar Vader to be more powerful than Jedi Anakin.

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Anh_va10

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 More_p10

Again, Vader obviously wins here, but let's not get carried away.

I'm curious why you think it's "obvious" Vader wins but to suggest that he stomps is getting "carried away." I'd like for you to make your own case for Vader and cite the evidence that has you arriving at this specific conclusion. You can ignore my above rebuttals if any of the information was new to you.


Last edited by Azronger on May 5th 2019, 2:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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on May 5th 2019, 2:21 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Sorry, I removed my post because I wanted to write more on it later after finals.

I think it's best if you just focus on our debate when it comes to Vader. Once you get that done you'll have more freedom and one obligation less.
UnquantifiableCharacter77
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on May 5th 2019, 2:29 pm
Az slayed.
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on May 5th 2019, 2:45 pm
Good job @azronger
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on May 5th 2019, 3:10 pm
@Azronger Didn't mean to post that 3 times lmao.
Just out of curiousity, how do u respond to the whole Starkiller was on the brink of death arguement when he faced Vader in TFU 2?
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on May 5th 2019, 4:10 pm
@SithArchaeologist

I just remembered this interesting tidbit. Treat it as an addendum to my above point about Vader growing significantly in between A New Hope and Return of the Jedi. He didn't just grow significantly; his powers increased to immensely just between 2 ABY and 4 ABY. In Splinter of the Mind's Eye that takes place two years before Return of the Jedi, Vader enters the proximity of the Kaiburr crystal, a Force-amplifying artifact. The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader states that it augments the user's powers "a thousandfold", but a more conservative estimate clocks the increase awarded by it as "tenfold." Either way, the Kaiburr crystal is one of the most potent amplifications in the mythos - a similar description, to my knowledge, has only been given to Naga Sadow's meditation sphere that enabled to him to conjure an illusory fleet nine times larger than the entire Sith Empire all over the galaxy from a single location.

Two years after the destruction of the Death Star, an Imperial governor notified Vader that persons matching the descriptions of Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia Organa had been captured on Circarpous V, a swamp planet known locally as Mimban. Vader was aware of the Mimban legend about the Kaiburr Crystal, a luminous crimson-colored gem that magnified the Force a thousandfold, and hoped to collect this relic along with the captive Rebels.

Star Wars: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 2019-05-05

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader also contains a retelling of the fight from Splinter of the Mind's Eye from Vader's perspective. Due to being in the Kaiburr crystal's vicinity, Vader's powers were augmented to the point he could now summon Force lightning, and his anger reached such heights he couldn't control it. The crystal doesn't affect beings telepathically; its sole feature is magnifying the Force. Therefore, the only conclusion is that Vader's powers were amplified to such proportions he couldn't even comprehend his own strength; his mind couldn't process it and he found himself saying things he wouldn't have normally said as his rage raced out of control. The only reason Luke was able to match him was because he was likewise boosted by the crystal, and the spirit of Ben Kenobi further amped him.

Turning his attention to the Princess, Vader said, "I expect no such difficulty in restraining myself where you are concerned, Leia Organa. In several ways, you are responsible for my setbacks much more than this simple boy."

Simple boy? Vader was surprised by the words that had come from his own mouth. Even though he knew there was more to Skywalker than met the eye, and had only intended on apprehending the Rebels, he was suddenly overcome by the desire to kill them. He realized he was losing his self-control.

The Princess picked up Luke's lightsaber and activated its blue blade. As she moved toward Vader, he abruptly let his arm fall, letting the beam of his own weapon hang limply at his side.

"Leia, don't!" Luke yelled. "It's a feint... he's daring you. Kill me, then yourself. . . it's hopeless now."

Gazing at the Princess with contempt, Vader said to her, "Go on, let him fight for you if you want. But I won't let you kill him." Thinking of how Luke had escaped his clutches before, he added, "I've been robbed too often."

The Princess fought bravely, but she was no match for Vader. She used the last of her strength to throw the lightsaber to Skywalker, just as he emerged from under the rabble. Facing the Sith Lord, Skywalker said, "Ben Kenobi is with me, Vader, and the Force is with me too."

The duel was furious, and carried Vader and Skywalker through the temple to a chamber where there was a dark circular opening in the floor, the mouth of a deep pit. As the battle wore on, Vader found himself breathing hard through his respirator. But then, thanks to his proximity to the Force-enhancing Kaiburr Crystal, he felt a sudden surge of the power of the dark side, allowing him to project lightning from his fingertips for the first time in his life. He hurled Force-energized lightning at Skywalker, but his young opponent deflected the blast.

[…]

He realized what had happened in the temple. The Kaiburr Crystal had increased his Force powers, but not to his advantage. It had amplified his hatred and anger, causing him to abandon his desire to capture Skywalker and find out more about his identity. Now he sensed that the Kaiburr Crystal was no longer in the temple, that it had left Mimban.


Star Wars: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader


Vader in Return of the Jedi is more powerful and skillful than ever and his overall proficiency in battle is at its apex. This includes the time he was amped by the Kaiburr crystal, so his power would be at a level where his past self two years ago couldn't even comprehend - at least a "tenfold" increase. One can just imagine how substantial his growth would be in the four years from A New Hope to Return of the Jedi. I'd certainly say it would be more than going "from 'moderately above council-tier' to 'effortlessly ragdolls the most powerful Council member not named Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, or Anakin'" as you put it.


Last edited by Azronger on May 6th 2019, 3:48 am; edited 3 times in total
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on May 5th 2019, 4:13 pm
DeadlyJedi wrote:@Azronger Didn't mean to post that 3 times lmao.
Just out of curiousity, how do u respond to the whole Starkiller was on the brink of death arguement when he faced Vader in TFU 2?

It's in my debate with Ant.
HeartoftheForce
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on May 5th 2019, 8:03 pm
@Azronger wrote:@SithArchaeologist

I just remembered this interesting tidbit. Treat it as an addendum to my above point about Vader growing significantly in between A New Hope and Return of the Jedi. He didn't just grow significantly; his powers increased to immensely just between 2 ABY and 4 ABY. In Splinter of the Mind's Eye that takes place two years before Return of the Jedi, Vader enters the proximity of the Kaiburr crystal, a Force-amplifying artifact. The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader states that it augments the user's powers "a thousandfold", but a more conservative estimate clocks the increase awarded by it as "tenfold."

It's noted as being a thousandfold in more than one source
Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Image0

I'm more inclined to go with that interpretation
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on May 5th 2019, 10:24 pm
Always nice to see a case for Vader that's grounded in realism. While I disagree with some of the stuff it's definitely a solid case overall and I agree that Vader takes this rather decisively.
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Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi

on May 5th 2019, 10:55 pm
@Azronger wrote:Vader in Return of the Jedi is more powerful and skillful than ever and his overall proficiency in battle is at its apex. This includes the time he was amped by the Kaiburr crystal, so his power would be at a level where his past self two years ago couldn't even comprehend - at least a "tenfold" increase.

Why would the Vader quotes apply to the time he's amplified a thousandfold by the Kaiburr Crystal but not apply to Anakin's Oneness on Mortis or that other Clone Wars novel, given you think the Vader quote applies pre-suit as well? Same question applies to Anakin in ROTS thinking he's stronger than ever before. 

Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 1668617588

It seems that either characters aren't factoring in temporary power booms, or the Ones aren't particularly strong.

Edit: Also, passive influence aside, note that the Kaiburr Crystal seems to empower Force users in random energy surges. Vader was fighting for a lenghty period of time before he suddenly felt a surge in power. I'm not convinced Luke likewise received a burst of power to deflect Vader's mega-super-omnipotent energy blast (which might not have killed Luke even if he didn't deflect it?). After all, Luke doesn't sense such surge, which you think he would if it's a ten or thousandfold increase in his power. That makes me think Vader's attack might not have been a mega-super-omnipotent energy blast after all anyway . . .
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on May 6th 2019, 12:40 am
The Vader low-balling on here makes my head spin
HeartoftheForce
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on May 6th 2019, 4:10 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@Azronger wrote:Vader in Return of the Jedi is more powerful and skillful than ever and his overall proficiency in battle is at its apex. This includes the time he was amped by the Kaiburr crystal, so his power would be at a level where his past self two years ago couldn't even comprehend - at least a "tenfold" increase.

Why would the Vader quotes apply to the time he's amplified a thousandfold by the Kaiburr Crystal but not apply to Anakin's Oneness on Mortis or that other Clone Wars novel, given you think the Vader quote applies pre-suit as well? Same question applies to Anakin in ROTS thinking he's stronger than ever before. 

Anakin likely considers Mortis nothing more than a dream.
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on May 6th 2019, 7:29 am
Greysentinel365 wrote:
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@Azronger wrote:Vader in Return of the Jedi is more powerful and skillful than ever and his overall proficiency in battle is at its apex. This includes the time he was amped by the Kaiburr crystal, so his power would be at a level where his past self two years ago couldn't even comprehend - at least a "tenfold" increase.

Why would the Vader quotes apply to the time he's amplified a thousandfold by the Kaiburr Crystal but not apply to Anakin's Oneness on Mortis or that other Clone Wars novel, given you think the Vader quote applies pre-suit as well? Same question applies to Anakin in ROTS thinking he's stronger than ever before. 

Anakin likely considers Mortis nothing more than a dream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOMkXG8VtPM

I don't think so, based on this link. ^ Anakin just thinks him seeing Qui-Gon on Mortis was a dream.
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on May 6th 2019, 2:31 pm
@Azronger

Just wanted to clear up an issue I had with your post.

After getting over his confusion, Vader blitzes PROXY in two moves while the droid was using his most dangerous training module.


Yes, it's an incredibly impressive and underrated showing though I'm not exactly sure proves that Vader can perform some of the below.

PROXY has proved a challenge for mid game Galen with inferior training modules, and even late game Galen had a harder time with him than Vader did, indicating that Galen wasn't Vader's match until the very end where his mind is crystal clear and he's undergone all possible power growth he could.


I'll go over both the mid-game and late-game showings separately.

For the mid-game showing I'm going to assume this is the passage you're referring to:

She hesitated a moment, then opened the screen that enabled her to spy on the activities within. In the deep gloom of the chamber, Starkiller knelt with his eyes closed and his back to the door, which her viewpoint covered. The faint shape of PROXY glowed all over for a second, morphing into a new shape. When the transformation was complete, he stood some centimeters taller and broader than before, with a beard and long hair, and wearing the standard robes of a Jedi Knight. The new expression he wore was one of determined solemnity.

Starkiller opened his eyes but didn't move until PROXY had activated a bright green lightsaber and raised it vertically in a balanced, two-handed pose on the right side of his body. Then Starkiller was up and defending himself so quickly that Juno had hardly seen him move. PROXY rained blows upon him with speed and athleticism belying his construction. Spinning, tumbling, and cartwheeling all across the room, he was constantly on the offensive, employing swings that were both fast and powerful. Starkiller had his hands full deflecting them all. In the flickering, light, she saw sweat standing out on his forehead.

The clash and crackle of lightsabers filled her earpiece. She turned the volume down so as not to disturb Kota's sleep. This wasn't the first time she had witnessed a duel between Starkiller and his training droid. They had fought like dervishes during the first days after fleeing the Empirical, the droid obviously helping him let off steam. But for those releases, she wondered if the pressure cooker of his mind would steadily build up stresses until he exploded.

She hadn't learned, however, to relax during them. Starkiller never lost - which was lucky, because PROXY spoke with disarming openness of his intention to kill his master should he ever find a chink in his armor. What life would be like after such a fatal mishap, she didn't like to think, so for now she tolerated the occasional practice sessions, even if she couldn't enjoy them.

PROXY didn't stay still for a second, attacking from the ground, the walls, the ceiling, even from midair. It was like watching a dance, but one in which the slightest slip could mean death. Starkiller danced with him long enough for her to worry, then he changed his own style to match that of the droid's - and suddenly she could see the difference between the human and the mechanical. Where PROXY had been fast, Starkiller was graceful as well. Where PROXY had simply slashed and stabbed, Starkiller applied flourishes to his offensive strikes. Where every move PROXY made involved his entire body, Starkiller could launch an attack with one finger, or block by shifting his foot a single centimeter.

The end came suddenly, with the green lightsaber stabbing deep into the belly of the unknown Jedi. Starkiller withdrew the blade and stepped backward. The other lightsaber deactivated and fell with a thunk to the metal floor. Starkiller's virtual opponent crumpled forward and had returned to PROXY'S usual form before he hit the ground.

"I've failed again," came the muffled voice of the droid. "I'm sorry, master."

"It's not your fault, PROXY." Starkiller extended a hand and pulled the droid to his feet. "Ataru doesn't work properly without the Force. You managed a credible impersonation of it, though, especially in such a confined place."

"Thank you, master. Perhaps I will succeed next time."

Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization


I have a few problems. For starters, this is the novel is the only source which depicts Galen struggling with PROXY. In both the game and comic for TFU as early as the start of game Galen is basically stomping Proxy.

In the comic PROXY lands a single strike but that's all he really achieves. Galen mostly beats him without effort rather quickly:

1 , 2 , 3 .

And in the game PROXY gets stomped in a few moves with no effort on Galen's part:

https://youtu.be/zWzqAGaEtz4

Now that leaves me 2-1 in sources regarding whether or not Galen should struggle with PROXY but even if you want to discount the game and comic entirely regarding Galen vs PROXY I'd argue mid-game Galen's performance against PROXY isn't very consistent narratively speaking.

For starters, we have the fact that Galen already defeated PROXY at the start of the novel though he did so with some difficulty:

Even as he mulled over this new development, a familiar snap-hiss sounded to his right and a glowing blue-white blade sprang into life in a dark corner of the hangar. A brown-robed figure ran forward, weapon raised.

Instantly in a fighting crouch, the apprentice brought his own blade up to block the blow, teeth bared in a delighted snarl.

He and his adversary held the pose for a bare second, lightsabers locked across their chests. The apprentice quickly sized up the being who had attacked him. Human male, fair-haired and bearded, with calm, serious eyes and a firm set to his jaw. Anyone within living memory of the Clone Wars - or possessing free access to the Jedi Archives - would have recognized him immediately.

Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, High General of the Galactic Republic and master of the Soresu form of lightsaber combat, slid his deadly blade down and to the right, ducking at the same time to avoid the inevitable countersweep. Sparks flew as the apprentice Force-leapt high into the air and landed with perfect agility on top of a stack of crates. He reached out with his cupped left hand and swept a metal tool kit across the hangar bay, toward his opponent's head. Kenobi ducked and leapt up after him, deflecting a flurry of blows that would have left an ordinary man in pieces, then responding with a sweep of his own that sent the apprentice dodging backward, jumping from one stack to another in temporary retreat.

So the duel proceeded for almost a minute, with Kenobi and the apprentice dancing like acrobatic Gados from stack to stack, lightsabers spinning and clashing, racks and tools turned into temporary weapons as they hurled themselves from one to the other. The racket was enormous, and the threat very real. Kenobi slashed a new rip in the sleeve of the apprentice's combat suit with a move that would have taken his arm off at the elbow had he not moved in time. Twice he felt rather than saw the Jedi's blade sweep over his head.

The apprentice wasn't afraid of dying. His only fear was of failing his Master, and that fear he put to good use. The dark side ruined through him, made him strong and resilient. He felt more powerful than he ever had before.

Vader was sending him to hunt one of his old foes - and how better to warm up for the mission than by killing the man who had once been among the most famous Jedi in the galaxy?

Alive with murderous intent, the apprentice rushed forward, his red blade swinging, to finish the job.

[...]

At the sound of an unfamiliar energy weapon activating nearby, Juno Eclipse looked up from her work and reached for the blaster pistol at her side. She had just about finished sealing up the hull of the Rogue Shadow, and her thoughts had already turned to testing the new systems she'd installed when this distraction had come along to ruin her concentration. Combat drills weren't unknown on large Imperial vessels, but she'd yet to see anyone on the secure deck - indeed, anyone anywhere on the ship - apart from Lord Vader. Her appointment was still so recent, and so soon after the catastrophe on Callos, that she felt compelled to treat any unexpected development with caution.

Two weapons were in play, humming and clashing, and the harsh, almost percussive sound was punctuated by noises of physical violence. Metal banged and crashed as though a dozen troopers were throwing armor at one another. There were many fragile components stored in the hangar, some of them actively dangerous if handled carelessly, but a cry of anger stalled on her lips. There was something about the sound of those weapons... something familiar that she couldn't quite place...

[...]

An obedient Imperial officer, Juno had done as she was told and gone to see her new command. The ship had impressed her, requiring only a small amount of tinkering to make it function at its full potential. But now this strange clamor, this rowdy duel had taken over the hangar and, by the sound of it, threatened to spill out of Lord Vader's secret spaces and into the wider ship.

Creeping around a cryo cylinder taller than she was, Juno finally caught sight of the combatants. Her blue eyes widened in surprise.

What struck her first were the weapons: glowing swords of a type she had seen only once before, on an old, forbidden holo her father had found in the depths of their new home's database. He had shown it to her before erasing it with a snarl. "Murderers," he had declared of the figures she'd glimpsed: brown-robed men and women of various species, fighting droids with shining swords of pure light. "Traitors, all of them."

"What did they do?" She had been younger then, not yet fully cognizant of the frustration and resentment her father kept bottled up inside him. It only fully manifested when she gave it reason, and it was only ever directed at her.

"What did they do?" He turned on her, tone harsh and disparaging. "The Jedi filth betrayed Palpatine - that's all they did. What rubbish do your teachers fill your head with if you don't even know that?"

The memory of his mockery still stung. Juno forced herself to put it aside while she assessed what was happening before her. Two men - one bearded and solemn, the other much the same age as her, stubble-haired and thin as a whip - were dueling with weapons identical to those of the hated Jedi. One blade was so bright and blue, it burned almost white. Its counterpart was red and just as deadly. When they clashed, sparks flew in all directions. The men leapt and tumbled with inhuman agility. When they gestured, metal walls buckled and engine parts flew like missiles.

She didn't dare make a sound. Every muscle was frozen as she crouched in the shadows, filled with a mixture of fear and awe. In all her years of service to the Empire, she had never seen anything like it. Heard rumors, yes - of Lord Vader's arcane powers and of the cylindrical hilt that hung at his side - but seen nothing. It had been easy to dismiss the rumors as scaremongering and propaganda disseminated to instill fear and encourage loyalty. She had never needed to be threatened into service, so she had happily ignored them.

Now she was wishing she had paid closer attention.

Things became stranger still when the younger of the combatants, with a look of wild satisfaction, rammed his crimson lightsaber through the chest of his opponent. Defeated, the older man dropped to his knees, a look of shock spreading across his face.

That expression was shared by Juno when the form of the older man began to spark and flicker like a hologram - which, she realized an instant later, was exactly what he was. Arms, legs, torso, and face sputtered and dissolved, revealing the bipedal form of a droid beneath. He stirred and fell forward with a clatter of metal on metal.

"Ah, master. Another excellent duel." The droid's words were muffled until the young man who had "killed" him rolled him over onto his back.

"You caught me by surprise, PROXY," the man said with an easy affection that belied his former ferocity. "I haven't fought that training program in years. I assumed you'd erased it."

The droid struggled to stand, but succeeded only in losing his balance and almost falling again. His owner caught him in time and helped him straighten.

"Easy, PROXY. You're malfunctioning."

"It's my fault, master," the droid said with an electronic sigh, looking down at the smoking hole in his chest. "I had hoped that using an older training module would catch you off guard and allow me to finally kill you. I'm sorry I failed you again."

A concerned smile flickered across the young man's face. "I'm sure you'll keep trying."

"Of course, master. It is my primary programming."

Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization


Now given Galen at the start of the game can already overpower PROXY it's difficult for me to understand how mid-game Galen despite being far more powerful can't stomp PROXY.

To quickly go over Galen's power growth we have start of novel Galen struggling with opponents like Kazdan Paratus and Rahm Kota yet later he manages to overpower Shaak Ti who is "far more formidable" (Source: Insider #140) than either Paratus or Kota. This is supported by Vader himself where he notes that Galen had fought an "old man and an outcast" (Kota and Paratus) before saying that on his next mission Galen will face "a true Jedi Master" (Ti). Overall it's clear Ti is definitely far more powerful than Kota or Paratus. Now given Galen defeated Ti on an incredibly potent LS nexus he should thus be far more powerful than his start of novel self who struggled with PROXY so I don't see why it makes sense that he should basically struggle just as much with PROXY later on (especially considering the fact that PROXY wasn't using his best training module).

Now seeing as I want to drive the point home I'll provide even more evidence to Galen's power growth. On Raxus Prime, Galen struggles to overpower the Junk Titan and power a heavily damaged Corvette which puts a defined cap on his Force Powers at that point. Now after he defeats Paratus Galen believes he could knock down Paratus's Junk Temple with a single Force Push (1km in height) which is hilariously above both of the previous showings mentioned which solidifies my initial point about Galen's power growth being humungous from fighting Paratus to fighting Ti. As for how Galen grew so massively in such a short period of time if necessary I can go over it though for now, I don't really feel the need to.

So yeah that's just a quick summary as to why I don't think the showing is really all that consistent. To further expand on this idea that the showing is inconsistent I'd like to point out that during TFU 2 Galen overpowered a PROXY droid without too much difficulty while utterly exhausted after the destruction of the Salvation (he struggled to lift a small ship which early novel Marek has far greater feats than). I have more I could say regarding the showings consistency but for now, I'll just leave it at this as to not make this post too long.

Now onto the late-game showing:

A brown-robed human figure stepped out of the shadow, with one gloved or artificial hand and thick, dark blond hair. His eyes were in shadow, but there was no mistaking his intent. A bright blue lightsaber flashed into life as the figure approached, his steps quickening, intent on attack.

"A new one, PROXY? Excellent."

The apprentice swept his lightsaber into his hand and blocked the first of a series of rapid-fire blows. The droid had been working on this module for some time, it seemed, judging by the skill he displayed. His combat style ranged from the aggressive Jedi style Shien to the more advanced form of Djem So with occasional flashes of rage that pushed the combat beyond offensive barrage to outright, fury-fueled Juyo. The apprentice danced with feet and blade, admiring the techniques and tricks of his newest opponent - whom he naturally recognized as the long-dead Clone Wars hero Anakin Skywalker - and prolonging the duel to see where it might lead.

But despite his intellectual interest in PROXY'S handiwork, his heart wasn't in it. He had fought real Jedi Knights now, and fallen Jedi Padawans. In his visions he had fought as his Master, Darth Vader, and even fought himself. Such duels were very real, whereas this felt, suddenly, empty, and no longer served even as a distraction. Were it not for PROXY'S feelings, he would end it quickly and conserve his energy for other purposes.

Even as he thought that, PROXY surprised him. Ducking under a particularly rash stroke, the droid rolled as expected but came up empty-handed. The apprentice looked for the lightsaber and saw it barely in time to avoid dismemberment. PROXY had used his repulsors to imitate a telekinetic push that sent the hilt of the lightsaber spinning across the room and back again - a move the apprentice had never seen him use before. The apprentice's block stopped the blade from slashing his throat, but in ricocheting it scored a gash down his arm. The light wound sent a neural shock through his system. He laughed, not just at the sudden rush of adrenaline and endorphins.

"Well done, PROXY," he said. "You almost had me there." The droid didn't break his disguise as he fell back under a flurry of retaliatory blows. Revitalized by the reminder that even play-fighting with PROXY could be deadly, the apprentice drove the droid into a corner and rammed the tip of his blade through PROXY'S metal chest.

The hologram sparked and flickered. PROXY'S familiar features appeared through those of the legendary Jedi Knight, and the apprentice reached out to steady him.

Source: The Force Unleashed Novelization


I honestly don't see how this performance is worse than Vader's. Galen's barely trying for the whole fight and then as soon as he tries he drives PROXY into a corner before finishing him. That stomping is just as bad and I don't see how it's really any worse than Vader's.

It also proves Vader could borderline speedblitz Galen's earlier opponents like Rahm Kota, Kazdan Paratus and Shaak Ti, who was more powerful in TFU than when she sat on the Jedi Council.

I beg to differ. Though perhaps you can clear up some of the issues for me.
xolthol
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on May 7th 2019, 3:09 am
@Azronger: really good case for Vader being above lots of council-tier jedi.
Azronger
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on May 7th 2019, 4:14 am
@ArkhamAsylum3

Your first point is contingent on the fallacy of false equivalency: in both the comic and game, Galen defeats PROXY by way of his Force abilities, not through his martial skill. In the comic PROXY even knocks him on his ass before Galen resorts to lightning, strengthening my case. Really not sure why you'd cite those. And didn't you hold the belief that because the novel tells the "true story" of Starkiller, everything besides it is non-canon? Did your viewpoint change?

Your second point is contingent on the fallacy of appealing to incredulity, and you attempt to justify it with entirely fabricated inconsistencies. Galen performs significantly better there than he did at the start; as soon as he switches styles and stops simply reacting without mustering an offensive of his own, he wins rather quickly. There isn't anything inconsistent here.

And your last point is contingent on simply poor reading comprehension. Galen used "a flurry of retaliatory blows" to drive PROXY into a corner, whereas Vader beat PROXY in two strikes, disarming him with the first and killing him with the second. Obvious difference.

Also, you can type this out but not the post for the tourney, which is due for tomorrow/the day after?
NotAA3
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Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi

on May 7th 2019, 11:50 am
@Azronger I'll respond after my tourney post is done. Also yes I can type this out because it's not half as long as a tourney post. It looks long because of the quote passages but there are only a few paragraphs of actual text.
NotAA3
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Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs. Ki-Adi-Mundi

on May 7th 2019, 12:23 pm
@Azronger

Actually, I'll just respond now lol. Shouldn't take that long.

Your first point is contingent on the fallacy of false equivalency: in both the comic and game, Galen defeats PROXY by way of his Force abilities, not through his martial skill. In the comic PROXY even knocks him on his ass before Galen resorts to lightning, strengthening my case. Really not sure why you'd cite those.

Fair enough I'll concede on this particular point though I disagree with the rest.

And didn't you hold the belief that because the novel tells the "true story" of Starkiller, everything besides it is non-canon? Did your viewpoint change?

Yes, my viewpoint changed.

Your second point is contingent on the fallacy of appealing to incredulity, and you attempt to justify it with entirely fabricated inconsistencies. Galen performs significantly better there than he did at the start; as soon as he switches styles and stops simply reacting without mustering an offensive of his own, he wins rather quickly. There isn't anything inconsistent here.

I mean given the colossal gap between Galen and his start of novel self and the fact that an exhausted Galen (who is far weaker than mid-novel Galen) has stomped a PROXY droid I really don't see how Galen should be pressed at all regardless of whether he was offensively responding or not. Plus if your premise is that Starkiller could stomp PROXY when he went on the offense and only got pressed defensively how are you going to draw a comparison between Vader and him? The text doesn't really make note of how many Lightsaber exchanges there are when Galen goes on the offensive so Galen could have overpowered PROXY just as easily as Vader and you have 0 proof Vader wouldn't be hard-pressed to when duelling PROXY if he used defence only. I'd say we have a bunk premise here do we not?

And your last point is contingent on simply poor reading comprehension.

Nah it isn't.

Galen used "a flurry of retaliatory blows" to drive PROXY into a corner, whereas Vader beat PROXY in two strikes, disarming him with the first and killing him with the second.

A flurry of blows doesn't prove anything lmao. Galen can have swung twice and that can be counted as a "a flurry of retaliatory blows". So Galen can have pushed PROXY into the corner with two strikes and the killed him with the third. That's hardly a difference and certainly isn't enough to display parity or even superiority to Galen.

Obvious difference.

Cause counting the number of blows and using a 3-2 comparison is clearly a good scaling method am I right?

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on May 7th 2019, 12:27 pm
A flurry of strikes is clearly intended to mean a lot more than 2 however I don't think it matters regardless. Counting the number of lightsaber clashes proves little, it was a stomp in both cases.
NotAA3
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on May 7th 2019, 12:32 pm
@DC77

Nothing about a "flurry of blows" implies it was more than two lmao.
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