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HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 20th 2020, 10:13 pm
IG wrote:Exodia obliterates
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 20th 2020, 10:51 pm
BoD wrote:
1.Darth Vader has more lightsaber accolades than the whole of SWTOR combined.

And he lacks the feats to back those up whereas the HoT alone has lightsaber feats putting him > Vader.

2.Based on the fact Kun's combative teachings made Kyp think that out-performing Kam Solusar in everything was 'feeble' and this is the Kam that stomped Vill Goir who was amongst the foremost Dark Side Elite who scale well beyond Imperial Protectors and then even moreso the Royal Guard who are already 'almost' a match for Darth Vader in combative prowess.

Again, Vader isn't > the Outlander so this is utterly irrelevant. Also, please actually substantiate that Royal Guard claim, because their feats as opposed to that accolade are lackluster. Need I remind you there's also a quote putting Vader as "equally formidable" to Sidious, if we're using a single quote to support our arguments?


3.Given Freedon Nadd has more Jedi kills than any Sith ever up to KotOR and King Adas spends three centuries slaughtering his way to maintaining being the Sith'Ari

[size=33]And the HoT alone slaughtered his way through an entire heavily armed temple on an incredibly potent dark side nexus through forces that included Imperial Honour Guards, who are stated to be able to go toe to toe with Jedi or Sith and that even the Dark Council fear them. [/size]


then I'd wager being a magnitude above them in skill is higher than the Outlander who's basis for any impressiveness at all is scaling over the Arcann who earlier kicked his ass,
[size=33]
Arcann never "kicked his ass" in sabers, lol. [/size]



who is impressive because he beats post-SoR HoT who's best feat is besting Malgus in lightsaber combat who's best feat is defeating Ven Zallow who scales over Kao Cen Darach.

No, his best feat is simultaneously fighting the HoT, the Barsen'Thor, the Voidhound, and Havoc Squad Commander/EW, DN, Cipher Nine and the Grand Champion plus their companions - which can include a 300+ year-old Sith who's killed at least 10,000 Sith and over 100 Jedi in personal combat - and matching them for a considerable amount of time. 

Kao's got basically nothing more than generic battlemaster wank.
[size=33]
Why are you using Kao to lowball Malgus when Malgus was a mere apprentice when he killed one of the most elite swordmasters in the Jedi Order? He wasn't even close to being as skilled or powerful as he was in FE. [/size]

Whereas Freedon Nadd has starting out beating Metta Tremayne, a foremost lightsaber expert before a century of murdering more Jedi than anyone up to KotOR II.
[size=33]
Act 2 HoT was matching Scourge in sabers, whose feats speak for themselves. [/size]

4.Onslaught Outlander scaling over SoR Nox is irrelevant when that is where Lord Kallig basically scales up to. Who is dwarfed by a magnitude via Tulak Hord who is well beneath Exar.

[size=33]Double standards, much? Your logic is Exar Kun >>> Tulak Hord >>> Lord Kallig (who you claim is somehow SoR Nox level). [/size][size=33]Meanwhile, [/size][size=33]Onslaught [/size][size=33]Outlander > unchained Vaylin ~ EoKOTET Outlander > ch. 8 Outlander >>> chained Vaylin ~ KOTET Arcann >> KOTFE Arcann >>> SoR Nox. And yet the Outlander scaling ridiculously far above Lord Kallig is "irrelevant". [/size]


[size=33]The Outlander has Kun beat in skill and most likely power as well. Even convoluted scaling chains aren't changing that. [/size]

1.Care to list those lightsaber feats? I mean, I'm already far more aware than almost anyone is about the Hero's feats. That's the result of being around since the SWTOR website launched in 2008. But in terms of pure lightsaber feats the only comparable feat Hero can claim for is Malgus and if you're saying the Hero didn't even do that then he's got scaling from masters who have no greater lightsaber skill accolades than Anoon Bondara or Metta Tremayne.

2.Vader isn't the Outlander, no. But he's a far better basis for lightsaber skill than the Outlander can claim to. I don't need feats for comparison when nothing contradicts the idea that they're near Vader. Your basis for dismissal is null and void.

3.You realise Tulak Hord had easily over a thousand Jedi kills as a lightsaber duelist and is confirmed to be the most skilled ancient Sith Lord (ancient relative to the KotOR era). Take into account, if you wish, the fact that Tulak Hord would thus scale over Ajunta Pall due to this and yet Pall is more skilled than Karness Muur was. Who himself contends with Darth Krayt in a lightsaber duel, pushing him back, even.

Dark Temple is absolutely nothing, it's one prolonged battle compared to Adas' three centuries of killing his Sith rivals and Nadd's century of killing more Jedi than any lightsaber duelist in history, only after killing Metta Tremayne.

4.Wait, so you're saying Arcann isn't even that much better than the HoT? Have fun with making my case even easier.

5.And you're saying the HoT doesn't even have Malgus scaling. Oh boy.

6.Ven Zallow scales over Kao Cen Darach. Though now that I think about it Malgus only defeated Ven through a cheapshot/trick in the novel, they were strict equals otherwise.

7.Scourge has three centuries of killing Jedi and Sith. (If you actually do the math it's not even that many) As a way of growing from his novel incarnation. Who was fodder to Nyriss in lightsaber combat and needed to feed off of the dispair of Yarri to defeat her in a duel. I mean I get the intent behind ACT II Scourge but honestly, he really doesn't match up by comparison in strict lightsaber skill to killing more Jedi than Tulak Hord in a third of the time Scourge did after already besting a foremost lightsaber duelist.

8.Double standards? Is your reading comprehension just atrocious? The spirit of Aloysius Kallig literally just waves off Darth Andru who is about to kill BoAct2!Nox, this spirit Kallig is a thousand years of being drained of his power weaker than Kallig as a spirit after dying who is naturally far less powerful than his living prime. (Something supported by the fact Kallig's mask imbued with a fraction of Kallig's living power helps protect Nox from Zash). Yet this living prime of Kallig is already weaker than Hord and Hord devours the spirits of a 1,000 Jedi in a more complete fashion than Nox Force-walking-binding the spirits of Sith. Whose power increase due to binding them was literally going from fodder to Thanaton, to stomping him with them.

Lord Kallig by himself should be up with SoR Nox, Hord is an entire magnitude of power beyond that. Easily putting him beyond Arcann per your logic that Arcann didn't kick the HoT's ass. That's just Hord, Marka Ragnos is more powerful than Hord. Nevermind Exar Kun himself.

There's nothing convoluted about being right.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf
Level One
Level One

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 20th 2020, 11:22 pm
Are some of you taking the "Royal Guard being almost a match for Vader?" Seriously?....Why now?
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 20th 2020, 11:26 pm
Zenwolf wrote:Are some of you taking the "Royal Guard being almost a match for Vader?" Seriously?....Why now?
giving the rep of this site against vader its not actually a surprise imao
Zenwolf
Zenwolf
Level One
Level One

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 20th 2020, 11:29 pm
The lord of hunger wrote:
Zenwolf wrote:Are some of you taking the "Royal Guard being almost a match for Vader?" Seriously?....Why now?
giving the rep of this site against vader its not actually a surprise imao

Another thing, the hell does this have to do with the thread here? Vader isn't even here.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 20th 2020, 11:30 pm
Zenwolf wrote:
The lord of hunger wrote:
Zenwolf wrote:Are some of you taking the "Royal Guard being almost a match for Vader?" Seriously?....Why now?
giving the rep of this site against vader its not actually a surprise imao

Another thing, the hell does this have to do with the thread here? Vader isn't even here.
well AP mentioned it in his case so there is that....... 

agreed completly irrelevant in this discussion and also no idea why the character was brought up
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 22nd 2020, 11:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

1.Care to list those lightsaber feats? I mean, I'm already far more aware than almost anyone is about the Hero's feats.

I forgot that the all-knowing AP was the singular expert on the HoT. 





That's the result of being around since the SWTOR website launched in 2008.

That's not even how it works. Even if it were, I'm not interested in a d*ck-measuring contest to salve your ego. 



But in terms of pure lightsaber feats the only comparable feat Hero can claim for is Malgus

You forgot Lord Scourge. 





As the Sith Emperor's personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi--and ten times as many Sith. Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title "the Emperor's Wrath."




And Darth Angral (who scales above Orgus Din).


A militaristic and maniacal Sith warlord famous for his brutal tactics, Darth Angral led the Imperial fleet that sacked Coruscant during the last war. Angral personally executed the Supreme Chancellor and was preparing to force an unconditional surrender when the Emperor unexpectedly signed a peace treaty with the Republic.

-


A grizzled Jedi Master who's fought more battles with the Sith than any other living member of the order, Master Orgus Din was an eyewitness to the Sacking of Coruscant. 




And Lord Praven. 




A Sith pureblood, Lord Praven has trained in the ways of the Force since the earliest years of his youth. Fiercely loyal to the Emperor and an ardent believer in the philosophical teachings of the dark side, Praven is surprisingly calm and collected in his speech and actions.

He follows a strict code of personal honor, and unlike many other Sith, he eschews random acts of cruelty and sadism. Despite this, he is sworn to destroy the Jedi and considers them his mortal enemies.

During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma--one of the Jedi's most famous duelists--in an epic battle. But he spared Usma's young Padawan, telling her to seek him out once she had finished her training so they could face each other as equals. When she tracked him down years later, he honored his promise, sending her to the same fate as her Master.



And the Imperial Honour Guards he carved through on a potent dark side nexus:




The ultimate non-Force sensitive fighters in the Empire serve the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Although most citizens know them as protectors of the Sith Academy on Korriban and the sanctum of the Citadel on Dromund Kaas, the guardsmen's mandate takes them wherever the Emperor requires. Even the Dark Council has neither control nor oversight of the guard's activities.

Clad in blood-red robes and armor, Imperial Guardsmen serve for life. Chosen for duty and initiated through deadly tests and traditions, those too old for active duty become instructors for the next generation until their skills deteriorate to the point where they are inevitably slain by a new recruit during training.

Fanatic in loyalty and unmatched in martial skill, even a lone Imperial Guard is a formidable opponent capable of standing toe-to-toe with a Jedi... or a Sith, should the occasion arise.


-

Revan was impressed by Scourge’s performance, not to mention relieved. On his last visit to Dromund Kaas, he and Malak had learned everything they could about the Imperial Guard. Though not attuned to the Force in the classical sense, the elite soldiers had a connection with the Emperor, allowing them to draw strength from the dark side. They were formidable opponents, even for a Jedi. He’d feared they’d have to fight through dozens of the Guard before reaching the throne room, giving the Emperor ample time to prepare his counterattack.

-

Now Scourge was forced to defend himself on two fronts as he backed into the throne room. In his peripheral vision he saw that Meetra was in a similar situation, retreating while battling a pair of enemies.



And Warren Sedoru:




Warren Sedoru was already one of the most acclaimed Jedi Knights of the order when the Sith Empire attacked the Republic at Korriban. He was one of the first Jedi to lead a counterattack against Imperial forces and scored several early victories against them. The price of these triumphs was high, however.




And Guardman Lassicar:




He has personally executed six Jedi and over two dozen Sith Lords who made the fatal mistake of crossing the Emperor. A team of SIS agents sent to assassinate him returned to Coruscant in a series of small containers. Lassicar's survival instincts and combat skills should not be underestimated.



And scales above Jaric Kaedan, a warrior capable of defeating and capturing the Dread Masters with only a strike force to support him:




Slowly, the Jedi pieced together the truth of these events. They joined forces with an elite Republic Special Forces unit, who stole the security codes for the Dread Masters' heavily-guarded dreadnaught. Hijacking an Imperial Moff's personal yacht, a Republic strike team boarded the dreadnaught and, aided by Jedi Master Jaric Kaedan, captured the Dread Masters. The dreadnaught was rigged for self-destruct to cover the strike team's escape.



The HoT has defeated or fought opponents easily rivalling Vader in applicable technical skill, and that's long before his prime in Onslaught.




and if you're saying the Hero didn't even do that then he's got scaling from masters who have no greater lightsaber skill accolades than Anoon Bondara or Metta Tremayne.

When either of those can capture the Dread Masters, kill 10,000 Sith in personal combat and frighten Sith like Darth Marr, or stand up to fully fledged and immensely powerful Jedi like Revan Reborn or Meetra Surik, let me know.   



2.Vader isn't the Outlander, no. But he's a far better basis for lightsaber skill than the Outlander can claim to. I don't need feats for comparison when nothing contradicts the idea that they're near Vader. Your basis for dismissal is null and void.

And yet you've offered literally nothing to support the idea that Vader is above any of the revered Sith the HoT has defeated in terms of applicable technical skill. 



3.You realise Tulak Hord had easily over a thousand Jedi kills as a lightsaber duelist and is confirmed to be the most skilled ancient Sith Lord (ancient relative to the KotOR era). Take into account, if you wish, the fact that Tulak Hord would thus scale over Ajunta Pall due to this and yet Pall is more skilled than Karness Muur was. Who himself contends with Darth Krayt in a lightsaber duel, pushing him back, even.

Basis for Pall being > Muur in skill? Likewise, proof that it wasn't Muur's power edge, bond with Morne (which just as it allowed her to use his power, so too would it allow him to use hers) that was providing him with the advantage over Krayt? 



4.Wait, so you're saying Arcann isn't even that much better than the HoT? Have fun with making my case even easier.

Ironic that you criticised my reading comprehension. 



Arcann never "kicked his ass" in sabers, lol.

Force is a completely different story. Arcann was winning, but he was far from doing it easily.



5.And you're saying the HoT doesn't even have Malgus scaling. Oh boy.

*Sigh* I'm saying Malgus was distinctively powerful enough and skilled enough to fight them all, which corroborates his performance against an infinitely more powerful Onslaught Outlander. Malgus frequently employs Force attacks and manoeuvres in his fighting technique, so he's quite clearly as powerful as them, if not more so. 



"Malgus's lightsaber form was flawless, but he let his anger and desperation cloud his fighting. He faltered, and I followed through."

So Malgus is solidly > the HoT in Force power by act 3 and at least on his level in combat skill so that the HoT can't pierce his defences until Malgus begins doubting his cause. This is not evidence SoR or KOTFE HoT doesn't benefit from the scaling, as both are noticeably > act 3. 



6.Ven Zallow scales over Kao Cen Darach. Though now that I think about it Malgus only defeated Ven through a cheapshot/trick in the novel, they were strict equals otherwise.

Outwitting someone in combat is not a cheap shot, lol. Otherwise, we can invalidate 75% of fights where a character wins, since half the time skill comes down to figuring out how to exploit openings, which is what Malgus did. The only respect they were outright equal in was power, and that was solidly pre-boost Malgus who was ~ Lord Adraas. 



7.Scourge has three centuries of killing Jedi and Sith. (If you actually do the math it's not even that many) As a way of growing from his novel incarnation. Who was fodder to Nyriss in lightsaber combat and needed to feed off of the dispair of Yarri to defeat her in a duel.

Blatantly false:


SCOURGE WAS AN EXPERT SWORDSMAN; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will. Captain Yarri’s skill with her electrostaff was impressive, but ultimately she was no match for a Sith Lord. Knowing this, she had wisely adopted a defensive style to hold off the first few flurries of Scourge’s attack, her focus on stalling him long enough for one of her companions to join the fray before switching to a more aggressive form. Now Scourge was forced to defend himself on two fronts as he backed into the throne room. In his peripheral vision he saw that Meetra was in a similar situation, retreating while battling a pair of enemies.

Scourge pressed his attack, calling on the dark side to transform his uncertainty and fear into white-hot rage. He felt the power coursing through him, the spark of fury deep inside him igniting into a fire-storm of death and destruction. Left-handed, Scourge unleashed a pair of savage chops at Yarri’s partner, using raw brute strength to overpower his physically weaker opponent. The guard parried the blows, but the first knocked him off balance and the second sent him stumbling backward. While the guard struggled to recover, Scourge focused his assault on the captain. Yarri sensed the shift in her opponent too late to switch back to a more defensive form, and the Sith Lord was quick to exploit the tactical flaw. A four-move sequence overwhelmed Yarri, causing her to leave her right flank unprotected.


Scourge seized the opportunity, his blade biting deep into her hip. Yarri screamed, dropped her blade, and fell to the ground. The other guard leapt to her defense, recklessly throwing himself between his fallen captain and Scourge. The only reward for his effort was a quick death, delivered by a diagonal lightsaber slash across his chest.


He stomped both when he wasn't distracted by visions. 



 I mean I get the intent behind ACT II Scourge but honestly, he really doesn't match up by comparison in strict lightsaber skill to killing more Jedi than Tulak Hord in a third of the time Scourge did after already besting a foremost lightsaber duelist.

Except act 2 Scourge actually has showings against impressive foes, like matching and allegedly being capable of beating act 2 HoT in a saber fight. Hord does not. 



8.Double standards? Is your reading comprehension just atrocious?


L'ironie. 





The spirit of Aloysius Kallig literally just waves off Darth Andru who is about to kill BoAct2!Nox, this spirit Kallig is a thousand years of being drained of his power weaker than Kallig as a spirit after dying who is naturally far less powerful than his living prime.



Kallig was also feeding and drawing upon an incredibly potent dark side nexus. Andru was also using an esoteric power that DN had no defence against: 


KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 4566496-darth%20andru%20force%20choking%20nox%20and%20forcing%20khem%20val%20to%20faint



https://youtu.be/HzCBf8RZ4pI?t=287

Nox even tried using lightning against him and having no defence. So, at what point is Aloysius being > BoAct 2 Nox (who was still challenged by a dying Darth Zash, I might add) impressive enough to merit anything comparable to Act 3 HoT's scaling? 





(Something supported by the fact Kallig's mask imbued with a fraction of Kallig's living power helps protect Nox from Zash). Yet this living prime of Kallig is already weaker than Hord and Hord devours the spirits of a 1,000 Jedi in a more complete fashion than Nox Force-walking-binding the spirits of Sith. Whose power increase due to binding them was literally going from fodder to Thanaton, to stomping him with them.


Tulak Hord viewed Aloysius as a threat after consuming those spirits:


KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Scree111



And yet Hord post-Chabosh still viewed him as so much of a threat that he sought him dead through ambush, rather than direct combat. 




Lord Kallig by himself should be up with SoR Nox,

Which you still haven't substantiated. Prepared BoAct 2 Nox then fairly easily consumed Andru when prepared (putting him solidly above him), and that's long before he grew much more powerful. Kallig's growth isn't enough to put him at SoR Nox, and that's not even to mention that Act 3 Nox after getting those ghosts was still definitively < Act 3 EW, who then grew even more. So no, being > Lord Kallig (even if he were > SoR Nox) does not magically equate to Kun being > the Outlander, who likewise is immensely beyond SoR Nox. 



Hord is an entire magnitude of power beyond that.



Yet to be proven. 


Easily putting him beyond Arcann per your logic that Arcann didn't kick the HoT's ass.

Not what I said. 




That's just Hord, Marka Ragnos is more powerful than Hord. Nevermind Exar Kun himself. There's nothing convoluted about being right.


🇪🇭
Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 23rd 2020, 3:27 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
BoD wrote:

And the Imperial Honour Guards he carved through on a potent dark side nexus

Using the term "potent" to describe DK's nexus is a huge understatement.

In 10 ABY, Kyle Katarn considered DK as the most potent power source he has ever encountered:
Mysteries of the Sith wrote:I found a greater source of power that I had ever known.

The same Kyle Katarn who was in the Valley of the Jedi. The same Valley that was as cataloged as "extreme dark side site", above the likes of Korriban or the Cave on Dagobah: 
Jedi Academy Training Manual wrote:Not every dark side site is equal, and each is rated as a minor site, major site, or extreme site. Minor sites include the ancient tomb of a Sith Lord or the lair of a particulary powerful Sith creature. Major sites include the Valley of the Sith Lords on Korriban or the Cave on Dagobah. Extreme sites are very rare and reserved for the most horrible of places, such as the demon moon of Dxun or battlefields where thousands of innocents were slaughtered or the blood of untold Sith and Jedi mingled, such as Ruusan.

Quick reminder: the Cave on Dagobah was a nexus potent enough to counterbalanced Force signature of Yoda:
The Essential Atlas wrote:For over two decades the Jedi Master lived in a simple mud hut, shielded from the Emperor's attention by a dark side cave - the residual energy left by a Dark Jedi from nearby Bpfassh - that counterbalanced Yoda's light-side singanture.

What's more, after tapping into a single shaft of energy from the Valley, Jerec achieves the state of Oneness with the Force:
Dark Forces: Jedi Knight (novela) wrote:Now that the Valley was under his control, Jerec was in no particular hurry. He needed time to prepare, but more than that, time in which to savor that which destiny had placed before him, much as a gourmet might linger over a rare and carefully prepared dessert. There was leakage, though - leakage that could double or even triple his ability - and whet his appetite for more.

The Jedi Master directed a thought outward, steered a circle around the cauldron of churning energy, and located a place where a steady stream of pitch-black energy had broken through the protective shell and strobed into space. Jerec chose a single shaft of negative energy, drew on its power, and felt himself expand. Bigger and bigger until his mind was everywhere, until he was one with the dark inner fabric of the Force itself, until he stood on the very brink of what he perceived as being all-powerful.

Not the state of enlightenment that so many prattled on about, but a state in which power could be accessed, shaped, and applied - all without the years of tedious meditation, study, and apprenticeship that proponents of the light side considered so necessary.

Even better was the next step, the step beyond Jedi Mastery, into which Jerec now passed. And it was there, in a state approaching all-knowingness, that he swept the ethers for signs of life.

Thousands appeared, each instantly identifiable, each distinct from all the rest. He felt the lieutenant, only meters away, frightened and eager to leave; his bodyguards, their minds blank with boredom; Sariss, seething with plans; Boc, relishing someone else's discomfort; Yun, confused and unsure; Maw, looking to express his rage; animals, following the dictates of their genetic programming; and there, closer than he would have thought, the intruders.

If DK was more potent than VotJ as of 10 ABY, then I shudder to think how potent it was at the hight of the Sith Empire, with Vitiate and co around. The fact that HoT was even able to set a foot on DK, let alone performing his end of Act 3 feat, is beyond ridiculous.
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 23rd 2020, 11:01 pm
I'll be responding to this and addressing it when I'm not tied up in the Top 15 Tourney.
Geistalt
Geistalt

KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

March 23rd 2020, 11:26 pm
I think Luke describes FotJ Dromund Kaas as being like mental sewage he had to struggle to successfully fight in.
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KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun - Page 3 Empty Re: KotET Outlander vs Exar Kun

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