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The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 23rd 2019, 1:29 pm
Spoiler:
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 23rd 2019, 1:37 pm
NotAA3 wrote:
Spoiler:
Facts
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 23rd 2019, 1:54 pm
@LadyKulvax 

The question of whether Nyriss was more powerful than Meetra Surik while on DK(I am not debating a neutral ground fight) isn't really debatable. We see Meetra being dominated in sabers-to the extent that she would've been killed within the first few seconds of the fight had Scourge not intervened. Domination of this kind could only have been accomplished if Nyriss had considerably superior force augmentation. Since there is absolutely zero information even implying Nyriss was disproportionately skilled in augmentation compared to her other powers, there is no reason to assume so. So we can conclude due to their duel that Nyriss is at least considerably more powerful in the force. Considering the ambiguity of the line that talks about Meetra's force barrier and the fact that it is unknown whether Nyriss fired a full powered blast, I think their duel is a much clearer approximation of their powers relative to each other. Though it should be noted that according to the audio book, the time span between Nyriss knocking the exile off her feet and Revan redirecting Nyriss's final attack was 20 seconds. Since Revan helps Meetra up after, we can infer that she was on the ground the entire time. This means that Meetra had been incapacitated by a single burst of lightning for over 20 seconds. Instinctive barrier or not, I don't think Meetra has been shown to bear any sense of parity with Nyriss while on DK. But like I said, I think the duel is much better at approximating the power difference between them since there's far less ambiguity in the text.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 23rd 2019, 3:27 pm
@NotAA3; Avellone shits on Meetra and Nihilus as well. And he created them. The point here is moot
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 23rd 2019, 3:28 pm
Honestly, the best feat for Meetra on Nathema is surviving there for a bit (can't remember exactly how long, a few hours?). While impressive, he pretty much treats her like fodder despite her logically being comparable to novel Revan.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 23rd 2019, 3:47 pm
BreakofDawn wrote:Honestly, the best feat for Meetra on Nathema is surviving there for a bit (can't remember exactly how long, a few hours?). While impressive, he pretty much treats her like fodder despite her logically being comparable to novel Revan.
Why is she "logically comparable" to Revan Reborn?
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

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September 23rd 2019, 5:38 pm
KingofBlades wrote:
The Ellimist wrote:The Nyriss scaling, while incredibly potent, seems to often be used with the assumption that, say, AotC Obi Wan couldn't dominate three Jedi Council Members of the KotORII era. While I get the intuition on that, it's also pretty counterintuitive to imagine Darth Nyriss absolutely destroying someone who beat someone who dominated three Jedi Council members of the KotORII era
Why would the prsopect of Nyriss being considerably above someone who could dominate three KotOR 2 era jedi masters simultaneously be counter intuitive? There isn't a legitimate reason why she can't be considering the fight shows this being the case.

Why is it counterintuitive for AotC Kenobi then?
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 23rd 2019, 7:00 pm
KingofBlades wrote:@LadyKulvax 

The question of whether Nyriss was more powerful than Meetra Surik while on DK(I am not debating a neutral ground fight) isn't really debatable. We see Meetra being dominated in sabers-to the extent that she would've been killed within the first few seconds of the fight had Scourge not intervened. Domination of this kind could only have been accomplished if Nyriss had considerably superior force augmentation. Since there is absolutely zero information even implying Nyriss was disproportionately skilled in augmentation compared to her other powers, there is no reason to assume so. So we can conclude due to their duel that Nyriss is at least considerably more powerful in the force. Considering the ambiguity of the line that talks about Meetra's force barrier and the fact that it is unknown whether Nyriss fired a full powered blast, I think their duel is a much clearer approximation of their powers relative to each other. Though it should be noted that according to the audio book, the time span between Nyriss knocking the exile off her feet and Revan redirecting Nyriss's final attack was 20 seconds. Since Revan helps Meetra up after, we can infer that she was on the ground the entire time. This means that Meetra had been incapacitated by a single burst of lightning for over 20 seconds. Instinctive barrier or not, I don't think Meetra has been shown to bear any sense of parity with Nyriss while on DK. But like I said, I think the duel is much better at approximating the power difference between them since there's far less ambiguity in the text.

I like how your argument is based on:

1.Ignoring the reason why Surik was losing in augmentative combat in the first place.

2.Mixes two versions of the same source despite the fact there are numerous differences.

Surik lost the duel because Nyriss gained the momentum by forcing the enemy to dodge out of the way. Whilst they were busy dodging, she Force leaped right between them and didn't give either of them a chance to recover. She has to brute strength force Meetra down to her knee to break her defenses.

Given that Meetra is in indisputably the worst state she's been in since recovering from being non-Force sensitive, your entire premise in using this as a Revan wank chain is faulty at best and downright misleading at worst.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 23rd 2019, 8:26 pm
"She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of
lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly
electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.
Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance,
she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime.
She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth
in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the
defensive.
Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even
think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced
him off balance and he staggered backward.
Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through
Meetra’s defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to
hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.
In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her
blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the
Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest."

You forget Nyriss was simultaneously attacking both Scourge and Meetra at the very beginning of the fight. While its noted Meetra and Scourge gave Nyriss the initial advantage by allowing Nyriss to strike first, Nyriss chooses to jump in between her two opponents. Which leaves her at an inherent disadvantage. So according to you despite having Nyriss surrounded with Nyriss's focus divided between two opponents, Meetra is unable to regain her footing by the time Scourge is removed from the duel. Seems very unlikely. 

Your argument regarding Meetra being far more hindered than she ever was doesn't hold up. The argument boils down to this:

    1. Meetra had suffered enormous mental trauma on Nathema, leaving her hindered for the rest of the novel

    2. Dromund Kaas is >Malachor V as a planetary nexus

    3. Vitiate's personal nexus is present concurrently with the planetary nexus

    These three factors compound together leaving her far more hindered than she was on Malachor V.

However,

1. The novel states that Meetra would eventually lose her sanity, not that she already has:
        
        "But Meetra knew she couldn’t hold out against it much longer.
        As much as she tried to ignore what she felt—or, more precisely, didn’t feel—all
        around her, she knew it was only a matter of time until the horrors of Nathema
        stripped away her sanity."

This means the mental damage she receives on Nathema is dependent on the duration of her stay. There is absolutely no evidence that the brief period of time she had spent on Nathema had dealt long term mental trauma that hindered her to any meaningful degree throughout the rest of the novel.

2. Once again, no evidence that DK>Malachor V as a planetary nexus. The inverse is also true. So let's move on from this point

3. While Vitiate's nexus is present, I severely doubt its potency at range. You gave an example earlier of Scourge feeding on it, but it wasn't described as anything worth writing home to. Scourge notes that feeding on it allowed him to persevere to through his more difficult training sessions, but the way its written makes it seem as though it merely gave Scourge an edge. Certainly a far less gleaming description than many of the other nexuses known to the mythos.

So your 1st and 3rd points are rendered insignificant in how hindered Meetra is. Your 2nd point has no evidence supporting it. Though say I gave you this point. Meetra still could've been  combatatively weaker on Malachor because not only is the nexus present, she was also experiencing mental/emotional trauma due to being able to feel the anguish of the dead. Then there's the oppressive gravity as well. So the factors Meetra faced on Malachor arguably compound to a greater degree than the ones she experienced on DK. Even if they don't she is at least comparable.


I'd also like to point out that the Revan present at the Nyriss fight was also hindered. It is known that he was under the effect of force suppressing drugs that reduced his connection to the force to the degree that he could barely utilize it. Now Scourge did give him medicine to counteract the drugs effect just prior to the Nyriss fight, but notes that it will take multiple minutes for the medicine to "help". However I doubt the Nyriss fight lasts longer than 30 seconds to a minute. So the Revan that redirects Nyriss's lightning has obviously not recovered completely. Meaning his connection to the force is also hindered. However Revan is not the subject of this debate, so I'm not gonna go any farther down that alley.


Last edited by KingofBlades on September 23rd 2019, 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 23rd 2019, 8:49 pm
The Ellimist wrote:
KingofBlades wrote:
The Ellimist wrote:The Nyriss scaling, while incredibly potent, seems to often be used with the assumption that, say, AotC Obi Wan couldn't dominate three Jedi Council Members of the KotORII era. While I get the intuition on that, it's also pretty counterintuitive to imagine Darth Nyriss absolutely destroying someone who beat someone who dominated three Jedi Council members of the KotORII era
Why would the prsopect of Nyriss being considerably above someone who could dominate three KotOR 2 era jedi masters simultaneously be counter intuitive? There isn't a legitimate reason why she can't be considering the fight shows this being the case.

Why is it counterintuitive for AotC Kenobi then?
Because AotC Kenobi has nothing to demonstrably show he his at that level. Nyriss however does.
AncientPower
AncientPower
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 24th 2019, 2:11 am
KingofBlades wrote:"She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of
lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly
electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.
Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance,
she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime.
She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth
in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the
defensive.
Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even
think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced
him off balance and he staggered backward.
Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through
Meetra’s defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to
hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.
In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her
blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the
Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest."

You forget Nyriss was simultaneously attacking both Scourge and Meetra at the very beginning of the fight. While its noted Meetra and Scourge gave Nyriss the initial advantage by allowing Nyriss to strike first, Nyriss chooses to jump in between her two opponents. Which leaves her at an inherent disadvantage. So according to you despite having Nyriss surrounded with Nyriss's focus divided between two opponents, Meetra is unable to regain her footing by the time Scourge is removed from the duel. Seems very unlikely. 

Your argument regarding Meetra being far more hindered than she ever was doesn't hold up. The argument boils down to this:

    1. Meetra had suffered enormous mental trauma on Nathema, leaving her hindered for the rest of the novel

    2. Dromund Kaas is >Malachor V as a planetary nexus

    3. Vitiate's personal nexus is present concurrently with the planetary nexus

    These three factors compound together leaving her far more hindered than she was on Malachor V.

However,

1. The novel states that Meetra would eventually lose her sanity, not that she already has:
        
        "But Meetra knew she couldn’t hold out against it much longer.
        As much as she tried to ignore what she felt—or, more precisely, didn’t feel—all
        around her, she knew it was only a matter of time until the horrors of Nathema
        stripped away her sanity."

This means the mental damage she receives on Nathema is dependent on the duration of her stay. There is absolutely no evidence that the brief period of time she had spent on Nathema had dealt long term mental trauma that hindered her to any meaningful degree throughout the rest of the novel.

2. Once again, no evidence that DK>Malachor V as a planetary nexus. The inverse is also true. So let's move on from this point

3. While Vitiate's nexus is present, I severely doubt its potency at range. You gave an example earlier of Scourge feeding on it, but it wasn't described as anything worth writing home to. Scourge notes that feeding on it allowed him to persevere to through his more difficult training sessions, but the way its written makes it seem as though it merely gave Scourge an edge. Certainly a far less gleaming description than many of the other nexuses known to the mythos.

So your 1st and 3rd points are rendered insignificant in how hindered Meetra is. Your 2nd point has no evidence supporting it. Though say I gave you this point. Meetra still could've been  combatatively weaker on Malachor because not only is the nexus present, she was also experiencing mental/emotional trauma due to being able to feel the anguish of the dead. Then there's the oppressive gravity as well. So the factors Meetra faced on Malachor arguably compound to a greater degree than the ones she experienced on DK. Even if they don't she is at least comparable.


I'd also like to point out that the Revan present at the Nyriss fight was also hindered. It is known that he was under the effect of force suppressing drugs that reduced his connection to the force to the degree that he could barely utilize it. Now Scourge did give him medicine to counteract the drugs effect just prior to the Nyriss fight, but notes that it will take multiple minutes for the medicine to "help". However I doubt the Nyriss fight lasts longer than 30 seconds to a minute. So the Revan that redirects Nyriss's lightning has obviously not recovered completely. Meaning his connection to the force is also hindered. However Revan is not the subject of this debate, so I'm not gonna go any farther down that alley.

I have no idea how you read that battle as if it doesn't state that she 'immediately' put her recovering opponents on the defensive. Meetra is then specifically stated to have held her ground against Nyriss' assault and only went to her knee due to eventually losing out to her strength.

My points regarding her status in the novel are perfectly coherent and you'vd only gone and made my argument for me.

1.Literally no one argued Meetra was driven literally insane by Nathema's void. But thank you for accidentally proving the point, the damage on her psyche was so strong that it was close to actually stripping her sanity away. This means that heavy psychological damage was indeed inflicted upon her, just not to the extent of total psychological breakdown.

Furthermore, Drew himself wrote the chain of trauma into the novel purposefully. Nathema >> Malachor V > Mass Shadow Generator. He also specifically tied this trauma to her ability to use the Force, to such a degree that this was the main component in her gaining the power to defeat Traya and the Sith. The very next thing Meetra does, is go 96 hours without sustenance or sleep, and instead relies entirely on her Force reserves to sustain herself as she focuses mentally on studying Nathema's full history, including the ritual, to find out where Dromund Kaas was. So not only is she focusing on the very source of her psychological damage but she's making it worse. Any of the rest she gained between then and Dromund Kaas would've been nightmare-filled given basic psychology.

The psychological damage of the few seconds of exposure she had to the MSG detonation not only almost killed her but left decades worth of 'pain' reducing her to a 'shell' where any and all who were exposed to her mind was stunned that she could even carry on living. Yet this damage was lesser than that of her return to Malachor V. Which itself was dwarfed by exposure to Nathema's void.

There's absolutely no logical way this can be handwaved.

2.A less potent version of Dromund Kaas was enough to act as 'sewage' to the mind of Luke Skywalker, and slowed his reflexes. Nevermind completely corrupting Kyle Katarn, severing Mara Jade's connection to the Force and more. Dromund Kaas as of the TOR era is conversely at its height of potency and thus the severity of its effects on light side Force users would be tremendously stronger. Which is what Meetra Surik is dealing with immediately after the several days mentioned and Nathema before that.

3.We can scale the effects of the Vitiate nexus from literally every other nexus in the mythos. In fact, Yavin IV dwarfed Oricon, which itself dwarfed Dromund Kaas. Yavin IV is directly implied in SOR: Revan to be so strong at this point due to the presence of Vitiate's body and spirit. This dormant spirit of Vitiate is obviously nowhere near as powerful as even novel Vitiate would be given that his spirit is literally on the brink of death and needs a massacre on Yavin IV to feed off of so he can become active again.

You haven't proven a single point of mine wrong here, these are accumulatively far worse than what she faced on Malachor V.
Shioz
Shioz

Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 24th 2019, 4:41 am
Kenobi stomps.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

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September 24th 2019, 3:29 pm
@LadyKulvax

I have no idea how you read that battle as if it doesn't state that she 'immediately' put her recovering opponents on the defensive. Meetra is then specifically stated to have held her ground against Nyriss' assault and only went to her knee due to eventually losing out to her strength.

You are seriously overplaying the advantage Nyriss had in its relevance in the battle. It is noted that Nyriss gained the "early advantage" by attacking Meetra and Scourge while they were busy dodging her lightning, which forced them on the defensive. However this doesn't tell us that this advantage extended past the initial moments of the battle. A surprise assault only has its advantages in the initial stages of a fight. If the defending party can hold off their initial surprise attack then the advantage disappears. Which is exactly what happens in this fight. Nyriss gains the initial advantage by launching a surprise attack while they were off-balance. However since Nyriss proved unable to gain any decisive blows on Meetra in this initial stage, the advantage she had disappears. This is also neglecting to mention that Nyriss chose a tactically disadvantageous position by jumping in between Meetra and Scourge. So not only do Meetra and Scourge have the tactical advantage by having Nyriss surrounded, any advantage Nyriss did have initially would have disappeared by the time the duel turned into a 1v1. 

Taking a few words out of the context of the whole sentence, let alone the rest of the fight is misleading. While the text does say she held her ground, it also explicitly says Meetra was "clearly overmatched". The use of the word clearly means it was obvious Nyriss was beating down on Meetra. Not a word one would use to suggest any sort of parity, Meetra did get forced onto one knee due to Nyriss's superior force augmentation as you said but this only helps my case. The fact that Meetra was forced on her knees because she couldn't hold up to Nyriss's augmentation shows a large difference between the level of their respective augmentation. Such a large difference could only be explained by Nyriss having a considerable force advantage over Meetra. 

Furthermore, Drew himself wrote the chain of trauma into the novel purposefully. Nathema >> Malachor V > Mass Shadow Generator. He also specifically tied this trauma to her ability to use the Force, to such a degree that this was the main component in her gaining the power to defeat Traya and the Sith. The very next thing Meetra does, is go 96 hours without sustenance or sleep, and instead relies entirely on her Force reserves to sustain herself as she focuses mentally on studying Nathema's full history, including the ritual, to find out where Dromund Kaas was. So not only is she focusing on the very source of her psychological damage but she's making it worse. Any of the rest she gained between then and Dromund Kaas would've been nightmare-filled given basic psychology.

The psychological damage of the few seconds of exposure she had to the MSG detonation not only almost killed her but left decades worth of 'pain' reducing her to a 'shell' where any and all who were exposed to her mind was stunned that she could even carry on living. Yet this damage was lesser than that of her return to Malachor V. Which itself was dwarfed by exposure to Nathema's void.

However, as I'm sure you would agree, Meetra's mental fortitude has grown considerably since the MSG detonation. Hence why the MSG detonation "left decades worth of 'pain' reducing her to a 'shell'" after only a few seconds of exposure, but she was able to fight through an army of sith culminating in defeating both Sion and Traya in a prolonged stay on Malachor later on in her life, despite the experience she felt on her final visit to Malachor being worse than the MSG detontation. You would also likely agree that Meetra experienced further growth mentally as a result of perservering through her experience on Malachor. Since she has experienced such large growth in the mental fortitude department, you cannot conclude her experience on Nathema left her hindered after she left the planet, just on the virtue of her experience on Nathema being worse than her experience on Malachor V when the trip to Malachor itself(her final visit) left no long term hindrance to her. So you have no reliable measuring stick to support your conclusion.

2.A less potent version of Dromund Kaas was enough to act as 'sewage' to the mind of Luke Skywalker, and slowed his reflexes. Nevermind completely corrupting Kyle Katarn, severing Mara Jade's connection to the Force and more. Dromund Kaas as of the TOR era is conversely at its height of potency and thus the severity of its effects on light side Force users would be tremendously stronger. Which is what Meetra Surik is dealing with immediately after the several days mentioned and Nathema before that.

Still not proof that DK's planetary nexus is > Malachor V's. For the purpose of keeping this conversation productive, I'm willing to call it a wash.

.We can scale the effects of the Vitiate nexus from literally every other nexus in the mythos. In fact, Yavin IV dwarfed Oricon, which itself dwarfed Dromund Kaas. Yavin IV is directly implied in SOR: Revan to be so strong at this point due to the presence of Vitiate's body and spirit. This dormant spirit of Vitiate is obviously nowhere near as powerful as even novel Vitiate would be given that his spirit is literally on the brink of death and needs a massacre on Yavin IV to feed off of so he can become active again.
Yes if a new presence like Vitiate's body and spirit were added to a pre exisitng nexus, of course the nexus would gain strength. However this doesn't tell us to what degree it grew. More importantly however is the fact that this example cannot be used to form any form of accurate conclusion regarding the potency of Vitiate's nexus as of the time of the Revan novel. It definitely isn't nearly as accurate a measuring stick as the earlier example you gave where Scourge fuels on the nexus relatively shortly before the novel. In that example it wasn't described as anything more than providing Scourge with a little extra edge, so he could get through his more difficult training exercises.
AncientPower
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September 24th 2019, 7:29 pm
The moment she puts them on the defense is when she removes Lord Scourge faster than he could even think about countering. So it almost instantaneously turned into a 1-on-1 combat. Meetra was specifically holding her ground but was overmatched in physical strength. Given she's demonstratably physically stronger than Scourge is, then she's obviously physically stronger than Meetra is. When you add Force augmentation into the mix, Meetra has three stated reasons to be hindered. One of which is specifically stated to have slowed the reflexes and mental abilities of a >> Novel!Vitiate light side Force user whilst on a vastly less powerful incarnation of the same planet Meetra is on. Whereas Nyriss is both amped and bloodlusted.

Given Luke Skywalker is stated to be an equal of Darth Vader in their duel, both in terms of power and skill. Then we have a prime example of an equally powerful Force user, physically overwhelming their opponent.

1.Except for the fact that her overcoming the trauma of the battle of Malachor V came with accepting the responsibility for her actions there. It was called Force enlightenment. Meetra has to tank the trauma on Malachor V's surface and then fight through the Trayus academy. But she overcame this by facing it, hence Traya stating she silenced the echoes beating from Malachor V's heart.

There is absolutely no reason however, to assume the same happens with Nathema. As you yourself proved, it nearly completely drove her insane and was trying to pull her apart subatomically to feed the vacuum of Force energy there. Meetra very clearly describes it as far worse than revisiting Malachor V, by an entire magnitude. It was literally a warp in reality and her mind couldn't handle it at all. At no point was Meetra threatened with insanity whilst facing the prior events.

2 & 3. My point from the start was that the combination of Dromund Kaas and the Emperor was greater than Malachor V. Dromund Kaas is by itself extremely powerful, and demonstratably massively hinders Jedi who visit it. Including the G.O.A.T Luke Skywalker.

The difference in power between Yavin IV and Oricon is described as 'another level' and is explained by the enormous gap in power between Vitiate's spirit and the 'insignificant' Dread Masters. There's a direct corrolation. The Emperor's spiritual and 'nebulous' presence on Yavin IV elevates it to another level above Oricon, which is stated to be 'incalculably' strong with the dark side e.g; far more powerful than Dromund Kaas without the Emperor.

Novel Vitiate is obviously not so far removed from SWTOR Vitiate that SWTOR Vitiate's brink-of-death spirit which is literally inert is comparable to Novel Vitiate.
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