Re: Darth Nyriss vs RotS Kenobi

September 21st 2019, 7:55 pm

Yeah the Kreia scaling is pretty potent. If Maul, Dooku or Vader one shotted three above average jedi masters in the force it'd be wanked like crazy.

September 21st 2019, 11:15 pm

Malachor V isn't more powerful than Dromund Kaas given Dromund Kaas is host to the most potent dark side nexus in the entire Star Wars mythos(Vitiate himself). Kaas itself was made so powerful due to Vitiate expending 'great energy'. So it's actually more like Vitiate and Dromund Kaas hindering her.

September 21st 2019, 11:20 pm

LadyKulvax wrote:Malachor V isn't more powerful than Dromund Kaas given Dromund Kaas is host to the most potent dark side nexus in the entire Star Wars mythos(Vitiate himself). Kaas itself was made so powerful due to Vitiate expending 'great energy'. So it's actually more like Vitiate and Dromund Kaas hindering her.

Meetra states that Malachor's nexus was the worst experience in her life pre Nathema, while she merely notes the presence of the dark side on DK without any indication that it was overwhelming like Malachor's was.

September 21st 2019, 11:23 pm

Malachor V's nexus wasn't what made it the most traumatising experience of her life pre-Nathema. It was feeling the anguish of the dead combined with the crushing gravity that made it that way. Nathema was worse because it was literally a warp in reality.

September 21st 2019, 11:30 pm

If Vitiate himself was acting as a nexus(especially one as potent as you claim), then why isn't it mentioned at all? We should have a plethora of first hand accounts of DS users feeling empowered when near Vitiate. But I've never seen any. Maybe you have? I mean I know Vitiate's passive energy eventually turned DK into a nexus, but I don't see any evidence of Vitiate himself acting as one.

It's also worth noting that when Nyriss rhetorically questions Scourge as to why he had so much trouble dealing with the droids on Hallion compared to how he dispatched the mercenaries of DK, he doesn't even consider the lack of the nexus as a possible reason.

September 21st 2019, 11:42 pm

Both Revan and Scourge state they could feel his power as if it was barely contained energy visibly pervading from him. The Dark Citadel is also stated to be pervading in the manner at the beginning of Scourge's story. Vitiate himself is stated to be able to cut off the connection to the light side of the Force of even the most powerful Jedi Masters passively. Tol Braga was corrupted by Vitiate's raw power and voluntarily joined the Sith.

Besides, I'm not making a claim, Vitiate is canonically stated to be so.

September 21st 2019, 11:46 pm

Vitiate is canonically stated to be so

quote? Though if true, wouldn't it be logical to assume that Vitiate can manipulate his energy so that he isn't accidentally amping those around him? Especially those who are possible threats.

September 21st 2019, 11:49 pm

Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Medriaas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see.

September 21st 2019, 11:51 pm

KingofBlades wrote:

Though if true, wouldn't it be logical to assume that Vitiate can manipulate his energy so that he isn't accidentally amping those around him? Especially those who are possible threats.

September 21st 2019, 11:55 pm

Why would he not be doing so to Meetra? This is nigh baseless speculation at this point. There's no reason she wouldn't be when Scourge states that he could feed off of it for hours from the outskirts of Kaas City(where Nyriss' compound just so happens to be).

September 22nd 2019, 12:13 am

LadyKulvax wrote:Why would he not be doing so to Meetra? This is nigh baseless speculation at this point. There's no reason she wouldn't be when Scourge states that he could feed off of it for hours from the outskirts of Kaas City(where Nyriss' compound just so happens to be).

Wasn't even referring to Meetra there. I was thinking about Nyriss actually. The Nyriss fight happened after he was convinced Nyriss was a traitor, so her being amped by Vitiate's nexus is unlikely. Now back to Meetra. Vitiate didn't even realize Meetra was there until she threw the lightsaber. So Vitiate wouldn't be actively attempting to hinder Meetra at least until that point. So what I'm thinking is that Vitiate wouldn't even allow his power to affect anyone unless he wanted it to. It just doesn't make any logical sense to think he's actively allowing his power to affect people the same way a nexus does. People being accidentally affected by it would be dangerous considering he knows the sith around him may be plotting his demise. If Meetra really was being hindered to such a ridiculous degree, don't you think DK's nexus would have gotten more than just a passing reference?

September 22nd 2019, 12:22 am

Except that your entire basis is that he's controlling the energies pouring out of him when we know he doesn't. His powers literally radiate from him in every appearance he makes. Nor am I sure I agree on your reason for said basis. Whenever dark siders felt the energy passively coming from him, such as a Dark Council, they were 'reduced to trembling psychophants' when close up.

Point being, Malachor V > Dromund Kaas in dark side energy is baseless and the opposite is true when actually analysing the evidence. There's no reason Meetra wouldn't be hindered there and considering Drew Karpyshyn purposefully leaves the effects of a nexus up to the fans then I don't doubt the severity here.

A far less potent incarnation of Dromund Kaas was seriously hindering the most powerful Jedi in the entire mythos, Luke Skywalker. Dromund Kaas at its height of potency with Vitiate on top would be magnitudes more detrimental to a far less powerful Jedi in Meetra Surik.

September 22nd 2019, 12:48 am

LadyKulvax wrote:Except that your entire basis is that he's controlling the energies pouring out of him when we know he doesn't. His powers literally radiate from him in every appearance he makes. Nor am I sure I agree on your reason for said basis. Whenever dark siders felt the energy passively coming from him, such as a Dark Council, they were 'reduced to trembling psychophants' when close up.

Point being, Malachor V > Dromund Kaas in dark side energy is baseless and the opposite is true when actually analysing the evidence. There's no reason Meetra wouldn't be hindered there and considering Drew Karpyshyn purposefully leaves the effects of a nexus up to the fans then I don't doubt the severity here.

A far less potent incarnation of Dromund Kaas was seriously hindering the most powerful Jedi in the entire mythos, Luke Skywalker. Dromund Kaas at its height of potency with Vitiate on top would be magnitudes more detrimental to a far less powerful Jedi in Meetra Surik.

*My opinion on this matter is actively in flux as a result of this conversation right now so this is why my opinions or ideas may seem different to ones I just espoused.*

Vitiate's passive energy may be detrimental to all force users indiscriminately. Vitiate could be passively radiating energy like you say and it could also be detrimental to DS users as well as LS users. Which seems to be supported by the example you just gave regarding dark siders being near Vitiate. The earlier example you gave of Scourge feeding off of a nexus would be a case of Scourge using the planetary nexus. Though since DS users aren't being hindered when not near Vitiate's position, this leads me to believe Vitiate passive nexus's range isn't all that great. Which leads me to doubt it played a part in events like the Nyriss fight. And just as the evidence that Malachor V>DK is nonexistant, so is the argument that DK(Planetary nexus only)>Malachor V.

September 22nd 2019, 12:50 am

Wut? Scourge was drawing from the energy pervading from within the Dark Citadel.

September 22nd 2019, 1:06 am

LadyKulvax wrote:Wut? Scourge was drawing from the energy pervading from within the Dark Citadel.

Quote? I can't find it in my copy of the novel. Assuming its in the novel.

September 22nd 2019, 1:17 am

September 22nd 2019, 1:22 am

Hmm this seems to run counter to your example of Dark council members being near Vitiate. Which leads me to believe Scourge may have been feeding on the energy imbued into the Dark Citadel instead of Vitiate's personal energy. Unless you have a better way of rationalizing the examples?

September 22nd 2019, 1:25 am

Except this was Vitiate actually meeting them and exerting his influence directly. Dude, just concede at this point.

September 22nd 2019, 1:27 am

LadyKulvax wrote:Except this was Vitiate actually meeting them and exerting his influence directly. Dude, just concede at this point.

I stopped arguing any specific stance a while ago. I've just been trying to flesh out how Vitiate's personal power relates to the planetary nexus.

September 22nd 2019, 1:33 am

And you previously said that the Dark council members turning into "mindless sycophants" when near Vitiate was due to his passive energy not his direct influence.

September 22nd 2019, 1:37 am

He wasn't activelly suppressing them or anything, but the powers he had terrified them. So I'm not even sure it's entirely relevant. They were cowed, essentially.

September 22nd 2019, 1:56 am

Ok now that my understanding of the nexuses at play during the novel is much more solid I can go back to making an argument. But I'll do that tomorrow.

September 22nd 2019, 2:27 am

LadyKulvax wrote:A far less potent incarnation of Dromund Kaas was seriously hindering the most powerful Jedi in the entire mythos, Luke Skywalker

If you are referring to the fight in ascension against the sith sabers, please not that Luke and Jaina still defeated them without difficulty.

September 22nd 2019, 6:14 am

The Nyriss scaling, while incredibly potent, seems to often be used with the assumption that, say, AotC Obi Wan couldn't dominate three Jedi Council Members of the KotORII era. While I get the intuition on that, it's also pretty counterintuitive to imagine Darth Nyriss absolutely destroying someone who beat someone who dominated three Jedi Council members of the KotORII era - the scaling chains within TOR are themselves unintuitive, so I don't think we can just say that there's a cap on the gap between the PT tier-7's and the KotORII Jedi Council based on that. After all, compare the top dogs of the PT Jedi with the top dogs of the KotORII Jedi...yeah.

So authorial intent doesn't support AotC Obi Wan waving his hand and three Jedi Masters dying, but it doesn't support even its own unintentional scaling chains either.

September 23rd 2019, 1:24 pm

The Ellimist wrote:The Nyriss scaling, while incredibly potent, seems to often be used with the assumption that, say, AotC Obi Wan couldn't dominate three Jedi Council Members of the KotORII era. While I get the intuition on that, it's also pretty counterintuitive to imagine Darth Nyriss absolutely destroying someone who beat someone who dominated three Jedi Council members of the KotORII era

Why would the prsopect of Nyriss being considerably above someone who could dominate three KotOR 2 era jedi masters simultaneously be counter intuitive? There isn't a legitimate reason why she can't be considering the fight shows this being the case.