Darth Vader versus Revan

NotAA3 wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:@NotAA3 Did you really have to reply with an entire essay, lol? It's gonna take me about 10 years to reply with this since this laptop is going out the window, lmao.

Sorry, it's a bad habit. I tend to write a lot when I get into my flow, I honestly really need to be more concise.

Lol, no worries. They're interesting arguments to read so I don't really mind. Fair warning: I'm heading up north to sort out housing stuff so won't be able to reply until probably Wednesday, when I (hopefully) have a working laptop.

KoB post was solid but some of it was pretty serious reaching/mental gymnastics. HP's was good but stealing Ziggy's gif is a shameful crime.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:KoB post was solid but some of it was pretty serious reaching/mental gymnastics. HP's was good but stealing Ziggy's gif is a shameful crime.

Which parts exactly?

The Kun/Galen TK comparison.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:The Kun/Galen TK comparison.

Well I was using a bit of Physics concepts to justify that which was in an earlier post. Even if you wanna argue the ISD feat is decently superior, if you agree with the premise that Exar Kun was much more powerful at his peak than at that point, then its not outlandish to think the feat isn't beyond a peak Kun. Which was my main point.

KingofBlades wrote:

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:The Kun/Galen TK comparison.

Well I was using a bit of Physics concepts to justify that which was in earlier previous post. Even if you wanna argue the ISD feat decently superior, if you agree with the premise that Exar Kun was much more powerful at his peak than that point, then its not outlandish to think the feat isn't beyond a peak Kun. Which was my main point.

Physics? In Star Wars? 

BreakofDawn wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:The Kun/Galen TK comparison.

Well I was using a bit of Physics concepts to justify that which was in earlier previous post. Even if you wanna argue the ISD feat decently superior, if you agree with the premise that Exar Kun was much more powerful at his peak than that point, then its not outlandish to think the feat isn't beyond a peak Kun. Which was my main point.

Physics? In Star Wars? 

I don't see how else we're going to quantify one feat of TK over another.

^
I mean, physics are wonky in a Star Wars, but even hyperspace technically has an explanation. They aren’t going at MFTL speeds, they’re ripping a hole into what is essentially a pocket dimension, and using it to travel. Lightsabers and blasters are weird though.

But, I suppose I could just quote Clarke and say “sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” and be done with it.

NotAA3 wrote:@KingofBlades

Lol, we both posted WoT's at the exact same time. I'm sure BoD and Elm are going to have great fun responding.

If we cannot beat them with logic, we will outlast them by posting WoT's until they get too lazy to respond.

@NotAA3 Gonna play devils advocate here.

No... that's kind of the point. None of these points are referenced again, yet we don't assume that all of these factors just vanished because the writer didn't see it fit to mention them again.

When we have the writer explicitly emphasise Galen starting to recover, and then his exhaustion not being mentioned after that, with him choosing to attack Vader rather than continue a recovery, yes we can assume he's fully recovered. This isn't a case of a writer mentioning something once and not reiterating it, it's literally the writer removing the factor from the equation.

This same standard applies to SK, we don't just assume he replenished his reserves from close to 0 to 100 when the lore doesn't indicate that is possible just because there's an excerpt which mentions him "regaining his strength" with no mention that he fully recovered.

Where exactly does the lore contradict the notion that recovering with a rest period of 2-3 mins is impossible, besides the Luke example which I'll get to in a min? Do you have anything else?

his whole argument from the Vader camp is just appealing to authorial intent without acknowledging that the writer doesn't gain anything from consistently mentioning Starkiller's exhaustion which goes back to my core point which you absolutely failed to address: "Why should SK's fatigue be brought up again? What does the writer actually prove from repeatedly mentioning it?"

I'll indulge you with an answer. SK's exhaustion provides additional stakes to the story. Think about it, SK has already beaten Vader in TFU, so the reader is going to be confident he can do it again. By reiterating the exhaustion and dwelling on it the writer is proving a variable not present in the TFU fight, and giving us a reason to consider the fact that SK might just lose the fight.

Per which argument? Anyway, Luke Skywalker explicitly states he needs food, rest and meditation to recover reserves (SK didn't have all of that shit) and that it takes days to recover. The fact that Starkiller regained all of his reserves from simply meditating for a few minutes at most is utterly laughable, and the only argument for this position is the fact that his exhaustion isn't mentioned during his fight with Vader... which is ridiculous. Remember the old saying: absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

That's operating under the assumption that Luke and SK were equally exhausted. If I run a marathon I'm going to need to rest for a period of time. If I run 100m I'm going to be good to go almost immediately. Just to be clear, I'm not saying SK's exhaustion was something he could immediately shrug off, I'm just saying that exhaustion has different levels, you'll need more than one example to substantiate your theory that force reserves cannot be regained quickly. Moreover, we have Jaina and Dooku regaining their reserves almost instantaneously, proving that it is possible to regain lost reserves in a short space of time.

Except SK isn't like a normal human he has the Force to sustain himself against all 3 things mentioned... By on the verge of death, I meant his Force Reserves were close to running out meaning he'd die due to fact that he had nothing to keep himself going with.

To quickly address this, I think the line was clearly exaggeration, meant to convey the idea that SK is completely worn out. I don't see the line literally meaning SK is on the verge of death, if he was  intended to be the writer would have put more emphasis on it rather than glossing over it in a single line. SK's 13 day period was something that was emphasised, yet when SK is in an even worse state and about to face the main antagonist the writer just goes "Nah, I'll throw it in one line and leave it at that". That doesn't seem logical tbh.

and it's also noted Vader hadn't improved much from TFU 1 to TFU 2 and in the former Starkiller ragdolled Vader.

Citation needed.

@BreakOfDawn Hope you don't mind me stealing your debate, I'll let you take over if yah want.

@DC77 (Reborn) I'll get back to this tomorrow. As you know I've got Chemistry revision to do for my test tomorrow and Physics homework (also for tomorrow.).

And we both know you'll procrastinate and do neither of those things.

I will.

Nah, you've basically said everything I was trying to say but couldn't and my laptop isn't getting fixed anytime soon so I'm happy for you to reply instead. That said, that "Vader didn't improve much" claim is bull.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@NotAA3 Gonna play devils advocate here.

Aye, Tis Satans handiwork afoot hither.

DC77 (Rebirth) wrote:When we have the writer explicitly emphasise Galen starting to recover, and then his exhaustion not being mentioned after that, with him choosing to attack Vader rather than continue a recovery, yes we can assume he's fully recovered. This isn't a case of a writer mentioning something once and not reiterating it, it's literally the writer removing the factor from the equation.

Yes, we should'st expect the writer to hammer us 'i the brow with the fact that he's exhausted. As everyone knows 'i novels, words do not hast meaning 'lest they're explicitly repeated ad nauseam.  If it isn't peppered 'i there moe times than 'twere, then it belike doesn't count. I't hie back and re-read that first part because 'tis not like 'tis clept and printed. I want the book to answer me every time when i hie "come again?"

He chose to attack because he had no choice and he recovered enough to try so.  There's not enough information to say he recovered all of his power  'i  that short frame of time. The writer chose to convey this information to us for a reason. Thy argument hinges towards the writer just including it for no reason presently preceding a fight.  He was so exhausted yet now he's not because the writer chose concision instead.

Abra Kadabra, I didn't mention it again so watch it vanish.
*Fucking poof*

DC66 (Reborn) wrote:Where exactly does the lore contradict the notion that recovering with a rest period of 2-3 mins is impossible, besides the Luke example which I'll get to in a min? Do you have anything else?

Where 'i the lore exactly doth "regaining thy strength" mean thou went back to full power 'i seconds? Where 'i the lore exactly doth "regaining thy strength" mean thou got to full power when the most next sentence stressed that he's ne'r been moe exhausted  'i  his life? Didst he regain enough power to get to a point where he was moe exhausted than he's aye been  'i his life? or was he just trying to regain enough strength so that he wasn't actively gasping anymore?

Prithee say to me about the infinite stamina of force users.

DP77 (Reborn) wrote:I'll indulge you with an answer. SK's exhaustion provides additional stakes to the story. Think about it, SK has already beaten Vader in TFU, so the reader is going to be confident he can do it again. By reiterating the exhaustion and dwelling on it the writer is proving a variable not present in the TFU fight, and giving us a reason to consider the fact that SK might just lose the fight.

So SK hath already beaten Vader, so the reader is confident he shall doth it again. This means there are no stakes to the story if the writer wasted multiple paragraphs on exhaustion ere the fight for no reason like thou art stating. Which means Vader is a no-stakes fight against Starkiller whom's moe powerful. Which implies a stomp.

Dost thou believeth Vader grew enough to be exact equals with Starkiller? if the gap 'twixt tfu 1 clarification Galen and Vader was vast, then Vader is making large leaps 'i power 'i short amounts of time. The implication there is that he had been making like jumps 'i power for 4 years when he still becomes moe powerful than he's aye been. Would we can infer he bridged the gap 'twixt himself and starkiller via exhaustion having no bearings, then we infer he jumped 'i power by large amounts for 4 years to fight ROTJ Luke. Which means ROTJ Luke and ROTJ Vader had been vastly moe powerful than Starkiller by leaps and bounds. Which means 'tis possible that Vader utterly eclipses Ben would we continue on this train of thought. Is that something thou sought to proveth when thou were playing around with Luciferian scribes?

Darthcaedus77 (Birth of Twins) wrote:That's operating under the assumption that Luke and SK were equally exhausted. If I run a marathon I'm going to need to rest for a period of time. If I run 100m I'm going to be good to go almost immediately. Just to be clear, I'm not saying SK's exhaustion was something he could immediately shrug off, I'm just saying that exhaustion has different levels, you'll need more than one example to substantiate your theory that force reserves cannot be regained quickly. Moreover, we have Jaina and Dooku regaining their reserves almost instantaneously, proving that it is possible to regain lost reserves in a short space of time.

And if Starkiller's exhaustion is likened to 13 days of exhaustion?

And the force is a cheap substitute for food and rest,  yet thou still wanst those things. Thou still tire while bidding towards the force as Jaina didst.  E'en TUF Luke whom was bidding on a maelstrom of the force was capable of tiring.  E'en Dooku wore down from one fight.  E'en Jaina collapsed. The force is a crutch,  yet that doesn't mean it puts thou at max power when bid upon from a weakened state. The implication is that thou could start the fight on a 10-day heroin binge and then just bid towards the force and be just as firm-set as thou were 11 days since.

This had been like arguing Darth Caedus was at 100 percent of his max power after weeks of rest for his rematch against Jaina

DC77 (Bicurious Birth) wrote:To quickly address this, I think the line was clearly exaggeration, meant to convey the idea that SK is completely worn out. I don't see the line literally meaning SK is on the verge of death, if he was  intended to be the writer would have put more emphasis on it rather than glossing over it in a single line. SK's 13 day period was something that was emphasised, yet when SK is in an even worse state and about to face the main antagonist the writer just goes "Nah, I'll throw it in one line and leave it at that". That doesn't seem logical tbh.

Doth thee realize the writer literally made a callback to his "13 days" right after killing the clones correct? This means the writer was firmly aknown of when he spent 13 days  'i a pit exhausted and starved when he wrote the line that he's ne'r felt so exhausted  'i his life.  The writer referenced that time  'i comparison to his current status.  Hence when thou emphasize the importance of the pit, thou just indirectly granted credence to his exhaustion prior to Vader.

DC69 (Biologically unable to give birth) wrote:Citation needed.

@BreakOfDawn Hope you don't mind me stealing your debate, I'll let you take over if yah want.

Forsooth, forsooth dawnbreaker doesn't mind! All Vader is good Vader. Anti-Vader is like someone farting 'i a haggis sandwich.

This is brilliant

I needed this this morning. Also, why does Dawnbreaker sound better than BreakofDawn?

Revan, for sure. Just greater feats and better scaling.

KingofBlades wrote:This is brilliant