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SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 17th 2019, 3:21 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@SithSauce wrote:
@Ziggy wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Also it is quite amusing that people who claim Vader being a weakling using Lucas as a source also ignores his statement of Vader being at %80 of Sidious.


Again, the evidence should be prioritised here too.  

Lucas' word is above most articles in the lore.

But what about the discrepancies within his own statements?  

In which case his view on the PT and Original trilogy characters ( old men, young boys & busted cyborgs vs the Jedi in their prime) seems to spell out his intentions for the general level of these characters.  Whereas the 80% comment was in regards to how much potential Vader lost (compared to 200% of Palpatine) and seems to be a figure that Lucas may or may not have properly thought out. I don't take it seriously. The alternative, of course, is to respect both statements and then rate TPM all-stars as having a substantial fraction of Palpatine's power too - Maul, Ginn and Kenobi etc.

Regardless the Lucas angle isn't needed to dispell the abject wanking of this character.  You can just look at Luke's inexperience as of ESB and his ability to stand up to Vader.  The fact that Obi-Wan is a shade of his former (ATOC) self in ANH.  The Maul doppelganger fight and how people with no renown in the PT could take him on as remnants scrambling around gives credence to the idea that Vader is a vastly overrated character.
Lucas specifically say's Vader is 20% less powerful than Sidious.
This will continue to mean nothing until you quantify the gap.
He is 20% less powerful than the most powerful sith lord. That alone tells me he isn't below TPM Kenobi like some idiots are saying
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 17th 2019, 3:27 pm
Currently I can't decide if KOTOR Revan is superior to Malak. There are things that I have unanswered:

> How did Revan defeat Malak? By his dueling skills, powers, intelligence, cheap shots, gear or last second power boosts? The background of their battle seems kinda unclear to me. 

> Could Revan also tap into power of Star Forge? As I know the answer of this question is no but I ain't really sure.

I know that at the end of KOTOR, Revan surpassed his previous self in power. However I am still unsure whether he is above, equal or below to SF Malak. It seems that he is above but I can't really rank them.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 17th 2019, 3:29 pm
IdrisianGraecus wrote:I assume that that Revan grew in power, which seems likely overall. Remember that Meetra couldn’t use enlightenment, or draw power from her bonds, which weakened her more than the nexus already did.
I agree that Revan did likely grow in power, but I doubt it was all that significant. Also what makes you think she couldn't use force enlightenment. If she was able to use it on Malachor V then there's no reason she couldn't use it on Dromund Kaas. Her being unable to call on her force bonds is irrelevant. In battle scenarios like this she's solo so she won't get force bonds. So the Nyriss fight was a perfect scenario for getting an accurate comparison between Revan and Meetra. And the comparison showed that Meetra was fodder compared to Revan. Malak is not fodder to Revan. Therefore Malak>Meetra
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 17th 2019, 3:33 pm
@SithSauce wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
@SithSauce wrote:
@Ziggy wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Also it is quite amusing that people who claim Vader being a weakling using Lucas as a source also ignores his statement of Vader being at %80 of Sidious.


Again, the evidence should be prioritised here too.  

Lucas' word is above most articles in the lore.

But what about the discrepancies within his own statements?  

In which case his view on the PT and Original trilogy characters ( old men, young boys & busted cyborgs vs the Jedi in their prime) seems to spell out his intentions for the general level of these characters.  Whereas the 80% comment was in regards to how much potential Vader lost (compared to 200% of Palpatine) and seems to be a figure that Lucas may or may not have properly thought out. I don't take it seriously. The alternative, of course, is to respect both statements and then rate TPM all-stars as having a substantial fraction of Palpatine's power too - Maul, Ginn and Kenobi etc.

Regardless the Lucas angle isn't needed to dispell the abject wanking of this character.  You can just look at Luke's inexperience as of ESB and his ability to stand up to Vader.  The fact that Obi-Wan is a shade of his former (ATOC) self in ANH.  The Maul doppelganger fight and how people with no renown in the PT could take him on as remnants scrambling around gives credence to the idea that Vader is a vastly overrated character.
Lucas specifically say's Vader is 20% less powerful than Sidious.
This will continue to mean nothing until you quantify the gap.
He is 20% less powerful than the most powerful sith lord. That alone tells me he isn't below TPM Kenobi like some idiots are saying
I agree that he's not sub TPM Kenobi. I have RotJ Vader being comparable to RotS Kenobi. I just find it nonsensical when people try to use the 80% quote as evidence for Vader being superior to X character.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 17th 2019, 3:35 pm
Revan should have grown in power post-KOTOR. He finally begun to become his old self at the end of KOTOR. His power growth without memories was already very fast and efficient. Gaining all those memories, knowledge should contribute to his newly found strength quite much.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 17th 2019, 3:39 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@SithSauce wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
@SithSauce wrote:
@Ziggy wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Also it is quite amusing that people who claim Vader being a weakling using Lucas as a source also ignores his statement of Vader being at %80 of Sidious.


Again, the evidence should be prioritised here too.  

Lucas' word is above most articles in the lore.

But what about the discrepancies within his own statements?  

In which case his view on the PT and Original trilogy characters ( old men, young boys & busted cyborgs vs the Jedi in their prime) seems to spell out his intentions for the general level of these characters.  Whereas the 80% comment was in regards to how much potential Vader lost (compared to 200% of Palpatine) and seems to be a figure that Lucas may or may not have properly thought out. I don't take it seriously. The alternative, of course, is to respect both statements and then rate TPM all-stars as having a substantial fraction of Palpatine's power too - Maul, Ginn and Kenobi etc.

Regardless the Lucas angle isn't needed to dispell the abject wanking of this character.  You can just look at Luke's inexperience as of ESB and his ability to stand up to Vader.  The fact that Obi-Wan is a shade of his former (ATOC) self in ANH.  The Maul doppelganger fight and how people with no renown in the PT could take him on as remnants scrambling around gives credence to the idea that Vader is a vastly overrated character.
Lucas specifically say's Vader is 20% less powerful than Sidious.
This will continue to mean nothing until you quantify the gap.
He is 20% less powerful than the most powerful sith lord. That alone tells me he isn't below TPM Kenobi like some idiots are saying
I agree that he's not sub TPM Kenobi. I have RotJ Vader being comparable to RotS Kenobi. I just find it nonsensical when people try to use the 80% quote as evidence for Vader being superior to X character.
Oh yeh don't get me wrong I'm not using this quote to highball Vader at all. ROTS Kenobi level seems like a decent enough placement for him  Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 1289255181
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 17th 2019, 3:40 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Currently I can't decide if KOTOR Revan is superior to Malak. There are things that I have unanswered:

> How did Revan defeat Malak? By his dueling skills, powers, intelligence, cheap shots, gear or last second power boosts? The background of their battle seems kinda unclear to me. 

> Could Revan also tap into power of Star Forge? As I know the answer of this question is no but I ain't really sure.

I know that at the end of KOTOR, Revan surpassed his previous self in power. However I am still unsure whether he is above, equal or below to SF Malak. It seems that he is above but I can't really rank them.
KotOR Revan is decisively superior to Malak. Since LS Revan is the canonical path, Revan will have been considerably hindered on the SF. While hindered he had to fight through an army of sith and force enhanced droids. Then he had to fight and defeat SF Bastila(someone above the great jedi masters of the day) multiple times since she kept getting rejuvenated by the SF. Then he goes on with no rest from the previous engagements to defeat SF Malak multiple times since Malak got repeatedly rejuvenated by the jedi he captured. So there is no way it can be argued Malak is >KotOR Revan.
Ziggy
Ziggy

Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 17th 2019, 3:43 pm
@SithSauce wrote:
@Ziggy wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Also it is quite amusing that people who claim Vader being a weakling using Lucas as a source also ignores his statement of Vader being at %80 of Sidious.


Again, the evidence should be prioritised here too.  

Lucas' word is above most articles in the lore.

But what about the discrepancies within his own statements?  

In which case his view on the PT and Original trilogy characters ( old men, young boys & busted cyborgs vs the Jedi in their prime) seems to spell out his intentions for the general level of these characters.  Whereas the 80% comment was in regards to how much potential Vader lost (compared to 200% of Palpatine) and seems to be a figure that Lucas may or may not have properly thought out. I don't take it seriously. The alternative, of course, is to respect both statements and then rate TPM all-stars as having a substantial fraction of Palpatine's power too - Maul, Ginn and Kenobi etc.

Regardless the Lucas angle isn't needed to dispell the abject wanking of this character.  You can just look at Luke's inexperience as of ESB and his ability to stand up to Vader.  The fact that Obi-Wan is a shade of his former (ATOC) self in ANH.  The Maul doppelganger fight and how people with no renown in the PT could take him on as remnants scrambling around gives credence to the idea that Vader is a vastly overrated character.
Lucas specifically say's Vader is 20% less powerful than Sidious.

Ok, but then with his other remark about the "prime of the order being > Vader, you must then justify Maul and co being in excess of that figure.  I.E around >80% to Sheev.  As well as ROTJ Luke being on that level despite being cannon fodder to a toying Emporer, seen as he and Vader are equals by the same Word of God. 


@DeronSolo

As an aside, Lucas viewed his world as being completely seperated from the Legends canon as he has stated such in interviews. 

You practically have two different version of Vader -- the on drumed up by Lucas as a broken old man, and the one created by Legends canon that has his feats parallel with other titans of the mythos and is a masked baddass.


First of all, there was no Vader "created" by Legends. 

There is the Vader Lucas created and once owned as intellectual property.  

That Vader was sometimes adapted in Legends material.  While Lucas said the universes were separate, it is also true that LFL respected the movies and Lucas' vision at the top of the hierarchy within EU material itself, claiming that the only facts of Star Wars existed in the six movies alone and everything else was relative. 

Regardless, Vader's EU feats aren't unprecedented nor are they top tier.  They've been replicated in magnitude by characters outside of those leagues, such as K'kruhk.  His combative feats against Force wielders; the only metric that matters, are mediocre considering the competition.  And before you go there, parity with Starkiller II was debunked by Ant. 

Vader doesn't need to be strong in Legends when he's left fighting the remnants of the Jedi order.  All the decent people are either dead: Plo Koon, Mundi, Fisto... or decrepit: Ben Kenobi and Yoda on Degobah.  So the broken old man was never contradicted in Legends.  Being a "Masked-badass" only covers up what's on the inside on a superficial level.  Which the whole point of the character anyway.  



Disney canon seems to favor with the former over the latter if I'm we're being honest

Which is both irrespective to the debate at hand, and inconsequential to how he was portrayed in the old story.  Which Disney clearly doesn't care about - See TLJ for reference.


Last edited by Ziggy on September 17th 2019, 3:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik - Page 4 Empty Re: Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

September 17th 2019, 3:47 pm
@Ziggy I added more to my reply. Just since I'm on mobile things are a little awkward to write
Ziggy
Ziggy

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September 17th 2019, 3:52 pm
ROTJ Vader might not be ~ TPM Kenobi but ANH Vader, who could at best cause an upset against the revived Maul after getting his ass handed to him, is on that level.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

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September 17th 2019, 3:53 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Currently I can't decide if KOTOR Revan is superior to Malak. There are things that I have unanswered:

> How did Revan defeat Malak? By his dueling skills, powers, intelligence, cheap shots, gear or last second power boosts? The background of their battle seems kinda unclear to me. 

> Could Revan also tap into power of Star Forge? As I know the answer of this question is no but I ain't really sure.

I know that at the end of KOTOR, Revan surpassed his previous self in power. However I am still unsure whether he is above, equal or below to SF Malak. It seems that he is above but I can't really rank them.
KotOR Revan is decisively superior to Malak. Since LS Revan is the canonical path, Revan will have been considerably hindered on the SF. While hindered he had to fight through an army of sith and force enhanced droids. Then he had to fight and defeat SF Bastila(someone above the great jedi masters of the day) multiple times since she kept getting rejuvenated by the SF. Then he goes on with no rest from the previous engagements to defeat SF Malak multiple times since Malak got repeatedly rejuvenated by the jedi he captured. So there is no way it can be argued Malak is >KotOR Revan.

You have good points brother, but there are some other factors:

LS Revan is canon as we know, however Revan is a person who can both use the dark and light side of the Force. Even if his philosophy and morals were LS, why would not he also use SF? Revan also is familiar with Force Drain. Why wouldn't he channel the power of fallen Jedi?

The battle that took place during the SF had many combatants in the background. Who knows, maybe the other Jedi helped him clear waves of Sith or Droid troopers, Canderous, HK, Jolee, Juhani may all have been with him until his confrontation with Bastila. And the device that crafts equipment for Revan may have served other purposes? Since the background of the fight is unexplained, I have doubts of power scales of KOTOR. Revan is massively superior to Malak in raw power but I am not quite sure of their duel during the end.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

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September 17th 2019, 3:59 pm
@Ziggy wrote:ROTJ Vader might not be ~ TPM Kenobi but ANH Vader, who could at best cause an upset against the revived Maul after getting his ass handed to him, is on that level.

That comic was non-canon even in EU...

That was not Maul, an amped doppelganger created by Palpatine's pawns.

Apparently it was a test for Vader, him being able to tap into hate to defeat his opponent.

But none of these matter since the comic was n-canon.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

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September 17th 2019, 4:01 pm
Also when did Ant debunk Vader's parity with SK? Care to share the link?
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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September 17th 2019, 4:17 pm
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=2

Read "#2 - Too Tired to . . . Fail?". The argument is also continued in his next response to Elm. I'd recommend reading the whole debate tbh, as it's a very good discussion.

@HellfireUnit


Last edited by NotAA3 on September 17th 2019, 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ziggy
Ziggy

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September 17th 2019, 4:18 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@Ziggy wrote:ROTJ Vader might not be ~ TPM Kenobi but ANH Vader, who could at best cause an upset against the revived Maul after getting his ass handed to him, is on that level.

That comic was non-canon even in EU...

That was not Maul, an amped doppelganger created by Palpatine's pawns.

Apparently it was a test for Vader, him being able to tap into hate to defeat his opponent.

But none of these matter since the comic was n-canon.


The current meta seems to back and forth between whether the comic was canon or not.  I do recall Chee noting it's canonicity, however. 

Maul being a doppelganger, wouldn't preclude him from having the same power.  His features, weaponry and personality seem the same, why does his power change if it's a clone..?  Only because Vader fans want it too, apparently. 

Lastly, an amp isn't evident anywhere in that comic.  Something tells me you're still living in an outdated meta where a lot of these excuses have been rebuked years ago. 

If you're claiming the environment is a Nexus then Vader, with the same Force alignment as Maul, gets an equal amp
If you're claiming the cloaked acolytes had a battle link with Maul, then that would have to be something literally proven to be taken seriously. 


Also when did Ant debunk Vader's parity with SK? Care to share the link?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=2

You're green as grass if you don't know the debate I'm talking about.

Red Ant's first post regarding Starkiller II's condition when fighting Vader. I.E physically and emotionally exhausted does not a powerful warrior make.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Level Seven

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September 17th 2019, 4:24 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Vader lowball here is ridicilious tbh. Hopefully I'll change this in time.
Don't hold your breath. At least Comicvine somewhat respected Vader. People on here would probably argue R2 could beat Vader.

Actually, now that I mention it...
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

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September 17th 2019, 4:25 pm
That's because no one has risen to defend Vader's mantle...
Ziggy
Ziggy

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September 17th 2019, 4:30 pm
You've clearly been sucking on his mantle.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

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September 17th 2019, 4:31 pm
^ Lol
On CV, people thought that Vader would shitstomp all of Legends bar Yoda, Sidious and Luke.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
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September 17th 2019, 4:32 pm
LS Revan is canon as we know, however Revan is a person who can both use the dark and light side of the Force. Even if his philosophy and morals were LS, why would not he also use SF? Revan also is familiar with Force Drain. Why wouldn't he channel the power of fallen Jedi?

@HellfireUnit: LS Revan may* use the dark side in unison with the light side, but he's never shown willingness to use it alone. And consuming the life energy of near-dead Jedi is among the most morally egregious things you could do as a Jedi. The light side path, which is the canon version, has Revan simply freeing them.

As for the Star Forge, Revan could not have received the same amp that Malak did. Malak seized control over and formed a direct bond with the station's semi-sentience, which directly funneled energy into him to permanently bolster his powers. Revan didn't have. More importantly, we know Revan either didn't or couldn't draw on the Star Forge's general nexus given his fight with Bastila. Bastila initially riddiculed Revan for being no match for her specifically because "here on the Star Forge the dark side is at its fullest" and that "you are no match for me here" (which wouldn't be true if Revan could also draw on the nexus), then mid-battle mocked that the nexus was constantly replenishing her powers whereas the light side couldn't for Revan, and finally at the end asked how Revan could possibly beat her after "rejecting the dark side." 

(Note that Malak muses if Revan had the same amp as him, he would become "truly invincible.")

*Oh and, going off Bastila's commentary, it doesn't look like Revan even has his "Force in balance" philosophy yet. He likely developed that after KOTOR. 

The battle that took place during the SF had many combatants in the background. Who knows, maybe the other Jedi helped him clear waves of Sith or Droid troopers, Canderous, HK, Jolee, Juhani may all have been with him until his confrontation with Bastila.

It's actually very wanky, but Malak didn't think any group of Jedi could have survived even the first wave of droids. When a Dark Jedi Master revealed it was because of Revan, Malak ordered everyone on the station to convene on his location, yet still said "of course" they couldn't defeat him. Note there's no mention of Revan's companions anywhere in Malak's assessment, and whatever companions he brings are effortlessly one-shot by Bastila anyway.

"I have news, Lord Malak. About the Jedi."

"Ah, the Jedi. Did my droids pass their test? Did they destroy our enemies?"

"No, Lord Malak. The droids could not stop them."

"Strange. I did not think there were any among the Order who could survive an attack by an army of the Star Forrge's battle droids."

"It - it was Revan. Your old master is with the Jedi, here on the Star Forge!"

"Yes, that would explain why the droids failed. Revan was always strong in the Force. Very well - sound out all available troops. The apprentices, as well."

"Do you - do you think they can stop Revan, Lord Malak?"

"Of course not! But they will slow Revan down. That will give me the time I need to fully prepare the Star Forge's defenses."

Emphasis on the blue text also. Malak actually just planned to use these armies to stall Revan as he prepared for the Infinite Army -- the true threat -- which he thought would actually "destroy" Revan. Revan fought and destroyed the Infinite Army alone. Malak was so impressed by this that he abruptly changed his belief that Revan was a shadow of his former self and "an insignificant speak beneath his notice" to admitting, "You are stronger than I thought; stronger than you ever were during your reign as the Dark Lord. I did not think that was possible." And Revan still had enough juice left in him to beat down Malak multiple times in a row.

And the device that crafts equipment for Revan may have served other purposes? Since the background of the fight is unexplained, I have doubts of power scales of KOTOR

The device made him the robes he wears in the Revan novel and the MMO. That's all.

Revan is massively superior to Malak in raw power but I am not quite sure of their duel during the end.

Revan fought Malak in a direct lightsaber duel and Force battle and defeated him multiple times over consecutively. Malak then conceded inferiority as he died.

[hideedit]


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on September 17th 2019, 4:39 pm; edited 7 times in total
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

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September 17th 2019, 4:34 pm
@Ziggy wrote:You've clearly been sucking on his mantle.
nah.

 obi-wan took it away.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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September 17th 2019, 4:45 pm
@DarthAnt66 thanks for the clarifications mate, though still many things remain unclear in the background. Unfortunately we will never receive a novel or comic that summarized the events of Star Forge. From what you say, Revan is above Malak but gap shouldn't be too much it appears.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
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September 17th 2019, 4:47 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:@DarthAnt66 thanks for the clarifications mate, though still many things remain unclear in the background. Unfortunately we will never receive a novel or comic that summarized the events of Star Forge. From what you say, Revan is above Malak but gap shouldn't be too much it appears.

@Hellfireunit: No problem. Though, what do you think is unclear, and why do you think the gap isn't too much? Remember that while Revan fought through multiple armies, Bastila, and the Infinite Army, Malak relaxed as the Star Forge siphoned extreme power into him. Yet Revan still defeated Malak multiple times in a row.
Ziggy
Ziggy

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September 17th 2019, 4:52 pm
@Deronn_Solo wrote:
@Ziggy wrote:You've clearly been sucking on his mantle.
nah.

 obi-wan took it away.


.... no he didn't. 

The legs were cut off, not his whole lower half, you're thinking of Maul.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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Level Six

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September 17th 2019, 4:53 pm
@Ziggy I don't really followed forums other than CV so it is normal I didn't know about that debate. 

Also that novel was n-canon either way so none of it holds any value. Besides that, Prophets of the Dark Side were pawns of Sidious. It was implied this whole thing has been orchestraded by Sidious. His sudden appearance and annihilation of prophets proves that. This was nothing but a test for Vader if he had power into his hatred to defeat his opponent and Sidious got the result he wanted to. I'd write more about this but being on mobile sucks and I don't see the importance of an n-canon novel which I'd rather have it as canon.
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