Darth Vader vs Meetra Surik

NotAA3 wrote:I suppose my Vader "lowballing" is now looking quite tame, isn't it? And yes, the lowballing is utterly ridiculous.

Not referring to u. Referring to Jake, MP, Ziggy

If you want to use the Vader and Ben Kenobi being a "shell of their former self" quote, you must also acknowledge that, in the same source, Vader was stated to get sigficantly better in ESB.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

SithSauce wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:I suppose my Vader "lowballing" is now looking quite tame, isn't it? And yes, the lowballing is utterly ridiculous.

Not referring to u. Referring to Jake, MP, Ziggy

I know you weren't. I'm saying you've accused me of lowballing in the past, but what I was/am doing looks very tame in comparison to this. Congratulations, you have finally learned the true meaning of lowballing.

Jake wrote:Vader’s speed is second to Yoda’s according to Jax, which is why he’s matched by a post-prime Kuro who, in her prime, lost competitive spars to Padawan A’Sharad, but that’s okay because we assume exponential growth on her part?

So much wrong here. It was second to Yoda's according to Ferus not Jax.

Also, he was not "matched" by Kuro. Kuro couldn't stand against him in a straight fight, and she had to keep exploiting the environment to her advantage for surprise ambushes n shit.

She charged at Vader with her lightsaber while Vader was unarmed and he caught her wrist and slammed her ass on the ground. Miss me with that shit about how she "matched" him.

Deronn_Solo wrote:I know what your point was. I was just asking does she have more to her name than the aforesaid accolades.

Given how the said feat [besting Traya] seems to be Meetra's claim to fame, it's rather important to the thread at hand. 

I know Ant did a number on Vader's in  rep in large with indegious statements - which, honestly, is subject to scrutiny, especially given the EU writers misinterpreted the character George intended Vader to be. But, I didn't think he'd fall this far to sub-Meetra, who is quite frankly, floating somewhere around Plo Koon and Fisto's level.

I don't see how the EU misinterpreted the character Lucas intended Vader to be. Vader has his fair share of poor showings in the EU that can easily be attributed by the fact that he is a shadow of his former prime as George Lucas says he is. At the same time Vader has a lot of good showings throughout the EU, but not enough to suggest he is anywhere near Sidious level. At the end of the day Vader is very powerful, but he still an example of failed potential. Which is what I think Lucas intended his character to be. And considering how stupidly high his potential was, I don't see how failing to reach that suddenly puts him at fodder level like some people say

Jake wrote:Vader’s speed is second to Yoda’s according to Jax, which is why he’s matched by a post-prime Kuro who, in her prime, lost competitive spars to Padawan A’Sharad, but that’s okay because we assume exponential growth on her part? Nick Rostu’s words don’t hold much weight when, per G-Canon, Vader’s vastly inferior to the shadow of his former self Ben Kenobi. 

Meetra is less garbage than this.

The bolded is true. 

As for the body.  Jake is right.  In a mythos tarred with many different brushes at once, some evidence has to prioritised above others.  Vader fans seem to prefer it's weakest forms that supports him E.G - Nick Rostu's opinion.  His detractors use everything else, including articles which contradict the hype.  

You don't need to look much further than the movies, in which Luke challenges him in ESB.  Luke is not Vader's equal, or close to being it.  But there doesn't look to be a whole tier of difference between them, in which you needed several just to justify Vader "stomping" anyone.

Also it is quite amusing that people who claim Vader being a weakling using Lucas as a source also ignores his statement of Vader being at %80 of Sidious.

LSDMB wrote:

Jake wrote:Vader’s speed is second to Yoda’s according to Jax, which is why he’s matched by a post-prime Kuro who, in her prime, lost competitive spars to Padawan A’Sharad, but that’s okay because we assume exponential growth on her part?

So much wrong here. It was second to Yoda's according to Ferus not Jax.

Also, he was not "matched" by Kuro. Kuro couldn't stand against him in a straight fight, and she had to keep exploiting the environment to her advantage for surprise ambushes n shit.

She charged at Vader with her lightsaber while Vader was unarmed and he caught her wrist and slammed her ass on the ground. Miss me with that shit about how she "matched" him.

What's funny is that he calls him "garbage", yet a pre prime Vader is confirmed to be more powerful than Asajj Ventress a character who he wanks to death.
He is a tool, just ignore him lol

Nice, keep using debunked quotes

How is it debunked? At this point you'll attempt to debunk anything that remotely favors Vader

Wait are you referring to my response or Hellfire?

Lucas=God. How do you debunk his quote if I may ask?

I'm saying misinterpreted, simply because the fact of the matter is Vader, at least as Lucas originally envisioned (going by some of his older quotes) is supposed to be below the titans of the PT era in general.

The fact that Old man Kenobi was vastly more powerful than Vader in his early draft, or Vader is a broken half man, half machine against a half trained boy, resonates as someone not up to par, with the way he is portrayed in Legends. Example: Character statements saying he is faster than everyone in the Order sans Yoda, or that he is more powerful than his RotS self, or that he is contending with someone on Galen's level who had Luke's potential with much more extensive and brutal training, or him being analogous to Joruus C'baoth - whom Luke stated was "much more powerful than himself" during the Rebellion era.

He doesn't have to be at Sidious level, the ultimate bad guy in the mythos by the EU writers, to be something more than what George originally meant.

As for the low showings, meh. Everyone has them, so I don't see why Vader's are more examined under a microscope than most.

By the way I don't use that quote during my debates, but people who claim Vader being a tier 4 character backed by some whatever Lucas' quote also ignore the quotes that shows how powerful Vader compared to other characters is amazing.

Also I don't get this Vader hate. I have never been a fan of the Cyborg Sith Lord but so far, people determine their ranking of Vader with their personal like/dislike towards him rather than being objective.

HellfireUnit wrote:Also it is quite amusing that people who claim Vader being a weakling using Lucas as a source also ignores his statement of Vader being at %80 of Sidious.

It's been proven many times that Vader being 80% of Sidious means absolutely nothing since there is no way to quantify the gap.

I don’t frankly hold Vader that low, compared to some of the guys here (Vader being sub-TPM Kenobi is utter horseshit). I hold prime suit Vader Beneath Kun, which is why he loses. That’s not saying he’s that weak, he’s just sub Kun, who’s accolades of being > BFC Luke is rather impressive.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:I don’t frankly hold Vader that low, compared to some of the guys here (Vader being sub-TPM Kenobi is utter horseshit). I hold prime suit Vader Beneath Kun, which is why he loses. That’s not saying he’s that weak, he’s just sub Kun, who’s accolades of being > BFC Luke is rather impressive.

Tbh I don't see how Meetra scales above Kun. Your scaling chain didn't make much sense since you had multiple ragdoll tier gaps  between SF Bastila and Meetra and yet still said Bastila was in KotoR Revan's tier. This is especially hard to believe since Meetra was fodder tier compared to Revan Reborn who isn't that much stronger than KotOR Revan.

HellfireUnit wrote:Also it is quite amusing that people who claim Vader being a weakling using Lucas as a source also ignores his statement of Vader being at %80 of Sidious.

Again, the evidence should be prioritised here too.  

Lucas' word is above most articles in the lore.

But what about the discrepancies within his own statements?  

In which case his view on the PT and Original trilogy characters ( old men, young boys & busted cyborgs vs the Jedi in their prime) seems to spell out his intentions for the general level of these characters.  Whereas the 80% comment was in regards to how much potential Vader lost (compared to 200% of Palpatine) and seems to be a figure that Lucas may or may not have properly thought out. I don't take it seriously. The alternative, of course, is to respect both statements and then rate TPM all-stars as having a substantial fraction of Palpatine's power too - Maul, Ginn and Kenobi etc.

Regardless the Lucas angle isn't needed to dispell the abject wanking of this character.  You can just look at Luke's inexperience as of ESB and his ability to stand up to Vader.  The fact that Obi-Wan is a shade of his former (ATOC) self in ANH.  The Maul doppelganger fight and how people with no renown in the PT could take him on as remnants scrambling around gives credence to the idea that Vader is a vastly overrated character.

I rambled, and honestly, the Bastila part was just bullshitting but I can’t really articulate this well enough via text, but again, tier is used loosely. I’m just assuming Meetra is > Kun b/c of her (likely) superiority to Malak, along with Traya + Nihilus.

Ziggy wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Also it is quite amusing that people who claim Vader being a weakling using Lucas as a source also ignores his statement of Vader being at %80 of Sidious.

Again, the evidence should be prioritised here too.  

Lucas' word is above most articles in the lore.

But what about the discrepancies within his own statements?  

In which case his view on the PT and Original trilogy characters ( old men, young boys & busted cyborgs vs the Jedi in their prime) seems to spell out his intentions for the general level of these characters.  Whereas the 80% comment was in regards to how much potential Vader lost (compared to 200% of Palpatine) and seems to be a figure that Lucas may or may not have properly thought out. I don't take it seriously. The alternative, of course, is to respect both statements and then rate TPM all-stars as having a substantial fraction of Palpatine's power too - Maul, Ginn and Kenobi etc.

Regardless the Lucas angle isn't needed to dispell the abject wanking of this character.  You can just look at Luke's inexperience as of ESB and his ability to stand up to Vader.  The fact that Obi-Wan is a shade of his former (ATOC) self in ANH.  The Maul doppelganger fight and how people with no renown in the PT could take him on as remnants scrambling around gives credence to the idea that Vader is a vastly overrated character.

Lucas specifically say's Vader is 20% less powerful than Sidious. ESB Luke stood up to a Vader who was holding back, while Luke was doing everything in his power to try and kill the guy who at this point thought he had killed his father. Using this to downplay Vader is absurd. 
Vader defeated Maul while vastly pre prime. Don't know what you are talking about. The comic is non canon anyway.
Sure Ben Kenobi may be inferior to his AOTC self in saber skill which is pointed out in the article. That doesn't mean he is an inferior overall combatant.
The idea that every PT Jedi is superior to Vader is downright garbage when most of the Jedi in those films, Lucas portrays as fodder. Coleman Trevor, all the Jedi that died when Order 66 was given etc. 
Then we have Lucas comparing Vader's power to that off Dooku and Maul's is something to take into consideration. And just goes to show even further that he is not below AOTC Anakin, TPM Kenobi as you say he is.
"Vader is overrated"
Like hell he is lol.

SithSauce wrote:

Ziggy wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Also it is quite amusing that people who claim Vader being a weakling using Lucas as a source also ignores his statement of Vader being at %80 of Sidious.

Again, the evidence should be prioritised here too.  

Lucas' word is above most articles in the lore.

But what about the discrepancies within his own statements?  

In which case his view on the PT and Original trilogy characters ( old men, young boys & busted cyborgs vs the Jedi in their prime) seems to spell out his intentions for the general level of these characters.  Whereas the 80% comment was in regards to how much potential Vader lost (compared to 200% of Palpatine) and seems to be a figure that Lucas may or may not have properly thought out. I don't take it seriously. The alternative, of course, is to respect both statements and then rate TPM all-stars as having a substantial fraction of Palpatine's power too - Maul, Ginn and Kenobi etc.

Regardless the Lucas angle isn't needed to dispell the abject wanking of this character.  You can just look at Luke's inexperience as of ESB and his ability to stand up to Vader.  The fact that Obi-Wan is a shade of his former (ATOC) self in ANH.  The Maul doppelganger fight and how people with no renown in the PT could take him on as remnants scrambling around gives credence to the idea that Vader is a vastly overrated character.

Lucas specifically say's Vader is 20% less powerful than Sidious.

This will continue to mean nothing until you quantify the gap.

As an aside, Lucas viewed his world as being completely seperated from the Legends canon as he has stated such in interviews. 

You practically have two different interpertations of Vader -- the one drumed up by the O.G. Lucas as a broken old man, and the one created by Legends canon that has his feats parallel with other titans of the mythos and is a masked baddass.

Disney canon seems to favor the latter  over the former, if we're being honest

IdrisianGraecus wrote:I rambled, and honestly, the Bastila part was just bullshitting but I can’t really articulate this well enough via text, but again, tier is used loosely. I’m just assuming Meetra is > Kun b/c of her (likely) superiority to Malak, along with Traya + Nihilus.

Well if we assume KotoR Revan is ~ to Revan Reborn then that means Meetra is fodder to KotOR Revan as well. While Malak was decisively inferior to KotOR Revan, he still wasn't fodder to him. So Meetra being >Malak is highly unlikely

I assume that that Revan grew in power, which seems likely overall. Remember that Meetra couldn’t use enlightenment, or draw power from her bonds, which weakened her more than the nexus already did.