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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
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How much effect would Count Dooku’s Lightning have on Darth Vader - Page 3 Empty Re: How much effect would Count Dooku’s Lightning have on Darth Vader

September 16th 2019, 3:26 pm
First, here are some extracts from the script itself: 

Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain,
as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He
shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes.

Merely being in Vader's presence tests Ben, to the point that he begins sweating and breathing heavily.




Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked
by a lightning movement of The Sith.

A strike by Ben is casually blocked by Vader.


A masterful slash stroke by Vader is blocked by the old Jedi. Another of the Jedi's
blows is blocked, then countered. Ben moves around the Dark Lord and starts backing into the massive starship hangar.

The two exchange a few blows, then Ben retreats backwards to gain some ground. Note that during all of this, Vader was fighting defensively:


Ben Kenobi moves with elegant ease into a classical offensive position. The fearsome Dark Knight takes a defensive stance.

The only suggestion of parity here is Ben managing to block two blows from Vader, yet Vader drives him back throughout the exchange according to the script.

Then we have the original novel,
The Life and Adventures of Luke Skywalker:


There would be no reasoning here, Kenobi knew. Igniting his saber, he assumed the pose of warrior-ready, a movement accomplished with the ease and elegance of a dancer.
Rather roughly, Vader imitated the movement. Several minutes followed without motion as the two men remained staring at each other, as if waiting for some proper, as
yet unspoken signal.

Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyelids fluttered again.

Again, Vader's mere presence is causing Ben to sweat and feel disorientated.


Executing a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape. Vader blocked the stab with equalspeed, riposting with a counterslash that
Kenobi barely parried.

Casually blocks a strike from Ben, then responds with a stabbing motion that Ben barely prevents from hitting him.


Another parry and Kenobi countered again, using this opportunity to move around the towering Dark Lord.

Ben is briefly able to exploit Vader's poor agility to pretty much weave around him, allowing him to get in front of the hangar.


They continued to trade blows, with the old man now backing toward the hangar.

Ben is forced on the defensive when he was originally fighting offensively, and is forced to give ground as Vader advances on him.


Kenobi heard the approaching commotion and spared a glance back into the hangar. The squad of troopers bearing down on him was enough to show that he was trapped.

Ben believes that Vader plus seven stormtroopers is enough to trap him and deems his chances of survival slim enough that he capitulates to Vader.

It should also be noted that all of these distinctions were made despite Vader being described as clumsy and rough:


Igniting his saber, he assumed the pose of warrior-ready, a movement accomplished with the ease and elegance of a dancer.
Rather roughly, Vader imitated the movement.


Vader took immediate advantage of the momentary distraction to bring his saber over and down. Kenobi somehow managed to deflect the sweeping blow, at once parrying and
turning a complete circle.



A quote often used to make out Kenobi is somehow on Vader's level in power and skill because he was able to react to a blow from Vader, an act that even the narrative suggests as being akin to luck or a miracle in its description of how he "somehow" managed to block it. 

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader also supports the idea that Vader was barely exerting himself, even going so far as to describe his blocking of Kenobi's first strike as being "with ease" and that he easily parried each of Obi-Wan's swift strikes:


Obi-Wan moved fast, lunging at Vader with his weapon, but the Dark Lord blocked the attack with ease. There was a loud electric crackle as their lightsabers made contact. Undeterred, Obi-Wan made a swift series of strikes, but each was parried by Vader. 

Now, let's look at a notorious quote used to suggest that Ben > Vader:


Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye

Two problems with this argument:

1) Vader still has notorious PTSD from Mustafar. He obsessively pursues Obi-Wan, interrogating Jedi and civilians alike simply to find Kenobi because, deep down, Vader is scared of Vader. In the same novel, barely 2 pages before, he can't help but reflect on everything he went through on Mustafar:


It was impossible not to remember vividly the last time they had seen each other, when his master had crippled him and left him to die on the fiery banks of a river of molten rock, light-years from here


Vader might hate Ben, but he remembers keenly what happened the last time he underestimated him. Vader is terrified that Ben will surprise him once again, and this time he won't be lucky enough to survive it. This isn't an accurate assessment of Ben's abilities in relation to the fight, merely an indication that Vader was still scared of him because of his lasting PTSD. This is again indicated barely half a page earlier:


There had always been in Vader a small bit of worry about this day. Not much: just a trace. He had been sure, in his youthful arrogance, that he had been stronger had been better than the Jedi knight who had been his teacher, and the memory of what Obi-Wan had done to him would never be erased. He had been a superior fighter even when he had been Anakin Skywalker, and yet Obi-Wan had defeated him.


Could he win now?


2) The quote completely ignores the context and narrative of the preceding pages:


"Only a master of evil, Darth." With that, Obi-Wan stepped in and cut.
Vader blocked the attack easily. Obi-Wan attacked again, and again, Vader blocked each strike. 


Vader riposted, sped up his timing, and took the initiative, forcing the erstwhile Jedi to defend.

Vader shoved, hard, and they broke the clash. Obi-Wan retreated a step. 


The Force might be strong in Obi-Wan, but the dark side was stronger in Vader. It let him anticipate his adversary's strikes and counter them almost before they began. 

Here is another key quote that should be taken into account that follows on from the one above: 


Obi-Wan knew it, too. He began a retreat, backing away, his lightsaber itself seeming weaker as he moved. 

Then, there's this: 



But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was still accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.

This is the one time during the entire fight that Obi-Wan gains the upper hand, and it was solely because Vader's defences were lowered so he could strike him down. Even then, Vader still reacted fast enough to block and dodge every single one of the strikes from Ben, despite Kenobi having an opening.


I could go more in-depth but I'm saving that for my blog, so to summarise what I've said here:

1) The two most poignant pieces of G-Canon depict Vader as clearly having the upper hand, forcing Ben to retreat and merely causing the Jedi to sweat and struggle by being in Vader's presence.
2) Vader was mentally hindered to an extent during the fight, allowing his memories and fear to cloud his actions and make him wary enough to avoid going completely on the offensive, which is his speciality. 
3) The "kill him in the blink of an eye" quote is massively taken out of context, and completely belies the actual tone of the fight. 
4) Despite George's early draft claim that Ben was "maybe" a 6 while Vader was a 4, this clearly did not make it into any version of the film, be it the script, novel, or the film itself. Therefore, that draft was simply that: a draft. It was a possible explanation they would have raised if necessary, not a confirmed canonical position. In fact, the novel and script actually depict this as being the complete opposite of what happened.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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September 16th 2019, 3:52 pm
BreakofDawn wrote:
4) Despite George's early draft claim that Ben was "maybe" a 6 while Vader was a 4, this clearly did not make it into any version of the film, be it the script, novel, or the film itself. Therefore, that draft was simply that: a draft. It was a possible explanation they would have raised if necessary, not a confirmed canonical position. In fact, the novel and script actually depict this as being the complete opposite of what happened.
Actually the statement was made after ANH's release.
The Adventurous Jedi
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September 16th 2019, 4:05 pm
@BreakofDawn

Will respond later tonight or tomorrow.
BreakofDawn
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September 16th 2019, 4:10 pm
KingofBlades wrote:
BreakofDawn wrote:
4) Despite George's early draft claim that Ben was "maybe" a 6 while Vader was a 4, this clearly did not make it into any version of the film, be it the script, novel, or the film itself. Therefore, that draft was simply that: a draft. It was a possible explanation they would have raised if necessary, not a confirmed canonical position. In fact, the novel and script actually depict this as being the complete opposite of what happened.
Actually the statement was made after ANH's release.

I know. Miscommunication on my part. I meant that it stands in complete contrast to what we see and thus is doubtful in its legitimacy.
KingofBlades
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September 16th 2019, 4:14 pm
BreakofDawn wrote:
KingofBlades wrote:
BreakofDawn wrote:
4) Despite George's early draft claim that Ben was "maybe" a 6 while Vader was a 4, this clearly did not make it into any version of the film, be it the script, novel, or the film itself. Therefore, that draft was simply that: a draft. It was a possible explanation they would have raised if necessary, not a confirmed canonical position. In fact, the novel and script actually depict this as being the complete opposite of what happened.
Actually the statement was made after ANH's release.

I know. Miscommunication on my part. I meant that it stands in complete contrast and thus is doubtful in its legitimacy.
It doesn't necessarily contrast anything. Kenobi could be still noticeably more powerful in the force but not enough to make it a factor in combat.
BreakofDawn
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September 16th 2019, 4:17 pm
Which, if you take that into account, means that Luke shouldn't have had massive trouble with the objects Vader was throwing at him for example, since he was a 2 to Vader's 4, just as Vader was a 4 to Ben's 6.
King Joker
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September 16th 2019, 4:23 pm
@BreakofDawn: Decent post, but I'm not quite understanding your interpretations of Vader's supposed "casual" nature in the fight from the excerpts you provided. Nothing in those specific quotes ("lightning movement," "blocked the stab with equal speed") reveal the amount of effort Vader was using in blocking Kenobi's attacks, only the skill and speed in which it was done.
KingofBlades
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September 16th 2019, 4:29 pm
BreakofDawn wrote:Which, if you take that into account, means that Luke shouldn't have had massive trouble with the objects Vader was throwing at him for example, since he was a 2 to Vader's 4, just as Vader was a 4 to Ben's 6.
It's entirely plausible Vader would've had the same difficulty that Luke had if Kenobi had started throwing objects. However there weren't objects present for Ben to throw since they spent most of the fight in an empty hallway
BreakofDawn
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September 16th 2019, 5:18 pm
Decent post, but I'm not quite understanding your interpretations of Vader's supposed "casual" nature in the fight from the excerpts you provided. Nothing in those specific quotes ("lightning movement," "blocked the stab with equal speed") reveal the amount of effort Vader was using in blocking Kenobi's attacks, only the skill and speed in which it was done.

Sorry, I'm not trying to say Vader was casual during the entire fight, especially since part of my argument is about how Vader was tense and mentally hindered by his anger and fear, lol. What I'm trying to say by "casually" is that Vader was easily able to block Ben's best attacks and counter with strikes that almost killed Ben. The entire point of the post is to debunk the whole idea that Ben stalemated Vader or that Ben is somehow much more powerful than Vader despite all indications in the film, script, novel and other related depictions of the fight, not that Vader was barely trying in the fight. I'll be exploring all of it in a lot more detail than a few hurried points and quotes soon.

@KingofBlades Except Ben didn't try anything with the Force. Force pushes, pulls, anything. If Ben was actually noticeably more powerful, felt he was being trapped and backed into a corner, and was losing the fight as is depicted in virtually every account of the fight, he would have used the Force to at least try and gain some sort of advantage as he has done in duels in the past. He didn't, either indicating that he wasn't actually more powerful or that the two were so closely matched that it wouldn't have worked, again throwing that whole "6-4-2" number system into question through simple logic.
The Adventurous Jedi
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September 16th 2019, 5:20 pm
Wow, Kenobi can't directly breach Vader's combative barrier... Neither could Vader when fighting Luke, so I really don't see the point to the argument given that your arguing against the gap being to the same degree.
The Adventurous Jedi
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September 16th 2019, 5:22 pm
That point is basically a goalpost switch. Stop jumping and accept Kenobi is > Vader in Force Power.
BreakofDawn
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September 16th 2019, 5:30 pm
Wow, Kenobi can't directly breach Vader's combative barrier... Neither could Vader when fighting Luke, so I really don't see the point to the argument given that your arguing against the gap being to the same degree.



I don't think you're following. I'm saying that he didn't try. At all. Literally, not a single Force attempt, despite it being his only arguable advantage against Vader. By contrast, Vader's attempt throughout his fight with Luke - to assess his abilities - involved him using the Force to test Luke's raw power and ability to fight, whereby Luke managed to hold up against a couple of the projectiles before quickly being overwhelmed. He wasn't trying to directly dominate him with the Force at all and still indirectly overpowered him with the Force, lol. The ESB script even has Luke unable to block the projectiles with the Force beyond the first one:



Behind Luke a large piece of machinery detaches itself from the wall
and comes smashing forward toward his back. Luke turns and cuts it in
half just as another machine comes hurtling at him. Using the Force,
Luke manages to deflect it and send it flying as if it had hit an
invisible shield.

A large pipe detaches and comes flying at Luke. He deflects it.
Sparking wires pull out of the wall and begin to whip at the youth.
Small tools and equipment come flying at him. Bombardment from all
sides, Luke does his best to deflect everything, but soon he is
bloodied and bruised. Finally, one machine glances off his and goes
flying out the large window. A fierce wind blows into the room,
unmoving, stands the dark, rocklike figure of Vader.

A piece of machinery hits Luke and he is knocked out of the window.

Vader displays superior telekinesis and power to Luke by throwing projectiles with enough precision and power that Luke is only able to block a few and is unable to, for example, deflect them back at Vader. It's a pretty clear indicator that if Vader had wanted to, he could quite clearly have broken Luke's barrier.

 That point is basically a goalpost switch.

I'm not shifting the goalposts. You'd only think that if you skimmed and couldn't be bothered to read it properly. 



Stop jumping and accept Kenobi is > Vader in Force Power.

Tell you what: show me some actual sources (preferably primary ones) outside of some sketchy number system which makes very little sense, then I'll consider it.


Last edited by BreakofDawn on September 16th 2019, 5:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
King Joker
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September 16th 2019, 5:30 pm
BreakofDawn wrote:Sorry, I'm not trying to say Vader was casual during the entire fight, especially since part of my argument is about how Vader was tense and mentally hindered by his anger and fear, lol. What I'm trying to say by "casually" is that Vader was easily able to block Ben's best attacks and counter with strikes that almost killed Ben. The entire point of the post is to debunk the whole idea that Ben stalemated Vader or that Ben is somehow much more powerful than Vader despite all indications in the film, script, novel and other related depictions of the fight, not that Vader was barely trying in the fight. I'll be exploring all of it in a lot more detail than a few hurried points and quotes soon.

Right, I wasn't trying to say you were claiming Vader had a casual disposition during the entire fight (I should have been more clear on that point), rather that in certain instances during the fight (in the aforementioned quotes I mentioned that you provided) you claimed that Vader acted casually when the quotes you cited suggested no such thing. For example, you claimed Vader blocked Kenobi's strikes "casually" in the following quotes:

1. "Executing a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape. Vader blocked the stab with equal speed, riposting with a counterslash that Kenobi barely parried."

2. "Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked by a lightning movement of the Sith."

But nowhere in those quotes suggest ease in Vader's moves.

I'm only pointing this out because I think it dilutes your overall argument. I agree with your general point.
BreakofDawn
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September 16th 2019, 5:41 pm
Right, I wasn't trying to say you were claiming Vader had a casual disposition during the entire fight (I should have been more clear on that point), rather that in certain instances during the fight (in the aforementioned quotes I mentioned that you provided) you claimed that Vader acted casually when the quotes you cited suggested no such thing. For example, you claimed Vader blocked Kenobi's strikes "casually" in the following quotes:

1. "Executing a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape. Vader blocked the stab with equal speed, riposting with a counterslash that Kenobi barely parried."

2. "Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked by a lightning movement of the Sith."

But nowhere in those quotes suggest ease in Vader's moves.

I'm only pointing this out because I think it dilutes your overall argument. I agree with your general point.

I said that because the effort it required varies. For example: 


Obi-Wan moved fast, lunging at Vader with his weapon, but the Dark Lord blocked the attack with ease.

- Rise and Fall of Darth Vader


"Only a master of evil, Darth." With that, Obi-Wan stepped in and cut.
Vader blocked the attack easily.

- Star Wars: Death Star

There's also the fact that Ben's first strike is met with equal speed by Vader, who upon going on the offensive nearly kills Ben with a riposte that he "barely parried." 


Vader blocked the stab with equal speed, riposting with a counterslash that Kenobi barely parried.

There are more but I'm saving them for my expanded blog on this.
DarthAnt66
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September 16th 2019, 5:42 pm
Ben got better / revealed more of himself as the fight progressed.
BreakofDawn
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September 16th 2019, 5:45 pm
@DarthAnt66 When he was constantly being forced back or before that? Because him being pushed back began pretty early into the fight.
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September 16th 2019, 5:53 pm
@Breakofdawn:  Here's my notes on the fight, with the "easily" and "barely" parts highlighted.

---

Obi-Wan attempts to use dun moch against Vader then quickly attacks, but Vader blocks the attack “easily.” Obi-Wan continues with a series of attacks, but Vader likewise blocks them all. Vader believes Obi-Wan’s attempting to unsettle him by not being defensive like usual, so Vader ramps up his speed and begins to attack. Obi-Wan’s “barely” blocks Vader’s first strike, but then seemingly blocks Vader’s subsequent attacks with greater ease as he manages to shift himself around Vader. Vader and Obi-Wan then “trade blows” for a period of time.

Obi-Wan and Vader fall in a blade-lock which lasts “for a few moments,” in which both “powerful warriors stand motionless, like two titans out of some lost time!” Vader eventually “shoves hard,” breaks the clash, and Obi-Wan retreats a step. Vader and Obi-Wan exchange another six attacks. Vader believes Obi-Wan’s powers are waning and that he’s about to win. However, Obi-Wan surprises Vader with a series of quick and expert strikes that seemingly forces Vader to rethink his assessment - so much so that Vader notes that, if he diverts his attention for a moment to shoo away incoming stormtroopers, “Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.”

Vader hears Luke call out “Ben?” but dares not look, whereas Obi-Wan diverts his attention and gazes in Luke’s direction. Vader “brings down his lightsaber” on the distracted Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan “somehow” manages both to block the attack and shift their relative positions entirely. Obi-Wan then smiles, raises his lightsaber, and allows Vader to strike him down.

---

You can chalk up Ben's improved performance as the fight goes on as dusting off the rust.
The Adventurous Jedi
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September 16th 2019, 5:58 pm
@BreakofDawn

I don't think you're following. I'm saying that he didn't try. At all. Literally, not a single Force attempt, despite it being his only arguable advantage against Vader. By contrast, Vader's attempt throughout his fight with Luke - to assess his abilities - involved him using the Force to test Luke's raw power and ability to fight, whereby Luke managed to hold up against a couple of the projectiles before quickly being overwhelmed. He wasn't trying to directly dominate him with the Force at all and still indirectly overpowered him with the Force, lol. The ESB script even has Luke unable to block the projectiles with the Force beyond the first one:

So...? He threw objects at him but as KoB pointed out there was nothing for Ben to hurl at Vader. In terms of their respective Force Powers, nothing here refutes anything I said; that being that there's no evidence Ben is superior to the point where he can use the Force offensively against Vader. Keep in mind Sidious was far more powerful than Maul yet was unable to breach his direct barrier without abusing Maul's own technical failures.

Vader displays superior telekinesis and power to Luke by throwing projectiles with enough precision and power that Luke is only able to block a few and is unable to, for example, deflect them back at Vader. It's a pretty clear indicator that if Vader had wanted to, he could quite clearly have broken Luke's barrier.

You haven't established why Vader should be able to break Luke's barrier based on the above feat, you've just claimed that he should be able to.

I'm not shifting the goalposts. You'd only think that if you skimmed and couldn't be bothered to read it properly.

You switched from: "He should have thrown objects at Vader," to "He should have breached Vader's Force Barrier if he were superior," after your first point was refuted. In my mind, that's a goalpost switch.

Tell you what: show me some actual sources (preferably primary ones) outside of some sketchy number system which makes very little sense, then I'll consider it.

I don't need to, the numbers are enough. Regardless they are endorsed by other sources.
BreakofDawn
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September 16th 2019, 6:02 pm
Will get back to these tomorrow. Got stuff to do.
The Adventurous Jedi
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September 16th 2019, 6:05 pm
Will get back to these tomorrow.

Starting to sound like me lol.

How much effect would Count Dooku’s Lightning have on Darth Vader - Page 3 1076326320
BreakofDawn
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September 16th 2019, 6:23 pm
Comes with being British I guess.  How much effect would Count Dooku’s Lightning have on Darth Vader - Page 3 815462187
The Ellimist
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September 21st 2019, 5:30 am
NotAA3 wrote:
The Ellimist wrote:

Not convinced exhausted Starkiller's lightning is beyond Dooku's, but feel free to prove me wrong.

I think the exhaustion angle is highly overplayed and, with all due respect, comes from people just reading Ant's arguments on the matter but not the actual text. After destroying the clones, Starkiller does note that he is really exhausted for about two sentences, and is consciously regaining his energy. After "slowly" realizing that the clones were dead, he has a conversation with Vader, then chooses to jump up a gauntlet of platforms to attack him (and Vader isn't trying to capitalize on Starkiller's exhaustion at all, even though apparently Starkiller could've ragdolled him if he recovered or something). His exhaustion is never mentioned again, nor is it brought up in any other source.

I can understand if you think the exhaustion is significant enough to put a gap between Starkiller and TFUII Vader, but Starkiller charges and shoots his lightning at an unguarded Vader for like thirty seconds. Then if you take the dark side alternative ending seriously, Vader gets up nonchalantly afterwards. Indeed, during the fight he had been goading Starkiller into using his anger and trying to strike him down! I don't see a standard lightning attack from Dooku being able that.

The revisionist notion that Vader in TFU and TFUII was secretly fodder territory for Galen is laughable if you play the game or read the novelizations.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
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September 21st 2019, 6:35 am
Elm's arguing for Starkiller V Vader again? Nice, I'll go grab my sweets for the entertainment that's bound to follow.
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