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Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle

September 7th 2019, 5:16 am
NotAA3 wrote:Yeah, the two aren't mutually exclusive. The Revan novel also states they agreed to the ritual and came to Nathema. The only difference, of course, is that TOR Encyclopedia leaves out the TP domination but omission isn't contradiction. As for the feat itself I think you can make a case for its legitimacy either way, as Nyriss states that she can't 100% guarantee her story is true, though given that she gets all of the other details right there is a likelihood she is correct.

Nah, all three primary accounts of the story are clearly contradictory to one another. The novel tells us Vitiate was waiting on Nathema the entire time while he implored Sith all over the Empire to join him there. Once they were present, he allegedly mindraped them, and forced them to participate in the ritual.

“And the Sith Lords were driven by fear. Many thought the Jedi would soon wipe them all out. They were desperate for anything they could use as a weapon against the servants of the light side. Lord Vitiate played upon these fears, convincing those who answered his call to set aside their suspicions of him and of one another to join in a single glorious cause.

“Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate’s control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims.


Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan

The people of Nathema had spent their last days in a terrified and desperate state. They had known it was only a matter of time until the Jedi found them, and the ruler of Nathema—a Sith named Lord Vitiate—had preyed upon his people’s fear. Transcripts of Vitiate’s public speeches were filled with graphic warnings of what the Jedi would do once they arrived. Records confirmed that his speeches had been broadcast and transmitted across the whole of the Empire, sowing the seeds of terror among all the Sith worlds. Vitiate had consciously and carefully driven the people into a state of panic, knowing they would blindly follow anyone who offered hope.

Vitiate was quick to fulfill that role, and he put out a call for all the other surviving Dark Lords to join him on Nathema in a ritual that he promised would lead the Sith to salvation.


Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan

Nyriss also notes there being only a hundred Sith as opposed to the 8000-figure later sources throw around. So even if we believe Nyriss' recounting, the feat's far less impressive than what's being purported (Lord Kaan tier). Over the years, people have cherry-picked the most impressive tidbits of the varying accounts to assemble together a fan-fic version that wanks Vitiate the most when no source outright states, in those words, that he "mentally dominated 8000 of the most powerful Sith Lords."

“Perhaps.” Nyriss shrugged. “Some refused to answer his call. But many more came. After all, what could one man do against a hundred Sith Lords? Remember, he was not the Emperor back then. He was merely Lord Vitiate, ruler of a single planet of no particular importance. He hadn’t fought in any battles of note or achieved any great victories or conquests beyond his homeworld. He had the reputation of a scholar, not a warrior.

Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan

And finally, she admits she can't confirm the accuracy of the tale. The only reason she believes it is because she was scared by the Emperor when meeting him in person, which just means she's irrationally more prone to believe horror stories about the guy. Although it's possible that she came to the same conclusion as Scourge when hearing the multiplicity in the Emperor's voice, this would only validate the idea he assimilated the souls of the Sith Lords, not that he mentally enslaved them.

“This sounds more like a legend than a history,” Scourge remarked.

“I cannot guarantee the truth of this story,” Nyriss admitted. “Those who witnessed the events no longer live to verify them. But if you had ever met the Emperor in person, you would not be so hesitant to accept the tale as fact.”


Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan

The Old Republic Encyclopedia states that the Sith "agreed to partake in a ritual" after they had already gathered on Mediraas. That's an explicit contradiction with Nyriss' account: she alleges that he forced them into it by dominating their wills after they arrived on Medriaas, but the Encyclopedia claims they consensually participated in it, with no mention of any mental subjugation.

Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Vitiat10

The codex states that Vitiate first went to Korriban, and then led the extant Sith from there to Medriaas, which contradicts the novel in that he was waiting on Medriaas the whole time. No mention of mind-rape and the ritual is even "celebrated among Imperial historians as a rare and amazing coming together of Sith for the good of the Empire," which goes against the idea they were all mind-raped against their consent - if they agreed to it "for the good of the Empire," why the need to mentally enslave them? It also begs the question that if Vitiate could have, on the spot, "dominated their minds, crushed their resistance," "turned them into slaves to his will," with no prep, of his own power, as Nyriss describes, why the need to "lure," "convince," or "bid" them back to Nathema ("tempt (a person or animal) to do something or to go somewhere, especially by offering some form of reward"; "persuade (someone) to do something"; "offer (a certain price) for something, especially at an auction"), as other sources state happened, if he was present on Korriban with them?

Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Vitiat11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU2_M0CUhtU&t=19m53s

All in all, I see little reason to believe the veracity of this feat. The only person who claims it happened also says that there were only a hundred Sith, and admits she can't verify the truth of the tale. One source expressly denies the mental domination ever occurring, and another strongly alludes to the idea it didn't happen and contradicts Nyriss' version in other key places as well.
Shioz
Shioz

Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle

September 8th 2019, 2:09 am
Sidious with ease.
DoA
DoA

Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle

September 8th 2019, 5:20 am
KingofBlades wrote:
DoA wrote:
Azronger wrote:
IdrisianGraecus wrote:What does Sidious have in TP that Valk doesn’t?

Influencing an entire empire for years and potentially decades.
Consisting of quintillions   Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 228124001
And yet the clone army of the republic numbered in the millions. Ah GL what were you thinking
The CIS had a fighting force numbering in the quintillions. After the Republic was transformed into the Empire, it was stated to have gone through the largest military buildup in galactic history and that the Galactic Empire also had more fighters than any other military in galactic history.
The Ellimist
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Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle

September 8th 2019, 5:33 am
I'm not sure Sidious was literally TP'ing the entire Imperial Starfleet 24/7 - I think he was TP'ing the fleet over Endor, and probably select parts of it, but it's pretty clear from the various PoV sources that ordinary imperials in the military weren't being mind controlled or even substantially influenced all the time. A few vague quotes that could refer to many things in various contexts aren't enough to make that extraordinary leap. (If he could do that, why didn't he just TP the Rebels?)

That being said, he still has some insane feats:

  • Mind-wiping memory of the Lusankya super star destroyer being buried in Coruscant, which he'd have to do on the spot or else the information would travel way too quickly (did he TP millions? billions? trillions?).
  • Mentally dominating 20 billion people on Byss over the course of 25 years. They seem to have been bound permanently to his will, though Palpatine had the help of his adepts (not sure if they would've played a major role though, as many sources don't bother to mention them in the feat).
  • TP'ing Luke after defeating him in their first duel in DE.
  • Detecting a treacherous thought from ESB Vader and bringing him to his knees from across the galaxy.
  • Mentally influencing vast portions of the Imperial fleet, including the fleet over Endor, to the point where they went insane without him.

Quite honestly, just in terms of the quality of the feats themselves it's difficult to say that Valkorion has better ones, with the possible exception of Ziost. I suppose Ziost was done more quickly than Byss, but Byss was sustained over a long period of time and Palpatine mind-wiped people for the Lusankya. You could argue that Valkorion is more consistently portrayed as a dominant telepath, at least in a combat scenario, but when Palpatine actually uses his telepathy it's on a comparable level, maybe even higher. I'm not so sure.
Master Azronger
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Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle

September 8th 2019, 7:33 am
The Ellimist wrote:I'm not sure Sidious was literally TP'ing the entire Imperial Starfleet 24/7 - I think he was TP'ing the fleet over Endor, and probably select parts of it, but it's pretty clear from the various PoV sources that ordinary imperials in the military weren't being mind controlled or even substantially influenced all the time. A few vague quotes that could refer to many things in various contexts aren't enough to make that extraordinary leap. (If he could do that, why didn't he just TP the Rebels?)

That being said, he still has some insane feats:

  • Mind-wiping memory of the Lusankya super star destroyer being buried in Coruscant, which he'd have to do on the spot or else the information would travel way too quickly (did he TP millions? billions? trillions?).
  • Mentally dominating 20 billion people on Byss over the course of 25 years. They seem to have been bound permanently to his will, though Palpatine had the help of his adepts (not sure if they would've played a major role though, as many sources don't bother to mention them in the feat).
  • TP'ing Luke after defeating him in their first duel in DE.
  • Detecting a treacherous thought from ESB Vader and bringing him to his knees from across the galaxy.
  • Mentally influencing vast portions of the Imperial fleet, including the fleet over Endor, to the point where they went insane without him.

Quite honestly, just in terms of the quality of the feats themselves it's difficult to say that Valkorion has better ones, with the possible exception of Ziost. I suppose Ziost was done more quickly than Byss, but Byss was sustained over a long period of time and Palpatine mind-wiped people for the Lusankya. You could argue that Valkorion is more consistently portrayed as a dominant telepath, at least in a combat scenario, but when Palpatine actually uses his telepathy it's on a comparable level, maybe even higher. I'm not so sure.

No one's suggesting he was ceaselessly keeping everyone telepathically subservient, but numerous sources note his Endor-level influence (where the soldiers couldn't function without him) was pervasive in the whole Empire, not just Endor.

Also, not convinced on Ziost. In terms of numbers, I don't think it's above any of Sheev's large-scale feats.
The Ellimist
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September 8th 2019, 7:36 am
What sources? The ones I've seen frankly don't hold up to scrutiny and reasonable interpretation.
Master Azronger
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September 8th 2019, 7:49 am
The Ellimist wrote:What sources? The ones I've seen frankly don't hold up to scrutiny and reasonable interpretation.

There are many more that talk about his Empire-wide influence in added detail, but these are the two quotes that most clearly state the Emperor was "the cohesive force of the Empire" and his death left the dark side "diffused and undirected," leaving the Imperials with "nothing but confusion, desperation, and damp fear." Ergo, what happened on Endor also happened all over the Empire.

For the first time, the Death Star rocked. The collision with the exploding Destroyer was only the beginning, leading to various systems breakdowns, which led to reactor meltdowns, which led to personnel panic, abandonment of posts, further malfunctions, and general chaos.

Smoke was everywhere, substantial rumblings came from all directions at once, people were running and shouting. Electrical fires, steam explosions, cabin depressurizations, disruption of chain-of-command. Added to this, the continued bombardments by Rebel cruisers—smelling fear in the enemy—merely heightened the sense of hysteria that was already pervasive.

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this nondirected—this was simply where it led.

Confusion.

Desperation.

Damp fear.


Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi novelization

Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Empero12
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
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September 8th 2019, 7:56 am
Palpatine may have been the "cohesive force" that held the Empire together, but that doesn't translate into galactic scale TP; it could easily mean that he was at the center of the Empire's power structure in combination with using the dark side strategically. While the following sentences do talk about the consequences of his death, they are in the context of the battle over Endor. It isn't necessarily the case that the mentioning of Palpatine's importance to the Empire necessitates that the subsequent consequences are galaxy-wide; e.g. "Yoda, who had trained so many of the Jedi Order, had died. Obi Wan was devastated" wouldn't mean that Obi Wan was the same as the entire Jedi Order. It may be a possible interpretation, but it's also a pretty extraordinary one, and thus would require more concrete evidence IMHO than a very hyper-semantical interpretation of a few quotes.
Master Azronger
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September 8th 2019, 12:14 pm
The Ellimist wrote:Palpatine may have been the "cohesive force" that held the Empire together, but that doesn't translate into galactic scale TP; it could easily mean that he was at the center of the Empire's power structure in combination with using the dark side strategically. While the following sentences do talk about the consequences of his death, they are in the context of the battle over Endor. It isn't necessarily the case that the mentioning of Palpatine's importance to the Empire necessitates that the subsequent consequences are galaxy-wide; e.g. "Yoda, who had trained so many of the Jedi Order, had died. Obi Wan was devastated" wouldn't mean that Obi Wan was the same as the entire Jedi Order. It may be a possible interpretation, but it's also a pretty extraordinary one, and thus would require more concrete evidence IMHO than a very hyper-semantical interpretation of a few quotes.

Hmm, fair enough. In retrospect, you could reasonably say "the Rebels were forced to flee Cloud City in The Empire Strikes Back" without it referring to the entire Rebel Alliance. Similarly, the Emperor being the cohesive force of the Empire in those quotes may just refer to the Imperials stationed on Endor.

However, I have other quotes that talk about his galactic dark side influence. They don't confirm my initial assertion that the Emperor was dominating the whole fleet, but they do clearly state the Empire as a whole can't function without Palpatine's dark side influence. Considering the Empire is a vast galactic organization with millions of planets, high-ranking officers, and, indeed, quintillions of troops, it's still a monumental feat for Palpatine.

Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Palpat11

Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Sheev%2527s%2BForce%2Buse%2Bin%2Bthe%2BGE

Darth Sidious vs. Valkorion - TP Battle - Page 2 Dark_w10
The Adventurous Jedi
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September 8th 2019, 2:15 pm
@Azronger Sorry, I've been away for most of the weekend, so I haven't been able to get back to you. Rest assured that you will receive a response sometime next week.
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