Suspect Insight Forums

Go down
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:52 pm
Possibly stops at 7, if not a hard stop at 8. He stands zero chance whatsoever at clearing.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:21 pm
@Deronn_Solo wrote:Possibly stops at 7, if not a hard stop at 8. He stands zero chance whatsoever at clearing.
Would you mind explaining what feats does RotS Sidious have on the ziost drain's level?
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:41 pm
Unbalancing the Force together with Plagueis -- decades before reaching his prime and substantial growth. It was a joint feat, but the showing vastly supersedes draining a planet which is a speck in comparison with the universe binding energy field that is the Force itself. 


Or, I can easily point to Sidious being canonically superior to planet killers like Darth Nihilus as of TPM - before increasing his power substantially after Plagueis death and beyond. I can also bring up Sidious own passive drain of the Byss populace which he accomplished a few months after RoTS, so it shouldn't be out of range during that time period at all.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:49 pm
It took joint meditating for months before that happened. That is in no way indicative of what sheev can do by himself at a moments notice. And iirc Revan was stated to imbalance the force on a galactic scale with his mere presence.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:32 am
Yes, I've already admitted as such regarding the detail. The fact of the matter is, unbalancing a fundamental force that spands billions of light years is soooo much better than planet razing destruction, it migitates the effort and prep. Much more effort for a far, far, far greater feat. It's like one guy lifting 1,000 pounds by himself and the other getting help and prep to lift  the Golden Gate Bridge-- even if we divide the feat by 1/1,000,000, it is still superior.

Revan was causing a galaxy wide disturbance -- a far cry from bolstering the dark side, while simultaneously vitiating every light side user in the galaxy.

Aside from Ziost -- what else does Revan have? Sidious physical showings and martial capabilities dwarf Revan, who, is honestly below even Darth Maul via showings.


Last edited by Deronn_Solo on Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:41 am; edited 1 time in total
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:39 am
He would've stomped the strike team without light Revan's intervention.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:42 am
You do realise that a planet-tier void in the Force, which was basically a massive scale reality warp, is a living Force feat. Not a cosmic feat?

Even Malak caused the dark side to cloud so strongly that Bastila and Revan failed to sense the disturbance of the Force that was the mass destruction of the Dantooine Jedi Enclave. The Triumvirate caused even worse dark side power than that.

But if you're going to pass off the unbalance feat as applicable to Sidious. I'd remind you that Vitiate could've replicated the galaxy-draining Dark Ritual upon his return and that only required one mass death event in one city on Corellia as aid.

That was only pre-Ziost Tenebrae, post-Ziost Tenebrae was far more powerful.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:45 am
@KingofBlades wrote:He would've stomped the strike team without light Revan's intervention.
Impressive, but something Sidious could easily replicate. Given his utter domination of the Maul bro's and annihilation of the B-team with Windu with physical ability alone.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Moderator
Moderator

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:18 am
@KingofBlades wrote:He shows parity with swtor Vitiate

How so? And as a Sith, wouldn't SWTOR Vitiate fall under RotS Sidious?

who scales considerably above the ziost drain.

How so?

Scaling above a feat on that scale easily puts him at Yoda/Sidious level

How so?

@KingofBlades wrote:@Hellfireunit Valk after restoring a bit of his power by the deaths of thousands on ziost death waved the whole planet without a ritual.

How do you know he doesn't use a ritual? The Outlander refers to Ziost as something "similar to" Nathema. Vitiate uses a ritual for nearly everything, he happened to have used a ritual in his last planetary feat, and Ziost displays overlapping effects with Nathema. Why would he wait until he had enough power to do it on his own, even if he could, when he could use a ritual with less power?

If it was just a massive Force drain / use of raw power, why were there weird, spooky effects like color changes?

And if we're being honest RotS sheev has shown nothing on the level of the ziost drain

He scales above Nihilus, and SWTOR Vitiate unless if Vitiate isn't a Sith.

What about unbalancing the Force?

It took joint meditating for months before that happened. That is in no way indicative of what sheev can do by himself at a moments notice.

The same could be said of Ziost; he does it over a period of time, draws on others' energies, may have used a ritual, etc.

And iirc Revan was stated to imbalance the force on a galactic scale with his mere presence.

There's no comparison between the description of Revan's cosmic impact and what Plagueis and Sidious did.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:46 am
The planetary destruction isn't the ritual, absorbing all of the death is the ritual. On Nathema he used Zildrog to nuke the surface whilst he and his 8,000 Happy Tree Friends used a ritual and Tenebrae absorbed it all. On Ziost he personally killed everything with a death wave so he could absorb the death with a ritual.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:53 am
@The Ellimist wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:He shows parity with swtor Vitiate

How so? And as a Sith, wouldn't SWTOR Vitiate fall under RotS Sidious?

who scales considerably above the ziost drain.

How so?

Scaling above a feat on that scale easily puts him at Yoda/Sidious level

How so?

@KingofBlades wrote:@Hellfireunit Valk after restoring a bit of his power by the deaths of thousands on ziost death waved the whole planet without a ritual.

How do you know he doesn't use a ritual? The Outlander refers to Ziost as something "similar to" Nathema. Vitiate uses a ritual for nearly everything, he happened to have used a ritual in his last planetary feat, and Ziost displays overlapping effects with Nathema. Why would he wait until he had enough power to do it on his own, even if he could, when he could use a ritual with less power?

If it was just a massive Force drain / use of raw power, why were there weird, spooky effects like color changes?

And if we're being honest RotS sheev has shown nothing on the level of the ziost drain

He scales above Nihilus, and SWTOR Vitiate unless if Vitiate isn't a Sith.

What about unbalancing the Force?

It took joint meditating for months before that happened. That is in no way indicative of what sheev can do by himself at a moments notice.

The same could be said of Ziost; he does it over a period of time, draws on others' energies, may have used a ritual, etc.

And iirc Revan was stated to imbalance the force on a galactic scale with his mere presence.

There's no comparison between the description of Revan's cosmic impact and what Plagueis and Sidious did.
I will be citing "the creation of monsters" portion of darth ant's post from his debate with azronger. It explains why Revan is ~physical swtor vitiate and why he scales above the ziost drain. It explains this far better than I could.

Vitiate, as of the vanilla The Old Republic, is exponentially more powerful than spirit Vitiate when he consumed Ziost. The discrepancy between incarnations are shown by two massive power gaps.

1. PHYSICAL VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> SPIRIT VITIATE (SWTOR)


CHAINED PHYSICAL VAYLIN > SPIRIT VALKORION: In Knights of the Eternal Throne Chapter 3, chained Vaylin directly overpowers spirit Valkorion’s time-stop [1] , to which the Outlander either responds, “Your daughter’s even stronger than you,” or, “Kill her now, Valkorion!” If the latter, Valkorion reveals, “Only you can strike her down” [2] , showing Vaylin’s beyond his domain. Instead, Valkorion directly back-peddles from her [3]  and, rather than subdue her with the Force, resorts to revealing and triggering her mental conditioning [4] .

UNCHAINED PHYSICAL VAYLIN >>> CHAINED PHYSICAL VAYLIN: Most of Vaylin’s power is suppressed through extensive mental conditioning. To break this, six superweapons fired upon her [5] . Initially, Vaylin is completely overwhelmed and agonized in a sphere of green energy [6] . As her conditioning cracks, doctors observe, "Her power is racing out of control” [7] , with her mere pulsations of power staggering [8]  and frightening [9]  spirit Valkorion. Once it shatters, Vaylin’s shown to be completely beyond [10]  - and even directly overpower [11]  - the influence of weaponry.

SPIRIT VALKORION >>> UNCHAINED SPIRIT VAYLIN: Upon becoming a spirit, unchained Vaylin’s power radically reduced from being far more powerful than spirit Valkorion to being casually telekinetically dominated by him [12] . Note Arcann explicitly confirmed Vaylin was not chained: “He will cage you again, unless you join us” [13] .

TL:DR: Unchained physical Vaylin >>> chained physical Vaylin > spirit Valkorion >>> unchained spirit Vaylin. Thus, there is an astronomical difference in power between physical bodies and spirits, demonstrating physical Vitiate is vastly more powerful than standard spirit Vitiate.

2. SPIRIT VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> SPIRIT VITIATE (NATHEMA)


THE RITUAL OF NATHEMA: The Nathema Conspiracyrecontextualized the Ritual of Nathema, completely differentiating it from the cataclysm of Ziost. The Gravestone, an Iokath superweapon with a Death Star-esque laser, fired on and razed Nathema. Simultaneously, Vitiate, through a ten day ritual with eight-thousand Sith Lords, “consumed the life energy of every being on his homeworld,” or, as described by Scourge, absorbed those life essences through the Force,” including the “millions” of inhabitants, the eight-thousand Sith Lords, and all fauna and flora of a “lust and vibrant world.”Further, Vitiate sucked dry the entirety of the planet’s cosmic Force - unnaturally amplified to “the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see.”

THE BATTLE OF YAVIN: After the failure of a galaxy-spanning ritual and the defeat of all his Voices, Vitiate’s spirit wasn’t just a weakened reflection of his normal self like unchained Vaylin’s - he was on “the brink of oblivion.”Vitiate could not possess a single body and was forced to go into slumber on Yavin. While Vitiate fed off the deaths of the Revanite crisis, he merely “gained power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive,” revealing that his spirit remained unnaturally weakened and that even thousands of casualties is a fraction of the fuel needed to restore him.

THE CATACLYSM OF ZIOST: When weakened spirit Vitiate moved to Ziost, he began to possess individuals, have them kill others, feed on the death, and expand in influence. However, Vitiate merely siphoned the death from a single city - New Adasta, per Lana Beniko, “Our former Emperor, however, has limited his involvement to the area around New Adasta - near you.” This renders it impossible Vitiate even remotely replenished his spirit with just the conflict in New Adasta when his full-powered spirit is tethered with the life essence of the entirety of Nathema.

3. CONCLUSION



Enlarge this image
Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 6543247-hhh

Vitiate on Ziost has to not just make up the gap between his weakened spirit and standard spirit, but also his standard spirit and his physical body, both of which are nigh-insurmountable and neither of which are compensated by New Adasta. Thus, a physical Vitiate can easily replicate and far surpass the cataclysm of Ziost, since his powers are far beyond the New Adasta-exclusive powers of weakened spirit Vitiate when he unleashed the death wave. Only after weakened spirit Vitiate consumes Ziost are his powers comparable to his standard spirit (consider: post-Ziost spirit Vitiate is roughly the same as spirit Valkorion) and, upon retaking Valkorion’s host body, comparable to his former self.

(Reminder: Regardless if you consider Vitiate's possessing and feeding across New Adasta as a ritual, the point is that, even after said "ritual," he's still colossally weaker than normal. There's nothing stating nor implying the death wave itself was created by a ritual. In the past, some have pointed to similarities with the Ritual of Nathema but, as already stated, the Gravestone cleansed all life there.)

B. REVAN (SWTOR) >>> VITIATE (ZIOST)


Revan’s directly in league with Vitiate as of the vanilla The Old Republic in Force power, as shown by both their physical fight in Revan and their prolonged war of wills.

1. VITIATE (NOVEL) ≈ REVAN (NOVEL)


Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan wrote:His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward. Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.

Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.

Revan approached within striking distance of Vitiate. The fact Vitiate charged up his power as Revan crossed the forty meter walkway and did not unleash it until the last possible instant, despite the obvious risk and his fatal character flaw even being fear of death, suggests he could not have moved Revan without an unnatural amount of energy. The Old Republic Encyclopedia, as quoted above, essentially confirms such, revealing Vitiate established the Voice to guard against further vulnerability after Revan came within striking distance of him; If Vitiate could have pushed Revan away at any moment, he would not have been described as vulnerable nor in need of protection. This demonstrates Revan and Vitiate are comparable.

Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan wrote:The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.

There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward. He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him.

Compare Vitiate and Revan’s respective telekinetic attacks. Both Revan and Vitiate were unprepared for their opposing attacks and did not have the time to actively defend themselves, but each still had passive Force shields. However, while Revan’s turned the potentially lethal attack harmless, Vitiate was still outright temporarily knocked out: “He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him.” Google the definition of “in a heap” - per Google, “(Of a person) with the body completely limp,” per Macmillan Dictionary, “If you fall or lie in a heap, you lie without moving after you have fallen,” per Collins Dictionary, “If someone collapses in a heap, they fall heavily and untidily and do not move,” per Cambridge Dictionary, “To fall down heavily and lie on the ground without moving,” etc.

While part of Vitiate’s power was focused on dominating Revan’s will, Revan likewise likely diverted a significant portion of his power to fend off Vitiate’s telepathic attack. Revan wouldn’t have left his mind simply unguarded - a mere brush of Vitiate’s mind collapsed Scourge to the floor - and, as established in the next section, Revan explicitly requires and expends Force power to resist Vitiate. Overall, a super-charged Vitiate’s telekinesis had little effect on Revan and was unable to maintain any form of control over Revan thereafter, whereas a burst of Revan’s strength literally rendered Vitiate temporarily completely limp. Had the physical distance between the two been closer, it’s highly possible Revan would have struck down Vitiate.

2. VITIATE (SWTOR) ≈ REVAN (SWTOR)


Revan demonstrably stayed in lock-step with any growth Vitiate achieved through siphoning Revan between Revan and the vanilla The Old Republic. Revan counteracted Vitiate’s leaching by draining Meetra Surik’s spirit. However, given Vitiate drained Revan through the Force link established between them, and Revan realized the link could go both ways, it is likely Revan later began to directly drain Vitiate and the Dread Masters given, by the time he’s freed, he’s shocked to discover Meetra’s yet to become one with the Force.

Only once Revan’s power finally wane at the end of the Cold War, three-hundred and seven years after the mental war began, does Meetra worry Vitiate will soon overwhelm him, stating, The darkness will consume all it touches. Stars will burn black, ashes raining on lifeless worlds. Everything ends. The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years. His strength will fail, and he will become the darkness.” Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years indicates a direct correlation between mental fortitude and Force strength. When Revan was close to or at full strength, Vitiate was unable to dominate him; He only begins to succeed as Revan's Force power begins to diminish.

According to Azronger’s own post, “It should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one’s ability to wield the Force.” Going off that idea, it’s nigh-impossible to not recognize Revan’s parity with Vitiate. In a direct contest of their wills across three centuries, Vitiate utterly failed to pry information from Revan’s mind or turn him into Darth Revan again - his two intended goals. To quote the disbelief of the protagonist, "The Emperor had three hundred years to break this man, and he never succumbed?" Eventually, Vitiate realized Revan was outright too strong to influence and, working simultaneously with the “incalculably powerful Dread Masters, attempted to capitalize on Revan’s past and split his consciousness in two: “That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together. / The Emperor split you apart, because you were strongest when you were together." However, even their combined might failed given the full split did not occur until the aftermath of the Foundry battle by Revan’s own prerogative. Sad!

(Clarification: It’s evident Vitiate didn’t plan to dominate Revan after the split - Revan the Returned has far greater willpower than Revan as of the mental war. Rather, Vitiate recognized a vengeance-filled Revan would inadvertently help him by resurrecting his spirit on Yavin 4, which has nothing to do with telepathic persuasion, as stated by Arlo Grennen, “Revan is coming. I vowed to do everything in my power to stop Revan, but he does not want me to. He chose this place, he knew this day would come, knew the very core of me, everything.”)

In contrast, Revan pulled “centuries of knowledge” from Vitiate (e.g. teleportation hax), subtly manipulated him into postponing a war he had planned for one-thousand years for another three-centuries, and, given the rapid development of events, presumably rather abruptly and forcefully persuaded Vitiate into initiating the Treaty of Coruscant. The final feat is enormously impressive given it shows Revan directly overriding Vitiate’s most intrinsic desires. Not only did the truce halt Vitiate’s meticulously planned galaxy ritual but, according to Meetra, Revan’s power continually pacified Vitiate for the following eleven years the treaty was in effect: “The prisoner holds the darkness at bay.” Given all this, it’s sheer mental gymnastics to argue Revan’s not comparably powerful to Vitiate . . . again, per your own words, “It should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one’s ability to wield the Force.”
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Moderator
Moderator

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:05 am
@KingofBlades wrote:
I will be citing "the creation of monsters" portion of darth ant's post from his debate with azronger. It explains why Revan is ~physical swtor vitiate and why he scales above the ziost drain. It explains this far better than I could.

Eh, I don't buy it. And it doesn't explain how Ziost > unbalancing the Force, scaling from Nihilus, etc. Let's see:

THE BATTLE OF YAVIN: After the failure of a galaxy-spanning ritual and the defeat of all his Voices, Vitiate’s spirit wasn’t just a weakened reflection of his normal self like unchained Vaylin’s - he was on “the brink of oblivion.”Vitiate could not possess a single body and was forced to go into slumber on Yavin. While Vitiate fed off the deaths of the Revanite crisis, he merely “gained power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive,” revealing that his spirit remained unnaturally weakened and that even thousands of casualties is a fraction of the fuel needed to restore him.

We don't know if a spirit getting the power of the former self is sufficient for revival. It's not just a matter of power - Exar Kun's spirit was more powerful than Corran Horn, but Corran Horn could do things as a physical being that Exar Kun could not. It could easily require a lump of extra "activation energy" to overcome the gap.

THE CATACLYSM OF ZIOST: When weakened spirit Vitiate moved to Ziost, he began to possess individuals, have them kill others, feed on the death, and expand in influence. However, Vitiate merely siphoned the death from a single city - New Adasta, per Lana Beniko, “Our former Emperor, however, has limited his involvement to the area around New Adasta - near you.” This renders it impossible Vitiate even remotely replenished his spirit with just the conflict in New Adasta when his full-powered spirit is tethered with the life essence of the entirety of Nathema.

Again, there's no reason to think that's how it works. Darth Bane revived himself by killing a random family whose Force energies couldn't have approached his own. Healing isn't necessarily a symmetrical process where Valkorion would need the exact power of Nathema to get back to his former power.

There's nothing stating nor implying the death wave itself was created by a ritual.

We have no idea what the death wave is, or how it works. It could be a ritual; there are similar surface-busting rituals, and Vitiate loves using rituals. It could be a technique he developed over a thousand years that wouldn't scale to Revan's power.

That being said, it's not unreasonable to assert that SWTOR Vitiate could pull off a Ziost under similar circumstances.

This demonstrates Revan and Vitiate are comparable.

LMFAO what? The fact that Vitiate can't instantly ragdoll Revan doesn't mean that Vitiate and Revan are "comparable". By that logic, Yoda and Dooku might be "comparable".

Compare Vitiate and Revan’s respective telekinetic attacks. Both Revan and Vitiate were unprepared for their opposing attacks and did not have the time to actively defend themselves, but each still had passive Force shields. However, while Revan’s turned the potentially lethal attack harmless, Vitiate was still outright temporarily knocked out: “He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him.” Google the definition of “in a heap” - per Google, “(Of a person) with the body completely limp,” per Macmillan Dictionary, “If you fall or lie in a heap, you lie without moving after you have fallen,” per Collins Dictionary, “If someone collapses in a heap, they fall heavily and untidily and do not move,” per Cambridge Dictionary, “To fall down heavily and lie on the ground without moving,” etc.

While part of Vitiate’s power was focused on dominating Revan’s will, Revan likewise likely diverted a significant portion of his power to fend off Vitiate’s telepathic attack. Revan wouldn’t have left his mind simply unguarded - a mere brush of Vitiate’s mind collapsed Scourge to the floor - and, as established in the next section, Revan explicitly requires and expends Force power to resist Vitiate. Overall, a super-charged Vitiate’s telekinesis had little effect on Revan and was unable to maintain any form of control over Revan thereafter, whereas a burst of Revan’s strength literally rendered Vitiate temporarily completely limp. Had the physical distance between the two been closer, it’s highly possible Revan would have struck down Vitiate.

This doesn't make much sense. Revan was prepared for Vitiate's telepathic attack - that was probably the single variable he was preparing most intently for - while Vitiate was utterly unprepared for Revan's own attack. There's no reason to think that Revan's prepared defense against Vitiate's telepathy weakened his telekinesis proportionally to Vitiate's lack of preparation weakening his own defenses (which might have been non-existent).

Analogy: they could be wrestling and Revan lands a surprise punch. That doesn't mean Revan is at a disadvantage with the surprise punch just because he's also wrestling - he still has the element of surprise.

This attempt to hyper-analyze that exchange, down to finding the dictionary definition of "heap", conveniently ignores the fact that Vitiate then proceeded to incapacitate Revan with a single attack. Going by Ant's same logic of offense and defense magically scaling proportionally, we should expect Revan's prep time in gathering his own defenses to cancel Vitiate's time in gathering his lightning. In either case, were the two combatants comparable, Vitiate would not have been able to overwhelm Revan and put him helpless on the floor with a single attack.

According to Azronger’s own post, “It should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one’s ability to wield the Force.” Going off that idea,

I feel no need to "go off that idea". Willpower and Force power may be correlated, but in a case like this you cannot possibly draw a one to one conclusion that Revan battling wills with Vitiate means he's literally as powerful when insane willpower is part of Revan's character, when he had external aid, and when it usually takes a large gap for the attacker to telepathically overwhelm the defender. I guess that PoV character from the Death Star novel is as powerful than Vader because she resisted his TP?

The fact that everyone in SoR, including OOU sources, makes it clear that Revan would not stand a chance against the Emperor is evidence that this idea is nonsense.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:08 pm
If Vitiate was so far above Revan why was he unable to telepathically dominate Revan even when he was aided by the dreadmasters.
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:38 pm
Don’t forget that they had Revan for three centuries, and they were torturing and drugging him the whole time, while Revan managed to reverse Vitiate’s TP and stop him from attacking the republic.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:52 pm
Telepathic resistance isn't always correlated with ones Force abilities.

If so, how do you explain Leia, resisting the full might of  Vader's telepathy aboard the Death Star? Or are we gonna run with the assumption that politician Leia has parity with Vader, now? She could hardly hold a lightsaber up with TK in the Thrawn trilogy years later, lmao.

Edit: It also worth noting that Vader forcecibly ripped information from Luke's mind during the BoE, mid duel, but he was unable to do the same to Leia with all his power focused on the task.
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:04 pm
That’s an outlier...
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:08 pm
The same could be said about Revan, then, lmao.

I also recall Jacen resisting 'Thul in an instance, when even Luke Skywalker himself failed as well, but I could be misremembering. Or how about AotC Obi-Wan no selling Dooku's telepathic intrusion while getting shock totured.


Last edited by Deronn_Solo on Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:09 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:What does rots sheev have on the level of the ziost drain?

False equivalence. He'd scale off the Ziost drain if Vitiate had immediately gone from Yavin 4 to Ziost and then completely drained it, but he didn't. He grew considerably in power throughout the events of Ziost until he was actually powerful enough to perform the drain. Revan can't really be scaled off of that.
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:30 pm
KOTOR Revan has some ridiculous speeds, scaled off of SF Malak. Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 4511473-8949335928-mP6NW

He fights at roughly the same speed as a passing fighter, in combat. 

Revan matches said speed while horrendously weakened. He only grows stronger during SOR.
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
Level Four
Level Four

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:42 pm
Nice to see Elm cracking down on TOR supporters. Good rebuttals, as always.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:50 pm
@IdrisianGraecus wrote:KOTOR Revan has some ridiculous speeds, scaled off of SF Malak. Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 4511473-8949335928-mP6NW

He fights at roughly the same speed as a passing fighter, in combat. 

Revan matches said speed while horrendously weakened. He only grows stronger during SOR.
What is Malak doing here, that makes it so impressive from a speed standpoint?
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:12 pm
@Deronn_Solo wrote:The same could be said about Revan, then, lmao.

I also recall Jacen resisting 'Thul in an instance, when even Luke Skywalker himself failed as well, but I could be misremembering. Or how about AotC Obi-Wan no selling Dooku's telepathic intrusion while getting shock totured.

Actually Dooku successfully penetrated Kenobi's psyche and ripped information from him IIRC.
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:22 pm
@Deronn_Solo wrote:
@IdrisianGraecus wrote:KOTOR Revan has some ridiculous speeds, scaled off of SF Malak. Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 4511473-8949335928-mP6NW

He fights at roughly the same speed as a passing fighter, in combat. 

Revan matches said speed while horrendously weakened. He only grows stronger during SOR.
What is Malak doing here, that makes it so impressive from a speed standpoint?
Oh, shit, wrong GIF.

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 4511478-8168516631-mLeP8
If you look closely, you'll see a fighter flying in the background, meaning that Malak does his whole flourish (translating to combat speed), faster than the time it takes a fighter to fly that far.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:43 pm
@Azronger wrote:
@Deronn_Solo wrote:The same could be said about Revan, then, lmao.

I also recall Jacen resisting 'Thul in an instance, when even Luke Skywalker himself failed as well, but I could be misremembering. Or how about AotC Obi-Wan no selling Dooku's telepathic intrusion while getting shock totured.

Actually Dooku successfully penetrated Kenobi's psyche and ripped information from him IIRC.
Yeah, you're right. Re-read the passage again and Dooku was indeed  successfully. If it wasn't for the electrocution tho, I could have seem Obi-Wan resisting the Coun . Tbh
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

on Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:14 pm
Most examples of attempting telepathic domination occur in very short time intervals. Vitiate tried and failed for 300 years to telepathically dominate Revan. Such a feat should be near impossible to do if Revan was far weaker than Vitiate. In the words of Malgus, "The Emperor had three hundred years to break this man, and he never succumbed?"
Sponsored content

Revan runs the PT gauntlet - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan runs the PT gauntlet

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum