on August 21st 2019, 7:56 am
The combatants will fight in-character, with morals on, and are at their peak combative state bar external amps or other circumstantial power boosts. They will start 300 meters away from each other on open grass fields. Victory necessitates permanently killing or destroying the physical body of the opponent.
There is no deadline for creating posts or concluding the debate. While it's subject to change, I'll use The Tyrannical Ten post guidelines to give the debate some structure (I doubt we will need as many characters but for all we know we might make 5 posts each):
The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher.
I'd like to encourage ahead of time that people not post needless commentary in the thread. If we can keep all if not most of the debate posts on the first page that would be great. I will be posting an opener for Cade.
When we are both happy the debate is finished I will open it up to a public vote to receive feedback.
on August 21st 2019, 8:21 am
- IdrisianGraecusLevel One
on August 21st 2019, 8:59 am
- HellfireUnitLevel One
on August 21st 2019, 10:32 am
Good luck ILS, I wish an enjoyable and civil debate for both of us.
- Word SaladLevel Two
on August 21st 2019, 11:20 am
on August 23rd 2019, 7:31 pm
Cade’s Power ProgressionLet’s first establish the floor of Cade’s power. Cade picks up and throws a large shuttle with such force that it smashes into Darth Talon and carries her so far into the distance the Jedi lose sight of her. We’re talking many hundreds of yards. As you can see from other panels, the ship is so huge it dwarves Cade, and it was a multi-passenger ship designed to provide high-end living quarters for at least a family of four.
https://imgur.com/a/HzJfG“My parents’ ship crashed here… when I was very small. Only my… twin brother and I survived.”
Personally, I don’t think Maul has many, if any, raw power feats which match or exceed this. If he does, I would be glad to see them.
At the time of this feat Cade was at his “weakest” according to Jan Duursema, the artist for Legacy.
https://www.cbr.com/ostrander-and-duursema-leave-their-legacy-on-star-wars/“That would be Cade. We’ve been through a lot with the guy, seen what motivates him-seen him at his weakest when dealing with addiction and at his strongest, when he decides to become a one man Sith-wrecking machine.”
Around this time period, Cade’s skills had atrophied to below the level he was at 7 years prior, as a 14 year old padawan. At that time he was only barely ready for the trials to become a Jedi Knight.
During the 7 years Cade spent wasting away, he developed an addiction to Death Sticks in an attempt to numb his connection to the Force, blocking out Force Visions and contact from Force Spirits.
Cade is noted to be suffering from trauma/scars that run beyond the physical.
https://imgur.com/a/qQW1PzS“Your scars go deep and are more than physical. They go into the core of your being.”
“There is no physical wound. I’m focusing on healing your whole being.”
”The anger in you is like a dagger in the Force, young Skywalker. My true talent is as a healer and I can sense something… broken in you. You are trying to escape something…
It is noted by several characters that Cade’s mainly boasting raw power. He is unfocused, controlled by his negative emotions and requires training to properly hone his skills.
https://imgur.com/a/bAWslay“But your ego -- your fear, your anger -- demanded you do it yourself.
Your fear, your anger demands it -- and makes you weak.”
“You have great raw power but it needs focus. It does no good to ignore it -- it is part of who you are.”
“Feel the dark power, my Lord! It is raw, but it could be trained, focused, honed…”
We can use Cade’s fights with Nihl to show the sharp increase in Cade’s power and skill after this point. This is due to the fact he received Sith training from the One Sith, including being placed in the Embrace of Pain (which was the key to unlocking both Darth Caedus and Darth Krayt’s hidden power).
First, Cade struggles with Nihl in a long fight he was on the losing end of, only able to punt Nihl from a cliff when a distraction presents itself.
After his Sith training, however, he dominates Nihl in an even shorter fight. He folds Nihl in half with a kick and when angered by a strike to the head, Cade responds by taking Nihl’s arm faster than he can react.
Also worth mentioning that Cade learned Shatterpoint here. The result of this was that Cade went from being incapable of healing Krayt due to the “red lines” punctuating the damage to his body being too “jumbled” for his Force Senses to interpret, to Cade perceiving these lines with perfect clarity, which would allow him to fully heal Krayt. Having Shatterpoint, which allows one to see the weakest vulnerabilities not only in objects, but in metaphysical aspects of combat and as well as into the future, can only help matters.
Even after the events of Vector, late into the Legacy series, Luke Skywalker’s spirit reiterates the extent to which Cade lacks focus, is controlled by his emotions and is mentally conflicted.
https://imgur.com/a/Gpvi1“You lack control of your emotions. Your pride, anger, and pain have made you lash out against everyone. You live in a constant state of revenge. You push everyone away.”
This all changes toward the end of the series, which we can demonstrate by looking at the progression of Cade’s healing powers with Dark Transfer...
Dark Transfer Scaling
Can heal people from the brink of death and cure himself of lethal doses of poison easily. But much harder is healing two people of dark side accelerated vong coral seeds (the same ones that ravage Krayt’s body) - he manages by drawing on the dark side, although with such difficulty Maladi thought he might die.
This is prior to him training with the Sith, knowing Shatterpoint or being able to heal Krayt, so it’s impressive he was able to do this at such an early stage.
However, even with the improvements to his healing powers, he similarly struggles to cure himself and Azyln of the rakghoul plague, which is said to be incurable. But through a mixture of dark and light side application, drawing on his love for Azyln, he manages to cure them. He is visibly tired afterwards.
But here is the real kicker: Darth Maladi implanted Deliah Blue with a Vong implant so insidious that it dwarves everything Cade had cured or could have cured before, which includes the dark-side accelerated coral seeds, Krayt’s coral seeds and the rakghoul plague. Even though he was on a powerful dark side nexus, and he was drawing harder on the dark side than he ever had at any point in the past, he was incapable of healing her without killing her. He is convinced to try drawing on the Light Side instead, which would be more difficult given the nexus. Nevertheless, he not only heals her by doing this, but he does so while maintaining a Force Bubble shielding himself and Deliah from Maladi’s lab exploding, which they were at the centre of.
https://imgur.com/a/gyXBf“I pushed myself as close to the edge as I can, but when I try to heal her, the pain just gets worse! I need to draw myself deeper into the darkness!”
“No. You must use the light side, Cade.”
“Not… strong… enough! More power in the dark side.”
“That is a lie. Trust the bonds you once felt within the Force when you were my apprentice. The bonds you shared with your father, who walked firmly in the light. They are still strong in you! The Force brought me here to this place, light years from where I was, to be here with you at this moment -- How can you not trust in the power of the light side above the dark? How can you not trust in the power of the Force?”
“Let the Force flow through me into you. That Sith poison… burns bad… hate and fire… burns bad… love burns brighter, Blue.”
“Did as you said, master -- tapped into the light side. Hate to say it -- but you were right.”
“Then come back to the Jedi, Cade. Become who you should be.”
“Can’t. I know now what I am. Not Jedi. Not Sith. I am what the Force has made me… the Sith’s worst nightmare. Time to make war.”
—Cade Skywalker and Wolf Sazen
Thus, we can in a very quantifiable way scale Cade from his earlier shuttle throwing feat. Cade struggled far more with the accelerated coral seeds and rakghoul plague than he did throwing the shuttle, meaning these are exertions of his power greater than throwing the shuttle. He then struggles even more with the final vong implant while nexus-amped, fails, and then overcomes that level of difficulty by drawing on a greater power in himself - the Light Side - despite the nexus. The below scaling chain measures the amount of Force power exerted at each interval, in descending order...
Cade’s nexus debuffed light-side healing > Healing Deliah Blue > Failing to heal Blue while nexus amped using full-effort dark transfer > Rakghoul plague w/ shatterpoint + Sith training > Accelerated coral seeds w/out shatterpoint + Sith training > throwing a huge shuttle hundreds of yards out of sight.
The point being, Cade’s power quite literally multiplied between the start of the series and when he healed Deliah. He sees some further notable improvements after this, specifically to his mastery of the Force and his level of focus in combat.
One-Man ArmyCade is said to be a one-man Sith wrecking machine going to war, now at his strongest, believing himself to be guided by the Force to kill Krayt - a staggering difference from when he tried to block the Force out with Death Sticks and refused to answer its call.
https://www.cbr.com/ostrander-and-duursema-leave-their-legacy-on-star-wars/“Lightsabers flash against sulfurious skies. Cade Skywalker’s personal war against the Sith has brought him here… searching…”
—Star Wars: Legacy #48
“Cade’s been on a tear ever since he learned this Isen was the one who posioned Dac. Got something else gnawing at him too, but he ain’t told me what. It’s like he wants to kill every Sith in the galaxy all by himself.”
“Look, Pateesas, much as we’ve shared -- you’re not Jedi. I was raised as one. Not sure I can make you understand what it feels like to touch the Force. I was in denial after Ossus, but since that day the Force has been driving me toward something. Then Krayt calls in the Force and brings it all home. Now I know what the Force has been preparing me to do -- Krayt is alive and I gotta kill him.”
“Cade’s been hunting down all the Sith that he can find.”
“That would be Cade. We’ve been through a lot with the guy, seen what motivates him-seen him at his weakest when dealing with addiction and at his strongest, when he decides to become a one man Sith-wrecking machine.”
He reconciles another major self-limitation and weakness when he heals his mother, who previously he hated, without using the dark side - something he could never do until now. He draws on the light side and in the process forgives her for what she’d done in the past. This kind of breakthrough did wonders for Cade’s clarity and focus - it’s obvious that he has healed himself of the “scars that go deep and are more than physical”, “to the very core of your being”.
https://imgur.com/a/U1Zms“Healing costs me. Gone to the dark side to do it every time but one. Healed Blue in the light side -- but I love Deliah, intensely -- and she loves me… I got no love for you. Get it? To heal you I’d have to impose my will on the Force -- go to the dark side -- and I won’t do that. Not for you.”
“One of the greatest lessons of the light side is forgiveness. Through it we find redemption. Your anger hurts you, Cade, more than it has ever hurt her. Let it go.”
“I forgive you, mom.”
—Cade Skywalker and Kol Skywalker
After this, during the War series, Cade is said to be more sober, focused and driven than ever. Darth Talon witnessed his “new mastery” of the Force, and that he was notably stronger than before - this would include when she fought him briefly during War, and since she was beaten by him in Vector.
“Cade Skywalker is more sober, focused and driven. The party is over. There is no more running and hiding. Destiny has bit him with sharp pointy teeth.”
“When Talon witnessed Cade’s new mastery of the Force, she retreated to warn Krayt, leading Cade directly to his goal…”
—Star Wars: Legacy—War #6
“Cade is… stronger… than he was.”
Cade’s always been very powerful, but as said before by several characters, he was held back by a lack of mastery and several mental and emotional hindrances. He is free of all of these issues now, a master of the Force with a single-minded focus to kill Krayt, drawing on the light side at will far more powerfully than he could with the dark even when nexus-amped.
The result? He went from throwing a shuttle at Talon and causing her no visible damage,
To losing to her in sparring…
To having issues with her on two occasions…
To completely destroying her with telekinesis, throttling her into Krayt’s throne room a bruised and battered mess.
The significance of this is twofold: one, Cade has never been so dominant over Talon, and frankly, it’s seldom we ever see anyone dominate a powerful Sith Lord like Talon to this extent. This isn’t just a case of him exploiting lapses in her defence to choke or throw her - he is beating her to a pulp despite her best efforts to defend and run. Two, this is the same Talon who shrugged off being hit by a shuttle at high speeds like it was nothing.
I don’t see what Maul has to compare to this. By this point in the story, Cade’s a master-level Force user who has seen huge strides in power, skill and mindset - combined with his remarkable Skywalker potential which is remarkable even among Skywalkers, given he is blessed with healing powers that dwarf anything Luke Skywalker had ever seen.
“I don’t understand you. You have a talent to heal others that is unlike any I’ve ever known."
His casual exertions of power are now in vast excess of throwing shuttles, and they also cause far more damage than a shuttle hitting you in the face at high speeds. I’m the first to point out how freakishly durable Maul is, but at the end of the day, I can’t see him standing up to Cade’s power. Sure, he might last longer than Talon, but Maul has never shown that he can destroy a Force user on Talon’s level this thoroughly, or that he can sustain a barrage of power on this level.
My main argument, overall, is that Cade will simply overpower Maul - physically and with the Force. There’s too big of a disparity in power here for Maul’s raw technical skills or experience to overcome. His fighting style is also quite poorly suited to fighting Cade. Favouring direct, extreme aggression in an attempt to smash down the opponent’s guard, he’s essentially making this a question of raw power. Cade has him beat there in spades.
There are two tertiary arguments which I think seal the deal for Cade. The first is his versatile selection of Force powers and the manner in which he uses them. Unlike Maul, Cade has been known to use Force Lightning - with such power that he destroyed the lightsaber defence of a powerful Sith Trooper and knocked him out cold. Sith Troopers being a breed of the strongest Force users Darth Krayt could find, trained to become the ultimate weapons.
Whether a blast like this finishes Maul in one shot or not doesn’t matter, it will still weaken him significantly. The opportunity to land this will come up if and when Maul lands a substantial blow on Cade - not enough to hurt him, but just enough to piss him off. This was what happened prior to Nihl being amputated and the Trooper being blasted.
As we already know, Cade has dark transfer and shatterpoint on his side, which has a range of possible uses. He can heal himself of lightsaber wounds in the midst of battle, make the weak parts of Maul’s body “explode” with Force energy, and also use Shatterpoint to exploit any gaps Maul presents.
https://imgur.com/a/hs0k8"I got this crazy healing ability. I can see the weak points in you like little broken red lines! I can see where you got wounded recently. Someone smack you during a sparring session? Bet it was Nihl. I could heal that hurt. Pour the Force into the place where the red lines intersect. Or—and here's a new idea—Maybe I could explode that point. Kill you. Interesting idea. Should we try?"
“The growths caused by the coral seeds the Vong implanted in me continue to grow. They threaten to consume me. In order to realize my vision… I need healing.”
“I can’t. When I heal, it’s like I’m seeing inside someone. I see these red lines. They guide me. In you -- there are too many -- and they’re all jumbled together. I can’t see how to separate them… yet.”
—Darth Krayt and Cade Skywalker
“Enough about me. Let’s talk about you. You and my Dad opened my eyes to my abilities. I see real clear now. I can see how sick and twisted up your insides are. I can see what fighting me is costing you. Those Vong… things in your innards. Nasty little critters want to take you over real bad. What do they feel like, huh? Something gnawing your guts? Clawing at you? Tell me - do the other Sith know how sick you really are? How weak? What would they do if they knew?”
“Second-- my father… yeah, you heard me right--showed me how to use my healing gift another way. I can see where a being is weak or broken. I can pour the Force into those “breaks” just enough to heal. Or… I can use it to tear you apart.”
“You think your stinkin’ Talisman’s so karking perfect, Muur? Well, it ain’t. I can see every flaw. All I have to do is pour the Force into the cracks…”
The final nail in the coffin is Maul’s cybernetic legs. These are vulnerable to lightning, which would cause them to spasm uncontrollably. They can also be destroyed with dark transfer as easily as the lightsaber proof Muur talisman. In a fight as close as this, small edges count, and this is yet another for Cade.
Bolts of energy ripped out from the Sith Lord’s fingers, tendrils of brilliant blue and purple that danced across Maul’s tattooed skin and ripped through his muscles, his organs. His mechanical legs convulsed, shorting out.
--Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
In summary:-- Cade’s lowest end power feats as a drug addict with the skills of a padawan are as good as Maul’s best. The gap in power is too substantial for Maul to bridge once Cade reaches the peak of his power, skills and mental state.
-- Cade telekinetically destroyed a powerful Sith Lord in Darth Talon - Maul has never dominated an opponent of this calibre to this extent. Cade literally hits harder than a flying shuttle.
-- Maul’s fighting style plays into Cade’s advantages nicely.
-- Cade employs a wider range of and more lethal powers than Maul, and can heal himself as the fight goes on.
-- Maul’s cybernetic legs, if compromised, result in an immediate loss - another edge for Cade.
Looking forward to your response!
- Word SaladLevel Two
on August 23rd 2019, 8:21 pm
- IdrisianGraecusLevel One
on August 23rd 2019, 8:36 pm
- HellfireUnitLevel One
on August 24th 2019, 2:11 am
Nice post Swords, I'll reply when I have time.
on August 24th 2019, 2:36 am
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on August 24th 2019, 2:37 am
That was actually pretty lackluster.
- DC77 (Reborn)Level Four
on August 24th 2019, 4:06 pm
on August 25th 2019, 11:18 am
Insanely good post.
- HellfireUnitLevel One
on August 27th 2019, 8:11 am
I will be returning to my hometown in a day or two, will be posting my opening in 1-2 weeks.
Edit: Officially started today (30.08.2019). Will be ready in 14th of September.
Edit: Officially started today (30.08.2019). Will be ready in 14th of September.
- PraxisLevel One
on October 11th 2019, 11:48 am
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