Suspect Insight Forums

Go down
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 9:39 am
@xolthol wrote:@MasterCilghal Really good post... TAEP
Thanks
IdrisianGraecus
IdrisianGraecus
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 10:45 am
Excellent post, got me leaning towards Vol after ILS had me 100% on team Wyyrlok.
Word Salad
Word Salad
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 11:43 am
Solid post.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 11:49 am
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on September 1st 2019, 8:05 pm
Briefly skimmed it, seems good.
ILS
ILS

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on October 31st 2019, 12:33 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Rebuttal:


Cilghal wrote:let’s not forget that Abeloth’s appereance was meant to provoke immense horror on her victims. For example, she has able to make some sith sabers commit suicide on one occasion simply by using illusions of her appearance (which, as confirmed in the essential reader’s companion, she also used against Vol): 

In your quote it's made clear that she wasn't just using an illusion, but forming constructs which were becoming more and more "solid", and they were enveloping the entire village, driving the Sith to the edge of a precipice. My reading was that they were committing suicide out of hopelessness rather than psychic compulsion but I may not have enough context on what the "White Current" is to be sure. 

In any case, this doesn't really help Vol as Wyyrlok himself can do this to Force users with an iota of his power:

"You have seen only an iota of the power I possess. It is nothing to enter your mind and feed you illusions. If I wished, I could make you see things that would cause you to claw out your own eyes."

https://imgur.com/a/dUdZF

Clawing out your own eyes is actually more difficult than throwing yourself from a cliff because instead of meeting a quick death you are deliberately mutilating one of the most sensitive parts of your body...


Cilghal wrote:As such, the mere fact that Vol was not paralyzed by the terror is a testament to his willpower. This is without taking into account the fact (that you seem not to take into account ) that he remained calm enough to come up with an effective strategy to take her down, which he certainly wouldn’t have been able to do in a situation of great tension.

I'm not sure what the latter part of your passage here is based on? Vol can operate in a fight while being terrified, they aren't mutually exclusive.


Cilghal wrote:And no, the novel does not mention him fearing to enter Abeloth’s mind, it simply states that he had to enter her mind in order to defeat her by using the force technique he had recently learned, mnemotheraphy. 
Yes it does. It says that it terrifies him to enter her mind, but that he has to do it regardless.


Vol had seen much violence, deceit, ugliness, and brutality in his day. He had seen, and sometimes committed, deeds such as evisceration of the body and torture of the mind through the power of the dark side. He had seen bodies explode into tiny fragments, watched powerfully intelligent people reduced to gibbering idiots when their minds were destroyed thought by thought.

And he shrank back in horror now at the monstrosity revealed to him.

Before him was a nightmare. Her hair was long, twining tendrils of hideousness, her eyes sunken and yet bright as tiny stars, her mouth widening, widening, until it split her face. She laughed, the tendrils reaching out both physically and in the Force.

"Silly Vol," she said. "To imagine, even for a moment, that anything human could even conceive of the vastness that is Abeloth, let alone trap me for your own tiny-minded purposes. Now you shall die, and your world shall become mine. I shall be unto them Protector and Destructor both, and there is nothing that you or any of your little friends can do to stop me."

The tendrils were on him now, slithering into his mouth, his ears, his nose, caressing in a strangely appealing manner even as he cringed back in loathing.

It was a dream, he knew, but it was more than a dream as well. And even in such an in-between place, Vol knew what he had to do. It terrified him, but the thought of being destroyed without a fight by this vile thing terrified him even worse.

He had to dive inside that mind.
--Fate of the Jedi: Ascension


Cilghal wrote:Furthermore, the ERC makes it clear that Vol’s willpower played a key role in Abeloth’s defeat: 

The use of words and expressions such as “keen mind”, “he is able to peer past Abeloth’s illusions “ , or “frustrated with Vol’s tenacity” do indicate that, for all intents and purposes, the grand lord can withstand , for a fair amount of time, a direct telepathic attack from Abeloth. 


You were correct until the final part. Vol did not withstand a "direct telepathic attack", as she was described only as "coyly teasing and caressing him" with her psychic tentacles up until the point in your ERC quote where it states she "blasts" him. What actually happened was Vol opened his mind to her (opposed to her breaking into it), and he in turn entered her mind which she "arrogantly" and "recklessly" left open to him, and ripped opened her festering psychic wounds.
He took a precious second to wrap the Force around him like a blanket, then unshielded his mind and opened it to Abeloth.

In her arrogant glee at the ambush she had performed, she was reckless. She surged forward, violating his mind, unaware that this was precisely what Vol wanted. She had given him entrance, and he wasted not a heartbeat in opening up to the ugliness that was within. Like a thief with the law on his heels, Vol plundered swiftly, with no care for delicacy or of discovery. And he found unexpected riches.

Anguish. Loss that ripped and tore at the heart of all that was Abeloth. Betrayal. Need-need!-for companionship, for love, for someone, anyone, anything, to adore her and to never, ever leave. To stay with her forever ...

-Don't leave me don't leave me don't leave me-

Something that was part of her, that she had loved with all that was in her, was gone, gone beyond finding again, and someone would pay, and she would be loved and idolized and worshipped, it was right, it was what should be, what would be-

He felt her astonishment, and then fury, and knew he was discovered. The tendrils were no longer coyly teasing and caressing. They were violent and brutal now, wrapping about his throat, invading his body. 

My reading is that Abeloth was reckless and left herself wide open for an extremely violent attack which leveraged a corrupted Memory-extracting technique which, even when used for its intended therapeutic purposes, can end up irreparably damaging ones mind:

Fate of the Jedi: Conviction wrote:"Very good, Master Skywalker. Now, ever so gently, we pull."

They did, together.

Luke had trained in many combat styles, against masters of many arts, and one thing he had learned early on was that the holodramas vastly exaggerated the ease with which a simple blade could be drawn from a body into which it had been thrust. Organic tissues tended to close over simple metal surfaces, preventing easy withdrawal. This was why primitive blades were often engineered with fullers, inaccurately referred to as blood grooves-they made that withdrawal a bit easier. This was why lightsabers and vibroblades were far superior to simple blades. Their very nature made them easy to withdraw instantaneously.

Pulling the toxic memories from Thei was like drawing out a simple blade. Despite her conscious wishes, her unconscious mind resisted their extraction. The very nature of memory resisted. The effort took a consistent application of Force by Luke and Taru, a slow, measured, implacable pull. Thought by thought, memory by memory, Luke and Taru persisted, and the set of horrifying images slowly released its hold on the young woman.

Luke could sense that it would be possible to apply more strength, less control, and wrench those memories free. He could not imagine the damage such an act would cause to Thei's psyche.

Abeloth, being subject to such a violent attack on her greatest psychic vulnerabilities, would be at an impaired ability to launch an attack on Vol himself. Indeed:
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:He resisted and went on the attack. There was a wound, visible as something black and bloody and infected, in what passed for a soul or a heart of this monster. And he went right for it.

No one loves you. You are ugly, and disgusting, and if you ever thought anyone did care for you, you were tricked and lied to, and they laughed at your gullibility.

A blast of Force anger buffeted him, but he rooted himself against it and continued.

You will never be loved. You will never be adored or cherished. Only feared and hated. And there is nothing you can do, no words you can speak, no one you can become to change that. Luke Skywalker was appalled at what you were, when he truly saw you. He follows you, not as a young gallant, oh no, but to kill you and put the universe out of its misery.

She convulsed, writhing in pain in the heart of the Force, reacting to his relentless attack on her wounded area as if he were ripping at an infected cut in the physical world. Her attack on him changed from a desire to harm to a desire to escape. Elation filled Vol. He only hoped he could survive long enough to deal the killing blow.

You live causing revulsion, you will die that way. You will die now-

He threw everything he had into the attack, slamming his Force self into the psychic, oozing wound as if he were punching a lacerated torso.

NO!

Her pain exploded and hurled him back, releasing him, but causing the most exquisite agony Vol had ever experienced to race through every part of his being.

Abeloth was the one under assault, not Vol. Vol's credit derives from his ability to resist the initial tentacles, and then the first blast of "Force anger", while he plunders her festering psychic wound, and then her final "explosion of pain" releases him from the psychic link Abeloth had created between them.


Cilghal wrote:This leads us into your next point. 
I think you are somewhat misinterpreting the text. Yes, I agree it was a traumatic experience, however:
1- the agony was caused by an exertion of force power from an  Abeloth hat had been just severy injured, as she herself notes later (link ), not the terror caused by Abeloth’s appereance.
I at no point said that Vol's agony was caused by Abeloth's appearance alone... I think you are countering that strawman because you yourself seemed to place some kind of importance on Abeloth's appearance (supposedly) causing Sith to kill themselves.

What I actually said was:
@ILS wrote:he even started weeping… yes… the Grand Lord of the Sith, near the end of his life in which he has seen every kind of horror, was brought to tears by this traumatic experience. 

I was discussing the experience of fighting Abeloth as a whole, not just her appearance. And indeed, the text directly states that Vol was irreparably traumatised by the experience.

Cilghal wrote:2- the likely reason he was left weak and feeble had more to do with the the effect the attack on Abeloth’s mind had on his force reserves in fact the novel states “he put everything he had into the attack” (link ), indicating tremendous effort. Let’s not forget that, without the force, Vol is little more an extremely old man. Again it has nothing to do with the effects of Abeloth’s illusions, which, as we know, he was able to overcome. 
For the first bolded part, this is something I pointed out rather than argued against. Vol was left incredibly weak after the fight. As for the second, this is again a strawman argument that is irrelevant to my point, which seems to stem from your fixation on Abeloth's illusions, which were not an important part of my post.

I made it very clear in my last post (as does the text itself) that Vol was horrified and traumatised by the experience as a whole with Abeloth, and that's really the only important takeaway: Vol was left weakened, terrified, feeble, sounding senile and weeping in regret at the biggest mistake he had ever made in trying to challenge Abeloth. I'll post it again for clarity:
Her pain exploded and hurled him back, releasing him, but causing the most exquisite agony Vol had ever experienced to race through every part of his being.

Vol surged forward out of the dream so quickly that he hurled himself from his bed and landed hard on the floor, where he lay gasping, weak, so weak, sweat-soaked and terrified. He-used to manipulating objects in the Force, leaping great distances, crushing things with a thought-had not the strength of a new-hatched uvak. It was an effort to lift his head, to push himself up off the floor, and the muscles quivered from that simple strain.

Grunting, he dragged himself to a seated position, muscles trembling. It would have to do-rising, let alone walking, would take several more minutes. He summoned his last drop of energy and sent forth an urgent demand to Revar, the young Sith Saber who attended him. Four seconds later Revar burst into the room, lightsaber illuminating the darkness and the younger man's worried face with an eerie red glow.

"My lord," Revar cried, lighting the room with a gesture at the same time he deactivated the weapon, "what happened?" He rushed and eased the old man up onto the bed.

Vol opened his mouth, but could not speak. Finally, he rasped, "Abeloth ..."

"She was here?"

Vol shook his head. "No. In ... dream ..." He knew that he sounded senile, but he also knew that there were marks on his body that Revar and others could see. "My ship-take me to my ship. And awaken the Lords," he said, alarmed at how feeble he sounded. "And the defenses-the city ... she is going to ... to make the city pay ..."

Revar wasted no more time on questions. Using the Force, he lifted his Master as gently as possible, then, holding on to him, Revar raced, with Force-augmented speed, toward the hangar atop Vol's estate. There was always a small personal vessel at the ready; one never knew when the Grand Lord might wish to depart on short notice.

As they fled, Vol began to weep. Revar was disconcerted, but not so much that he did not pay close attention to the mumbled words.

"Nothing can hold her ... Fool to think I could use her ... What is she?... Mistake ... By the dark, the greatest mistake I have ever made ..."
--Fate of the Jedi: Ascension

In light of that, this was my argument:
@ILS wrote:By now you should see where I’m going with this. Given Wyyrlok’s mastery of Force Illusions and Memory Walk, he’s going to be able to take this extremely traumatic moment in Vol’s life, characterised by weakness, fear, regret, shame and agonising pain of the worst kind, and amplify it even further in an endless loop - a loop where there is no sight of hope, no sight of even getting out alive. Vol is going to be faced with the reality that in attempting to ally with Abeloth, he destroyed his cherished Sith Order that he spent a lifetime trying to build and maintain, along with the immense trauma he experienced battling Abeloth in her own mind, which left him in a near-death state.

And this was your response:
Cilghal wrote:Fair point. But think about that for a second: if Vol could guard against a largely-mind attack from a being who, as I think I do not need to explain why, is far more powerful than Wyyrlok, and is himself a very strong telepath, what are the odds of him falling for Wyyrlok’s memory walk?

I fail to see how this addresses the core of my argument, in light of my above counters. Vol did not "guard against a largely-mind attack" from Abeloth, and indeed, her mere reaction to the pain he caused within her was enough to nearly kill him. The assertion that Vol survived a "direct attack" from Abeloth is illogical, because if she had made a direct attack on his psyche, rather than merely defending herself from having a festering psychic wound uprooted with a psychic meat cleaver, then she surely would have killed him in seconds.

Also, the phrasing "fall for" Wyyrlok's Memory Walk implies that there is a level of deception involved, and insofar as Memory Walk embellishes, and creates a negative feedback loop of the traumatic memory this is true - but Wyyrlok is only showing Darish Vol to himself. It's not the same as a Force Illusion where one is made to see what isn't there.


Cilghal wrote:Furthermore, Vol never seemed to be too overtly hampered by the loss of his city. In fact, right before his death, he was starting to rebuild the sith order to its former greatness , by using the Jedi temple on coruscant as his new base and infiltrating into the GA’s government, which indicates he had recovered from the shock and was starting towards a new beginning.

Even an amateur student of psychology knows that appearances are not all that they seem, and just as Abeloth does not "seem to overtly hampered" by her deep, festering, disgusting psychic wounds and insecurities, if one merely takes a pinprick to them it becomes clear she is indeed "overtly hampered" by them, much the same as Vol would be when Wyyrlok plunders his mind.

If you have any evidence that Vol processed and reconciled this immense trauma in a short amount of time, I'd be glad to see it.

As for Wyyrlok being able to plunder his mind to begin with, I did back that with an argument which you have ignored (conceded?) in your post here.

@ILS wrote:Now, if I was a betting man, I would say that Darth Krayt, a guy who overcame death itself and conquered all of his inner demons, is of sounder mental constitution than Vol. Even he was brought to his knees if only briefly by Wyyrlok. And, had Wyyrlok not spent his time gloating and monologuing to his defeated opponent, he might have had a chance to end the fight.

He has no reason to do so here, as he has no personal grudge against Vol. And Vol will be incapacitated even longer than Krayt. In fact, it’s entirely possible that the trauma he will experience will be so great that Memory Walk alone wins the fight for Wyyrlok. But on the off-chance it isn’t, it will still serve as a good enough distraction that while he is floored, Wyyrlok can simply blast him with lightning - as he did the Andeddu cultists while they fought illusory opponents - or just stab him to death. Given that Wyyrlok can shatter stone pillars with his Lightning , I doubt an incapacitated Vol will be able to do much but die once he is hit by it.

Wyyrlok has no problem using Memory Walk in the heat of battle. As we saw, he was on the losing end of a lightsaber exchange from a visibly bloodlusted Krayt, and he still managed to get off Memory Walk. Vol is not a warrior of the same calibre as Krayt, so there will be no issue for Wyyrlok using this technique on him.

I look forward to seeing how you can counter this.

To address your case study, then.

Cilghal wrote:Ultimately, we know from past examples, such as the fight between Darth Maladi and Cade Skywalker that memory walk can be resisted and sent back towards the attacker, which I feel is what would likely happen should the duel come down to a telepathic contest. 

We shall see if this claim has any merit.


Cilghal wrote:Interestingly enough, I found some indication that Vol’s power far exceeds Wyyrlok’s. Comparing both to the same individual, Darth Krayt it’s clear who’s superior. 
Let’s begin by comparing Krayt and Vol: both fight Abeloth and are somewhat able to contend with her power. In Vol’s case (link for the full fight ), although his victory ultimately came only through a technique Abeloth was vulnerable to, the text makes clear he could defend himself from her force attacks: it uses statements such as “ wrapping himself" in a Force barrier, “resisted" attacks from Abeloth's tentacles which were a form of Force energy and "rooted himself" against "a blast of Force anger". In Krayt’s case he was able to defend himself from a TK attack. However, when one takes into account the circumstances involved, it becomes clear Vol’s feat against her was far better. First of all, when Krayt and Luke faced Abeloth she was weakened by having just lost an avatar to Tahiri Veila and Boba Fett along with having to fight Ben, Vestara and Saba at the same time. This is specifically made note of in the aforementioned ERC: 

Firstly: Vol gained no victory. Abeloth nearly killed him, leaving him a helpless mess, simply by exploding in pain and severing their psychic connection. She was then able to melt a city with her power.

Secondly: it is not at all clear that the circumstances of Vol's fight make his resisting of Abeloth's blasts "far better" than Krayt.

Luke and Krayt fought Abeloth Beyond Shadows, not an avatar but her true self. Yes, she would not be at full power as she had other avatars fighting elsewhere, but if your claim is that Vol fought a full-powered Abeloth under neutral circumstances, you have a lot more proving to do.

What actually happened was Abeloth attempted to invade Vol's mind/dream, somewhere he is at his strongest (as it is much harder to kill someone in their own mind than on neutral territory, as shown with Essence Transfer mechanics and the battle inside the Outlander's mind in KOTET), and he capitalised on an opportunity to rip up a festering psychic wound. It's not at all clear he was fighting Abeloth's true self as would have been the case Beyond Shadows.

Moreover, looking at these passages below, one at the start of the Beyond Shadows fight, the other at the end:

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:
Luke turned to follow-and there she was, a gray silhouette just emerging from the Mists of Forgetfulness, her long saffron hair cascading almost down to the water, her tiny pinpoint eyes shining out of sockets as deep as wells.

Luke's hand dropped to his hip, automatically reaching for a lightsaber that did not exist beyond shadows. He tried to continue the motion and bring it up to deliver a blast of Force energy, but Abeloth had already launched her own attack by then, delivering a bolt of Force lightning that blasted straight through the stranger into Luke. He felt himself fly backward, consumed by pain, his entire being a column of blue, crackling Force flame.
[...]
Luke hurled another blast of Force energy in her direction, then braced himself to take the most devastating counterattack yet. The counterattack never came.
[...]
Abeloth did not come dancing in to counterattack, did not even try to stand off defensively and weaken them with a blast of Force lightning. She did not have time for such tactics. Luke doubted she would have fled the battle in the first place if she were not already dying, and with her Force essence gushing out of her like a geyser, she had to attack now.

Abeloth dispenses with defensive or counter-offensive "tactics" such as throwing Force lightning or making counter-attacks at the end of the duel, because she is on the verge of dying and has nothing left to lose. But defensively throwing lightning and making counter-attacks is how she started the duel. Ergo, she cannot actually exert any telekinetic force or get her tendrils into Luke or Krayt at the start of the duel, but has to probe for an opening first.

Cilghal wrote:
Secondly, Krayt was likely to be empowered by the font of power, which is noted by Ben in Apocalypse as being probably “the most potent [nexus] in the galaxy”. 
Now, one may argue that since Krayt was beyond shadows he wasn’t able to draw on it, however we have seen on many occasions that it can be drawn upon even in that realm, and given the circumstances it would make sense 

The way a Force nexus works in the physical universe is that there is an abundance of Living Force energy, which means there is more available energy in the environment for the Force user to draw upon - they are limited by either their own midichlorian count, or the available energy in the environment. 

Beyond Shadows is a non-physical realm where only the "essence" or "spirit" of a Force user is present. There are no midichlorians acting as a go-between for the spirit and body. Ergo, it is not at all clear or proven that a nexus Beyond Shadows works the same way, and just because Luke can sense that the dark side imbues the Font, it does not mean that one can draw on that power without drinking from the Font itself. 

Furthermore, this is how Luke experiences the Force when Beyond Shadows:

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:
Luke rose out of his body with a jolt, then hung floating above it, staring at the underside of the bunk above. A week passed, or maybe it was a second-he had no idea. Time had no existence outside the body. A heartbeat lasted a week, a lifetime flashed by in an instant. But Luke Skywalker remained, a manifestation of Force essence that embodied mind and form, more real than the material husk he had left strapped in the bunk below.
He exhaled, or imagined himself exhaling, and his connection to his body grew more tenuous. There is no life, there is only the Force. It was the code of the Mind Walkers, an assertion that the corporeal was illusion, that a living being was nothing but a luminous swirl in the Force. And perhaps they were right.
Luke exhaled again, and a purple radiance appeared above, shining down through the crude matter of the upper bunk as though it were a hologram. He reached, and the light came flooding in, filling him with a calm as deep as space. He became the Force, and the Force became him, and he knew only the pure, eternal joy of existence.

Luke experiences a full and undiminished connection to the Force, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that one could be amped by a nexus in the traditional physical manner in a non-physical realm of pure Force energy.

Cilghal wrote:Such circumstances were not present when Vol confronted her, yet he performed very similarly. The fact that Krayt was struggling despite indicates he cannot do the same under normal circumstances.

That Vol and Krayt can do the same thing (not be thrown by Abeloth's Force blasts) in two very different circumstances, does not mean that one of them is better than the other... it means they did the same thing under different circumstances. According to your argument, Vol must also be more powerful than Luke, because Luke did no differently or better than Krayt insofar as they blocked Abeloth's TK blasts, but that would indeed be a spurious argument to make, and one you don't actually believe in.

Cilghal wrote:His would also explain why Krayt seemingly appears to be a Luke Skywalker level force user, a level of power he never displayed in any other of his appereances.

Well, I'm glad both you and the writer of the book, Troy Denning, agree that Krayt appears to be a Luke-level Force user based on the events of Apocalypse. 

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Unknow11
SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Screen16

Whether he is "Luke-level" or to what specific hair-splitting extent he compares to Luke is a matter of further debate, but the fact is he is approximately in Luke's range, he's a very good fight for Luke, based on Apocalypse.

Also, not only is it not true that he "never displays a level of power" like this again, at least that is not a fact but rather your own conjecture, but even if it were true, one does not need to replicate a feat for it to be valid - a feat done once is as valid as if it were done a thousand times.

Cilghal wrote:As such, we can see that Vol exceeds Krayt as of Apocalypse in power by an at least moderate margin.
Now, as you know very well, Krayt‘s Vong implants gradually his body in the next 86 years, to the point where it took a severe toll on his body to simply take down Fel’s empire.In fact, By the time of his ascension to the position of Emperor, his body was literally failing. 

Your argument, which is as follows:

Vol and Krayt can both tank a Force blast from Abeloth in varying circumstances, therefore Vol is better than Krayt.

Is not currently coherent or supported by any evidence. In fact, all we know is that Vol has "much" the power of Luke, and Krayt appears to be something of a peer to him.


Cilghal wrote:Despite this clear weakness of Krayt’s, he remained superior to Wyyrlok, with a quote even attesting that Krayt far surpasses him: 

Indeed, the quote does say that.


Cilghal wrote:This is all confirmed by the fact that Wyyrlok did not attempt to betray Krayt until the latter was literally unconscious after his fight with Muur. 

So ultimately we have Vol>FOTJ Krayt>>Vector Krayt>>Wyyrlok. 
I don’t I need to explain why the chagrian Sith Lord is completely outclassed by his opponent. 

So:

1. We have absolutely no confirmation of Vol being above Krayt. In fact, the weight of evidence probably suggests the reverse, given that Krayt actually fought Abeloth on neutral ground and rebuked real Force attacks from her, rather than Vol opening his mind to her and mutually plundering hers, holding on for dear life as he takes a psychic hatchet to her deepest weaknesses. We also have a much more favourable comparison to Luke from Troy Denning, saying that "minor" differences in ability are not as important as "strategy" and "circumstances" if Luke and Krayt fought.

2. You have failed to address all of my points about Vol's mental vulnerabilities and Wyyrlok's ability to capitalise them. I made an argument about how Reborn Krayt (who is significantly stronger in every way compared to FotJ Krayt) has more willpower than Vol, and yet, Wyyrlok still brought him to his knees and entered his mind. It was also not addressed.

3. Even if I were to make the concession that Vol has more raw power than Wyyrlok, you have not actually explained how this counters my argument or would make a difference in the fight.

My argument remains the same as before:

@ILS wrote:And Vol will be incapacitated even longer than Krayt. In fact, it’s entirely possible that the trauma he will experience will be so great that Memory Walk alone wins the fight for Wyyrlok. But on the off-chance it isn’t, it will still serve as a good enough distraction that while he is floored, Wyyrlok can simply blast him with lightning - as he did the Andeddu cultists while they fought illusory opponents - or just stab him to death. Given that Wyyrlok can shatter stone pillars with his Lightning , I doubt an incapacitated Vol will be able to do much but die once he is hit by it.

Wyyrlok has no problem using Memory Walk in the heat of battle. As we saw, he was on the losing end of a lightsaber exchange from a visibly bloodlusted Krayt, and he still managed to get off Memory Walk. Vol is not a warrior of the same calibre as Krayt, so there will be no issue for Wyyrlok using this technique on him.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on October 31st 2019, 2:11 pm
this gonna be good. technique vs power
xolthol
xolthol

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on October 31st 2019, 3:47 pm
This SS is really interresting
@ILS Great post.
Azronger
Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

on October 31st 2019, 4:11 pm
@xolthol Remember to give it a star if you think it is great.
Sponsored content

SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Wyyrlok (ILS) vs Darish Vol (Cilghal)

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum