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Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 Empty Re: Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth

on April 23rd 2019, 12:05 pm
Abeloth is also a practitioner of the dark side lol.
Isv
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:07 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Dude... that argument is shit. if you ask anyone who has good knowlege on Abeloth, she isn't factored into that equation. Abeloth is an entity, behind time and space. In fact its not even clear if she possesses a physical form. She is so far beyond the "mortal force users" like sheev, Valkorion, Yoda, Vader etc that she obviously would not be factored into a single quote. Sorry man, I luv ya. Love you're debating skill, but I am not buying that one.

I'm presenting like . . . the most common and generally accepted rebuttal to the quote you're posing. Why do you think no one uses the quote otherwise?

Let's follow your logic, though. Sure, Abeloth is an immoral, godlike Force entity that possesses hosts and cannot be conventionally destroyed (she is not beyond space and time, lol). However, Valkorion is also an immortal, godlike Force entity that possesses hosts and cannot be conventionally destroyed. It's completely arbitrary to draw the line at Abeloth and allow her but not Valkorion.

By that logic, if that is your foundation for what Valk is, and if that is the grounds you want to argue, sheev is in the same realm. I mean, Tbh you haven't really proved that Abeloth is above sheev Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 2266747095

As of Dark empire Sheev tears apart the fabric of space with his presence. Dominates the mind of every sentient creature in the Galaxy, and creates literal rips in space and time that can devour worlds. In terms of feats Abeloth is outclassed, so if you want to put Valk and Abeloth on the same plane of existence that's fine you can do that, but the thing is... Sheev would be above them anyway, so your point is moot Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 228124001
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:09 pm
Quit the trolling ISV...
NotAA3
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:10 pm
I don't think proof needs to be provided that Abeloth is more powerful than Sheev. Plus, Chee himself has said Sidious's supremacy quotes are subjective.
DarthAnt66
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:16 pm
@in-sidiousvader: By that logic, if that is your foundation for what Valk is, and if that is the grounds you want to argue, sheev is in the same realm. I mean, Tbh you haven't really proved that Abeloth is above sheev  

Yes, Palpatine also fits those descriptions. I agree. That point is not mutually exclusive with my point. 

As of Dark empire Sheev tears apart the fabric of space with his presence. Dominates the mind of every sentient creature in the Galaxy, and creates literal rips in space and time that can devour worlds. In terms of feats Abeloth is outclassed, so if you want to put Valk and Abeloth on the same plane of existence that's fine you can do that, but the thing is... Sheev would be above them anyway, so your point is moot

Except you're arguing ROTS Palpatine is above Abeloth and the Son.  Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 1220391476
Isv
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:20 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@in-sidiousvader: By that logic, if that is your foundation for what Valk is, and if that is the grounds you want to argue, sheev is in the same realm. I mean, Tbh you haven't really proved that Abeloth is above sheev  

Yes, Palpatine also fits those descriptions. I agree. That point is not mutually exclusive with my point. 

As of Dark empire Sheev tears apart the fabric of space with his presence. Dominates the mind of every sentient creature in the Galaxy, and creates literal rips in space and time that can devour worlds. In terms of feats Abeloth is outclassed, so if you want to put Valk and Abeloth on the same plane of existence that's fine you can do that, but the thing is... Sheev would be above them anyway, so your point is moot

Except you're arguing ROTS Palpatine is above Abeloth and the Son.  Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 1220391476

Ahh okay, misconception then. There are quotes that put him above all darksiders in history. Abeloth though should not be factored into those quotes in my opinion. It messes with the sources, but I don't have the stamina for this (irrelevant to actual discussion) though I do personally see the most powerful quotes as binding your refutation was admirable, overall a good debate Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 228124001
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:22 pm
How did a thread about Poof and Joruus end up about Sheev and Abeloth kek?
NotAA3
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:22 pm
That hidden concession though.
DarthAnt66
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:23 pm
@in-sidiousvader: That's great that you think that, but I wish you'd substantiate your belief further, given your previous argument didn't work. As far as I can tell, you're drawing an arbitrary line between Abeloth and Valkorion.
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:26 pm
Sheev's supremacy quotes over Sith are legitimate, too bad Valkorion isn't a Sith.

Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 228124001
Isv
Isv

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on April 23rd 2019, 12:29 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@in-sidiousvader: That's great that you think that, but I wish you'd substantiate your belief further, given your previous argument didn't work. As far as I can tell, you're drawing an arbitrary line between Abeloth and Valkorion.

If you insist...

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary

there is no refutation to be had here. Abeloth is not a user of sith powers. Sure she uses the Darkside powers, but those are not necessarily sith in nature. In fact it could be argued that the Sith are the ones using Dark powers, since the Darkside has been around way longer. On-top of that, Abeloth has been around very earlier on in the history of Star wars.

Now, the argument for Valk being a sith or not is something I will not touch. But it is irrefutable that he uses sith Power. As we have established that Abeloth does not necessarily use sith power, and that she is likely excluded from the quote being that she is beyond time and space and all. It seems apparent that ROTS Sidious, is more powerful than Valkorion.

to simplify for the DCs reading

>Valkorion (uses sith powers)

> Sidious (uses sith powers)

>Abeloth (used the darkside before the sith were even a thing)
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:33 pm
@in-sidiousvader: Sure, Palpatine is the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power. I agree. I also agree Abeloth and the Son are exempt from that quote. I need further elaboration on why "greatest" means "strongest" though, rather than Palpatine being "the greatest master of evil" (e.g. the Joker, Lex Luther, etc.) that is a Sith.

Edit: Note that I'm wouldn't agree with the claim that, "The Son is the greatest master of evil ever to use dark side power." He's not.
Isv
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:40 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@in-sidiousvader: Sure, Palpatine is the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power. I agree. I also agree Abeloth and the Son are exempt from that quote. I need further elaboration on why "greatest" means "strongest" though, rather than Palpatine being "the greatest master of evil" (e.g. the Joker, Lex Luther, etc.) that is a Sith.

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

Source: The Complete Visual Dictionary

Okay... I mean I think you're grasping for straws here, but I'll humor the argument Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 228124001

somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.

so to explain why it clearly refers to power, lets explain a bit of grammar...
somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil
What this means is that after the word darkness the whole sentence relates to that point. So somewhere there is a master of evil, right? okay well...


the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.

that greatest master of evil, is also the greatest to ever use sith power. so its not saying Sidious has the "greatest" power like you try to pass if off. It is saying that sidious is the greatest of the masters of evil, I hope we can agree Valkorion is a C*nt. So Sheev is the greatest master of evil, Valkorion is a master of evil, and then...

ever to use Sith power bides his time.

so we established he is the greatest of the masters of evil, but now we have an addition to that sentence. He is the greatest master of evil ever to use sith power which you conceded would refer to Valkorion.

(if this doesn't make sense I'm sorry, Its harder to explain over the internet, but I hope I got my point across)
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:49 pm
Okay... I mean I think you're grasping for straws here, but I'll humor the argument Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 228124001

I'll humor your rebuttal.

What this means is that after the word darkness the whole sentence relates to that point. So somewhere there is a master of evil, right? okay well...

Agreed.

that greatest master of evil, is also the greatest to ever use sith power

No. The quote states X is the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power. Thus, two conditionals must be true: (A) X must be the greatest master of evil, (B) X must use Sith power. Note that neither conditional comments on the potency of the Sith power. That's irrelevant to the quote. Theoretically, if you swapped Palpatine for the Joker and gave him Sith apprentice-tier powers, the Joker would still qualify as "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power."

so its not saying Sidious has the "greatest" power.

Agreed.

It is saying that sidious is the greatest of the masters of evil, I hope we can agree Valkorion is a C*nt. So Sheev is the greatest master of evil, Valkorion is a master of evil, and then.]

Agreed.

so we established he is the greatest of the masters of evil, but now we have an addition to that sentence. He is the greatest master of evil ever to use with power which you conceded would refer to Valkorion.

Agreed.

Alas, given our one disagreement, I can't say I agree that the quote means Palpatine is stronger than Valkorion. 


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on April 23rd 2019, 12:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
Isv
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:53 pm
Definitely fair. Though I interpert the quote differently (mainly based on the other quotes stating similar things about sith specifically, which I am unsure if Valkorion is a part of), I can see the other interpretation and indeed it is just as fair given your far greater explanation. At the risk of my colleagues claiming I concede I propose an agree to disagree?
NotAA3
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on April 23rd 2019, 12:57 pm
C O N C E S S I O N.
DarthAnt66
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on April 23rd 2019, 1:02 pm
In-sidiousvader wrote:Definitely fair. Though I interpert the quote differently (mainly based on the other quotes stating similar things about sith specifically, which I am unsure if Valkorion is a part of), I can see the other interpretation and indeed it is just as fair given your far greater explanation. At the risk of my colleagues claiming I concede I propose an agree to disagree?

Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 3948126588

I don't care what you think, I'm just defending your attack on @LadyKulvax for having an easily defensible position.
Isv
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on April 23rd 2019, 1:02 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
In-sidiousvader wrote:Definitely fair. Though I interpert the quote differently (mainly based on the other quotes stating similar things about sith specifically, which I am unsure if Valkorion is a part of), I can see the other interpretation and indeed it is just as fair given your far greater explanation. At the risk of my colleagues claiming I concede I propose an agree to disagree?

Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 3948126588

I don't care what you think, I'm just defending your attack on @LadyKulvax for having an easily defensible position.

...
you defending AP?
Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 1076326320
DarthAnt66
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on April 23rd 2019, 1:05 pm
Not that he'd need it against your arguments, lol.
Isv
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on April 23rd 2019, 1:06 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Not that he'd need it against your arguments, lol.

Considering how well I put you on the back foot, Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 4037459623 Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 4233314142 Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 3948126588 Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 1076326320

He would instadie, don't lower me Ant. I deserve credit for not getting oneshotted by you Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 228124001
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on April 23rd 2019, 1:22 pm
@in-sidiousvader: You ought to set up an SS with him then, although I wouldn't equate 'continually making wrong claims' with 'holding one's own.'

OFFICIAL NOTICE TO @in-sidiousvader and @dc77: You are banned from talking to or mentioning one-another for three days.
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on April 23rd 2019, 6:37 pm
Yarael Poof vs Joruus C'baoth - Page 2 1076326320
LadyKulvax
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on April 23rd 2019, 9:03 pm
I still love how Sheevites use the reality-warping nexus to wank him when Tenebrae has that a good 1,300 years before his prime. Lmfao.
copper.warrioranalytics
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on July 7th 2019, 12:38 am
jorus. far more skilled with a lightsaber, stronger in the force, more skilled with the force.
poof's powers are more passive, in mind trickery and tk. he is fair with a lightsaber and has 4 arms, enhancing his dexterity and multitasking abilities, he's also 3 meters tall and capable of great and unnatural flexibility because he has no spine to speak of. he also has a brain in his chest as well as his head, making for an exceptionally quick reaction time, capacity and intelligence. but is this all enough to match jorus? i don't think so.
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on July 7th 2019, 12:41 am
C’Baoth one shots
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