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KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:54 am
I will be presenting a short argument as to why I believe spirit kun is more powerful than physical kun.

Some argue that Kun being in spirit form weakened his power. However from a logical standpoint that doesn't make sense. Normally people are weaker in their spirit forms because they were defeated in combat or they died through other means. In Kun's case however he performed a ritual that was specifically designed to remove his spirit from his body. It is unlikely Kun would use a ritual that he knew would weaken him greatly. Their is also the fact that he drained the entire massassi race on yavin IV for the ritual which would have logically raised his power.

So yeah that's it. Just something short to get discussion going.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:58 am
It's confirmed in sources that the Massassi sacrifice allowed him to transform into a spirit and that the temples acted as an anchor after the Jedi trapped him there. It's an objective fact that Kun was more powerful when he was alive.
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0
Moderator
Moderator

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:02 am
JA Physical Kun>JA Spirit Kun>TOTJ Physical Kun
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:05 am
That's objectively false.
Quorian Debatist
Quorian Debatist

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:10 am
@KingofBlades wrote:I will be presenting a short argument as to why I believe spirit kun is more powerful than physical kun.

Some argue that Kun being in spirit form weakened his power. However from a logical standpoint that doesn't make sense. Normally people are weaker in their spirit forms because they were defeated in combat or they died through other means. In Kun's case however he performed a ritual that was specifically designed to remove his spirit from his body. It is unlikely Kun would use a ritual that he knew would weaken him greatly. Their is also the fact that he drained the entire massassi race on yavin IV for the ritual which would have logically raised his power.

So yeah that's it. Just something short to get discussion going.

How does a massive wall of light by the entire Jedi Order - meant to literally cut off users from the force - fit into your theory?
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0
Moderator
Moderator

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:12 am
Prove it.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:15 am
As far as I'm aware a wall of light has multiple functions. It can as you said sever the force connection of force users. However it also has the ability to simply contain the darkside. This is seen with Thon's wall of light on Ambria. Any darkside spirits trapped by a wall of light still possess their power within the boundaries of the WoL
Quorian Debatist
Quorian Debatist

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:27 am
@KingofBlades wrote:As far as I'm aware a wall of light has multiple functions. It can as you said sever the force connection of force users. However it also has the ability to simply contain the darkside. This is seen with Thon's wall of light on Ambria. Any darkside spirits trapped by a wall of light still possess their power within the boundaries of the WoL

So you're of the opinion that thousands upon thousands of Jedi converged in one location solely for the purpose of trapping Kun?

So when we look at the source material, when they say the options of:

"Extinguish, cleanse/destroy"

You're of the mind that they never actually aimed it at Kun directly, and just wanted to put him in a cage?

But here, curious of your answer before we proceed further:

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Screen19
Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Rco01810
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:36 am
Well considering the collective might of the jedi order was >kun if they were attempting to destroy exar kun they would have succeeded. That or the massassi ritual increased Kun's power beyond what the jedi used in their WoL. Which as shown by the wording in the scans you provided seems to be a likely option.


Last edited by KingofBlades on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 am
Firstly, the Massassi sacrifice did exactly what I said:


The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:There, where he first won their loyalty by slaying the wyrm, Kun used Sadow's ancient techniques and the life energy of every Massassi to leave his body and become one with the dark side. 

The temples acted as an achor:


The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

It is further confirmed that Kun has lost all his energy reserves and needed to find more to return to human form:


The Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy.

But better yet, Tom Veitch himself confirms Exar Kun was more powerful when he was alive:

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Screen11
Ziggy
Ziggy

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:44 am
Kun was definitely more powerful alive than as a spirit.

Less powerful than the combination of Kyp + Yavin Temples + Spirit Kun against an obviously jobbing Luke.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:46 am
Except he isn't less powerful, when Kun is confirmed to be > Kyp, and demonstratably is. Not to mention Kun was maintaining his corruptive influence over Kyp that entire fight, and already had significant amounts of his power drained when he'd empowered Kyp to summon the Suncrusher down from Yavin's sun minutes earlier.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:52 am
@LadyKulvax true kun did lose energy as  4000 years passed by. But that doesn't mean he's weaker than physical kun. As shown by the scans provided by the quorian debatist the jedi order was attempting to eradicate Kun. Since the collective might of the jedi was >>TotJ physical kun, the only logical explanation is that TotJ spirit kun grew powerful enough to resist the WoL since physical kun would've been unable to. So the quote you provided saying kun needed to replenish his power could easily mean he is attempting to restore the power he had when he first became a spirit.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:53 am
You're literally ignoring my post at this point.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:56 am
Oh and we have significant reason to believe they couldn't destroy Kun:


SWTOR Timeline 7: The Exar Kun War wrote:Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison his spirit in the temples of Yavin IV.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:59 am
I ignored your author email because it runs counter to the evidence in the actual sources we have. I addressed your JA sourcebook quote which was your only significant source.Your DS sourcebook quotes don't prove or disprove either of our theories so commenting on them would've been pointless.
Quorian Debatist
Quorian Debatist

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:59 am
@KingofBlades wrote:Well considering the collective might of the jedi order was >kun if they were attempting to destroy exar kun they would have succeeded. That or the massassi ritual increased Kun's power beyond what the jedi used in their WoL. Which as shown by the wording in the scans you provided seems to be a likely option.


So you'd be of the opinion that the blast never touched his physical body either, correct?
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:00 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:Oh and we have significant reason to believe they couldn't destroy Kun:


SWTOR Timeline 7: The Exar Kun War wrote:Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison his spirit in the temples of Yavin IV.
Yes they were unable to defeat spirit kun. However physical kun is a different matter. Physical kun admits he was weaker than the jedi coalition.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:05 am
@Quorian Debatist wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Well considering the collective might of the jedi order was >kun if they were attempting to destroy exar kun they would have succeeded. That or the massassi ritual increased Kun's power beyond what the jedi used in their WoL. Which as shown by the wording in the scans you provided seems to be a likely option.


So you'd be of the opinion that the blast never touched his physical body either, correct?
Well idk what happened to his body. It could've disappeared after the ritual. But I'm assuming that after Kun separated from his body, if it still remained it would be an empty husk and that the WoL would've done nothing to it.
Quorian Debatist
Quorian Debatist

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:08 am
@KingofBlades wrote:
@Quorian Debatist wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Well considering the collective might of the jedi order was >kun if they were attempting to destroy exar kun they would have succeeded. That or the massassi ritual increased Kun's power beyond what the jedi used in their WoL. Which as shown by the wording in the scans you provided seems to be a likely option.


So you'd be of the opinion that the blast never touched his physical body either, correct?
Well idk what happened to his body. It could've disappeared after the ritual. But I'm assuming that after Kun separated from his body, if it still remained it would be an empty husk and that the WoL would've done nothing to it.

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Screen21
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:09 am
So you're literally ignoring author confirmation to stick with your own interpretation? Lmao.

No he says he can't defeat an entire fleet of Jedi ships and the entire order together. Because you know, orbital bombardment is a thing. He has no way to stop the fleet from bombing the surface. So he decides to transform into a spirit so he can escape into the cosmos and rebuild elsewhere. They summon a wall of light in a counter to his attempts so they can stop him from escaping that way.

The Dark Side sourcebook quotes prove that he only used the sacrifice as a source of energy for his ritual. It didn't make him more powerful nor is that stated anywhere. You haven't provided a singular quote stating so. Your entire argument hinges on faulty Wall of Light scaling which I've proved isn't applicable in the first place.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:29 am
Well i don't find author quotes binding unless its GL himself so unless you wanna have a tangent argument on the validity of author statements, I thought it wiser to focus on the more important portions of your argument. 
Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Rco01910
Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Rco02210

For one thing you have no reason to assume that Kun thought the jedi would attempt orbital bombardment. Especially since the jedi did not do this and were horrified when their WoL accidentally laid laste to the surrounding environment. It seems unlikely that Kun would horribly miscalculate what the jedi were going to do.

And in regards to your request for evidence that the ritual increased Kun's power. The quorian debatist just provided evidence that explicitly states the ritual increased his power.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:35 am
Noticed I forgot the scan of the jedi being horrified at what the WoL didSpirit Kun vs Physical Kun Rco02311
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:59 am
An author clarifying his own works is perfectly usable, whether you want it to be or not.

The combined might of all the Jedi includes the ships they're literally stood in, lmfao. That issue ends with Kun's spirit begging for Ulic's help but Ulic can't sense him, being severed and all that.

He's described in numerous sources, including the one Quorian posted, as having only the strength to anchor his spirit to the temples when the massassi sacrifice gives him the energy to become one with the dark side.

This isn't even a real argument.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level One
Level One

Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

on Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:21 am
Uhh if the ships weren't used offensively and only served for transportation purposes then its dishonest to include them with the full might of the jedi. And there's no getting around the quote explicitly saying that Kun grew more powerful after the ritual.

However upon introspection I've realized my issue with author statements is when multiple authors have written about a character so they don't have sole rights to decisions about where a character stands. However exar kun as a character was only written about directly by one author so I guess I have no reason to have issue with the quote you provided. However now arises the issue of a published source blatantly saying kun got stronger as a spirit and an unofficial email from an author saying the opposite.
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Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun Empty Re: Spirit Kun vs Physical Kun

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