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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 22nd 2019, 10:19 am
YousufLatham wrote:Maul wasn’t tired, TPM junior novel states that Maul seemed as fresh as ever. Maul was initially caught off guard by rage amped Obi-Wan’s attack’s because for some reason, he didn’t expect rage amped Obi-Wan to be > standard Obi-Wan, but he did adjust to this change once he knew what he was facing.

He “seems” as fresh as ever by Kenobi in the last phase of the fight because he’s drawing from Kenobi’s rage to empower and refresh himself. I’m referring to the start of the fight.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 12:48 am
So no actual rebuttals from anyone? Lol
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 2:16 am
Bro nobody but you is convinced Qui-Gon wins just let it go tbh
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 12:32 pm
I'm convinced Jinn wins.

Anyway, can anyone explain why Kit wins? As far as I'm concerned Kit basically getting speedblitzed by Ventress is absolutely nowhere close to Jinn's performance(s) vs TPM Maul.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 1:03 pm
Trolling MP aside Jinn wins.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 1:12 pm
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Fitso wasn't speedblitzed by Ventress. The duel was arguably as long as the Tatooine duel where an inured Maul nearly killed Jinn in 40 seconds. And Ventress even at this stage isn't far off from TPM Maul.

Fitso is too fast and agile for Jinn. The reason Jinn did so well in his final stand was for a variety of factors:

a) They had been dueling for over 10 minutes which is long enough to get familiarized with Maul's technique. Fisto like Maul has a very offputting style that could give any newcomer some serious difficulty. Ventress had time to analyze his style before they fought which would help to mitigate this.

b) He put everything into the attack and didn't let up until fatigue set in. He was fighting almost uncharacteristically aggressively; "more aggressive that Kenobi had ever seen Jinn fight" meaning it's unlikely he'll open up with that kind of aggression from the outset in a fight with Fisto. 

c) Unlike the hangar bay, the space in the generator room was tight and narrow and didn't allow for Maul enough room to abuse his superior agility, which he used so effectively to outmaneuver the both of them in the start of the duel. Once the fight moved to the narrow catwalks it was easier for the Jedi to corner him, which is probably why it lead to him getting knocked down by Jinn. Fitso like Maul is a very skilled acrobatic and so is Ventress; she regularly users her agility to outmaneuver Anakin and Kenobi in TCW even when outnumbered, so getting kicked by her isn't an anti-feat and it doesn't mean Jinn can replicate it.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 1:35 pm
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@O-Siri wrote:Fitso wasn't speedblitzed by Ventress. The duel was arguably as long as the Tatooine duel where an inured Maul nearly killed Jinn in 40 seconds. And Ventress even at this stage isn't far off from TPM Maul.

Arguable based on what?

"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.

Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch such a display. But he had his own worries, his own battle to fight.

He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and slaughter the X'Ting. His enemies came on and on, struck quickly but clumsily, got in each other's way. Obi-Wan was direct in attack, and as elusive as a breeze.

He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly-Kit was down! Wounded and groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ventress had pierced his guard. Her left-hand saber sliced his arm but as sparks flew he dove away from her left blade, leaning into a glancing blow from her right.


The implication, from my eyes, is that it's a short engagement. Furthermore:

1. Are you seriously trying to argue Maul's injury impacted him? Even ILS realises that's a futile argument.

2. Qui-Gon would have lasted a lot longer than 40 seconds.

@O-Siri wrote:Fitso is too fast and agile for Jinn.

Too fast based on what? And Jinn certainly didn't have a problem dealing with the incredibly agile Maul stylistically.

@O-Siri wrote:a) They had been dueling for over 10 minutes which is long enough to get familiarized with Maul's technique. Fisto like Maul has a very offputting style that could give any newcomer some serious difficulty. Ventress had time to analyze his style before they fought which would help to mitigate this.

And likewise, Maul would have become familiar with Qui-Gon's technique - it goes both ways. As for Ventress studying Fisto, that's a really poor argument that I'm surprised is still being peddled. Fisto's whole style is based on being unpredictable, lol. Watching him fight for a little bit wouldn't give you a huge advantage.

@O-Siri wrote:b) He put everything into the attack and didn't let up until fatigue set in. He was fighting almost uncharacteristically aggressively; "more aggressive that Kenobi had ever seen Jinn fight" meaning it's unlikely he'll open up with that kind of aggression from the outset in a fight with Fisto. 

The Tatooine duel is more important here for comparing Jinn and Maul - not Jinn's final attack. Not sure why that's relevant here.

@O-Siri wrote:c) Unlike the hangar bay, the space in the generator room was tight and narrow and didn't allow for Maul enough room to abuse his superior agility, which he used so effectively to outmaneuver the both of them in the start of the duel. Once the fight moved to the narrow catwalks it was easier for the Jedi to corner him, which is probably why it lead to him getting knocked down by Jinn. Fitso like Maul is a very skilled acrobatic and so is Ventress; she regularly users her agility to outmaneuver Anakin and Kenobi in TCW even when outnumbered, so getting kicked by her isn't an anti-feat and it doesn't mean Jinn can replicate it.

Okay, but Vehicles and Starships explicitly states Maul has an advantage over Qui-Gon in the confined space of the generator room. And again, you're deferring to minor things as you do with the forms to try and corroborate your a priori premise.

So, Qui-Gon fights evenly with Maul for 40 seconds, and can hold on for a lot longer. You'd have (1) prove the length of the engagement between Fisto and Ventress was of a similar time scale and (2) prove Ventress is on par or superior to TPM Maul.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 1:39 pm
Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 1289255181 Thanks for taking over so I don't have to respond (I have enough to deal with). Also, good post.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 3:17 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Vorpal Blade wrote:The implication, from my eyes, is that it's a short engagement.
It was short but it was far from a "speedblitz" as Arkham was arguing.


Are you seriously trying to argue Maul's injury impacted him? Even ILS realizes that's a futile argument.

I don't take my cue from Swords any more than I do from DMB in regards to Bane. Read the source material, ascertain the context, and come to your own conclusions. Don't rely on RTs.

And yes the injury did impact him. It slowed him down somewhat and the pain of the wound was emphasized in The Wrath of Darth Maul. It straight hindered him and when he drew more heavily on his anger to compensate the battle turned decisively in his favor. 

When they met again on Naboo without the injury Maul was outmaneuvering both of them.


Too fast based on what? And Jinn certainly didn't have a problem dealing with the incredibly agile Maul stylistically.

Yes he did. And uninjured Maul was outmaneuvering Jinn and Kenobi while anticipating their moves with ease:


TPM Script wrote:The SITH LORD's moves are incredible. He is fighting the TWO JEDI at once,
flipping into the air, outmaneuvering them at every turn.

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:Maul advanced toward Qui-Gon and spun, deflecting blows from both Jedi as the fight shifted across the hanger deck. Rapidly spinning his lightsaber blade, he anticipated their moves with ease.


TPM Junior Novel wrote:The Sith Lord was supple and quick, and he worked his way between the Jedi with confidence and ease, whipping his two-ended lightsaber back and forth between them, more than holding his own against their efforts to bring him down.


TPM Novel wrote:Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing. His agility and dexterity allowed him to keep them both at bay, constantly attacking while at the same time effectively blunting their counterattacks, relentlessly searching for an opening in their defense.

And it's not just Maul, Jinn has also had difficulty with the similarly slick and agile Aurra Sing. Fisto's agility should definitely be an advantage he could exploit to his advantage.

And likewise, Maul would have become familiar with Qui-Gon's technique - it goes both ways

Jinn's style isn't based on unpredictability, unlike Maul and Fisto.

As for Ventress studying Fisto, that's a really poor argument that I'm surprised is still being peddled. Fisto's whole style is based on being unpredictable, lol. Watching him fight for a little bit wouldn't give you a huge advantage.

The novel explicitly states Ventress watched both Fisto and Kenobi to get a feel for their style to get an advantage. If it was trivial the novel wouldn't have brought it up.


It's always an advantage when you know what to expect from your enemy but the enemy doesn't know what to expect from you. She got a feel for his style before they even engaged so he couldn't surprise her unlike when he spared with Kenobi, but she already had answers for his style he couldn't anticipate. Definitely a good case for a one-sided knowledge advantage.
The Tatooine duel is more important here for comparing Jinn and Maul - not Jinn's final attack. Not sure why that's relevant here.
An injured Maul isn't comparable to an uninjured Maul given how much more easily he controlled the engagement on Naboo than on Tatooine.

His best performance against an uninjured Maul is situational and not applicable in a normal engagement in character.


Okay, but Vehicles and Starships explicitly states Jinn has an advantage over Maul in the confined space of the generator room.

IK the quote is nonsensical, Jinn isn't a Yoda or Set Harth like Ataru user, he's never been an agility based fighter as of TPM.

And Maul was making active use of his superior agility to outmaneuver the two Jedi at every turn in the hangar, it's why they weren't able to pin him down between the two of them and make use of their numbers. Then he stopped when the fight moved to the catwalks because there just isn't enough space to dance around unlike the hangar, it's the likely reason he got pinned down, as he couldn't maneuver himself away when he got squeezed between the two of them.


And again, you're deferring to minor things as you do with the forms to try and corroborate your a priori premise.

And you are deferring to ABC logic. Styles make fights. You can't ignore the fact Jinn has difficulty with opponents who take advantage of their superior agility, something Fisto excels at.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 3:18 pm
@O-Siri

It was short but it was far from a "speedblitz" as Arkham was arguing.

It's called exaggeration...
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 4:43 pm
Makashi’s form advantage over Shii-Cho is ridiculous lol, Kit v Ventress isn’t a solid showing to prove Jinn beats Kit. That’s like me pulling up Xanatos and Femur wrecking Jinn in a spar as evidence proving Jinn can’t fight groups of opponents.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 23rd 2019, 11:43 pm
I don't think it's a sure fact Ventress has a form advantage tbh. A knowledge advantage to be sure, but no official source has ever stated Makashi > Shii-Cho in a stylistic match-up. It's just fan speculation, it's not a canonical fact.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 24th 2019, 1:28 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@O-Siri wrote:It was short but it was far from a "speedblitz" as Arkham was arguing.

Okay sure, but my point remains: prove the duel lasted longer than the Tatooine duel. Again, the text seems to imply a quick fight.

@O-Siri wrote:I don't take my cue from Swords any more than I do from DMB in regards to Bane. Read the source material, ascertain the context, and come to your own conclusions. Don't rely on RTs.

I can assure you that I've read and ascertained the context of the source material, I was merely pointing out that you really don't want to go there.

@O-Siri wrote:And yes the injury did impact him. It slowed him down somewhat and the pain of the wound was emphasized in The Wrath of Darth Maul. It straight hindered him and when he drew more heavily on his anger to compensate the battle turned decisively in his favor. 

Maul describes the wound as almost inperceptible, and Sith naturally draw strength from pain anyway. There's no indication it significantly hampered his combative performance in the fight. I'm not interested about the POV of a saber autist who thinks every little disadvantage is actually a huge one. Qui-Gon was "totally unprepared" for a lightsaber duel as per the Databank, and Maul was focusing his dark anger on the way to the fight; so there's more context than just "oh well Maul had a bad leg so actually he would have killed Qui-Gon quicker". And I think the intent of the aggregate is to display that both men are even combatants until Qui-Gon tires out. In other words, Maul is close to fourty years younger and has more Force reserves.

@O-Siri wrote:Yes he did.

In the Tatooine duel? Source please, because there's this:

But I must confess that this Jedi is a challenge. If I leap, he is with me. If I turn, he follows me. He meets my ferocity with his own. His lightsaber swirls and hums, and several times comes closer than I like.

--Episode 1 Journal

And of course the script itself:

QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL continue their sword battle. Leaping over one another in an incredible display of acrobatics, the two warrios hear the ship fly over them a few feet off the ground. QUI-GON almost dissapears for a moment.


@O-Siri wrote:And uninjured Maul was outmaneuvering Jinn and Kenobi while anticipating their moves with ease:

These quotes prove nothing. Qui-Gon was aware even in the hangar that Maul was leading them on, he was controlling the flow of the fight, hence the term "outmaneuver". The way you're interpreting that isn't correct, because if he was capable of simply making a fool out of the Jedi consistently, you would wonder why he was "relentlessly" searching for an opening from the Jedi, or why he "knew" he had to separate the two Jedi in order to win even before the battle took place. So, this is just semantics.

@O-Siri wrote:And it's not just Maul, Jinn has also had difficulty with the similarly slick and agile Aurra Sing. Fisto's agility should definitely be an advantage he could exploit to his advantage.

A five second fight? Even if it were true, it's made irrelevant by the Tatooine duel, where Maul notes that his planned advantage in agility didn't work on Qui-Gon at all.

@O-Siri wrote:Jinn's style isn't based on unpredictability, unlike Maul and Fisto.

Not sure what you're trying to prove here. Let's focus on the Tatooine duel which gives us the best idea of what would happen between Qui-Gon and Maul on neutral ground and fair starting conditions.

@O-Siri wrote:The novel explicitly states Ventress watched both Fisto and Kenobi to get a feel for their style to get an advantage. If it was trivial the novel wouldn't have brought it up.

Okay, and prove that advantage seriously impacted the two fights.

@O-Siri wrote:An injured Maul isn't comparable to an uninjured Maul given how much more easily he controlled the engagement on Naboo than on Tatooine.

That might be because he explored the entire generator complex and planned the fight out in advance in meticulous detail?

@O-Siri wrote:His best performance against an uninjured Maul is situational and not applicable in a normal engagement in character.

Then why bring it up?

@O-Siri wrote:IK the quote is nonsensical, Jinn isn't a Yoda or Set Harth like Ataru user, he's never been an agility based fighter as of TPM.

And I've already provided quotes showing Qui-Gon was matching Maul's agility on Tatooine.

@O-Siri wrote:And Maul was making active use of his superior agility to outmaneuver the two Jedi at every turn in the hangar, it's why they weren't able to pin him down between the two of them and make use of their numbers. Then he stopped when the fight moved to the catwalks because there just isn't enough space to dance around unlike the hangar, it's the likely reason he got pinned down, as he couldn't maneuver himself away when he got squeezed between the two of them.

Which is how he planned it....

@O-Siri wrote:And you are deferring to ABC logic. Styles make fights. You can't ignore the fact Jinn has difficulty with opponents who take advantage of their superior agility, something Fisto excels at.

Styles only make fights when the augmenation is comparable. Qui-Gon and Maul had comparable augmenation, and Maul himself admits that Qui-Gon matches his strength, his agility, and his speed, a.k.a an even fight until Jinn's reserves start to tank. You haven't proven that Jinn had explicit trouble against Maul's agility specifically.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 24th 2019, 3:15 am
@O-Siri wrote:I don't think it's a sure fact Ventress has a form advantage tbh. A knowledge advantage to be sure, but no official source has ever stated Makashi > Shii-Cho in a stylistic match-up. It's just fan speculation, it's not a canonical fact.
One is purely bred for multiple opponents and not dueling, the other is purely made for dueling. Little things like foot placement, wrist anglement and moveset make such a huge difference. It really is telling when CD Obi-Wan performs better against Ventress than Kit does, depite being even worse off facing Kit earlier than he was facing Ventress later.

Not to mention Makashi was made in the first place because of Shii-Cho’s lacking emphasis on dueling. Kit is simply not ready at that point to face Ventress. Perhaps towards the end of the war, his physical and mental mastery might have evolved to the point of being able to go beyond Shii-Cho’s limitations, but this is pure speculation.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 25th 2019, 3:01 am
@O-Siri no response yet again?
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 25th 2019, 1:28 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Vorpal Blade
Maul describes the wound as almost imperceptible, 

...

There's no indication it significantly hampered his combative performance in the fight
The more recent and objective Wrath of Darth Maul says otherwise:

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:But still his leg ached. Earlier, after discovering bantha tracks near the Scitimer he had a brief encounter with Sand People.

...

Still running back to the Scitimer had not been good for his leg.

...

The lightsabers met with a bright flash of energy before Maul landed on his feat in a tight crouch. The pain in his leg was exquisite

...

Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense.
He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side and directed his rage at the Jedi.


and Sith naturally draw strength from pain anyway.

...


Qui-Gon and Maul had comparable augmenation, and Maul himself admits that Qui-Gon matches his strength, his agility, and his speed,

Yes, he did and what happened once he did?

Star Wars Episode I Journal: Darth Maul wrote:This realization sends more rage pumping into my body. I am angry at myself, but I use the anger to fuel the dark side. I feel the Force come from the Jedi and I send it back to him, showing him that I, too, have a connection, and it is stronger than his. I launch a furious counterattack. I feel the Jedi beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him.
Jinn's augmentation was only comparable before Maul started to use his rage more effectively after that Jinn was his decisive inferior. 

And I think the intent of the aggregate is to display that both men are even combatants until Qui-Gon tires out.


The intent of the Journal? No, if you're going by intent, the Journal makes it clear Maul is superior by a wide margin when we get to the epilogue:

Star Wars Episode I Journal: Darth Maul wrote:He made the Jedi run. They had to use everything they knew and more to meet his skill. They went at him, two on one, and they could not defeat him. No doubt Maul used his formidable dark powers to blunt their use of the Force.

If Jinn was meant to be evenly matched until he tired it wouldn't take all they had just to meet his skill. Everyone at this point was fresh. No, a much better case can be made on the basis of intent that the injury was shoehorned in to make the first fight somewhat competitive. 


In the Tatooine duel? Source please, because there's this:
Fair enough I'm mulling it over. That said Maul's agility and dexterity were said to be the reason he was outmaneuvering the both of them on Naboo.


Qui-Gon was aware even in the hangar that Maul was leading them on,

Red herring and irrelevant. 

he was controlling the flow of the fight, hence the term "outmaneuver".

 Congratulations you have basic observational skills. Maul was controlling the flow of the fight, on neutral ground I might add as they were still in the hangar. 



The way you're interpreting that isn't correct, because if he was capable of simply making a fool out of the Jedi consistently, you would wonder why he was "relentlessly" searching for an opening from the Jedi
Because he was going all-out."Relentless" just means he was giving his all and that he's a relentless fighter. That's what Juyo is all about: being relentless and never letting up. I'm not in the camp that thinks Maul was "toying" with them if that's what you were getting at. It's been established that the Jedi can hold their own, but it doesn't change the fact that the pressure was all on them, while Maul was the one at ease and in control during the hangar portion. That he was using all his skills doesn't change the fact he was anticipating their moves and working his way between them with "ease".


or why he "knew" he had to separate the two Jedi in order to win even before the battle took place.
He guessed he needed to. He expected a greater challenge than he got and took preparations. When the fight finally arrived he was disappointed:


The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them.


Let's focus on the Tatooine duel which gives us the best idea of what would happen between Qui-Gon and Maul on neutral ground and fair starting conditions

Actually, the beginning portion of the Naboo duel is the best evidence for how a "fair" duel between Maul and Jinn would play out when both are prepared and fresh and neither were injured. Him getting the better of Jinn and Kenobi when all the circumstances were in their favor is ample evidence he can far exceed his Tatooine performance while uninjured.


Okay, and prove that advantage seriously impacted the two fights.

Slothful induction. I provided evidence Ventress had a knowledge advantage and you are just lazily insisting it wouldn't have an impact. 


That might be because he explored the entire generator complex and planned the fight out in advance in meticulous detail?

He was outfighting them with ease even before they left the hangar. All combatants fresh, two to one, everyone prepared, completely neutral ground.


Then why bring it up?

Because Arkham claimed his performance against Maul was superior to Fisto's with Ventress and he didn't specify which portion. I assumed his final stand because that was easily his best performance.  

 And I've already provided quotes showing Qui-Gon was matching Maul's agility on Tatooine.

An injured Maul. Proof that Jinn can't match uninjured Maul's agility comes from quotes I provided from the Naboo duel.

As to Fisto's agility, I'll give it some more thought, maybe I was a bit hasty. That said Jinn's performance against Maul isn't proof he's better than Fisto, just because Fisto lost to Ventress with circumstances at play. And I still say you can't ignore the wide disparity in the two Kenobi performances.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 25th 2019, 1:34 pm
Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 1076326320
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 27th 2019, 11:49 am
Maul was never at full strength during his battle with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan because some pirates and sandpeople managed to injure him:

"Maul's heart burned with anticipation when his Master instructed him to hunt down two Jedi, Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, on Tatooine and Naboo. Had he not run into Togorian pirates and Sand people along the way, perhaps he would have been at full strength for the final conflict inside the Theed power generator. Instead, after killing Qui-Gon, Darth Maul fatally underestimated the Jedi's Padawan, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Qui-Gon's apprenice cut Maul in half and cast his body into the melting pit. Thus ending his ambitions, and the way was cleared for a new Dark Lord of the Sith." -- The New Essential Guide to Characters wrote:

Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 6626105-maul%20was%20weakened
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on September 27th 2019, 1:42 pm
Yeah Maul got injured by Sand People ... oh wait that never happened, Maul toyed with one, had a standoff with the rest and retreated back to his ship without a fight. Whoever wrote that is an idiot. 

As for the leg injury, it was already nearly healed even before he left Tattoine:


"If I do I have to confess I sustained a leg wound. I do not want to show weakness in front of my Master. And my leg wound is almost healed there is no reason to tell him" - Darth Maul Journal


"If Maul admitted he had sustained a leg wound his Master would regard him as weak. But because his leg wound was already almost healed he questioned whether it was even necessary to inform his Master about it." - The Wrath of Darth Maul 


That last quote was when he was still on Tatooine btw just after he missed his query. A trip from the far end of the mid-rim - Naboo borders the outer-rim -, to the core and then back again would just about healed his wound in any logical universe. 


And the pain from his leg wasn't brought up again at all on Naboo despite being brought up multiple times as a factor on Tatooine. If the injury was relevant both authors would have brought it up - in fact in the Journal Sidious who is for narrative purposes acting as a readers stand-in for Maul's pov dismisses the possibility that the injury hindered him on Naboo, believing him to be at peak capacity. 


Last edited by O-Siri on October 11th 2019, 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 27th 2019, 5:38 pm
@O-Siri wrote:Yeah Maul got injured by Sand People ... oh wait that never happened, Maul toyed with one, had a standoff with the rest and retreated back to his ship without a fight. Whoever wrote that is an idiot. 

As for the leg injury, it was already nearly healed even before he left Tattoine:


"If I do I have to confess I sustained a leg wound. I do not want to show weakness in front of my Master. And my leg wound is almost healed there is no reason to tell him" - Darth Maul Journal


"If Maul admitted he had sustained a leg wound his Master would regard him as weak. But because his leg wound was already almost healed he questioned whether it was even necessary to inform his Master about it." - The Wrath of Darth Maul 


That last quote was when he was still on Tatooine btw just after he missed his query. A trip from the far end of the mid-rim - Naboo borders the outer-rim -, to the core and then back again would just about healed his wound in any logical universe. 


And the pain from his leg wasn't brought up again at all on Naboo despite being brought up multiple times as a factor on Tatooine. If the injury was relevant both authors would have brought it up - in fact in the Journal Sidious who is for narrative purposes acting as a proxy for Maul's pov dismisses the possibility that the injury hindered him on Naboo, believing him to be at peak capacity. 

There’s no need to attack authors. Sidious didn’t even get a look at Maul’s injury, he only heard about it from reading Maul’s journal, and what Maul says about his injury Isn’t gospel because Maul’s an egotistical Sith Lord who is notorious for being an arrogant cunt, so we can easily reconcile the sources without forcing contradictions on the basis that Maul downplayed his injury out of pride. His journal is his personal account and Sidious’s commentary at the end, and Maul literally argues that he’s not evil. And TWODM only states that Maul’s injury was “almost healed,” the key word is “almost,” which doesn’t refute the passage I had just quoted


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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 29th 2019, 10:22 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@O-Siri wrote:Jinn's augmentation was only comparable before Maul started to use his rage more effectively after that Jinn was his decisive inferior.

Can you substantiate that further? Because Maul was drawing on the rage he felt from his leg injury and centering it on amplifying himself before the fight even began:

Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Image0

So he's "calling on his dark powers" and vows not to let his injury slow him down. This is corroborated further:

Sweat beaded on his tattooed forehead. His wounded leg was practically screaming for treatment. But even after he was back inside theÿScimitar, he delayed reaching for a medpac. He worked with the pain, manipulating it, shaping it into desire. He craved revenge against the Jedi. They were the reason he had traveled to Tatooine. If not for their existence, his encounter with the Togorian pirates never would have happened. His desire for vengeance grew like a blanket of darkness around him. Only after he fell consumed by anger did he dress his wound.

Maul grinned. The pain was nothing compared to what he would do to the Jedi.


-The Wrath of Darth Maul

What's more, Maul literally forces himself to run at his usual pace despite "red hot" pain from his leg:

I turn my back to them, but only for an instant. I run straight for the canyon wall. I don't have much distance to cover, so I have to run fast. I feel the tearing wound in my left thigh, but I push it aside. Pain is another annoyance. It will not slow me down.

I run up the sheer wall, calling up the dark side to escape my enemies. My contempt and my anger at the Tusken Raiders help me. I am able to scale the wall despite the pain. With a final burst of strength that sends red agony through my leg, I flip over backward, fly over the surprised upturned faces of the Raiders, and land behind them.

They are so startled they don't react. That gives me a head start. I take off through the canyon, heading back to my ship. My wound troubles me, but now my annoyance is toward myself for feeling it. I force myself to run with my usual strength and speed.


-Darth Maul Journal

In the journal, Maul further describes that his footwork has never been better - which includes the time when he was beating Sidious in sabers - and this is despite the leg wound. We see a shift in Maul's explanations from the Tusken fight to the duel for a reason: Maul is seeking excuses. He's seeking excuses as to why he's not beating Qui-Gon, and he even admits as much when he meditates on the battle afterwards:

At the time he had tried to make excuses for himself, blaming his inability to overpower Qui-Gon on the leg wound he had sustained during his brief capture by Togorian pirates.

-End Game

Note that he's saying specifically that "at the time" of the duel he was blaming his leg wound. So:


  1. Maul was focusing his rage for the oncoming battle well before it happened;
  2. He could run at his usual pace despite the wound causing intense physical pain;
  3. He admits to making an excuse out of his leg during the battle.


Thus, I remain unconvinced that the leg injury had much impact on the duel. It doesn't look good for Maul either, seeing as he spent a lot of time "calling on his dark powers" and focusing his rage on the wound as he was preparing for the fight, whereas Qui-Gon per the official databank was "totally unprepared" for a fight.

---

@O-Siri wrote:The intent of the Journal? No, if you're going by intent, the Journal makes it clear Maul is superior by a wide margin when we get to the epilogue:

Sidious' opinion of his prize apprentice is inferior to what Maul was actutally obvserving during his fight with Qui-Gon, where the Jedi master was matching his strength, getting close to penetrating his guard several times etc.

---

@O-Siri wrote:Congratulations you have basic observational skills. Maul was controlling the flow of the fight, on neutral ground I might add as they were still in the hangar.

He was maneuvering them by leading them to a battleground of his choosing. Again, Qui-Gon was aware of this, but decided to let it happen. Also, you can't have two sides of the stick, in that you can't have Maul just being able to fully outwit the two "with ease", yet also be unable to beat them without separating them.

---

@O-Siri wrote: It's been established that the Jedi can hold their own, but it doesn't change the fact that the pressure was all on them, while Maul was the one at ease and in control during the hangar portion. That he was using all his skills doesn't change the fact he was anticipating their moves and working his way between them with "ease".

Virtually all the quotes about Maul "easily" fending the two off all come from - surprise, surprise - Maul's POV; whereas it's supported heavily that before and during the duel, Maul was actively seeking to separate the two Jedi, as he was unable to kill them both without doing so.

--

@O-Siri wrote:He guessed he needed to. He expected a greater challenge than he got and took preparations. When the fight finally arrived he was disappointed:

Maul's POV, again, is irrelevant. The Vehicles and Starships quote (OOU) says that Maul "knew" Qui-Gon would be difficult to kill with that aid of Obi-Wan. I don't care about Maul's inner saber autism thoughts. It's a fact he couldn't kill the two without separation, that much is evident.

--

@O-Siri wrote:Actually, the beginning portion of the Naboo duel is the best evidence for how a "fair" duel between Maul and Jinn would play out when both are prepared and fresh and neither were injured. Him getting the better of Jinn and Kenobi when all the circumstances were in their favor is ample evidence he can far exceed his Tatooine performance while uninjured.

You can argue semantics all you want about Maul controlling the flow of the battle, but again, he couldn't sustain that indefinitely: he would eventually die if he failed to get the two apart. Thus, he's ultimately inferior to the duo.

--

@O-Siri wrote:Slothful induction. I provided evidence Ventress had a knowledge advantage and you are just lazily insisting it wouldn't have an impact.

Fisto's style is based on being random and unpredictable.

---

Just briefly on Jinn's final attack on Maul, I'm tossing up whether that's a better showing than Tatooine in terms of assessing how both compare in sabers. I don't believe that Jinn was amped in any way from the meditation.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 29th 2019, 6:35 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)



Can you substantiate that further? Because Maul was drawing on the rage he felt from his leg injury and centering it on amplifying himself before the fight even began:

Your source says Maul was tired after his encounter with the sand people, so there you go yet another hinderance Maul has to work around. He "vowed" it wouldn't slow him down, yet it along with his injury did. 

Irrelevant as Maul was still "not at his best". The initial rage didn't completely overcome the injury.


What's more, Maul literally forces himself to run at his usual pace despite "red hot" pain from his leg:

That he has to "force himself" to do something that should be effortless is further proof the wound impeeded him. This would sap him of his mental reserves and concentration if he needs to make a serious conscious effort to do something that should be second nature in normal circumstances. Furthermore, as I pointed out the hard-running "wasn't good for his wound".


In the journal, Maul further describes that his footwork has never been better - which includes the time when he was beating Sidious in sabers - and this is despite the leg wound.

Talk about double-standards. It's all Maul's fallible opinion regardless of authorial intent until something favors Jinn, then it may as well be OOU narration. Either both are correct and Maul despite showing the best footwork he ever had still isn't at his best and slowed down somewhat or neither is usable because it's all his opinion and thus dismissable on all counts. You can't have it both ways. 


Maul is seeking excuses.

...

Note that he's saying specifically that "at the time" of the duel he was blaming his leg wound.

Maul wrote that passage in the Journal after the fact when he had time to mull it all over on his way back to Coruscant, not in real-time. If he had come to the conclusion he was making excuses he wouldn't have written it in his journal. 


He's seeking excuses as to why he's not beating Qui-Gon, and he even admits as much when he meditates on the battle afterwards:

And frankly, this is just his perfectionist attitude seeping in. Objectively he was overpowering Jinn and on the cusp to victory, in all sources despite some initial difficulty. Aside from Sidious practically all of his opponents were easy victories, this is the first Jedi who actually gave him any pause, the rest at best held their own defensively. 


Qui-Gon per the official databank was "totally unprepared" for a fight.

Okay, but if you are going by the databank then you have to acknowledge:


Databank wrote:While Qui-Gon Jinn was escorting the fugitive Queen Amidala from Tatooine to Coruscant, Darth Maul swept down from above, lunging at Qui-Gon from his rocketing Sith speeder. Maul's attack was relentless; he hammered down lightsaber strikes against the accomplished Jedi Master, forcing him back time and again. It was only the timely interception of Qui-Gon by the Queen's Royal Starship that spared him.
That it was a relatively one-sided battle by its account. Not all that competitive. Note the emphasis on "timely interception", going way back to one of my opening points, Jinn was close to death before he was rescued meaning this is evidence have lasted much more than 40 seconds or the time it took for the ship to rescue him.

And let's not overstate Jinn's "unpreparedness" he was as per the deleted scene of him slashing the probe droid and ordering Anakin to run to the ship - hence the reason they are running in the finished cut - alert and on their guard for a sudden attack. And the deleted scene by itself is both G-Canon and at least continuity canon as it is referenced in The Wrath of Darth Maul. It's not like he was caught totally off guard to be clear. It was most likely the fact existence of the Sith and moreover his skills that Jinn was unprepared for. 


Sidious' opinion of his prize apprentice is inferior to what Maul was actutally obvserving during his fight with Qui-Gon, where the Jedi master was matching his strength, getting close to penetrating his guard several times etc.

And Maul as per "intent" isn't at his best, unlike Naboo where Sidious, who is fulling the reader in, believes him to be at the peak of his abilities. 



He was maneuvering them by leading them to a battleground of his choosing.

That's not all, he was also working his way between the Jedi with ease and his agility and dexterity kept them both at bay. 


Again, Qui-Gon was aware of this, but decided to let it happen.

Point to the quote that says Jinn "let" Maul dictate the pace I'll wait. 

Joking aside are you insinuating Jinn could have done something about it? Like maybe go all out and attempt to kill Maul quickly? Oh wait they tried that and he stonewalled their best effort:


TPM Novel wrote:Qui-Gon pressed hard in the beginning, sensing how dangerous this man was, wanting to put an end to the combat quickly

...


So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly discovered that their best efforts were not good enough to achieve an early resolution.

How about waiting for an opening then? Nope, the Sith was too clever to give them one:


TPM Novel wrote:They settled into a pattern then, working as a team against their enemy, waiting for an opening. But the Sith Lord was too smart to give them one, and so the battle had gone on.
All their attempts to seized control of the situation failed utterly and all they could do is hold on defensively and wait for something to happen. 

That Jinn knew Maul was controlling the outcome and could do nothing about only shows how dominate Maul was in that fight and how impotent the Jedi were to take control of the situation. 


Also, you can't have two sides of the stick, in that you can't have Maul just being able to fully outwit the two "with ease", yet also be unable to beat them without separating them.

I already addressed this. Maul thought the Jedi would be more of a challenge than they were. No OOU source says Maul absolutely would have lost, only that he thought he needed a plan, which is supported by End Game but again his misgivings were proven false as The Wrath of Darth Maul, The Script, The Novel, and the Junior Novel demonstrate. The fact that he was comfortably keeping the two Jedi at bay while they needed all their skill just to stay alive, as per OOU sources, supports the notion Maul was wrong and that he was capable of beating the Jedi without separating them.


Maul's POV, again, is irrelevant.

But it is relevant when Maul thinks Jinn is a challenge. Can't have it both ways right?Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 2829155256 Jinn being able to anticipate Maul's moves before even he knows them is completely dependent on Maul's POV. How does Maul know Jinn is anticipating his moves? Can he read Jinn's thoughts? Why is Maul's successfully anticipating all the Jedi's moves with ease suddenly fallible? 

 Maul is willing to admit when the Jedi are a challenge as demonstrated on Tatooine. If the Jedi were superior to him or at least evenly matched enough it was 50/50, The Wrath of Darth Maul wouldn't have had him at ease. When Maul is in trouble he gets frustrated, he never goes into denial and ignores reallity. His pov carries full credibility in this matter.


The bottom line when Maul is legitimately challenged he admits it even when he expected an easy victory. When he doesn't feel he's being challenged we should take it to mean he isn't feeling particularly pressured. 

And for the record it's not just Maul's perspective, I sighted the Junior novel as an OOU source which pretty much says the same thing:


TPM Junior Novel wrote: wrote:The Sith Lord was supple and quick, and he worked his way between the Jedi with confidence and ease, whipping his two-ended lightsaber back and forth between them, more than holding his own against their efforts to bring him down.

Confidence and ease. More than holding his own. Just like The Wrath of Darth Maul. 


but again, he couldn't sustain that indefinitely: he would eventually die if he failed to get the two apart. Thus, he's ultimately inferior to the duo.

Nothing in any of the main novels or the script supports this stance, but if you want to rely on secondary sourcebooks we have Fightsaber which states: 


Fightsaber wrote:''Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's excellent use of Form IV (Ataru)'s acrobatic maneuvers are little more than delaying tactics against the Form VII (Juyo) skills of Darth Maul.''

Implying the Jedi would have broken down first not Maul had they kept at that pace. 


Fisto's style is based on being random and unpredictable.

And Ventress got a chance to analyze it. Even the most unpredictable Vaapad has a fight pattern than can be analyzed and broken down as Grievous demonstrated and even Farfarla tier Jedi can process and seize on new information in a fraction of a second. And it's not just that she knew what to expect, he didn't know what to expect from her. 



I don't believe that Jinn was amped in any way from the meditation.

I don't think the idea Jinn being "amped" really takes anything away from him in any case. The meditation is all his own power and focus, it just required prep. 

He also could just be fighting with more conviction than usual. My main point is that it's not something he does in character and thus unusable unless stipulate.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 30th 2019, 1:41 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@O-Siri wrote:Your source says Maul was tired after his encounter with the sand people, so there you go yet another hinderance Maul has to work around. He "vowed" it wouldn't slow him down, yet it along with his injury did.

So you've failed to prove that Maul wasn't using his rage effectively. Concession accepted.

What you're doing here is only undermining Maul. Sith derive strength from pain, which is exactly what Maul does back at the ship when he delays giving treatment to his leg intentionally, and when he uses that pain on the way to Qui-Gon to "draw on his powers". It's why he refuses to show anything but his usual strength and speed despite feeling intense pain. It's why his footwork had never been better.

---

@O-Siri wrote:Irrelevant as Maul was still "not at his best". The initial rage didn't completely overcome the injury.

The wound had almost healed by the time he headed over for the duel, and he had been compensating for it the entire time by focusing on it to fuel his rage. So the injury proved only a very minor hinderance. Maul, who is a lightsaber perfectionist, sees every little detail as extremely crucial.

---

@O-Siri wrote:That he has to "force himself" to do something that should be effortless is further proof the wound impeeded him. This would sap him of his mental reserves and concentration if he needs to make a serious conscious effort to do something that should be second nature in normal circumstances. Furthermore, as I pointed out the hard-running "wasn't good for his wound".

This is speculative at most, he just treats the pain as something he can dismiss anyway, "I feel the tearing wound in my left thigh, but I push it aside. Pain is another annoyance. It will not slow me down."

---

@O-Siri wrote:Talk about double-standards. It's all Maul's fallible opinion regardless of authorial intent until something favors Jinn, then it may as well be OOU narration. Either both are correct and Maul despite showing the best footwork he ever had still isn't at his best and slowed down somewhat or neither is usable because it's all his opinion and thus dismissable on all counts. You can't have it both ways.

Well no, I never stated he wasn't at his best. In none of the sources does Maul claim he's significantly disadvantaged; to him it's still a slight hinderance that gave Qui-Gon an advantage - but of course he had the advantage of getting the jump on Jinn and leaving him on the backfoot - it evens out really.

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@O-Siri wrote:Maul wrote that passage in the Journal after the fact when he had time to mull it all over on his way back to Coruscant, not in real-time. If he had come to the conclusion he was making excuses he wouldn't have written it in his journal.

In that case, the newer quote overrides the older one, as End Game takes priority in places of contradiction. Thus, Maul acknowledges "at the time" he was using the wound for an excuse as to why he wasn't beating Qui-Gon.

---

@O-Siri wrote:That it was a relatively one-sided battle by its account. Not all that competitive. Note the emphasis on "timely interception", going way back to one of my opening points, Jinn was close to death before he was rescued meaning this is evidence have lasted much more than 40 seconds or the time it took for the ship to rescue him.

You're acting as if this is mutually exclusive with the other accounts of the battle, when it's not. For one, the G-canon script has them both "bashing each other with incredible blows" and "leaping over one another in an incredible display of acrobatics." The adult novelisation notes how they surge back and forth, and End Game states very specifically that the battle had only tipped in Maul's favour as his opponent escaped.

Yes, I am aware of quotes saying Jinn was "nearly killed" and so forth, but these are contradicted by a larger consensus of quotes. Feel free to challenge that, if you must.

@O-Siri wrote:And let's not overstate Jinn's "unpreparedness" he was as per the deleted scene of him slashing the probe droid and ordering Anakin to run to the ship - hence the reason they are running in the finished cut - alert and on their guard for a sudden attack. And the deleted scene by itself is both G-Canon and at least continuity canon as it is referenced in The Wrath of Darth Maul. It's not like he was caught totally off guard to be clear. It was most likely the fact existence of the Sith and moreover his skills that Jinn was unprepared for.

All the probe droid confirmed was that something was watching them. This doesn't mean Qui-Gon wasn't unprepared for a high-intensity lightsaber duel, which is coincidentally what the databank says.

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@O-Siri wrote:And Maul as per "intent" isn't at his best, unlike Naboo where Sidious, who is fulling the reader in, believes him to be at the peak of his abilities.

You're placing a lot of weight on authorial intent here.

---

@O-Siri wrote:I already addressed this. Maul thought the Jedi would be more of a challenge than they were. No OOU source says Maul absolutely would have lost, only that he thought he needed a plan, which is supported by End Game but again his misgivings were proven false as The Wrath of Darth Maul, The Script, The Novel, and the Junior Novel demonstrate. The fact that he was comfortably keeping the two Jedi at bay while they needed all their skill just to stay alive, as per OOU sources, supports the notion Maul was wrong and that he was capable of beating the Jedi without separating them.

For starters, we can just quote various stuff from both sides, for example:

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon parry these swipes, spinning out of reach and forcing Maul to retreat farther into the hangar. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan work perfectly together, keeping the Sith Lord at bay.

-- Star Wars Episode I: 3D

But that's an aside. He needed to separate the two, and this is supported heavily in the source material. For example, this quote states that Maul kicked Obi-Wan in order to separate the two:

The ferocious lightsaber duel travels beyond the hangar into an immense power generator lined with catwalks. Maul tries to separate the Jedi. He kicks Obi-Wan off one of the bridge spans, sending him over the edge to a bridge far below.

-- Star Wars Episode I: 3D

But Darth Maul did not rely on his lightsaber skills alone to win a fight. The Sith also planned an attack very carefully. When he fought Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi on Naboo, Darth Maul tactically separated the two Jedi so that he could destroy them one at a time.

-- Star Wars: Sith Wars

Additionally, Kenobi in two soures says that he sensed Maul knew he was going to lose, and thus separated the two. So, yeah, he was eventually going to lose the duel. There's no evidence to the contrary.

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@O-Siri wrote:Implying the Jedi would have broken down first not Maul had they kept at that pace.

Yeah so, Fightsaber is kinda outdated, and I've already provided solid quotes above.

---

@O-Siri wrote:And Ventress got a chance to analyze it. Even the most unpredictable Vaapad has a fight pattern than can be analyzed and broken down as Grievous demonstrated and even Farfarla tier Jedi can process and seize on new information in a fraction of a second. And it's not just that she knew what to expect, he didn't know what to expect from her.

Grievous has an ability Ventress doesn't have, and Farfalla wasn't watching Bane fight conventional enemies.
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 30th 2019, 5:40 pm
@Vorpal Blade

If I respond later I'll probably only be responding to portions at a time. This has been fun but the constant back and forth and full-length responses are taking too much of my time and mental reserves. Just know that if I only tackle portions it's for time constraint reasons not because I'm ignoring the point.


Last edited by O-Siri on October 11th 2019, 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto  - Page 5 Empty Re: Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

on September 30th 2019, 5:46 pm
Clever excuse I must say. Good job Kilius.
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