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Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan

on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:35 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:@Syndiciate
Seriously I think you're making this overly complicated. Marek is obviously going to divert most of his power towards Sidious because he requires much more power to deal with. Your theory that Marek is going to do something ridiculous like devote most of his energy into killing stormtroopers is...illogical

I think it's far more illogical to suggest that Galen is going to sit down and think to himself: 

"I have exponentially more power than I did just a few seconds ago when I was successfully shielding myself from Sidious's attacks. I guess the reasonable thing to do is lower all my Force defenses so that a stray bolt of Sidious's lightning or my own Force blast can kill me on the off chance that the little bit of extra power that I would spend on shielding myself would be enough to kill Sidious." 

As opposed to: 

"Juno's in danger! I have to focus everything on saving her!" 

But that's just me.
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:37 pm
"I have exponentially more power than I did just a few seconds ago when I was successfully shielding myself from Sidious's attacks. I guess the reasonable thing to do is lower all my Force defenses so that a stray bolt of Sidious's lightning or my own Force blast can kill me on the off chance that the little bit of extra power that I would spend on shielding myself would be enough to kill Sidious."

My response is on the last page, but this is a red herring. There's no active threat that Palpatine could kill him since Marek's killing himself at that moment anyway. And the power that Marek's using to shield himself from Palpatine is obviously not a "little bit of extra power."
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:43 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@Syndiciate

Considering he was being hit by the same energy that was piercing Sidious's Force defenses ( Force lightning powered by both his own and Sidious's desperation ) he should be intimately familiar with the level of power needed to overwhelm his defenses. 

Not at all. 

Marek did as well as he did against Palpatine, in large part, because he physically grabbed onto him, meaning the power that Palpatine unleashed upon Marek channeled back onto Palpatine. Naturally, this would restrict Palpatine's ability to unleash his full potency, unless he wanted to kill himself. Moreover, it's not apparent that Palpatine needed to draw on his full power in the same Marek did anyway -- after all, it's emphasized Marek was "no match" for Palpatine.

So, I don't see how Marek would somehow be "intimately familiar" with the uppermost limits of Palpatine's power. 

Because lowering his Force defenses would allow Sidious's Force lightning or his own blast to kill him instantly. 

Irrelevant, because Marek killed himself as he dropped his Force defenses.

If he's capable of multi-tasking like you're suggesting and was infinitely more powerful then he was when he was already surviving Sidious's desperation fueled attacks, why not maintain the shields, kill Vader and the stormtroopers, and then refocus on attacking Sidious after he'd dealt with the threat to Juno and the Rebels?

But if he has infinitely more powerful available to him then when he was defending himself against Sidious's desperation fueled attacks, why would he kill himself in an all out attack rather then simply use the same portion of power he was using in his base state to shield himself and the rest of the power he gained from Oneness to destroy Vader and the stormtroopers?

Marek's "infinitely more powerful" because he drew on "all of the power of the Force within him" to do a kamikaze attack -- a move that, by its very nature, would kill him. Marek cannot simultaneously be "infinitely more powerful" without dying -- they are intrinsically linked.

1. Why would Galen physically latching onto Sidious preclude him from being able to sense the power being used by Sidious on himself and the power he himself is using on Sidious? 

2. It's stated that Galen was "ultimately" no match for Sidious. meaning that "in the end" he was unable to match him. This only suggests that he was not his equal. Nowhere does it suggest the level of disparity between Galen and Sidious and considering Sidious was driven to desperation by Galen's assault I'd say the disparity is not large at all. 

3. Why does that make what he did irrelevant? The point is that him doing that in the first place is indicative of one of the three possibilities I raised earlier. 

4. Are you suggesting that Galen only entered a Oneness state in the first place because he gathered all his power to himself?
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Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan

on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:46 pm
@Syndiciate wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:@Syndiciate
Seriously I think you're making this overly complicated. Marek is obviously going to divert most of his power towards Sidious because he requires much more power to deal with. Your theory that Marek is going to do something ridiculous like devote most of his energy into killing stormtroopers is...illogical

I think it's far more illogical to suggest that Galen is going to sit down and think to himself: 

"I have exponentially more power than I did just a few seconds ago when I was successfully shielding myself from Sidious's attacks. I guess the reasonable thing to do is lower all my Force defenses so that a stray bolt of Sidious's lightning or my own Force blast can kill me on the off chance that the little bit of extra power that I would spend on shielding myself would be enough to kill Sidious." 

As opposed to: 

"Juno's in danger! I have to focus everything on saving her!" 

But that's just me.
Or...... Marek sees that Juno is in danger from stromtroopers and also sees the threat in Darth Sidious. He easily recognizes that Sidious is much more powerful than the stormtroopers and as a result focuses his power towards Sidious. Much more likely
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Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan

on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:48 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
"I have exponentially more power than I did just a few seconds ago when I was successfully shielding myself from Sidious's attacks. I guess the reasonable thing to do is lower all my Force defenses so that a stray bolt of Sidious's lightning or my own Force blast can kill me on the off chance that the little bit of extra power that I would spend on shielding myself would be enough to kill Sidious."

My response is on the last page, but this is a red herring. There's no active threat that Palpatine could kill him since Marek's killing himself at that moment anyway. And the power that Marek's using to shield himself from Palpatine is obviously not a "little bit of extra power."

This wasn't even a response to you but rather "KingofBlades." Regardless, the point is that the blast wouldn't have killed him if Marek had maintained his Force defenses. I would say the power that Marek was using to shield himself prior would have been insignificant considering in his Oneness state the power he wielded made "his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child."
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Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan

on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:50 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@Syndiciate wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:@Syndiciate
Seriously I think you're making this overly complicated. Marek is obviously going to divert most of his power towards Sidious because he requires much more power to deal with. Your theory that Marek is going to do something ridiculous like devote most of his energy into killing stormtroopers is...illogical

I think it's far more illogical to suggest that Galen is going to sit down and think to himself: 

"I have exponentially more power than I did just a few seconds ago when I was successfully shielding myself from Sidious's attacks. I guess the reasonable thing to do is lower all my Force defenses so that a stray bolt of Sidious's lightning or my own Force blast can kill me on the off chance that the little bit of extra power that I would spend on shielding myself would be enough to kill Sidious." 

As opposed to: 

"Juno's in danger! I have to focus everything on saving her!" 

But that's just me.
Or...... Marek sees that Juno is in danger from stromtroopers and also sees the threat in Darth Sidious. He easily recognizes that Sidious is much more powerful than the stormtroopers and as a result focuses his power towards Sidious. Much more likely

Then my question remains, if Marek is thinking about this logically, why would he lower his defenses?
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Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan

on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:53 pm
@Syndiciate wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
@Syndiciate wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:@Syndiciate
Seriously I think you're making this overly complicated. Marek is obviously going to divert most of his power towards Sidious because he requires much more power to deal with. Your theory that Marek is going to do something ridiculous like devote most of his energy into killing stormtroopers is...illogical

I think it's far more illogical to suggest that Galen is going to sit down and think to himself: 

"I have exponentially more power than I did just a few seconds ago when I was successfully shielding myself from Sidious's attacks. I guess the reasonable thing to do is lower all my Force defenses so that a stray bolt of Sidious's lightning or my own Force blast can kill me on the off chance that the little bit of extra power that I would spend on shielding myself would be enough to kill Sidious." 

As opposed to: 

"Juno's in danger! I have to focus everything on saving her!" 

But that's just me.
Or...... Marek sees that Juno is in danger from stromtroopers and also sees the threat in Darth Sidious. He easily recognizes that Sidious is much more powerful than the stormtroopers and as a result focuses his power towards Sidious. Much more likely

Then again, if Marek is thinking about this logically, why would he lower his defenses?
My scenario while logical, isn't built upon it. The ability to distinguish which threats are greater is something we have instinctively. Its apart of out fight or flight response.
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:54 pm
1. Why would Galen physically latching onto Sidious preclude him from being able to sense the power being used by Sidious on himself and the power he himself is using on Sidious?

It doesn't. But it does preclude the idea of knowing the full extent of Palpatine's power if Palpatine's now unable to use his full power, which he is.

You're assuming Palpatine had used his full power prior to the clutching, but there's absolutely no reason to assume that. 

2. It's stated that Galen was "ultimately" no match for Sidious. meaning that "in the end" he was unable to match him. This only suggests that he was not his equal. Nowhere does it suggest the level of disparity between Galen and Sidious and considering Sidious was driven to desperation by Galen's assault I'd say the disparity is not large at all.

Yes, Marek wasn't on Palpatine's level. I don't see why Palpatine needed to draw on his full power then. Moreover, Palpatine became desperate because Marek grabbed onto him, causing Palpatine's own powers to harm him. That doesn't necessarily speak to the power-relationship between Palpatine and Marek.

3. Why does that make what he did irrelevant? The point is that him doing that in the first place is indicative of one of the three possibilities I raised earlier.

How so? My understanding is that you're arguing Marek wasn't thinking logically because he dropped his Force defenses. If true, then you're not getting that Marek's devoting "all" his power into the attack. Marek's able to do that without threat from Palpatine because he kills himself as he drops his Force defenses. 

Edit: And even if there's some delay, I don't see how Palpatine's Force lightning could just stop-dead Marek in the act of glowing and readying to explode.

4. Are you suggesting that Galen only entered a Oneness state in the first place because he gathered all his power to himself?

Yes. Marek drew on every iota of his power and blew himself up.


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:18 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan

on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:08 pm
Syn's stamina is reaching unnerving levels tbh.
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:08 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@Syndiciate wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
@Syndiciate wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:@Syndiciate
Seriously I think you're making this overly complicated. Marek is obviously going to divert most of his power towards Sidious because he requires much more power to deal with. Your theory that Marek is going to do something ridiculous like devote most of his energy into killing stormtroopers is...illogical

I think it's far more illogical to suggest that Galen is going to sit down and think to himself: 

"I have exponentially more power than I did just a few seconds ago when I was successfully shielding myself from Sidious's attacks. I guess the reasonable thing to do is lower all my Force defenses so that a stray bolt of Sidious's lightning or my own Force blast can kill me on the off chance that the little bit of extra power that I would spend on shielding myself would be enough to kill Sidious." 

As opposed to: 

"Juno's in danger! I have to focus everything on saving her!" 

But that's just me.
Or...... Marek sees that Juno is in danger from stromtroopers and also sees the threat in Darth Sidious. He easily recognizes that Sidious is much more powerful than the stormtroopers and as a result focuses his power towards Sidious. Much more likely

Then again, if Marek is thinking about this logically, why would he lower his defenses?
My scenario while logical, isn't built upon it. The ability to distinguish which threats are greater is something we have instinctively. Its apart of out fight or flight response.

Your scenario ISN'T logical, that's my point. If Galen was being logical he would have maintained his Force shield and used his remaining energy to deal with the threat to the people he was trying to protect.

What are you even trying to say here? That Galen instinctually used more energy in the direction of the blast that was moving towards Sidious because he thought he was the greater threat? The point of what he was doing was that he wasn't thinking about defeating Sidious at all in that moment. His sole focus was on saving Juno and the Rebels. That's why he didn't bother to defend himself despite having more than enough power to in that moment.
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:13 pm
Lol. We can instinctively decide who is a greater threat. It doesn't take a lot of thought  to put more effort into one foe than another. Marek recognizing Sidious as the greater threat and responding accordingly doesn't require Marek overly thinking and analyzing the situation like you say he would have to.
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Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan

on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:18 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
1. Why would Galen physically latching onto Sidious preclude him from being able to sense the power being used by Sidious on himself and the power he himself is using on Sidious?

It doesn't. But it does preclude the idea of knowing the full extent of Palpatine's power if Palpatine's now unable to use his full power, which he is.

You're assuming Palpatine had used his full power prior to the clutching, but there's absolutely no reason to assume that. 

2. It's stated that Galen was "ultimately" no match for Sidious. meaning that "in the end" he was unable to match him. This only suggests that he was not his equal. Nowhere does it suggest the level of disparity between Galen and Sidious and considering Sidious was driven to desperation by Galen's assault I'd say the disparity is not large at all.

Yes, Marek wasn't on Palpatine's level. I don't see why Palpatine needed to draw on his full power then. Moreover, Palpatine became desperate because Marek grabbed onto him, causing Palpatine's own powers to harm him. That doesn't necessarily speak to the power-relationship between Palpatine and Marek.

3. Why does that make what he did irrelevant? The point is that him doing that in the first place is indicative of one of the three possibilities I raised earlier.

How so? My understanding is that you're arguing Marek wasn't thinking logically because he dropped his Force defenses. If true, then you're not getting that Marek's devoting "all" his power into the attack. Marek's able to do that without threat from Palpatine because he kills himself as he drops his Force defenses. 

4. Are you suggesting that Galen only entered a Oneness state in the first place because he gathered all his power to himself?

Yes. Marek drew on every iota of his power and blew himself up.

1. I'm assuming Palpatine would have done everything in his power to prevent the Force lightning that he and Galen were generating from piercing his Force defenses.

2. Because if you're facing somebody who is nearly your equal, you're not going to hold back for fear that doing so would give them the advantage they need to overwhelm you. If the lightning generated by the both of them was powerful enough to pierce Sidious's defenses but NOT to overwhelm Galen then that means that lightning powerful enough to breach Sidious's defenses is not enough to put Galen down. 

3. I never argued that Galen wasn't using all his power for the attack. Only that him doing so means that he wasn't thinking logically and that, as a result, the argument that he was logically distributing different levels of energy in different directions doesn't hold. 

4. Based on what? We know he used all his power in the blast, sure but what is there to suggest that he entered a Oneness state BECAUSE he gathered all his power for a single action rather then the emotional state he was put in at seeing Juno in danger?
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:26 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Lol. We can instinctively decide who is a greater threat. It doesn't take a lot of thought  to put more effort into one foe than another. Marek recognizing Sidious as the greater threat and responding accordingly doesn't require Marek overly thinking and analyzing the situation like you say he would have to.

Of course, but that's besides the point. Galen and Sidious were already fighting prior to this point. He understands that Sidious is the bigger threat. And DESPITE that he immediately disregards Sidious and focuses on Vader and the stormtroopers when he realizes they're threatening Juno. That's because his focus has shifted from fighting Sidious to protecting Juno at all costs. That's why, despite it making more sense to simply shield himself and send a blast towards Vader and the stormtroopers that would destroy them, he instead lowers his defenses and puts everything he has into destroying the threat to Juno. His instinct is to protect her by destroying whatever it is that's actively threatening her. That's why your suggestion that his instinct would be to consciously divide his energy differently based on the power level of his various enemies doesn't make any sense. He has to consciously THINK about something like that to use the Force in the manner you're suggesting. Something he clearly isn't doing since he left himself defenseless in order to deal with the immediate threat to Juno's life.


Last edited by Syndiciate on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Empty Re: Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan

on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:32 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Syn's stamina is reaching unnerving levels tbh.

My stamina has run out for the night. Considering I'll be at the zoo all day tomorrow, you guys will have to wait until tomorrow evening for any more responses. :>
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:37 pm
1. I'm assuming Palpatine would have done everything in his power to prevent the Force lightning that he and Galen were generating from piercing his Force defenses.

Why? 

A.) Palpatine was explicitly aroused (i.e. "lascivious pain") by his Force clash. That doesn't seem like someone who is "doing everything in his power" to escape his predicament. Palpatine may be a masochist but he's not suicidal -- he's visibly frightened (and certainly not aroused) whenever he's genuinely threatened, as shown at the end vs Yoda or being hurled down the reactor shaft. If he's enjoying the pain vs Marek, then that suggests he still has some cards up his sleeve.

B.) It's unknown if a Force barrier would stop the lightning conduit given Marek physically clutched Palpatine.

C.) It's unknown if Palpatine had up or had devoted much of his power to his Force barrier prior to Marek grabbing him. Is it even known if Palpatine could simultaneously fire lightning while a wall of energy surrounded him? Wouldn't that break his own barrier? Recall Bane's lightning vs Worror's bubble. 

2. Because if you're facing somebody who is nearly your equal, you're not going to hold back for fear that doing so would give them the advantage they need to overwhelm you.

That works only if Palpatine and Marek were near-equals. 

If the lightning generated by the both of them was powerful enough to pierce Sidious's defenses but NOT to overwhelm Galen then that means that lightning powerful enough to breach Sidious's defenses is not enough to put Galen down. 

The attack clearly overwhelmed Marek to the point he almost blacked out and persevered through sheer force of will, which is a much greater effect than Palpatine being aroused. Moreover, Palpatine used a Force barrier (if even) whereas Marek used tutaminis, with the former being less effective against  lightning than the latter.

3. I never argued that Galen wasn't using all his power for the attack. Only that him doing so means that he wasn't thinking logically and that, as a result, the argument that he was logically distributing different levels of energy in different directions doesn't hold. 

And I'm disputing your idea that doing so means that he wasn't thinking logically.

4. Based on what? We know he used all his power in the blast, sure but what is there to suggest that he entered a Oneness state BECAUSE he gathered all his power for a single action rather then the emotional state he was put in at seeing Juno in danger?

Because "Oneness" is the largely fanon term that we use to describe Force users drawing on so much power their cells burst and their skin glows, e.g. Luke Skywalker, Anakin Solo, etc. It follows this was induced by Marek drawing on "all of the power of the Force within him" to immediately save Juno.

---

We know for a fact Marek unleashed his full potency, ergo the TCSWE quote. That energy had to go somewhere. Let's look at the options:

A.) The Rogue Shadow. Yet you emphasize how Marek wouldn't want to potentially kill Juno, so the bulk of his power heading that way is a no-no.

B.) A random wall. Maybe -- but I think there's a better choice.

C.) The evil Emperor. And that's easy considering Palpatine's attached to him. What's left can kill the stormtroopers without threatening the Jade Shadow.
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:47 pm
And on that last point, it's not even that Marek's aiming his energy a certain way. He's just concentrating the bulk of it in his immediate vicinity.

Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Marek10

It would seem the only way to not have this POV if you think Marek deliberately aimed the power away from Palpatine to look like this:

Galen and Vaylin vs Outlander and Revan - Page 3 Marek11

But not only would that be far harder to do, it would also put Juno in far more danger than otherwise, as highlighted in my prior post.


Last edited by Suspect Insight on Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:31 pm
@KingofBlades The logical explanation for why Marek can rival Sidious conventionally yet the latter can tank his oneness blast was provided by Az in his debate with Ant:

Darth Sidious, the most powerful of Bane’s lineage, attained his full potential upon killing his Master, as indicated by the fact that his mortal vessel almost burst from the power contained within, and he feared his individuality might be completely subsumed into that power (link ). Further, during his fight with Mace Windu, Sidious channeled such intense power through his Force lightning that it ravaged his mortal frame due to his midi-chlorians being unable to contain that much Force energy (link ). His biological Force potential had reached its limit, and so he turned his gaze toward the discorporate and was over time becoming less and less constrained by his physical body (link ). Luke even noted that the Emperor was “more energy than flesh” even before Dark Empire, and we see this in his fight with Galen Marek, where the latter was able to rival him in a conventional Force lightning battle and cause damage, yet when the Emperor drew on deeper reserves of power, he was able to tank an attack that ripped Marek’s body apart and sent his cells into shock, denoting he had surpassed Marek’s conventional Force potential and thus his own as well (link ).
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:48 pm
Team 2 in a great fight. The Outlander is the MVP here and can take either of team 1 while Revan can take Galen.
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:56 pm
I don't even think Galen can rival the Emperor conventially anymore. The entire fight in the novelization takes place from Galen's POV, and mere moments prior, the Emperor had pretended to be far weaker and more frail than he actually was. Galen has no way to ascertain the true depths of the Emperor's power, so the "desperation" point is moot - it only serves to convey Galen was exerting himself to the limit, not the Emperor.

On the other hand, we have a clear, out-of-universe statement saying Galen sacrificed himself specifically because he was "no match" for the Emperor, referring to the lightning lock. Two other statements reiterate that Galen was "ultimately no match" for the Emperor, after which he poured "all the power of the Force within him" into the blast, which likewise failed to do anything to the Emperor.

We also have the Yoda comparison from TFU II. Starkiller is overwhelmed by the Cave of Evil and desperately seeks to get out of there. Yoda, on the other hand, is casually sitting by its entrance, which utterly baffles Starkiller. Yoda's far superior willpower translates to greater Force power, and here he's even weaker than he was in Revenge of the Sith. The reverse is arguably true for Starkiller: he may be even stronger than he was in the first game, yet is still far beneath Yoda.

Galen is nothing compared to Palpatine.
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:00 pm
@Azronger While I agree with the rest of your post the Yoda comparison is likely a result of Starkiller's messed up psyche more than anything tbh.
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:45 pm
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@Azronger While I agree with the rest of your post the Yoda comparison is likely a result of Starkiller's messed up psyche more than anything tbh.

Elaborate. Luke had a vision in Heir to the Empire even after he had already visited the Cave once, and he's perfectly stable and sane.
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on Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:52 pm
Have you abandoned the premise that Vader is comparable to Palpatine Az?
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on Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:09 am
Yes, months ago.
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on Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:28 am
Revan and Gaylander win
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on Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:40 pm
@Azronger wrote:I don't even think Galen can rival the Emperor conventially anymore. The entire fight in the novelization takes place from Galen's POV, and mere moments prior, the Emperor had pretended to be far weaker and more frail than he actually was. Galen has no way to ascertain the true depths of the Emperor's power, so the "desperation" point is moot - it only serves to convey Galen was exerting himself to the limit, not the Emperor.

On the other hand, we have a clear, out-of-universe statement saying Galen sacrificed himself specifically because he was "no match" for the Emperor, referring to the lightning lock. Two other statements reiterate that Galen was "ultimately no match" for the Emperor, after which he poured "all the power of the Force within him" into the blast, which likewise failed to do anything to the Emperor.

We also have the Yoda comparison from TFU II. Starkiller is overwhelmed by the Cave of Evil and desperately seeks to get out of there. Yoda, on the other hand, is casually sitting by its entrance, which utterly baffles Starkiller. Yoda's far superior willpower translates to greater Force power, and here he's even weaker than he was in Revenge of the Sith. The reverse is arguably true for Starkiller: he may be even stronger than he was in the first game, yet is still far beneath Yoda.

Galen is nothing compared to Palpatine.
Guessing that last paragraph is citing the novel?
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